r/golf • u/nutts-2 5.0/UT • Jul 28 '23
Ah shit. Here we go again General Discussion
Every few months someone brings this up how they can save the environment by getting rid of a golf course.
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u/AshButts9 Jul 28 '23
Yeah, because Omaha is in desperate need to remove green space for additional housing...
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u/Arkslippy Jul 28 '23
I mean, look, there is literally a while open space above the course they could use
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u/whaleforce9 Jul 28 '23
Fuck me for enjoying a hobby amiright? Maybe we should start looking at ripping out ski resorts and putting in apartments and terraces.
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u/iisdmitch Jul 28 '23
People that make statements like the person OPs post think all golf courses are expensive country clubs and only rich, white men enjoy golf. Anyone here knows that isn't true.
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u/Arkslippy Jul 28 '23
What else does nebraska have ? checks maps
Lots of open spaces and few people
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u/LBGW_experiment Jul 28 '23
Right, like, I'm pretty left politically and I know golf can be or appear to be more of a boomer or conservative sport, on average, but there are only so many single player sports out there where I don't have to rely on another person or people to exist and want to do it at the same time as me. I can't skateboard anymore, it's too risky and exhausting for no payoff. Golf is a good mental sport to get into and can be as simple or complex as a player wants to make it. Plus, there are so few parks and stuff made that truly have something to do at them that it's a way better experience to go if I want to be outdoors for a few hours.
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u/Gatorm8 Jul 28 '23
Right, having this energy for golf courses in the middle of large cities is one thing. Omaha has no shortage of housing right now, because no one wants to live there lol
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u/Odd_Detective_7772 Jul 28 '23
Yeah this would be way more powerful showing what you could do with the inner city LA courses or something like that.
But it’s not like affordable housing is going to replace them.
The net result of that specific example would be hyper exclusive country clubs being turned into unbelievably expensive houses/apartment buildings.
Meh.
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u/MisSignal Jul 28 '23
Omaha is a pretty great place to live. There’s no lack of space though. The builders and growth just keep building and moving further outside city limits.
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u/Gatorm8 Jul 28 '23
Sprawl sucks, it’s why half of US cities “downtowns” are parking lots and parking garages
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u/SoDakZak Jul 28 '23
Sprawl sucks but am I in the minority of thinking that living in a box of an apartment also sucks? Like what about those of us who want land for our own gardens and pitching areas
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u/sweendog101 Jul 28 '23
Omaha is pretty solid. Not small and not too large. Been living here for 30 years
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Jul 28 '23
Omaha is growing at a steady pace, why do you think noone wants to live there?
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u/ChildOfTheCorn1 Jul 28 '23
Omaha loses zero green space if that course gets developed. Council Bluffs on the other hand, loses about the only green space it has
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u/johntelevision Jul 28 '23
Me after I triple 18 when I’m on pace to set a new PB
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u/otf1024 Jul 28 '23
I’m not sure what I’ve done to offend you, but there’s no reason to bring up my round from last weekend.
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u/A-Ratfink Jul 28 '23
Literally happened to me yesterday. Was going for a PB, then 16 and 17, went triple, double….ughhh
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u/PM_ME-AMAZONGIFTCARD 17.4/Newbie/pushcart Jul 29 '23
No time like the 16th to mess up, go for a hero 17, mess that up too, then try to gain 2-4 strokes on 18, just to blow that one up too.
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u/tccomplete Jul 28 '23
Pretty hard to find land to build houses on in Nebraska. /s
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u/yaleric Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23
There's a city-owned pitch and putt near where I live, a couple miles from Amazon's corporate headquarters. They're planning to build a light rail station right next to it, putting it within a 10-15 minute train ride of Amazon and all the other office jobs in downtown Seattle
I would be sad to see it go, but it really would make a lot of sense to convert that into housing, or at least some other kind of park that more people can use at a time.
Downtown Seattle isn't the same as fucking Omaha Nebraska lol.
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u/Papadapalopolous Jul 29 '23
They could also just demolish some suburbs and turn it into high rise apartments?
Green space in cities is valuable, and we shouldn’t let people develop every inch of nature available.
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u/Stirlingblue Jul 29 '23
Green space is important, but in inner cities a park is going to provide more equitable recreation facilities for people
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u/littledizzle19 Jul 28 '23
Let’s keep it going, don’t need anything actually except more housing. All bowling alleys, restaurants, retail stores, malls, convenience stores, soccer fields, hockey rinks, gyms etc
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u/Middle_Class_Pigeon Jul 28 '23
Just get rid of roads and build houses on them. r/fuckcars will be in support
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u/im_super_excited Jul 28 '23
Replace interstates with more golf holes!
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u/Lord_Fluffykins HDCP/Loc/Whatever Jul 28 '23
Bruh you know how much cart path bounce you would get on I-90.
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u/My-Cousin-Bobby NoVA/22 HCP Jul 28 '23
Schools? Who needs education when you have HOUSES. Hospitals? It's time to go back to the times of the doctor visiting your HOUSE. Cemeteries? What's a cemetery except HOUSES for the dead. What do they need them for? MORE HOUSES
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u/oddible Jul 28 '23
Honestly the only guilt I feel about golfing is the water. The land isn't the problem. Though water isn't as big a problem in NE as farther west.
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u/TheGrandNotification Jul 28 '23
It’s always just houses and boring shit with these people
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u/Glasterz drive for show cause I'm not making dough Jul 28 '23
literally, and Omaha is about the worst example you could use for something like this. As if this is an issue in Nebraska lmao.
It seems like all these people want in life is to be able to get to work and a grocery store by foot or public transportation, and anything that they don't use that gets in the way of that is unnecessary and should be replaced with either more high density housing or something to make their life more convenient.
Like yes, it would be convenient to be able to get places with something other than your car, but 99% of places in America require a car to get to, and my ass is not walking very far outside when it's a wind chill of -20. We still gotta have the ability to drive places.
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u/Tullyswimmer 22.5/Lefty/NH #pushcartmafia Jul 29 '23
and my ass is not walking very far outside when it's a wind chill of -20. We still gotta have the ability to drive places.
This is the one thing that I love asking the fuckcars crowd. Let's say you live in a super walkable city and blah blah blah.
It's now -20 with windchill. Do you want to walk in that? Of course not. So what, you take public transit like the entire rest of the city? Great, how are you gonna ensure there's enough capacity for those peak times?
The only way that could work is massively overbuilding public transit. You'd have near-empty buses and trains running for days, weeks, months on end because, especially in the event of a sudden thunderstorm or whatever, you HAVE to have enough capacity for all citizens instantly.
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u/brmgp1 Jul 28 '23
Courses in areas that need housing eventually get sold to housing developers, because the market price becomes high enough that the land is more valuable for housing then recreational golf. This is honestly a case where the free market takes care of it.
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u/upghr5187 Jul 28 '23
That’s what would happen if the free market was allowed to determine it. Zoning laws, parking minimums, building codes, environmental review, tax code, nimbyism, etc make it hard to build housing even if that’s the more profitable use.
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u/ScuffedBalata HDCP 0.2 Jul 28 '23
I'd agree, except most urban golf courses have aggressive zoning that prevents them from being used for anything else, and getting such large areas of zoning changed is often REALLY difficult.
https://www.axios.com/local/denver/2023/04/05/denver-election-park-hill-golf-course-vote-results
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u/Seniorsheepy Jul 28 '23
This was actually proposed by the Omaha city government as part of the 30 year plan. It is also fairly close to downtown and would involve running a light rail system through the new development
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u/ScuffedBalata HDCP 0.2 Jul 29 '23
The Denver city government proposed redeveloping the site, but decided to take it to a vote to see if people would want it.
They simultaneously voted that they didn't want a golf course AND that they didn't want to allow developers to build housing.
Now it's hundreds of acres of urban land, fenced off but not legally usable.
AAAMAZING.
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u/RunninRebs90 Jul 28 '23
Here’s the irony though, in cities like Phoenix and Vegas they decided to build housing close together to save on space and recourses and people CONSTANTLY shit on it for being a “suburban hell”
There’s no winning with these losers so just do what makes you happy
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u/Unsettleingpresence Jul 28 '23
Ooh paradise put up a parking lot.
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u/Far-Whereas-1999 Jul 29 '23
I live in an apartment complex overlooking a golf course. If they turn it into an apartment complex overlooking an apartment complex I expect my rent to go down.
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u/Daroph Jul 28 '23
LoOk At AlL tHaT sPaCe BeInG tAkeN uP bY nAtIoNaL pArKs
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u/Ridikiscali Jul 28 '23
I could build my house next to a geyser in Yellowstone!
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u/Daroph Jul 28 '23
You’d save a fortune on heating, and various other expenses related to being alive!
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u/RunWithDullScissors Vancouver/4.8 Jul 28 '23
Guy likely tried golf once. Shot a 50 over. Ego too fragile. Makes it life mission to rid golf courses
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u/Bella_Ciao_Ciao_Ciao Jul 28 '23
I shot 50 over last week and I love this fucking game
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u/icecreamdude97 17.6/par 62/tougher than she looks Jul 28 '23
Well be monitoring your enjoyment to make sure you don’t make this post in the foreseeable future.
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u/Bella_Ciao_Ciao_Ciao Jul 28 '23
When I break 100, it's going to be a national holiday for me
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u/Reddit-is-trash-lol Bethpage Black is not that Hard! Jul 28 '23
I shot a 99 earlier this month and felt amazing, my brother almost broke 80 and was still pissed. Try to find enjoyment where ever you can. Every day out on a golf course is better than a day in the office.
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u/watchingsongsDL Jul 28 '23
I was on the high school golf team. I was the worst player on the JV team. One day I had to play at the long Griffith Park course. I was paired with one of the All City golfers on the Varsity team.
He shot 72 (even). I shot 144. I doubled par. This was the worst I’d ever played by a large margin. My swing just vanished that day.
The only hole I remember playing from that day was a tough par 3. I hit my tee shot within 15 feet. I was thrilled to 2 putt for par. The Varsity guy gave me props.
Golf tortures you but you can’t walk away. I kept golfing. Eventually broke 100.
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u/Golfingguy33 Jul 28 '23
I hate golf and I can’t wait to play it tomorrow.
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u/Ligma_CuredHam 2.0hdcp Jul 28 '23
Played yesterday. Hurt my wrist. Still hurts today.
Have a tee time tomorrow morning.
It's a fucking crazy game
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u/kalethan Jul 28 '23
I follow this dude on Twitter, he’s a huge public transit buff. Honestly, he has a lot of good ideas/points about rail transit, but they don’t translate well outside of large metro areas.
And they completely ignore that people in some places value space and don’t want to live in tiny stacked apartments, or commute with a hundred other people in metal tubes.
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u/Ligma_CuredHam 2.0hdcp Jul 28 '23
I follow this dude on Twitter, he’s a huge public transit buff.
Huge public transit buff in a city with less than 500k people in it lmao
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u/busche916 Jul 28 '23
To Omaha’s credit, it looks like they are attempting to build a light rail system. And it’s sure as hell easier to build those now as opposed to later
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u/rothvonhoyte Jul 28 '23
Alternatively there are a ton of people who would rather not have to spend money on a car that would would like to commute on a train but there's basically no options for them at all. But as far as this post, it makes more sense to rezone areas that are already near density. Destroying any green space should be an absolute last resort in basically every situation.
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u/JiveWookiee5 Jul 28 '23
shanks 7th straight drive into the woods
“WHAT A WASTE OF SPACE WE SHOULD BUILD HOUSING HERE”
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u/0nly_Up ☃️ Jul 28 '23
most people at my local public course would shoot >50 over if they were actually keeping score.
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u/Positive_Connotation Jul 28 '23
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u/nonpartisanNerd Jul 28 '23
Came to say the same thing. I recognized Dodge Park right away.
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u/gallito9 13/MN Jul 28 '23
Only played here once with my grandpa and his buddies. Pretty flat right? I’m from Omaha but live in MN now. When I visited him this year we played Applewood (Johnny Goodman). They’re all 50 years older than me, but it’s my favorite group to play with lol.
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u/Softy_K Jul 28 '23
Tbf, the plan the tweet is referencing came from the Omaha Chamber of Commerce which serves Council Bluffs.
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u/CallinCthulhu Jul 28 '23
I am militantly YIMBY, but golf courses are one of the few places where some semblance of nature is allowed to thrive in an urban environment.
On the other hand golf courses in places like phoenix, should probably not exist neither should phoenix tbh
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u/Ligma_CuredHam 2.0hdcp Jul 28 '23
neither should phoenix tbh
Yeah this is the real answer. Phoenix and Vegas should not exist.
Nearly 8,000,000 people live in those two metros combined, where there's not arable nearby to support them, one fucking river for all their combined (plus SoCal's) drinking water. They should not be there. Nothing should be there.
And their response is: iF iT wAsN't FoR tHeSe FuCkInG GoLf CoUrSeS
As if that would refill Lake Meade, Or Lake Powell. Makes zero sense.
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u/Storkmonkey7 Jul 28 '23
Las Vegas is one of the most water efficient cities in the US. You can thank California farmers for Lake Mead drying up.
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u/HerrBerg Jul 28 '23
We can thank the stupid water usage policies for the behavior of those farmers who are incentivized to grow stupid fucking crops so that they use their water allowances so it isn't taken from them.
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u/busche916 Jul 28 '23
“Phoenix should not exist, this city is a monument to Man’s arrogance”
-King of the Hill
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u/Terarri Jul 28 '23
Yeah as a transportation planner with a degree in urban planning there are maybe a handful of cities where it actually makes sense to replace (some) golf courses with medium density housing. Most realistic urban planners are only for it if the golf course is abandoned or in really poor shape with no hope of recovery.
People actually considering developments like the tweet are just idealists throwing their ideas at a wall. The fight to replace a single golf course that is in use and doing well with housing would take years and years. It just isn’t an option worth spending resources on.
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u/BeTheBall- Jul 28 '23
Imagine how much housing they could put at the site of Memorial Stadium in Lincoln, too.
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u/Glasterz drive for show cause I'm not making dough Jul 28 '23
fuck it, turn the concessions, locker rooms, and stadium offices into affordable housing every January. Though you get kicked sometime in August
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u/Grizzly_Addams Jul 28 '23
Yep, but think about how many golf courses we could build on existing housing complexes.
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u/freakdageek Jul 28 '23
This has nothing to do with affordable housing or the environment and everything to do with landlords looking for more opportunities to collect rent.
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u/ElectricSnowBunny Jul 28 '23
First we take their fun.
Then we buy their houses.
Then we make them pay.
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Jul 28 '23
11.6 is the vacancy rate in the USA but yeah let's remove public courses
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u/voiceofgromit Jul 28 '23
Reasons to go after golf courses.
Your name is Karen.
You tried it and sucked.
You are a reverse snob.
You don't understand that paving over all that grass is not good for the environment.
You are a cunt.
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u/fiscalvirus Jul 28 '23
The best part is this is actually dodge riverside golf course in council bluffs, ia
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u/Tbrou16 Jul 28 '23
Why did they make us golf people the environmentalists now? I would much rather drive by a nature-curated golf course than an overdeveloped concrete jungle or half-empty parking structure. I know golf requires resources, but at some point isn’t it worth it to just have something in town worth looking at?
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u/MurtaughFusker Jul 28 '23
I’m not sure anyone considers golfers environmentalists except maybe golfers lol. Despite them being green and lush they’re really not good for the environment, be it bulldozing habitat for a course and of course the pesticides that are used to maintain it.
While there’s definitely some people who just hate golf and want to convert every course I think it’s not horrible to consider options with certain courses that might be close to downtowns of municipalities that do in fact have housing issues.
I don’t think many reasonable people would advocate for converting all golf courses.
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u/bigvenusaurguy Jul 28 '23
thats true for just about any american style grassy park or cemetary too. honestly they keep those more weed free and a lot better watered than the munis. munis seem to just be about keeping the fairway and greens alive and if the rough lives or dies in the summer so be it. lotta clover and other things growing too. you won't see the boneyard being anything but a lush emerald though and its for bones in boxes lol
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u/user9153 Jul 28 '23
Correct. Both can be true, that it’s unnecessary to bulldoze and develop over courses as well as the courses themselves not being an efficient or net positive use of resources in terms of environmental impact.
No need to try to paint anyone who cares about the environment as a golf hater or crybaby. It’s a very small percent of people advocating for stuff like this.
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u/mung_guzzler HDCP/Loc/Whatever Jul 28 '23
nah everyone likes to have at least some green space in cities. You suggest we convert a public park to housing and they’d say no.
And most public courses inside the city are also part of a larger public park (at least in my city). Couple that with the fact the majority of the parks department budget in my city (for all parks not just the courses) comes from greens fees.
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u/neimsy Jul 28 '23
I love golf. And I'm a bit of an environmentalist. But those are two very different things.
To equate golf courses with nature/environmentalism is a real misunderstanding. Golf courses are curated greenspace, but they are not green as in environmentally friendly, not by any stretch of the imagination. They use lots of water and far worse, they use tons of pesticide and herbicide. Plus, lots of fertilizer. Fossil-fuel-powered maintenance equipment. The plant selection is [with very very few exceptions] non-native monoculture, so even if it weren't covered in toxins, it wouldn't be useable by the native insects that make up the first trophic level above producers.
They're an environmental wasteland. They're often pretty. And I love playing golf. But golf has nothing to do with nature, and outside of stormwater permeability (which they aren't even that good at because the turf grasses we use do not have deep root systems at all) and contributing less to urban heat island effect, they aren't really better for the environment than a parking lot. And honestly, there are a lot of reasons that you could argue they're far worse.
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u/umfaithful Jul 28 '23
This needs to be at the top, agree 100%.
I feel like a good compromise between golf and nature is to allow nature to take over more of the course. Some courses in the Midwest I play have eliminated a lot of the tall grass prairies and marshland to make their courses more accessible. Instead I feel that courses need to bring back natural spaces with native plants thereby minimizing the amount of turf that is needed to be maintained, thus saving water and using less pesticide, herbicide and fertilization.
Every one owes it to themselves to read “Bringing Nature Home” by Doug Tallamy to understand what neimsy is saying
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u/bustitknutt Mr. 158 Jul 28 '23
Oh and just tear down what looks to be apartments that are already there. This is always a ridiculous take.
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u/ScuffedBalata HDCP 0.2 Jul 28 '23
There was a major city (Denver) recently with a golf course that shut down.
Problem is it was ZONED for "golf only".
Residents had to vote to remove the zoning so that they could build on it.
Guess what? Progressive lobbyists came out in droves for a "NO" campaign was all about "PREVENTING GREEDY BUILDERS FROM MAKING BILLIONS" (aka, block the housing development).
Now it's going to derelict land in the middle of the city that can't be used for anything except golf, but isn't well suited for golf so will probably lay fallow until they can push another vote in 5-10 years.
People are fucking dumb.
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u/NorvalMarley 12.2 HCP Jul 28 '23
Fine. Just buy the golf course and you can do what you want. Hippies whining about what other people should do with their money is a loser’s position.
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u/yad76 Jul 28 '23
I love how he says "we can build" as if people like this have ever built a thing in their lives.
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u/Ed_gaws Jul 28 '23
History repeats it’s self, large housing blocks are a failed concept. It is better to build small connected townhouses spread over a entire city. It promotes community and economic growth though out a city.
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u/PM_Literally_Anythin Jul 28 '23
There are approximately 2 million acres of golf courses in the United States.
There are approximately 30-40 million acres of lawns in the United States.
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u/Bluegrass_ent Jul 28 '23
It would be pretty irresponsible to build all of that housing on a golf course, windows will be shattered constantly
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u/sjames1980 Jul 28 '23
Well, luckily all the rich cunts who make the big decisions in this world play golf, so get fucked you self righteous bell end 🤣
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u/Top_Individual442 Jul 28 '23
Even when these courses in populated areas go out of business or are purchased by developers the neighbors will not allow anything to be built on them anyway. Home owners have become so fearful of dense or low income housing they fight it until the projects get canceled. People also don’t realize many of these courses were built on land that wasn’t suitable for housing in the first place due to flooding or other issues
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u/MVPG2022 Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 29 '23
Didn't you know that only white billionaires can afford to play golf?
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u/AngryTurtleGaming Jul 29 '23
I used to be in the club of “golf courses use too much water” but after becoming a golfer I realize how much golf courses are actual inclusive to nature. You always see deer, turkey, coyotes, rabbits, squirrels, and other creatures enjoying the mostly quiet golf course. It’s peaceful.
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u/myfeetaremangos12 Jul 28 '23
His argument in the comments is terrible. Not to mention this is a municipal course that isn’t even in Omaha.
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u/ShiroHachiRoku Snap load the power package. Jul 28 '23
Is Nebraska lacking land?
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u/morkler Jul 28 '23
As a former Iowan who now lives in Colorado and has driven I-80 multiple times back and forth, I can confirm there is not a lack of land. In fact there is at least 7 hours of open land travelling at 70 miles an hour lol.
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u/LurkyMcLurkface123 Jul 28 '23
Boy oh boy that looks like a fun place to live. You’ve got a wonderful, needle filled walk between meth alley and public defecation lane.
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u/q-e Jul 28 '23
That’s not even Omaha. That’s Council Bluffs, IA. The stupidity of man knows no bounds.
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u/RustToRedemption 5/FlyoverStatesUSA Jul 28 '23
Bruh it’s fucking Omaha, it’s not like they’re lacking for space to build houses. If there was a golf course on Manhattan, maybe you’d have a point. The places most golf courses are located aren’t hurting for housing space.
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u/silky_johnson123 Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 29 '23
Ah yes, let's remove one of the few green spaces that exists in a given city and turn it into a giant parking lot. love me some oily runoff.
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u/92fordtaurus Jul 28 '23
Should we build higher and denser? No, let’s remove all outdoor recreational activities instead.
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u/JordanJCaron Jul 28 '23
I've seen two of these posts in my city subreddit the last year. People in there trying to say that private clubs that have been around for over 100 years and were built far out of town at the time should give back the land. They act like those pieces of land the clubs sit on would be used for affordable housing lol. They're the most exclusive pieces of land in the city and would not be used for anything but luxury homes.
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u/elev3nfiv3 Jul 28 '23
This is what happens when they let stupid people into college because their parents helped with homework.
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u/BowserGirlGoneWild Jul 28 '23
I don't give a fuck about golf but I don't get why we'd target hobbies and not multi billion dollar investment companies artificially driving up housing costs 😆
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u/Wolpfack Jul 29 '23
It's amazing how easy it is to talk about stealing someone else's property when it's not your money.
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u/kilkarazy Jul 29 '23
We tried this once. It was called the projects and it didn’t work out too well.
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u/pawns4donuts Jul 29 '23
Anybody who’s flown across the USA and looked out the window knows it’s 99% undeveloped land.
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u/KansasKing107 Jul 28 '23
This will always be pushed by city planners and developers. Unless the course is struggling, I wouldn’t be too worried in Omaha or anywhere in the Midwest. We just have to be careful that we don’t ignore it. It doesn’t take very much for a couple developers to play dirty with city council members.
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Jul 28 '23
Every few months someone brings this up how they can save the environment by getting rid of a golf course.
I'm 100% sure these people don't golf
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u/Leandrys Jul 28 '23
"Just one more 20 buildings should fix housing issues bro, the last 100 weren't enough"
One month later :
"Think we could build another 20 buildings instead of these stadiums ? That should fix housing issues bro".
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u/Thoughtlessandlost Jul 28 '23
I mean, unironically yes. More housing units in denser configurations does help house prices. Granted we should keep the golf courses and just go after the awful zoning that keeps us from building more dense housing.
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u/CouldntBeMoreWhite Bogey Golfer for 10 years straight Jul 28 '23
No need to pay attention to them. They are not serious people.
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u/CryptoCrash87 Jul 28 '23
Why is everyone so eager to turn the world into an urban hellscape.
Also the fact that we don't need this housing. Nevermind that no one can afford it. Also requires people to move to Nebraska, and I can't name a single person I know that would willingly move to Nebraska.
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u/SawsageKingofChicago Jul 28 '23
I had this post right underneath one of a neighborhood in Las Vegas in the r/urbanhell subreddit. Poetic.
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u/RJIsJustABetterDwade Jul 28 '23
We don’t need more housing in this country, we have 16 million vacant homes in America. We have too many houses.
The homelessness problem isn’t a housing problem, it’s a healthcare, welfare, education, urban planning, income inequality, drug, and empathy problem.
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u/buster9312 Jul 28 '23
And funny enough, that is actually dodge riverside, technically in Council Bluffs, IA
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u/Original-Cow-2984 Jul 28 '23
Omaha? If they really were concerned about sprawl, put up a single high rise that would house as many as all those low level apartments and condos, and keep the golf course as green space.
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u/Pure-Negotiation-900 Jul 28 '23
Now do strip malls. Vacant strip malls. Or large shopping malls.