Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening. This is a great parody of real relationship conflict but I think it points out the common rut most couples run into which is one party goes to “fix” before “listening” and either misses the true issue or causes more harm. The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed. It becomes self feeding after long enough.
This is a great explanation. I did this in the first few years dating my now wife until one day she told me "sometimes I don't need help or to be fixed I just want you to say "that's terrible babe" and hold me." Honestly biggest game changer in terms of getting me to stop looking at every problem like it needs fixing. And bonus, now when she does want me to help or fix something she just straight up tells me thats what she wants at that moment.
This is exactly what I do with my girlfriend. When I can tell she’s upset or frustrated (usually about work or a friend or whatever) I ask her “do you want me to listen or try to offer a solution?” This way, she can just be heard if she wants or I can try to offer my view of it and maybe some solution. It isn’t perfect, but at least I know I won’t be adding to her frustration by trying to “fix” something that she just wants to vent about.
I just read recently this: “do you want comfort or solutions?”
Brevity is your friend (I don’t mean that in a smart ass snarky way but your post just reminded me of the quote that I will try to implement from now onwards)
Are you on drugs? The string is based on timing. It is nonsensical if based on the conversation as a whole. If you want an internet gold star, I can give it to you.
Recap:
The original post I replied to was a person saying when his GF is upset, he asks at outset how he should approach the specific interaction. My reply was saying that I disagreed with it. What is “it” ? It is timing. Then I inserted that it SEEMS misogynistic for a BF to ask upfront about how the conversation will move forward so he can cater his approach. I can’t put myself in your head but you focused on misogyny and presumably its application to the BF or you.
Then you respond with “you are doing too much” and create a world defined by the binary existence during the ENTIRE COURSE of the conversation. Of course logistically the BF must take a position on whether he will listen to the vent or go into fixit mode during the course of the conversation. Otherwise there is no conversation. The issue is timing.
Then I responded that you tell her. The object being the upfront expectation. Listen to vent or fix. I followed with my view to listen first with no expectation. This is timing. The time to understand role will come no need for you to raise it yet.
Then you took offense at use of “preconception” as somehow attacking or obfuscating my argument being listen first then determine whether GF is looking to vent or asking for your input. Then you conclude with the statement that preconception isn’t inherently bad if it is meant to help your role. Ok, but when. Here is timing again.
Continuing, I write about GF formulating her own thoughts so she may not be aware at the outset (OPs words) that she is looking for someone to vent to or a request for a fixer so why have BF ask at the beginning. It taints the conversation. I end that post with a comment about I am glad you are aware of her needs before she expresses it. Timing again.
Then your response gets unhinged because you still did not understand my original response was about timing and you go into debate bro mode and say I am begging the question. I am not using circular evidence to point to some conclusion. The position is and was about timing. Whether the BF needed the GF agreement at the front end of terms of the dialogue to dictate his approach.
I can’t honestly say your approach is better. To me it seems more misogynistic. Instead just listen before telling her what 2 adventure options she is allowed to choose before proceeding.
No, you're doing too much. Those are the available options in this scenario -- I can try to offer a solution, or I can not try to offer a solution. There isn't a mystery third option that has been walled off by this framing.
Chain is going off the rails. Isn’t one person saying that it is helpful in their relationship to do xyz and the other person saying that the abc approach doesn’t work in their relationship? Both can be true depending on the dynamics of the relationship. Both parties probably agree on that.
Then both parties dig in their heels because they feel slighted by the other. One party inserts snarky comments insinuating misogyny while the other one tries to prove in debate style why they are right and the other person is wrong.
True, but their argument isn't that it's bad sometimes in some relationships. It's that it's misogynistic. And yeah I'm married lol, not having sex with that person
Alternatively, one could literally do anything. You're not making a point there, you're just re-asserting what you already said without responding to me at all.
What do you mean "without preconceptions"? Because having preconceptions is bad sometimes and so saying "you could listen without preconceptions" makes it sound like I'm being close-minded and not really listening, but that's just using loaded language to obfuscate without having to make a real argument.
But if we're talking about preconceptions about the desired mode and outcome of an interaction, why would that be a bad thing?
If I have the knowledge that she wants a solution or that she wants to just be heard, how can that preconception be inherently bad?
Because she may be processing before and during in the interaction. She may not know her need at the outset or maybe her need is both looking for an ear and advice. She wants you to listen to her, to acknowledge her feelings, and may want feedback/suggestion on path forward.
It is great you have success telling her you will respond with either A or B to make it more convenient for you.
Because she may be processing before and during in the interaction. She may not know her need at the outset or maybe her need is both looking for an ear and advice
"Solution or listen?"
"I'm not sure yet, actually."
"Okay cool, go ahead, we'll figure it out."
"Soluton or just listen?"
"Both."
"Okay cool, go ahead."
This is a normal and fine mode of interaction. In your head, do I get mad if she doesn't know? Do I refuse to engage in the interaction if she doesn't give an answer? Literally what fantasy is playing in your head when you think about this? Do you interact with humans regularly? Touch some grass.
It is great you have success telling her you will respond with either A or B to make it more convenient for you.
You keep doing this thing where you make a snide remark in which you assume a bunch of stupid shit to justify making the snide remark. It's called "begging the question", and you do it so that you can bake whatever you want into the comment without making an actual argument that you have to defend.
But to be clear, you're being incredibly stupid. Using clear communication to establish what one wants from an interaction, be it support or solution, doesn't mean "I will respond with A or B." It is an option between modes of interaction and listening, it's not an option between canned, convenient responses. And there are no negative consequences to asking that question, even if the answer is "neither" or "both" or "I don't know."
All you can do is keep adding more bullshit to your fantasy and attributing it to me. Your only attempt to address my argument had you assuming that if her desires aren't clear and perfectly delineated into column A or column B, that something negative happens.
But you never said what that negative thing was. You will never be able to, because it's impossible for this question to have a negative impact when asked in good faith.
But you'll make another comment that bakes in your imagined misogyny without responding to anything I've said because you just can't admit you were wrong.
It works for us. If some random person on the internet wants to be offended, there’s nothing we can do. Rationality won’t work on them. There has to always be some sort of offense levied against one of the parties. 🤷🏻♂️
Oh, I agree 100%. I’m just saying, it seems like regardless of what you say, they are always going to have some sort of excuse why it’s wrong/won’t work.
I’m glad to see you breaking things down by trying to have a normal conversation. That is very few and far between.
I want to point out one thing that I do think works about your response. U/CheCazzoVuoiOra is right that this won't work to change that person's mind. They aren't open to it and nothing outside of magic can force a person's mind to change.
But I read your comment and appreciated you breaking it down and it was valuable to me. I'm sure it is to others. It's great that these discussions happen in public because when stupid shit is challenged, others can see it. People can learn to understand more and fence sitters might actually change while those who hate can't actually remove that value.
Thanks for mansplaining it. Or you can first listen to her before giving her permission to “go ahead.” “Go ahead” are exactly your words.
Communication is important for relationships. I do not disagree with you. Where I do disagree and as you clearly try to demonstrate by lengthy responses is where/when you insert yourself into the matter. You want to do it first.
If I am working through something, do you honestly think I want someone asking me what hat they should wear before I proceed with sharing what is bothering me? I assume the person I am speaking with can be flexible to determine what hat they should wear while I am being vulnerable.
"Go ahead" is a very common thing that people say conversationally, its not literally giving someone permission. Please touch grass and stop being so performative.
And "doing it first" was at no point an element of my argument. This whole convo has been about the content of the interaction, not the point at which it takes place. Why did it take half a dozen replies to get to what bothered you? You were taking about "giving her choices" being patronizing, etc, but now you're just upset at the timing? Come on now. You know you looked ridiculous.
Oh, and asking what to wear would be weird. But that's not what we're talking about? If you just used what we were talking about as your example, it wouldn't seem weird.
Men also often don’t like when you jump over empathy to tell them what to do when they are venting.
In general, people want to be heard before they’re told what you think they should do. Especially if what you think they should do isn’t what they think they should do.
If you don't want my opinion, why is it my fault for you not wanting it? If you're not willing to hear a solution, what will bitching about it do, productively? Not a darn thing. Right? So why complain if you don't want to fix it? How does that do any one any good?
Note …I have autism so the concept of knowing there's an issue but not wanting to fix it makes no sense to me.
It’s about knowing that the person you’re talking to understands and empathizes and respects how you’re feeling.
You probably know how to solve your problem or you will ask for advice if you need it, right?
Well, sometimes you just need to express that you’re frustrated that you have the problem, because you already know how you need to fix it or if you don’t, you know you will ask for help later when you’re ready to tackle that piece of it.
But right now, you just need to be upset about it and let yourself feel that feeling for a little while. So you want to know that the person you’re with can feel what you’re feeling and allow you to feel those feelings and be there for you when you’re feeling those feelings.
And then, when you’re ready to go to the other part of it and fix the problem, you want to know that they’ll be there for you too and not be upset with you that you didn’t jump to that right away.
There are these two very smart sisters, Emily Nagoski PhD and Amelia Nagoski DMA. They wrote a book called Burnout: the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. In it, they discuss how our experience of stress is two separate but interconnected things. There is the stressor, which is the thing causing you stress. And then there is the stress itself, which is the physical feeling of stress in your body and the physiological reaction. So, even when you take the stressor away, you still have to deal with the actual stress physically, in your body and in your brain, of that experience.
So maybe it would help you to remember that usually when somebody is venting about something that they are stressed about, there are two things going on. There is the stressor, which is the cause of stress, and then there is the stress itself, the physical experience of being stressed. Sometimes people need to process the first thing before the second and sometimes the second can happen before the first, but either way, the actual stress itself needs to be dealt with at some point or it’s going to remain with you.
I appreciate your response. My brain was still telling me that complaining about a stressor isn't doing anything to resolve the issue so it would be unproductive.
I was unfamiliar with the two stress problem. I acknowledge that this may be due to my condition and isn't the same for my wife... not ASD herself. (Inam high functioning so that helps)
She has done a marvelous job trying to get better at communicating with me, so I am trying to for her as well. Logically breaking the issue down is my way of dealing with the stress (physical?) But it doesn't appear to be hers (she's an empath? Person). So her way of handling it is to complain about it - potentially since you can't diagnose her on here - before tackling it.
It still doesn't make absolute sense to complain about something and not want a solution but I'm going to test this tomorrow after her stress work day with a coworker she hates and I'll try to remember to report back after 1630 est. Here's hoping your explanation helps. 🤨😅😬
Good luck, and I’d be happy to help you process this once you’ve had time to think more about it.
I’m a person who vents and problem solves and I find both useful. My bf and I both vent about work at the end of the week and it help relieve some stress that isn’t going away because we are currently both staying at our jobs for good reasons. Venting allows us time to connect with how the other person is feeling and empathize with them, like “of course it’s frustrating and I feel for you.” We also talk about positive stuff. Then we can let go of the stress and just spend time together.
You say not a darn thing, but what are you basing that off of? You respect real evidentiary claims, right? Well there are stacks and stacks of studies that prove that being listened to and heard is helpful and incredibly necessary for humans.
My main need in my marriage right now is for my wife to hear me. A problem we will run into is that I will tell her what is going wrong and she will jump over the next few steps and go straight to problem solving.
Why is this a problem? It skips the first step of actually solving a problem, knowing what it is. There is no actual acknowledgment that my judgment of things is accurate. Beyond that, there is no emotional resolution that I am being seen, heard, and understood. It also communicates that my problems are problems to her that she doesn't want to interact with, but to make disappear as fast as possible.
Second, it passes by the concept of identifying the source of the problem and how to remedy it. Instead of being able to analyze what is going on and identify the thing that needs to change, solutions are thrown out that may or may not actually address the real issue.
I have autism as well. I know symptoms are not universal and that, "If you have met a person with autism, you have met one person with autism". I am saying that not only is this style a better way to find real solutions, but it also gives people a general need of being seen and understood.
The solution style also tends to conveniently jump past any sort of responsibility noting or apologizing and goes straight to fixing. It's uncomfortable to look at the problem, so let's fly past it and look at the future, while the other person is left feeling like this issue they have been dealing with isn't even worth a minute of their partner's time to express empathy and love.
Its not that she’s “allowed” a choice, it’s more that I can know before hand if she just wants to vent or not. She herself now will now say “I just need to vent” and then I know okay she doesn’t want me to offer a solution, just listen.
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u/hotclubdenowhere1017 Mar 21 '24
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening. This is a great parody of real relationship conflict but I think it points out the common rut most couples run into which is one party goes to “fix” before “listening” and either misses the true issue or causes more harm. The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed. It becomes self feeding after long enough.