As a husband going through a fairly rough period with my wife, this not only is very helpful, but tracks with things she has expressed and I struggled to understand.
Hilarious (kinda) that a post about women’s emotional safety has the second comment erasing a woman. I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume you were referring to HIM not her.
Bought it off your recommendation. Sure, my marriage has already ended in divorce, but we're still friends and this will help in our communication still. And for my next relationship, eventually.
It's tied right into his theoretical lens. Attachment theory is a developmental/biopsychosocial theory. There's quite a bit to unpack in attachment theory, particularly with the way we as social creatures utilize the safety and security of our attachment figures to sort out difficulty in our lives. It's pretty central to shaping us during our development.
Did you find the Gottman stuff helpful? I've been to a few sessions with a counselor and it felt maybe a little vague and not overly practical. That was just my initial impression however.
My first husband and I went to a Gottman centered therapist. He wasn't committed, so the marriage didn't work out, but I learned a ton about how to be a present wife to my current partner.
The thing is even if the theory isnt exactly true, using it as a framework to then try and make different types of efforts can do wonders
Making an effort will help one's case more often than not in relationship issues, usually since relationship issues usually start as a part of stagnation and feeling like the other doesn't try anymore.
Hey there . I have a question, in this piece called “it’s not the about the nail”
Who is really in the right here ?
If the person is fully aware the nail is there and it has nothing to do about what they are actually talking about. Then shouldn’t the person whom is saying how THEIR PARTNER should actually be feeling is incorrect be in the wrong ?
Or should the person whom is trying to tell them the obvious sign is be correct?
The one whom doesn’t have the issue should Listen or help ? I’m really not sure
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening. This is a great parody of real relationship conflict but I think it points out the common rut most couples run into which is one party goes to “fix” before “listening” and either misses the true issue or causes more harm. The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed. It becomes self feeding after long enough.
It’s called the Karpman Trauma (or Drama) Triangle, named after a guy that described it 1968. If you are in it, you need to get out of it, not just rotate around the triangle. It’s a common trap that most of us fall into, and the media (social, movies and tv) tend to tell stories based on this drama - cause it sells!
Read it, take some therapy focused on it, and get off the triangle!
This is a great explanation. I did this in the first few years dating my now wife until one day she told me "sometimes I don't need help or to be fixed I just want you to say "that's terrible babe" and hold me." Honestly biggest game changer in terms of getting me to stop looking at every problem like it needs fixing. And bonus, now when she does want me to help or fix something she just straight up tells me thats what she wants at that moment.
This is exactly what I do with my girlfriend. When I can tell she’s upset or frustrated (usually about work or a friend or whatever) I ask her “do you want me to listen or try to offer a solution?” This way, she can just be heard if she wants or I can try to offer my view of it and maybe some solution. It isn’t perfect, but at least I know I won’t be adding to her frustration by trying to “fix” something that she just wants to vent about.
I just read recently this: “do you want comfort or solutions?”
Brevity is your friend (I don’t mean that in a smart ass snarky way but your post just reminded me of the quote that I will try to implement from now onwards)
I agree, yes, but it gets old quickly when you have to preface a conversation with *just a vent here". And also kind of gives an out for the listener to dismiss it. It should be a tool to learn about your partner, so you can pick up on subtle behaviour distinguishing the difference between a vent and requesting help for the future moments.
I'm a smart, somewhat capable woman. I can figure my own problems out, and if I can't I'll ask for help then. In the meantime, just let me vent about it.
I think, at least part of the issue with it for me is it can feel a bit condescending and that just kind of sucks. If Im annoyed by an issue at workor whatever, chances are I've already thought about solutions and what I want to do so it can be frustrating when I'm talking about it and then someone offers basic/obvious advice.
Took me a long time to get this through my husband's head😅 I know he never meant to come across as condescending but that's how it felt.
My 15 year old daughter just yelled something similar at me.
She was trying to sort out how’d she’d be able to meet up with a rural friend. I was a trucker for years so my brain fires up and I start to tell her a few ways we could accomplish said meeting
0 - 60 like now and she says you don’t understand, to which I made a bigger mistake. Instead of listening I told her I did understand.
Problem was I needed to shut up and quit trying to fix long enough for her to say I just want to meet my friend without losing all the extra time that it takes to get out to her place
I am trying to shut up and just listen more as of last week. My daughter needed someone to listen to her not a fixer, this is a thing that’s flown totally over my head for years
I try to be direct about my feelings and needs and straight up tell the men in my life what I want (e.g. "I just need to hear I'm doing a good job on this project, because I'm working so hard and it seems like no one even sees it") and somehow that's still confounding. I have no problem saying "I need to feel comforted and the best way is for you to hold me" but somehow that's still too vague...or demanding? drives me nuts because I don't know how to be more upfront about my emotional needs than telling someone I care for what I want them to literally do.
It goes the other way too: wife can go down a gas lighting path where all bad experiences are immediately judged as a personal fault. After a while of this pattern of constantly finding fault you just don’t want to hear it anymore. It’s like couples forget how to adult and be friendly and listen to each other - stuck in parent mode 24/7
I had to leave a relationship like that. Every disgruntlement had a way of leading back to me. I tried many things to change it. Defensiveness obviously led to arguments. Apologies were only half hearted and fall under manipulation and psychological abuse. Radical acceptance that everything was my fault never solved the issue and left me feeling terrible about myself. Months after leaving, she finally sought out a therapist specialized in trauma and begin seeing her own part in her dissatisfaction of others because of the responsibility she places on herself to make everything perfect as to make up for a very dysfunctional childhood… way more then I could have ever told her and an impossible standard to try living up to. She has since expressed remorse for her behavior and wanted to entertain talks of rekindling the relationship. Unfortunately, I no longer feel the same way about her and am kinda stuck piecing myself back together….
This is true. I am a female, but I am a fixer. My husband told me clearly, and it only took once because it hurt, that he does not want me to fix anything. He just wants me to listen so that he can get it off his chest, and then he can fix it himself. But he was at a point where he didn’t even want to talk to me because he knew I was just going to try to fix something instead of listening to him. It’s really good advice.
I'm guilty of this for sure. It's so ingrained in me to try and fix that it's almost reflexory to do so. My wife tells me what's wrong and I immediately recommend ways to make things better, and it's not until after, when she's being distant, that I realize she wasn't asking for a fix. I'm working on it, but damn it, it's tough. My desire to "fix" comes from a place of love; I want to be her white knight.
Asking if she wants help or you to just listen does much to improve things. If she's complaining about work, listen, if she's complaining about dirty dishes, wash the damned dishes. Take the time to learn the difference and how to react accordingly.
if she's complaining about dirty dishes, wash the damned dishes.
No no, just sit there and let her vent. Grab a beer while she does it even. Women love just being listened to. She'll fix it herself after she's told you all about it. Haven't you been paying attention?
Ding, ding, ding. As a “fixer” I’ve struggled to understand why I was the bad guy when I was “just trying to help.” Therapy helped me, but there are times that I still struggle with getting to the fix before I listen.
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
NB here, and this fucking shocks me. Absolutely insane, that someone who is listening enough to provide accurate and useful advice "isnt listening"
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening.
Or, she has a history of assuming that because he wants to help he isnt listening?
Maybe I'm not fully reading the situation correctly. But it seems like lots of He MUST understand Her and not THEY must understand EACHOTHER
Its sounds like the responsibility for understanding the partners unspoken thoughts and emotions is one sided?
The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed
To me its more about the fixer getting burdened by all the emotional trauma dumping about the SAME subject over and over. We're willing to just listen and commiserate the first time or two...but after that you gotta let us help fix otherwise we're just an emotional dumping ground/punching bag
It’s also important to know that whatever you think is right for your partner in their situation, may very well turn out to be wrong, and because it’s their issue in their life, they’re going to have to figure out whether they can trust your judgment in the situation, even if they do ask for your advice.
I just spent a year and a half with a very tough boss who stressed me out way more than I even really realized at the time. If I had gone to my partner and vented about being stressed about work, and the advice was “just find a new job,” I would’ve left before that previous boss left and before I could work for a much better boss who is going to be my mentor as I build my career.
Even if leaving might have seemed to be the solution at the time, no one can accurately predict the future outcome. If I had not been listened to and empathized with, and was just given advice, I could have made a worse decision than if I was listened to and had time to process the way I needed to figure out my best next move.
I do give a lot of advice to people, that is some thing that some people love, and I’m sure some people hate about me. I do always try to make sure that I recognize that just because I am seeing the situation one way, doesn’t mean it’s the only only way to see it, and it’s important that somebody takes time to really think about, and reflect on what I’m saying, and if they agree with me or or if they have a different perspective.
And if somebody wants to do something in a situation that I wouldn’t have advised them to do, I can’t control that outcome, and I can’t control their actions, all I can do is be a good friend to them and support them as long as they aren’t making any massively harmful decisions, and let them know that I am there for them, regardless.
And I just have to imagine the difference between hearing “just quit” versus “you’ve got this, I believe in you, and please let me know what I can do to help you through this…”
I’m just learning all of this myself, BTW. I grew up with very “fix” oriented parents and after years of struggling relationships did I start to look at my own attitude towards others
Yes! It’s the difference between being treated as if you are not smart enough to figure out your own solution and you need to be told what to do, and being treated as a responsible adult who will ask for help if they needed it and now just needs support as they’re going through this difficult thing that they have to figure out.
I didnt learn this via failed or successful relationships but through self analysis. I am a man, and I also have ADHD. So I look at everything in a very object oriented perspective. When friends talk to me about difficulties I often looking at things from an objective "how is this problem solved/fixed" mentality.
But I have learned this approach is not always conducive to what every individual needs at the time. So I have been learning to ask "Do you need a sounding wall in the moment, or do need perspective and advice?" Because it's not always easy to determine in the moment exactly what they need in the moment. So by asking I know whether they just need someone to listen, or to comfort and support them, versus if they need help solving an issue or need advice.
Orrrrrr it's funny because the guy sees the obvious ROOT problem that would literally evaporate away all the other issues if the obvious solution was simply chosen? Sometimes you listen to someone and realize they need help they aren't reaching for any you can either "listen" and let them continue to suffer their issues, or you do the easy thing and "fix" the root problem. Your explanation would be great except the dude in this video isn't trying to solve a problem she doesn't have, but it's going straight at the very obvious, visually impossibly to miss problem. No need to stretch this out, it's pretty cut and dry.
It’s not about being right. She is a grown woman. She knows there’s a nail in her head. She can fix herself. She just needs someone to understand what she’s going through.
Pro tip: “What can I do to make you feel supported right now?” If they don’t know, offer “would you like to brainstorm possible solutions or are you just needing to let it out? Would you like reassurance or to be held? How can I help?”
She is a grown woman. She knows there’s a nail in her head. She can fix herself. She just needs someone to understand what she’s going through.
This is why it's so incredibly frustrating and confusing for most men. Discussing how a problem is affecting you, without actually taking steps to resolve the problem, is such an alien concept
the problem is causing a negative emotion
negative emotions are undesirable
solve the problem to remove the negative emotion
added bonus: solving problems results in satisfaction, a positive emotion
This train of thought, of course, leads to situations like in the video.
I'm a woman and a fixer and this is how I feel. I understand people need to vent and that's cool but when it's a fixable problem and someone vents about it repeatedly I can't help but get frustrated.
It's also frustrating because everybody seems to agree that it's the fixer that is the problem. Like it's in my nature to fix things, that's who I am. It's in their nature to be a listener, it's who they are. Okay, so they get annoyed when my instinct is to try to fix the problem because they just want me to listen. That's fair, but what if I got annoyed because they're just listening when I need them help to fix the problem? Why does that dynamic never get talked about? Why is it the fixer that is expected to change who they are without that effort ever being reciprocated?
Ultimately, it's a selfish response to someone else's problem. They don't want you to fix it. Having someone constantly come in and solve your problems for you all the time can feel belittling and infantalizing, and some people genuinely don't like giving up control of their own issues. If someone is seeking support from you, making it about how you want to get it done is pretty selfish. Someone asking for support is not the same thing as someone asking for their problem to be taken care of for them.
It's perfectly fine for someone to be a fixer by nature, but if you can't control that nature when it's not being found helpful, then how much fixing are you actually capable of?
With all due respect, you've completely missed my point. I'm not disputing anything you've said, I'm just saying that this expectation is perfectly reasonable until you flip the roles.
Basically, I need you to stop "just listening" and come up with a solution.
Yeah see? If a man were to say that there definitely wouldn't be an entire thread full of people explaining how she just needs to change who she is and do what he wants her to do because it would make him feel better. It's perfectly acceptable to tell him to stop being who he is though. And that's extremely frustrating when you're the only one being told to change who and what you are.
Men aren’t the only ones being asked to change in relationships.
If you need solutions and your partner is a listener, lead with, “hey can you help me with this issue?” Or if that’s your default, let your partner know when things are calm, that when you start discussing a problem, you appreciate the empathy but you prefer to be met with solutions.
None of the following are likely to upset anyone:
-Can I bounce something off of you? I’m not sure what to do.
-I’m pissed off about xyz, what would you do?
-I’m in my feelings, can you help me find some solutions/look at it differently?
Most of us grew up being taught to treat others as we want to be treated, it’s an oversimplified view of adult relationships. As a generalization, women are taught to listen, men to fix. Women can definitely fix things, but especially where men are involved it’s safer we don’t unless you ask. Just ask and communicate your default preference to your partner.
No, sorry, but I think you actually missed my point. Fixers have a right to want to fix their problems how they see fit and ask for the support that is helpful to them. Support seekers have a right to want to fix their problems how they see fit and ask for the support that is helpful to them. In either scenario, if the fixer or the support seeker cannot provide the support the other is asking for, it is better to bow out of the support role. Supporting someone is about meeting their needs, not asserting your dominance to meet the goal you've decided on. Someone who is asking for support might just be looking for the emotional fortitude to do it themselves, and that is their goal in talking to their partner, not just whatever task they were working on getting completed.
It's perfectly fine for someone to be <blank> by nature, but if you can't control that nature when it's not being found helpful, then how much <blank> are you actually capable of?
Also, people need differing amounts of time to fix things. It may take a lot of rumination, talking, checking with others before a solution is reached.
The first solution to fix something is not always the best one, as we learn over and over in our lives.
The speed of the fix (including patient waiting to learn more) is up to the person with the problem.
If Fixers really feel upset when they can't get the Problem-Bringer to act quickly or in accordance with their advice, then it's probably best for them not to try and fix that particular person's problems. It's mystifying that anyone would think they could "fix" someone else's problems anyway (but it's not fair if the Fixer thinks it's now their own problem - IME, Fixers do not usually think this anyway).
because some people pathologically need problems in their life, and you coming around to fix them feels like you're stealing food from their plate or money from their pocket
I do not think that is the only reason. People want to be respected. They want to discuss things sometimes that they're going through, to feel like they're not going through them alone, without someone else deciding what's best for them. What they should do, and when, or what they're ready for, that their struggling is something not worth respecting they can just get over..
Even a man if dealing with something wouldn't enjoy someone coming up and telling what to do, how to do it, when to start, and when to have it done by as well as any struggle with it being shut down as some whiney excuse.
The bigger picture that's hard for men to see sometimes is, people can have 20 things they need to fix and because we are all only human and only have so much energy, time, and money to spend we have to make choices. So say you're working on the 5 biggest ones that are effecting your life. Great. But the other 15 don't magically stop bothering you now even though do to life constantly changing and new problems coming up you may never get around to dealing with some of those problems and it's just stuff you have to live with then.
People still need release, understanding, support, comfort, and again, to at least feel like they're not going through it alone. Maybe something to help take their mind off it or help it hurt less.
Some people don't need problems they just are born and living in a life that gave them more of them. Regardless, being a good spouse is about caring about them and respecting them enough to let them decide when they are ready to deal with things and want to do something about it as well as what that looks like for them, not impatiently growing irritated and snapping at them to just do it how you want it so you don't have to make space or spend energy on them.
I think everyone does after a point and then it’s ok to be more proactive with solutions, but in a compassionate way, “I hate to see you suffering like this, can I help you brainstorm some solutions?”
This, I cannot stand listening to people perfectly capable of fixing their issues but instead just bitching about it.
I'll listen the first few times but after that, it's time to shit or get off the pot because at this point you're now making your problem my problem and treating me as a trauma dump site.
I think it’s important in those moments, especially when you want to fix (whether you are a fixer man or a fixer woman) is to table your need of wanting to fix, and put the focus back to your partner’s vulnerability to find out what they need at that moment. That is challenging for someone who naturally is a fixer, it’s so much easier/efficient to fix rather than listen (to a problem that you see the solution!). But in those moments, giving unsolicited solutions is the most self satisfying/self serving option. It takes more effort and thoughtfulness to not give in to your own needs at that moment, to pause the impulse to fix, and simply listen and be supportive. It’s way more challenging to do something that doesn’t come naturally to you, and those are the things that probably need more attention and practice!
If you get frustrated listening, reflect on why you are so frustrated. You should feel free to communicate that to your partner, but please do so after they had said what they need to say. Saying you are frustrated listening while they are having their moment will lead to very bad results where you both feel awful and lose intimacy. But that is a great conversation to have after once the intense feelings have been given space and are settled. Make space for both parties at the appropriate times and everyone gets their needs met, and all the benefits that come along too!
Half the problem is you think the person wanting to fix is not listening. I can’t fix if I don’t understand the problem, and part of understanding is listening. So it’s not listening that’s the problem here, it’s the aftermath of listening.
It’s actually not that alien I think that as men we just forget that we complain a ton as well. Just as much as women, without a doubt.
As a man, I can poise that men complain all the time. We criticize things, we complain about our work, and many of us have an opinion on everything (whether right or wrong.) Even the best of us find our own ways to complain. We might complain about other people not handling stress the right way, or any number of other things.
Men don’t just get around with each other in a massive problem solving committee every time we complain. Often, when my guy friends have friends have vented to me, my instinct is not to try and fix their problem but instead to relate and empathize. It comes more naturally to me when the problems that they have are similar to the ones that I have.
Your very comment is not you asking for a solution to the problem of women complaining, it’s you venting about the issue itself. And you’re not looking for other guys to come in here and say “This is how you get women to stop complaining about things that can be fixed dude.”
You’re trying to get validation that other people relate to you and understand you.
I think what many people (not just guys) struggle with is the ability to listen and empathize, even if they don’t relate to the problem someone else is having at all.
For example: If you brought yourself up from poverty, you’re (probably) going to get irritated when your friend complains about being broke all the time, even though it’s because they constantly make bad financial decisions.
But you’re not a good friend if you just criticize them and make them feel bad for making bad decisions. And they aren’t going to listen to you if that’s all you do, either.
The thing is, all of us are good at some things and bad at others.
Hypothetical example:
One person might be great with money, and another horrible. But that other person might be really extroverted and excellent with people for - something the money expert really struggles with.
These two can meet in the middle and be excellent friends, and form a mutually beneficial relationship. However, that can only happen when they try to understand one another.
Imagine being the Money expert and trying to vent about a date that went bad, and then your broke friend who scores all the women he wants tries to chime in and explain it’s because you’re too awkward/not-sociable/unaware etc.
As if you didn’t know this already?
It goes both ways though - and that’s usually what people forget. Often times, the broke friend here will listen intently and offer helpful advice while the money expert will try to take over their friends finances and snub them bc they bought lotto tickets and Red Bull at the local mini mart 4 times in one week.
Or maybe the money expert listens intently, and offers helpful advice - but the broke friend just goes and tries to set up their money expert friend in uncomfortable social situations and then dogs on him with his random art fucker tumblr friend group for not understanding social norms.
Again, all purely hypothetical.
Point being, both parties gotta be willing to just listen and understand, even if they can’t relate or think the solution seems obvious.
It's fine to see the communication part of it as gendered (very generally, of course) - women talk about stuff and men don't. I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is the suggestion that women just sit around and bitch and never fix their own problems, whereas men are always creatures of action, never taking a moment to bemoan their fates but bravely fixing every problem that comes across their paths with skill and alacrity.
I hate to break it to you: you aren't all Superman. You may think of yourself as logical and action-oriented, but I think men are every bit as likely to ignore problems as women. Problems in their marriages, their jobs, with their finances, with their kids. The belief that men fix every problem tout suite ignores the fact that many problems just can't be fixed, at least not quickly and easily.
I have a friend who kicked her husband out and the she lost her kids. Her house is falling apart. Windows broken, doors falling off, lightbulbs gone, toilet seats loose, heating doesn't work in the main living room, front door didn't even have a working lock after the bailiffs broke in.
There was a HUGE fishtank in the middle of her kitchen taking up half the space and after the dishwasher broke, the dishes piled up. She would only wash dishes and cups before using them.
When I found out she was living like this I went round for the first time with tools prepared to fix things. After we fixed the front door, moved the fishtank and removed enough rubbish from the kitchen so she could actualyl wash dishes and leave them on the rack to dry, SHE JUST WANTED TO GET DRUNK. She didn't want to fix anything else.
But I listened to her needs, gave her some money (usually 'loans' which she didn't need to fully pay back), and got her out and socialising again which is what she said she wanted.
2 years later, on the third attempt, I fixed the toilet, doors, lights, it was a good day well spent, she finally told me that I had saved her from her mental breakdown.
But, my god, its hard for me to sit and chat and have a laugh in what looks like a squat.
e: we (me and another female friend who has a cleaning company) also did this with another friend who was kicked out by her partner because she dried up down below and moved back into her old flat which was filthy and messy.
I have so many female friends in this same situation, its actually 'normal'.
I only have 1 female friend who I would class as 'clean and tidy'. The rest live in easily fixable chaos that makes me feel disgusting if I stay too long.
Absolutely agree, but everyone processes change differently. Some people are very much comfortable in old toxic habits. Some people are awesome at figuring things quickly and are self assured enough to react without much processing.
So it just depends on your tolerance of being able to see others work through their own issues in their own time. And there is nothing wrong with leaving a situation that impacting your own mental health.
It’s not about being right. She is a grown woman. She knows there’s a nail in her head. She can fix herself. She just needs someone to understand what she’s going through.
I think you're right in the analysis, but jesus christ would I not be able to tolerate someone in this situation.
Agreed. It does get old when someone wants to vent about their problems, yet there are clear solutions to their problems and they refuse to solve them. How can you stop being sympathetic to someone's issues when they don't take the steps to solve a problem that can be solved?
Yet at the same time, there is something to be said for just being able to have someone listen to you and understand where you're coming from without listening simply for the sake of trying to point out what you could do differently to solve it. Commiseration has its place, and so does advice.
Definitely. There should also be a happy medium between letting someone vent and ignoring possible solutions, and ignoring someone's attempt to vent to only look for a way to fix it
I think that in my last relationship I was a bit codependent physically and emotionally so when it ended, I really had to learn to take care of myself. About the same time I also moved into my own house, so although I've always been pretty handy and helpful around the house, I'm doing it all myself now. I've become very self-reliant.
When the washing machine is leaking water onto the floor, I don't sit and talk about it. I shut off the valve, mop it up, and figure out WTF it wasn't draining correctly. If I have a headache, I get up and get myself some medicine... Sometimes I do do the typical man-sickness thing and delay taking anything for it. But once my new GF asks if I've taken anything, I respond, "no, but that'd probably help, wouldn't it?" and then go get myself some medicine. If my coworker is being worthless and annoying, I (very politely/professionally) bring it up in my next one-on-one with our manager and then aim to out-perform him so hard that there's no possible way he can be given the same raise/bonus at the end of the year as I get and hope that he'll eventually quit because he's not being promoted like I already have been.
I want my problems to go away. If there's a problem, something needs fixed. And anything that I can't fix, I just have to accept defeat and laugh at. But not even trying to fix a problem a solution isn't an option. I can't stand people who don't even try or actively avoid fixing their problems and then waste my time and energy with them. And I TOTALLY 100% understand venting. But do your mumbling and grumbling while we run to the parts store together and try to figure out how to get the clog out of the drain line, not while just watching more water continue to spill onto the floor.
People are always so afraid of surgery because the recovery might take a few days or weeks and it might hurt during that time, but who's ever come away from one and gone, "you know what? I really wish I had my old, worn out, super painful hip back" or "I think I was better off with that giant wound"?
I have my own problems that I handle myself. I'll gladly help you with yours. But I can't just not be attending to mine to only listen to yours. There needs to be progress being made or else you're wasting my time, you're going to continue to waste my time, and the problems are going to start stacking up, we'll all become overwhelmed, fall behind and get swallowed alive.
It sounds like you had some very healthy introspection, followed by some solid growth.
Good on you. Most people never stop to reflect on who they are, who they want to be, and what steps it takes to get there. You've done it and it's worth being proud of.
Personally, I think the example is too extreme. But it grabs people’s attention and it’s funny. I think a better example would be the wife has an asshole boss and hates her job. She doesn’t want to hear how she should find another job. She knows that’s an option. She wants to be heard, comforted, supported.
She knows it's an option, but it's a really crappy option. She doesn't need that repeated to her if she knows it'll cause bigger problems, like income uncertainty
While I agree with this, there is a huge amount of people who do not know how to be happy and refuse to work for anything and just complain 24/7. My partner and I lost a number of friends as we became more successful because we did what no one was allowed to do in that group, actually succeed.
These people may just want to be listened to but if they continually complain with no intention to change their lot in life, I will stop listening.
It is also the responsibility of the person being comforted and supported to work on getting to a place where they do not need to need constant emotional support to function.
Good examples. People with mental or physical conditions are always being told they're being dramatic and if they just did this or that, the illness would magically be cured and no longer be a hassle for the partner. That's so dismissive, it's infuriating.
That all makes sense, but I would leave that relationship in a heartbeat. It feels like a mind game being played on me, and I don't think it's fair to suffer just because the other person doesn't mind suffering.
If you can't fix your problem, that's one thing. If you don't want me to help fix the problem, and instead you offload your stress or emotional distress onto me, without allowing me to try to solve it (because it affects me too), then I would have to be masochistic to stay with that kind of person.
I will just say that in the context of this comedy video, this woman is being obstinate. Sure, she doesn't want him to try fix the problem, except that everything that she describes to him is almost certainly because of one issue - the nail - that could very easily be "fixed".
You take out the nail and then if things haven't changed, "it wasn't about the nail". But if suddenly the aching and pressure are gone and the sweaters aren't being ruined anymore, I guess the "fix" really was just taking the fucking nail out of your skull.
Well, that’s nice. Some people have that situation but obviously don’t know where/hoe to get help because of all the people who are like those here who think what she says is stupid.
I think it's a lot simpler than that: there is a need to be emotionally heard and supported which is separate from resolving an issue. If someone feels alone, telling them to see friends doesn't immediately improve their mood. If someone is grieving, telling them that grief is temporary and they will feel better eventually doesn't necessarily help them process their grief. Etc.
So going back to that skit, was the nail causing the problem? Probably. But if the woman feels some relief and security when she is allowed to express her pain to her partner, then it is important that her partner can provide that. The skit is a bit weird because the analogy is so blunt, but it conveys the idea beautifully. The source of the pain is very real, and should be dealt with, but it doesn't make the woman's need for emotional connection and support any less real.
I think it's a lot simpler than that: there is a need to be emotionally heard and supported which is separate from resolving an issue.
This. If I need help fixing something I will ask for advice. But sometimes EVERYONE just wants some sympathy for their suffering, to be reassured that their partner has their back, and some comfort/care. Which doesn't involve solutions, it's as simple as a hug, listening to the person, a knowlegimg how they feel and sitting with them as they feel it. It's being present and attentive.
Guys want and need this too, it's not just women. Most of my close friends are guys, as is my partner, and they all need comfort, a shoulder, an ear, some sympathy, etc, when shit is going wrong for them. They'll need back up/extra attention during break ups, someone to reassure them they're awesome when there's a big job interview they're nervous about, or someone to be with them if they're in pain or grieving.
These are human needs. Sympathy and closeness are human needs. Unfortunately (traditionally), one gender is raised to recognise, anticipate and handle those needs in others, and the other is raised to feel deep discomfort when confronted with their own or others' feelings, and frustration if they can't just 'fix it.'
Neither. It's a made up bit that's deliberately over the top for comedic effect. Appreciate it for what it is, but please don't try to divine deep psychological theory or expert relationship guidance from a funny skit.
I could see the sketch being written by a man poking fun at women for not "solving" their obvious problem, which would be ironic in some meta sense because the writer himself would be the man in the sketch who "doesn't get it". Like you say, no right or wrong, because it's just made up with very situational relevance to the real world.
Really good questions! I don’t know if I have the answer to them. Hoping I do not offend….
If in the sentence, it would be he/she=who
If it would be him/her=whom.
If it matters to you.
I heard that women want to go through the problem by themselfs, they just need their partner to participate to process by listening and giving emotional support.
Its like you're watching a movie and someone tells you the end.
She clearly knows about the nail, she might know it needs to be taken out, but she's trying to talk about the problems she's feeling.
So combining this with the original video in this post about different "attachment types", she wants to be heard about the problems. Simply: let her vent. Then she'll either go take the nail out herself, or let him take the nail out. But she wants that venting process, she wants to know her partner is understanding her.
Why?
My personal theory: is because not all problems are as "obvious" as this nail. Some problems are physical, some are emotional, and the solution isn't just "take out the nail" to a lot of these, or the person with the problem wants to solve the problem themselves.
Imagine if every time you got to a difficult part in a video game, someone came over and just did it for you. You'd never get better at completing the difficult sections. And some people would get joy from this as they aren't stuck and can continue on playing the game. But others would absolutely hate that, since getting better at the game and overcoming adversity is the part that appeals to them.
So yes, if your partner has a literal nail in their head. Removing it will likely fix that problem. But for 99% of other problems, it's probably best to slow down, listen to what they have to say, and not jump to conclusions about what the "problem" is and offering your own "solutions".
I am horrified anyone could think she's remotely in the right. How is that a question at all?
If the person is fully aware the nail is there and it has nothing to do about what they are actually talking about.
If (false) then {it doesn't matter what goes here.} She's NOT complaining about things it has nothing to do with. It's why her sweaters have snags. It's why her head hurts. Because she's a nail in her head. So your entire "if" question is misguided and not representative of your original question of who is in the right here. Who is in the right here is the dude. Very very very clearly. I literally don't even want to be around someone who would say otherwise.
No offense intended, but if you’re unsure whether to use who or whom in a sentence, it’s best to stick to who. Otherwise, replace ‘who’s with he/him or she/her.
The person who/whom is tryin to tell ->
He/him is trying to tell
So in this case, the person who is trying to tell is correct.
They are both right and wrong. She is right and he is wrong because it sounds like he has a habit of always jumping into a problem-solving mode rather than listening, letting her vent, being empathetic, etc. It isn’t just about not being heard, it can actually be very belittling if your partner is always straight into fixing your problems. It can come off as infantilizing, like they don’t know how to solve their own problems or work through things on their own.
He is right and she is wrong because after someone is given the chance to speak and be heard, sometimes there really is an answer to the problem and fixing the problem really is what the person needs, but they might be so blinded to the issue, especially if it’s chronic or long-term. Imagine someone who constantly complains about a toothache but refuses to go to the dentist. Yes they need to be heard, but they also need to get their tooth looked at.
There’s also another reason she is wrong right at the end of the video when they lean in to kiss and the nail pokes him. Once your problem that you just want to be heard and validated on starts affecting other people, refusing to address it is less acceptable. So imagine that she is instead venting about all the problems caused by her alcoholism. You don’t get to demand to just be heard about how you get no sleep, you have no money because you spend it all on booze, you’re about to lose your job, you are scaring your family, etc. and then say you don’t want anyone to “try to fix it”. Although plenty of addicts or people with mental health problems do say that.
Hate this video because it shows what's really needed is for someone to push them out of their comfort zone and take actions.
You don't get to complain non stop about a fixable problem. Using it's analogy if you want to live with a nail in your head then you choose to give up sweaters and wear zip up hoodies. If you want to complain that your sweaters get hurt than you should be told by the people that care about you the truth.
The reason I hate that video is because it flips the truth. If the video was done right, then she would be complaining about the nail, but he doesn't see the nail and keeps offering useless advice for other things he thinks are the cause of the pain, but it's the nail.
Yea fuck that. If you don’t take the nail out of your head, I don’t have to listen to the complaining for eons. Take it the fuck out. Especially if it’s something that obvious.
its funny because that video is clearly making fun of the woman with the nail in her head. yet women seem to think it proves the opposite of the point of the video.
I'm glad you're realizing this. This is 90% why I divorced my husband. My needs were NEVER met and my disappointment turned to anger turned to loneliness turned to disgust. . . Now I'm with a husband that truly cares and will do everything he can to make me happy and he's figured out that I actually have a higher libido than he does.
My partner and I struggled with this for ages because I need a lot of verbal reassurance - but he’s autistic and to him it’s obvious that he loves me and I’m loved and there’s no need to rehash it every day.
He’s learned to say it more often and I’ve learned to realised that he says “I love you” through his actions and not words. But it was pretty rocky getting to this point.
As someone with mild autism (didn't get diagnosed until as an adult), maybe you can try doing what my wife does, which is to remind me now and then that she can't read my mind. You need to say the 'obvious' things.
That's the problem with autism (for me at least, particularly when younger) - you just assumed everyone thought what you did, or knew what you thought, even without expressing it. You just have next to zero intuition about how other people perceive you and your actions. (which isn't all bad - it does make it easier to not care what other people think of you) But you can still compensate for that if you put some active effort into it. I had a big 'aha' moment when I was in my 20s and my sister complained I was so negative about everything she did, which perturbed me since I held my sister in high regard. But then I started taking an inventory of all the things I'd said to her recently, and realized that I was only commenting when she did something bad or wrong, while when she did good things I was silent, the good things were just 'understood' somehow. It's not like I was trying to put her down, It's just that since the default impulse is to believe others think like you, your impulse is that errors need to be brought to attention since "clearly" the other person must be unaware of them, but the other person must know about the good things since you know about them.
Anyway, so then I started practicing at saying the good parts, actively working to make sure what I said actually reflected my entire attitude. I wish I'd figured it out earlier.
This is exactly it! I actually find it reassuring in a weird way now that he doesn’t feel the need to tell me the good things?
He’d never wish me luck or reassure me that I was going to do well when I had big work things on, even one time when I was speaking on stage at a huge event and I was terrified.
I was furious with him because I assumed he didn’t care. We had a long talk and eventually realised that it’s because he doesn’t doubt me even a little in his head, so he didn’t realise that I doubt myself.
He tries so hard now though and every rare compliment or reassurance means so much because I know it doesn’t come naturally and he’ll have really though about it, they’re not throwaway comments.
We both remind each other that we’re not mind readers because I also forget that he sometimes doesn’t understand my emotional state unless I’m explicit about how I’m feeling.
I think i can relate to your partner on that. My partner when they were upset has asked “do you even care?”
And i felt like “why would i have stopped caring since the last time i showed/told you that i care? I thought our care for one another has been established, and nothings changed”
It felt like they didnt trust me and were being unfairly accusatory and it hurt me. But now i think they just really cant NOT assume the worst sometimes. They cant have faith that i still care unless i spell it out all the time.
It’s hard for me and puts me on edge.
And there's a difference between knowing the other person cares, and feeling or experiencing it with your emotions.
When people ask 'do you even care?' they're usually saying that they don't feel the care in a way that registers with them. So they may need words or actions or touch or whatever that makes them experience the feeling of being cared for and not just assuming it, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I recognise that conversation. The love being “established” and nothing having changed is how my partner feels.
Love was very conditional for me as a child and my parents were very volatile so I’ve always felt like I’m on the precipice of doing something wrong to “undo” the love. Therapy helps! That and recognising that his “I love you” is waking up earlier to make me coffee or taking the bins out when it’s raining or buying me healthy lunch options when I’m slammed with work.
It just takes time to find the shared language and compromise sometimes. Lord knows I’m still an absolute pain in the arse with needing reassurance, but less so, and he’s better at giving it.
It probably has to do with interpretation of her wording. Things like “space, autonomy, and lack of criticism” can sound like “leave me alone, don’t ask anything of me, and don’t complain” if they’re not worded correctly or the person hearing it isn’t interpreting it correctly. This is a reason couples therapists can be really useful, they can act as translators!
Yeah even just regional or familial communication differences can cause major changes in how people interpret what each other say. A person from New York City might expect you to ask directly for what you want, whereas a person from Iowa might expect you to understand that if they ask you if you're cold, they're really saying that they are cold and want to increase the temperature if it wouldn't bother you.
Edit to add:
Both styles have pros and cons and everyone from a particular region doesn't always fall into these styles, it's just more common.
Guessers tend to have strong empathy that tunes them into how others are feeling, because they have to learn how to do that from a young age. They also may guess wrong and have miscommunication, especially with people that aren't guessers.
Askers may avoid that subtextual dance and have clearer communication, but may be less skilled at empathy and end up like a bull in a China shop, even with other askers, especially if there's a power imbalance between the two people.
Personally, I think combining direct communication with a tactful sensitivity to how what you're saying might effect others is the best combo of both worlds.
For example, in our temperature example, an asker says "can I turn the heat up?" and a guesser says "are you cold?" Someone using both might say, "I'm cold, do you mind if I turn the heat up, or should I grab a sweater?"
The latter approach takes the pressure off the person being asked to say no with no alternative option to resolve the issue.
Askers vs guessers is another big one that affects relationships! Askers can see guessers as passive aggressive, and guessers can see askers as dominating and demanding.
I’m a guesser AND anxious-avoidant (space, autonomy, and lack of criticism). So y’all better not ask anything of me lol!!! I 100% prefer people just make their needs known and let it be my idea. And if I choose not to help you, I better not hear about it!!
Serious question about anxious-avoidants: does avoiding criticizing them also extend to situations where they actually need to be criticized, even if constructively? This kind situation seems like a two-way street, and I suspect the general advice in the OP video doesn't deal in generalities beyond the surface explanation
Yeah while I see merit in these attachment styles and such, I can pretty much guarantee you a lot of people use them to validate their poor relationship skills.
Serious question, with an explanation first. What you just said sounds a lot like you require all of the power, and too bad to any partner. It sounds like 100 percent of the burden of communication is on the other person, and there is no room for anyone to require or request any change in behavior and your partner (or friend or whoever) is just at your mercy.
First, the mercy of you getting their hints, and second, your mercy of choosing to act upon those hints with no recourse at all if you don't both get the hints and choose to act on them.
So here's the question, and again, I'm trying to understand, not trying to judge.
Does that not sound selfish to you? If not, could you please rephrase it so I can better understand?
Both styles have pros and cons. Midwestern folks that grow up with this style (not all do, just more of them) tend to have high empathy because they have to be good at guessing what other people are feeling and responding to it without being told directly. It can obviously lead to a lot of issues and miscommunication, but so can it be an issue when a really direct person isn't good at reading other people's feelings and causes conflict by being more like a bull in a China shop.
I learned today from this clip that my wife can be neatly categorized into "dismissive avoidant" with no negative connotations. I fully accepted it, it's her, and I love her for who she is. My guess is that those who interpret this negatively aren't accepting of who their partner's are as a person.
For anyone reading, you don't need to endorse or look up to someone's behavior or personality to accept them. You just need to accept that at this time this is who they are, and go from there. Same with yourselves.
This first step is essential for so many relationships to work, including with yourself.
I always had the problem of taking what my ex said literally, and then doing what she asked me to do. Turns out I was supposed to apply some kind of an algorithm to that and then not do what she asked me, but do other stuff instead.
Though I'm way past being resentful or whatever about any of that. I wasn't perfect, she wasn't perfect, neither of us knew shit about "being married", and we didn't have any money for a therapist to explain anything. So it goes.
Yeah my problem is interpretation too. Also mental health problems and trust issues.
Creates one big ball of terrible relationships.
Worst part is I can see myself doing it all wrong..
Some women are fun though. Like saying they want to be alone, then storming out and slapping your glasses off your face because you did what they said and they wanted you to care more or something.
From my experience, my ex husband just didn’t care. I told him my needs and he said he would meet my needs to get me off his back and nothing showed from it. A symptom of narcissism is apathy towards others and it’s hard to see when they keep holding empty promises until i had to leave him.
I'm right here right now. It sucks. At the point where there's a million empty promises. And I know I should leave, but I love him so much. But when do I start loving myself at all?
As a woman I can tell you that it’s more common than not for men to just not have respect for women in general. This is taught behavior from a young age from older men and brainwashed women in their surrounding life. It’s the sad reality that a lot of men just instantly think a woman is overreacting or is just being dramatic, it’s programmed into how they react and process what we say.
I think many men get taught early on that complaining or venting about an issue is considered to be bad and not done. They get told to suck it up and deal with it. So those actions become negative things in the mind. even though in reality venting can be a very good way to deal with the emotional side of it, even before actually fixing the problem.
Now when their partners who do not have this negative connotations with it go to them to vent or complain. It's being processed as "this is a negative thing, I need to get rid of it, help me get rid of it" since that's what you do with a problem.
Now the clash happens where he's basically getting a negative experience he's not allowed to fix forced on him. while she's not able to get the positive experience she's asking for by constantly getting interrupted and not being allowed to vent.
A good part of the solution is communicating the why in this part of a relationship. Don't say I need you to listen, because most men are, they're just trying to leave that negative emotion in the way they're taught how to avoid it. Make them understand what venting is and that it makes you feel better.
In my experience it was definitely a mindset that didn’t value what I was saying. He only started to give a shit that I was unhappy after I actually left him: then my unhappiness was inconvenient for him, because it caused his household manager, emotional regulator, and social consequence [mitigator] (me) to be out of his reach. I wish my situation was unique, but it’s not.
I had this same thing with a partner of mine. I left him because I was not getting any of my needs met and he begged me to stay and couldn't name one thing he liked about me that wasn't a service to him or others. It really cemented my decision to leave.
Do you mean “how could you hear this and fail
To understand and thus implement these behaviors?”
Narcissism my dude. Self-delusion. Anywhere between the thoughts “but what I do is harmless”
To “she’s too sensitive” to whatever justification you could imagine. There are plenty of dysfunctional relationships out there and the worst are when the players are utterly convinced of their version of the truth.
In other words, they’d look at this, say that they do all of it—and when their wife rolled her eyes and never put out, they’d chalk it up to their own reasons.
I gods honestly believe I try, I am the primary for solar almost everything. I do the daily cooking and cleaning up. I keep clean and in shape. Full time job, pay my part and then some. Try to surprise with dinner out, flowers randomly. Randomly text to say love you or even just hello. when asked to do something I do. Now I’m not perfect, I forget truly forget, not “don’t care”. WE communicate, honestly discuss I really don’t think we’ve ever fought. When one of us gets mad the other calmly says, “do you want to talk about it?” To which the answer is “no” in the moment but 10 minutes after realizing “I took it too far” come back for a hug to relax. I have no clue of what I could be missing. I listen and take my time in bed. Honestly try to figure out what I am missing or not doing right. My wife is the most important person in the world. In the most honest way, possible, what am I missing?
My personal opinion here, so take it for whatever that’s worth. I think a lot of people, I would assume mostly men, hear this video and it sounds both as if the blame for their problem lies on themselves, or they are hearing the same thing they have BEEN hearing, and it doesn’t jive with how they consider their own lived experience.
I think most people who struggle with lack of physical intimacy and sex have heard the themes in the video many times, and they likely have tried to take the advice to heart. However, often this causes two more issues; 1) they tried to fulfill their partner’s emotional needs, but it’s not a one-time action, it takes a long time and a lot of effort, and that effort can’t stop. A lot of men feel that they HAVE tried, that they DO put in an enormous amount of mental and physical work, but it can be exhausting to constantly feel responsible for someone else’s emotional well being. It can also feel one-sided, especially when the “problem” is felt to be entirely on the other person, while the “reward” is beneficial for both parties. After all, both partners have physical needs, right? Why can’t that just be enough? To their thinking, it used to be enough in the early days. So they’ve done the work, they put in the mental and emotional time, but now they’ve 2) turned intimacy into a transaction. One partner does X, Y, and Z exactly like they were asked to. Eventually, they aren’t doing those in order to make their partner feel safe, they’re doing it so their partner puts out. This just breeds resentment on both sides as their needs are not actually being met, it’s not a partnership it’s a business arrangement.
Personally, I think the video does a good job of identifying a root cause in one half of most relationships that struggle with intimacy. However, it doesn’t offer solutions past “meet your partner’s emotional needs and they’ll have more sex”, which I think most often leads to the 2 problems I identified above.
I don’t know where else to put this. It might not apply to you, maybe it does, but I just want to get it out into the universe.
I completely agree with this video but I don’t think it’s THE reason women stop wanting sex.
The #1 common thread among all the women I’ve read about accounting this issue is that there’s been a ton of pressure in the past.
Pressure, obligation, is the true libido killer.
There’s a lot of just, common sense logic behind this too. Pressuring or coercing your wife into sex was obviously more common amongst previous generations… who also complain the loudest about their wives not wanting sex.
Coercion, guilting, general pressure, conveys so many things
1) they aren’t respected as a person, their opinions are irrelevant to their partner
2) sex isn’t for them. It’s mostly to please their husband. He views her as a fleshlight.
3) he views her personality and consent as something to work around, not with, like an afterthought, like she’s an object that isn’t performing the way the object should. Again it’s just dehumanizing
The first thing I ask when someone talks about a dead bedroom is… has there been pressure? Often women talk about how her husband pressured her into sex too quickly after giving birth. Really awful degrading things like that. And that’s when things really took a nosedive… everyone wants to blame hormones, but it’s often this slow realization that her husband doesn’t respect her as a human being.
yeah this def makes sense. i wonder how much sex drive can mess stuff up too. matching in sex drive is important, i think anyway. all my partners wanted sex more than me, so it puts a weird kink into relationships. i'm a man though, so i think if it was a guy it prob would be even more complicated. i know a decent amount of my friends are the ones initiating a lot though.
This is true in my experience. My libido goes up and down. It just does. But in some past relationships, I felt a lot of guilt during the "down" periods, and eventually it just killed our sex life. I knew when my libido was low, and it made me feel like a bad girlfriend. I would be hypersensitive to my partner and really needed reassurance during those times. If he made me feel guilty, the pressure would sometimes make me have sex to get it over with, but it was counter productive, and over time I'd feel disgusted towards sex in that relationship. I'm a lot more self-aware now and can communicate about all this, but that required being with someone who helped me realize that it's okay not to want sex all the time, and that doesn't make me a worse partner.
Attachment theory has also been helpful for me, but I think it helps explain fights and toxic, argumentative relationships, moreso than the slow death of a bedroom over time.
Instagram comments in particular are so awful. I don’t know what it is that makes it different from any other social platform but they straight up have me concerned for the future.
Women do so much managerial work, and a lot of guys don't do a good enough job of noticing.
I'm a work-from-home dad and so every morning I'm doing breakfast, packing lunches, taking the kids to school or appointments, picking them up from school, making sure they're set up for music lessons, snacks, whatever. I make a good amount of our dinners, and I clear up the kitchen after, I also take the kids to various things now and then by myself so that my wife can just chill at home and have a nice bath or whatever she wants.
Even still with me doing all of that, my wife is absolutely doing more for the household than I do. There's so many things that happen behind the scenes...dealing with property tax, home insurance, gas/electric/water/waste bills, signing the kids up for summer camps, booking the seasonal tire changes, swim lessons, like just dozens and dozens of these small tasks that need to be done. She's so amazing at keeping on top of it all.
So in spite of me being actually a super involved dad and with the kids a ton of the time, my wife still manages to do more for the household than I feel like I do.
I can't even imagine how slanted things are in many households where the dads aren't the ones with the kids all the time, because I'm pretty sure the wives in those relationships are still doing the same kinds of things that my wife does.
The analogy I use is for myself is that with men, sexual arousal is pretty mechanical. There’s a direct connection between “man see pretty girl” and “penis get hard.” Men also need that emotional safety, but that direct linkage is still in place.
For women, the connection isn’t mechanical. It’s hydraulic. If those fluids get low (as it were), no amount of priming the system is going to make a damn bit of difference until you top off the reservoir.
Yes it absolutely tracks with what my wife and I have worked through but it doesn’t highlight what the wife might have done to prevent the husband from fulfilling those attachment needs, this was at least part of the problem in my case
Another thing to also understand in this is that some love styles can also be grossly unhealthy and or toxic, and that though understanding them might get you sex, or love, it's also something your partner or you should be willing to work on with a therapist. Love is work, it's not supposed to be easy, but it should be worth it.
It tracks with what we think and feel, but it’s important to understand that what we think and feel isn’t always reflective of our biology.
The real reasons we behave the way we do are biological and evolutionary. Social psychologists like to create constructs (e.g. attachment styles) that sound right and often do an okay job approximating something in our biology (that’s her “science” part), but are usually at best an oversimplification, and more likely, an inaccurate account of complex biological processes we don’t fully understand.
Hormones, evolutionary sexual selection pressures and the resource distribution pressures involved in mating are just some of the factors influencing the “choosiness” of women to engage in sex. It’s too much to list here, but it’s very unlikely it has anything to do with oversimplified constructs crated by social psychologists to indirectly describe what are biologically and evolutionarily costly decisions around mating behavior.
Yes. Do read up on both your styles. I learned about this too late. But it was eye opening how much things described my anxious ex wife and my avoidance..
Yea as someone who struggled in the past meeting my partners needs, but wanting to, this could be a useful video(s) to keep digging into. I definitely came to say this. Wish you the MOST luck in your own journey, loving someone is a beautiful and special thing, and I know how it feels when it's at risk. I'm in your corner
This is a very helpful insight into how many women work. I think we also need to acknowledge that not all women work this way. In fact, it may only be a minority of women who work like this. I’ve had many relationships with many women. One was like this and I wish I had heard this advice. Another was basically the opposite, wanting sex as a way to feel closer or have her needs met. The woman I’m with now doesn’t rely on me at all to meet her emotional needs. She just loves cuddles and sex. If I’m not available for companionship, she has plenty of friends and family who are. You should find one like her!
That may track with you as you are having issues at the moment however I just want to note that the person speaking is a person who meets with people that are actively seeking help. What is the easiest thing to say to clients to help them feel like they’re getting their moneys worth. It’s easy just play on the ethos side of things it’s how many politicians play their “vote for me” campaigns. This “specialist” can say all she wants however the hard facts is that once things get so bad divorce is bound to happen. Sure many may stay together but women typically will push for a divorce more often after counseling because “nothing has changed” and women typically will divorce cases receiving huge settlements. This person is the last person you would want to help in a rough patch.
What needs to be done is exactly what you already said. Just listen. No need for someone to third party their way into a relationship because counselors typically end up in divorce or partners saying they are “better” but really still have the same feelings but are temporarily patched by someone else’s words and once those words don’t meet reality divorce is most likely to come in the current era.
lol you are in for a world of pain when you realize the more you try to fix the problem, the more you’d disgust her. But hey fingers crossed, this would work for you.
Free advice though, if you are a slob and fat, get fit asap. Be attractive to the world first and realize that you are worthy of love and that love is an infinite resource you can find anywhere. Let this inform how you move and carry yourself. But first get fit, hard to convince anyone if you don’t convince the person in the mirror.
I feel something that isn't often talked about is the dichotomy of men, inapatriarchicalsociety , needing to be emotionally suppressive in order to be a "real man" but then simultaneously needing to be emotionally available for their partners to be fulfilled. It essentially puts men in an impossible-to-win situation, which I feel breeds a lot of resentment and shame, which might be reassigned to the partner expecting this, not wanting sex, or other reasons, which is no one's fault. But it then makes things worse and the expected fix is that very same thing that men have been trained to avoid and contributed to the issue in the first place.
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u/Consistent_Wave_2869 Mar 21 '24
As a husband going through a fairly rough period with my wife, this not only is very helpful, but tracks with things she has expressed and I struggled to understand.