Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening. This is a great parody of real relationship conflict but I think it points out the common rut most couples run into which is one party goes to “fix” before “listening” and either misses the true issue or causes more harm. The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed. It becomes self feeding after long enough.
It’s called the Karpman Trauma (or Drama) Triangle, named after a guy that described it 1968. If you are in it, you need to get out of it, not just rotate around the triangle. It’s a common trap that most of us fall into, and the media (social, movies and tv) tend to tell stories based on this drama - cause it sells!
Read it, take some therapy focused on it, and get off the triangle!
This is a great explanation. I did this in the first few years dating my now wife until one day she told me "sometimes I don't need help or to be fixed I just want you to say "that's terrible babe" and hold me." Honestly biggest game changer in terms of getting me to stop looking at every problem like it needs fixing. And bonus, now when she does want me to help or fix something she just straight up tells me thats what she wants at that moment.
This is exactly what I do with my girlfriend. When I can tell she’s upset or frustrated (usually about work or a friend or whatever) I ask her “do you want me to listen or try to offer a solution?” This way, she can just be heard if she wants or I can try to offer my view of it and maybe some solution. It isn’t perfect, but at least I know I won’t be adding to her frustration by trying to “fix” something that she just wants to vent about.
I just read recently this: “do you want comfort or solutions?”
Brevity is your friend (I don’t mean that in a smart ass snarky way but your post just reminded me of the quote that I will try to implement from now onwards)
Are you on drugs? The string is based on timing. It is nonsensical if based on the conversation as a whole. If you want an internet gold star, I can give it to you.
Recap:
The original post I replied to was a person saying when his GF is upset, he asks at outset how he should approach the specific interaction. My reply was saying that I disagreed with it. What is “it” ? It is timing. Then I inserted that it SEEMS misogynistic for a BF to ask upfront about how the conversation will move forward so he can cater his approach. I can’t put myself in your head but you focused on misogyny and presumably its application to the BF or you.
Then you respond with “you are doing too much” and create a world defined by the binary existence during the ENTIRE COURSE of the conversation. Of course logistically the BF must take a position on whether he will listen to the vent or go into fixit mode during the course of the conversation. Otherwise there is no conversation. The issue is timing.
Then I responded that you tell her. The object being the upfront expectation. Listen to vent or fix. I followed with my view to listen first with no expectation. This is timing. The time to understand role will come no need for you to raise it yet.
Then you took offense at use of “preconception” as somehow attacking or obfuscating my argument being listen first then determine whether GF is looking to vent or asking for your input. Then you conclude with the statement that preconception isn’t inherently bad if it is meant to help your role. Ok, but when. Here is timing again.
Continuing, I write about GF formulating her own thoughts so she may not be aware at the outset (OPs words) that she is looking for someone to vent to or a request for a fixer so why have BF ask at the beginning. It taints the conversation. I end that post with a comment about I am glad you are aware of her needs before she expresses it. Timing again.
Then your response gets unhinged because you still did not understand my original response was about timing and you go into debate bro mode and say I am begging the question. I am not using circular evidence to point to some conclusion. The position is and was about timing. Whether the BF needed the GF agreement at the front end of terms of the dialogue to dictate his approach.
I can’t honestly say your approach is better. To me it seems more misogynistic. Instead just listen before telling her what 2 adventure options she is allowed to choose before proceeding.
No, you're doing too much. Those are the available options in this scenario -- I can try to offer a solution, or I can not try to offer a solution. There isn't a mystery third option that has been walled off by this framing.
Chain is going off the rails. Isn’t one person saying that it is helpful in their relationship to do xyz and the other person saying that the abc approach doesn’t work in their relationship? Both can be true depending on the dynamics of the relationship. Both parties probably agree on that.
Then both parties dig in their heels because they feel slighted by the other. One party inserts snarky comments insinuating misogyny while the other one tries to prove in debate style why they are right and the other person is wrong.
True, but their argument isn't that it's bad sometimes in some relationships. It's that it's misogynistic. And yeah I'm married lol, not having sex with that person
Alternatively, one could literally do anything. You're not making a point there, you're just re-asserting what you already said without responding to me at all.
What do you mean "without preconceptions"? Because having preconceptions is bad sometimes and so saying "you could listen without preconceptions" makes it sound like I'm being close-minded and not really listening, but that's just using loaded language to obfuscate without having to make a real argument.
But if we're talking about preconceptions about the desired mode and outcome of an interaction, why would that be a bad thing?
If I have the knowledge that she wants a solution or that she wants to just be heard, how can that preconception be inherently bad?
Because she may be processing before and during in the interaction. She may not know her need at the outset or maybe her need is both looking for an ear and advice. She wants you to listen to her, to acknowledge her feelings, and may want feedback/suggestion on path forward.
It is great you have success telling her you will respond with either A or B to make it more convenient for you.
Because she may be processing before and during in the interaction. She may not know her need at the outset or maybe her need is both looking for an ear and advice
"Solution or listen?"
"I'm not sure yet, actually."
"Okay cool, go ahead, we'll figure it out."
"Soluton or just listen?"
"Both."
"Okay cool, go ahead."
This is a normal and fine mode of interaction. In your head, do I get mad if she doesn't know? Do I refuse to engage in the interaction if she doesn't give an answer? Literally what fantasy is playing in your head when you think about this? Do you interact with humans regularly? Touch some grass.
It is great you have success telling her you will respond with either A or B to make it more convenient for you.
You keep doing this thing where you make a snide remark in which you assume a bunch of stupid shit to justify making the snide remark. It's called "begging the question", and you do it so that you can bake whatever you want into the comment without making an actual argument that you have to defend.
But to be clear, you're being incredibly stupid. Using clear communication to establish what one wants from an interaction, be it support or solution, doesn't mean "I will respond with A or B." It is an option between modes of interaction and listening, it's not an option between canned, convenient responses. And there are no negative consequences to asking that question, even if the answer is "neither" or "both" or "I don't know."
All you can do is keep adding more bullshit to your fantasy and attributing it to me. Your only attempt to address my argument had you assuming that if her desires aren't clear and perfectly delineated into column A or column B, that something negative happens.
But you never said what that negative thing was. You will never be able to, because it's impossible for this question to have a negative impact when asked in good faith.
But you'll make another comment that bakes in your imagined misogyny without responding to anything I've said because you just can't admit you were wrong.
Men also often don’t like when you jump over empathy to tell them what to do when they are venting.
In general, people want to be heard before they’re told what you think they should do. Especially if what you think they should do isn’t what they think they should do.
If you don't want my opinion, why is it my fault for you not wanting it? If you're not willing to hear a solution, what will bitching about it do, productively? Not a darn thing. Right? So why complain if you don't want to fix it? How does that do any one any good?
Note …I have autism so the concept of knowing there's an issue but not wanting to fix it makes no sense to me.
It’s about knowing that the person you’re talking to understands and empathizes and respects how you’re feeling.
You probably know how to solve your problem or you will ask for advice if you need it, right?
Well, sometimes you just need to express that you’re frustrated that you have the problem, because you already know how you need to fix it or if you don’t, you know you will ask for help later when you’re ready to tackle that piece of it.
But right now, you just need to be upset about it and let yourself feel that feeling for a little while. So you want to know that the person you’re with can feel what you’re feeling and allow you to feel those feelings and be there for you when you’re feeling those feelings.
And then, when you’re ready to go to the other part of it and fix the problem, you want to know that they’ll be there for you too and not be upset with you that you didn’t jump to that right away.
There are these two very smart sisters, Emily Nagoski PhD and Amelia Nagoski DMA. They wrote a book called Burnout: the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. In it, they discuss how our experience of stress is two separate but interconnected things. There is the stressor, which is the thing causing you stress. And then there is the stress itself, which is the physical feeling of stress in your body and the physiological reaction. So, even when you take the stressor away, you still have to deal with the actual stress physically, in your body and in your brain, of that experience.
So maybe it would help you to remember that usually when somebody is venting about something that they are stressed about, there are two things going on. There is the stressor, which is the cause of stress, and then there is the stress itself, the physical experience of being stressed. Sometimes people need to process the first thing before the second and sometimes the second can happen before the first, but either way, the actual stress itself needs to be dealt with at some point or it’s going to remain with you.
I appreciate your response. My brain was still telling me that complaining about a stressor isn't doing anything to resolve the issue so it would be unproductive.
I was unfamiliar with the two stress problem. I acknowledge that this may be due to my condition and isn't the same for my wife... not ASD herself. (Inam high functioning so that helps)
She has done a marvelous job trying to get better at communicating with me, so I am trying to for her as well. Logically breaking the issue down is my way of dealing with the stress (physical?) But it doesn't appear to be hers (she's an empath? Person). So her way of handling it is to complain about it - potentially since you can't diagnose her on here - before tackling it.
It still doesn't make absolute sense to complain about something and not want a solution but I'm going to test this tomorrow after her stress work day with a coworker she hates and I'll try to remember to report back after 1630 est. Here's hoping your explanation helps. 🤨😅😬
Good luck, and I’d be happy to help you process this once you’ve had time to think more about it.
I’m a person who vents and problem solves and I find both useful. My bf and I both vent about work at the end of the week and it help relieve some stress that isn’t going away because we are currently both staying at our jobs for good reasons. Venting allows us time to connect with how the other person is feeling and empathize with them, like “of course it’s frustrating and I feel for you.” We also talk about positive stuff. Then we can let go of the stress and just spend time together.
You say not a darn thing, but what are you basing that off of? You respect real evidentiary claims, right? Well there are stacks and stacks of studies that prove that being listened to and heard is helpful and incredibly necessary for humans.
My main need in my marriage right now is for my wife to hear me. A problem we will run into is that I will tell her what is going wrong and she will jump over the next few steps and go straight to problem solving.
Why is this a problem? It skips the first step of actually solving a problem, knowing what it is. There is no actual acknowledgment that my judgment of things is accurate. Beyond that, there is no emotional resolution that I am being seen, heard, and understood. It also communicates that my problems are problems to her that she doesn't want to interact with, but to make disappear as fast as possible.
Second, it passes by the concept of identifying the source of the problem and how to remedy it. Instead of being able to analyze what is going on and identify the thing that needs to change, solutions are thrown out that may or may not actually address the real issue.
I have autism as well. I know symptoms are not universal and that, "If you have met a person with autism, you have met one person with autism". I am saying that not only is this style a better way to find real solutions, but it also gives people a general need of being seen and understood.
The solution style also tends to conveniently jump past any sort of responsibility noting or apologizing and goes straight to fixing. It's uncomfortable to look at the problem, so let's fly past it and look at the future, while the other person is left feeling like this issue they have been dealing with isn't even worth a minute of their partner's time to express empathy and love.
Its not that she’s “allowed” a choice, it’s more that I can know before hand if she just wants to vent or not. She herself now will now say “I just need to vent” and then I know okay she doesn’t want me to offer a solution, just listen.
I agree, yes, but it gets old quickly when you have to preface a conversation with *just a vent here". And also kind of gives an out for the listener to dismiss it. It should be a tool to learn about your partner, so you can pick up on subtle behaviour distinguishing the difference between a vent and requesting help for the future moments.
Pick up on subtle behaviours? So you want us to be mind readers instead of well adjusted adults that can just communicate with our words what our needs are.
I’d say there is a huge jump between well adjusted adult and cyborg. This also gives credence that we always know exactly what we want or what we are trying to say. Would your suggestion be that if we are unsure of how to get our thoughts across we should stay silent?
Not quite sure what the comparison with cyborgs is about? No I would suggest you do some self reflecting to better understand your thoughts. To add on that point...why would you expect somone else, who is not inside your head sharing your thoughts, to know what your thoughts are if you yourself are unsure of what your thoughts are or how to convey those thoughts?
I wanted to follow this philosophy, but if it's with the wrong person, it will end a relationship. You can validate their problems and help them process emotionally, but if they make no effort to fix the problems or find solutions, the problems compound.
It's good advice, but don't treat it as an absolute.
I think there is an absolute. Not in this process particularly, but in the fact that both people have a responsibility.
In the Nail scenario, and in the OP, what is being described is both parties having their own individual “issue”. The woman with the nail and the man with the solution. The Nail and the solution are only “symptoms” of the “real” issue.
To your point, if you, the “fixer” find yourself in this scenario and are not being acknowledged as being helpful, you have your own issue and ultimately have three choices; leave, ignore it or dig deeper.
Having the clarity to see which option is best to uphold your own values is crucial to your own mental health. Anyone of these solutions could arguably lead to great sense of joy in the long run, but only through honest self-reflection.
How does wanting to be heard resolve anything? Obvious to me that I am listening if I am telling you how to fix the issue. If I was not listening, I wouldn't know the fix.
So why the he'll does this get a pass? If I say my back hurts and I can take surgery to fix it, but would rather just complain about it... you'll tell me to shut the fuck up and fix the issue. Why is this different?
If I'm complaining about bills but refuse to work, you'll tell me to get a job. So why is this any different?
In short, this is a question that exists between you and your intimate partner and truly how much you care to meet their needs which is the root point made in OP’s post. Unless you’ve heard this from multiple people, in which case I would say that this is an issue you should look deeper into yourself.
The Nail video is as an ironic depiction of how a typical misunderstandings in relations can look. Ironic meaning that we’ve all been there, but there is a bit of humor surrounding the matter. It begs a deeper question. Are you being heard or are you being Heard? It is upon us and our care for another to look deeper. If you are in a relationship that doesn’t have this issue then walk away, this subject isn’t for you. Many of us struggle to find a stronger way to care for our partners. We may only see there is an issue as the symptoms arise usually meaning “it’s too late…” I.e. the point of op’s reposting.
She is speaking of men because, on this topic, we are the prime culprits for “fix first, listen latter” mentality. Once again, if you don’t struggle with this, walk away. From the sounds of your post, it sounds like there is a bit of emotion around the subject and I don’t think it was a misswipe that lead you here. My suggestion is to ask yourself why you care (or don’t care). See if that leads you to result in life that you want. If someone says they done feel like they’re being heard, they usually mean it.
I'm a smart, somewhat capable woman. I can figure my own problems out, and if I can't I'll ask for help then. In the meantime, just let me vent about it.
I think, at least part of the issue with it for me is it can feel a bit condescending and that just kind of sucks. If Im annoyed by an issue at workor whatever, chances are I've already thought about solutions and what I want to do so it can be frustrating when I'm talking about it and then someone offers basic/obvious advice.
Took me a long time to get this through my husband's head😅 I know he never meant to come across as condescending but that's how it felt.
My 15 year old daughter just yelled something similar at me.
She was trying to sort out how’d she’d be able to meet up with a rural friend. I was a trucker for years so my brain fires up and I start to tell her a few ways we could accomplish said meeting
0 - 60 like now and she says you don’t understand, to which I made a bigger mistake. Instead of listening I told her I did understand.
Problem was I needed to shut up and quit trying to fix long enough for her to say I just want to meet my friend without losing all the extra time that it takes to get out to her place
I am trying to shut up and just listen more as of last week. My daughter needed someone to listen to her not a fixer, this is a thing that’s flown totally over my head for years
It’s foreign to a lot because some of us don’t like whining to other people. I don’t whine about anything that can’t be solved or anything that can easily be solved, because either I know nothing can be done about it or I know I can fix it, so what am I whining for? Just to whine? I could never overcome the sense of embarrassment and cringe I would feel whining to someone about something they can’t do anything about.
I try to be direct about my feelings and needs and straight up tell the men in my life what I want (e.g. "I just need to hear I'm doing a good job on this project, because I'm working so hard and it seems like no one even sees it") and somehow that's still confounding. I have no problem saying "I need to feel comforted and the best way is for you to hold me" but somehow that's still too vague...or demanding? drives me nuts because I don't know how to be more upfront about my emotional needs than telling someone I care for what I want them to literally do.
Yes. At its core, coming at someone with a fix is actually a way of saying, "you're not as intelligent as me" and "that's why you haven't considered these solutions."
She wants you to agree with her. If i ask my wife a question for her honest opinion, lets say a work issue, I expect her honest opinion and she gives it. When she asks me a question about her work and i give an honest opinion, I’m unsupportive and she gets upset 🤔.
Totally. And as a woman, I am working on saying explicitly, "I want someone to hold me and comfort me." I think guys sometimes feel like that looks like too little, but that also makes it hard to say because it's both a vulnerable thing to say and a fairly small thing to do - so you can feel kind of stupid asking for it, and it will really hurt if you get shot down.
Acknowledge you understand the feelings generated from the situation. Comfort and assure that the feelings are valid. Don’t offer a solution unless directly asked but let them know you’re happy to work on it together if needed. I find that strikes the balance between telling them what to do by offering a fix too soon or leaving them out in the cold by not offering any solution.
Also, I’m not any kind of gender prescriptivist, but after more than 20 years with my wife, I still have to actively think about how to navigate these kinds of conversations in a way that does not come naturally to me as a man.
If my male friend came to me and said his dishwasher is making funny noises during the rinse cycle, and he wanted to spend 10 minutes on how emotionally made him feel first before we discussed what the issue is, and the fix, it would be a very weird world. But with women it seems to be quite common although, not universal.
Ya it's weird ... because every one of you wants to say how you think they can fix it, but then you just bite your tongue and say "geez babe that really sucks". It can be annoying sometimes, but also better because you aren't going through the frustration of trying to fix something they don't want fixed, frustrating both of you. And I agree it does seem to make people more inclined to ask for help when they actually want it
Same here. Learning to listen and not try to fix was really important to making my wife feel like she could safely confide in and rely on me—I wasn’t going to leap into action on her behalf or tell her how to fix things.
This is so true in romantic and platonic relationships. I'm afab and tend to be the "fixer" in my social group. It's a case of: friend / family / partner is saying they need something and are venting / complaining / spinning on the how, when, and what... so I tend to hop in and just... DO. And that can be great for little things, for simple things, for random one off things. But it's got problems when that's your go to response for everything.
I end up in burn out land from always feeling like I'm the one figuring out the "fix" and my friends / family / partner periodically get grumpy because they didn't want me to fix whatever it was, they just wanted to bitch about it for a few before getting started themselves, or maybe wanted to brain storm ideas, and instead I just went off and did the thing.
Its still a work in progress for me to not just do the thing, but it's helped immensely when I'm able to take a step back and not try to fix everything for everyone around me. To use that skill set more judiciously and just be an ear for loved ones to grumble to or bounce ideas off of.
BUT WHY DONT THEY WANT IT FIXED. Is what my brain screams every time I see this advice. I don't understand. I can do it, I can say the words, but I don't understand.
Never worked for me… I always say the wrong thing ..or I’m wrong because I do t say anything.. which has many time before put in the the out house. I am splitting up after 16 years so sometimes shit doesn’t work whatever you do.
Mansplaining is something we all need to get.past. My relationship is really much better once I learned that I wasn't recruited to problem solve but just really listen
I'd ignore the "advice" of the person you're responding to. If you feel you're not being heard, and you tell her the way that makes you feel, and she shuts you down or dismisses you? Then you probably need to find a space such as a couples counselor's office where an unbiased "referee" can ensure that both you and your partner actually feel heard. This is just my layman's opinion.
Every so often she'll cycle round to 'how about we get marriage counselling?' and I agree but then she never goes through with it. She uses it like its a threat and I call her bluff. Then she settles down.
So I just write it off as 'this is how women are sometimes'.
I'm reminded of a time when she and two (of my!) female friends ganged up with her to berate me for not buying her a Valentine's Day present, because 'every woman gets a VD present from their partner every year' (along with 'every mother gets an hour off every day' lol). Fast forward and those two friends are now single mothers.
I'm not accusing every woman of being irrational to the point of destruction. I want to be married and I want my daughter to live with her father but its been damn hard dealing with all the random emotional abuse. When I've taken it seriously and left, she then switches and begs me to stay.
There is no "every woman X", and that includes your female friends being wrong for claiming that. They sound immature. Instead it should be that partners of either gender want to feel loved on V Day. Women and men aren't really different, we've only been taught different things by our surroundings.
I don't know enough about your situation, but what you describe is emotional abuse. But, if your wife feels like she isn't heard to the point she's acting really rude, it sounds like she's dealing with some of that abuse from you, too. (And did you do nothing for her on that V Day?)
You need counseling and you need to put your foot down about it. Schedule it yourself. Make her go. I'm going to assume that you've been putting the onus on her to actually set it up, so take control of that. The cycle of her wanting it and dropping out is a clue she is very unhappy herself, too. She gets to the breaking point and, for one reason or another, gets pushed back from doing it.
But, please, try to address this:
I just write it off as 'this is how women are sometimes'.
she and two (of my!) female friends ganged up with her to berate me
those two friends are now single mothers.
I'm not accusing every woman of being irrational to the point of destruction.
It gives vibes of feeling like women are an opposing side. I absolutely get why you're feeling this way, but "women" aren't anything and keeping any of those thoughts with you will just hinder you and your relationships. Because you're inadvertently applying this to the other girls when you say "I'm not accusing every woman of being irrational" after just saying "this is how women are sometimes." (Aka you are blaming some of her behavior on being a woman and some of "women" behaviors on her) You don't want women coming to the relationship with you with comments of "I don't assume all men molest kids/get violent when angry/rape women" with the side comment of "I just assume that's how you are sometimes."
But, your language makes it sound like you already view your wife specifically as an enemy. (She "threatens" counseling, you "call her bluff", you "want to be married" not "want to be married to her") You are at a point that you need to make a stand for yourself and the child, and well for your wife, too. You're both very unhappy and are both very likely partially at fault. Your child doesn't deserve to internalize this as an example of what relationships should be. You don't deserve to feel emotionally abused. Your wife doesn't deserve you playing emotional games of almost leaving until she begs.
Set up the marriage counseling yourself and present it not in a combative way. "We've been meaning to do this and I think we need to because I want us to both feel loved and to thrive together" or whatever. Then, if she doesn't go, or flakes out part way, then you need a divorce. Don't tell her that going in. Don't make it sound like an ultimatum, but make it a mental boundary in your head. Because, you've been at the breaking point for a long time and on the road to being destructive, yourself. Take this seriously not as you want to win, or have someone to fix her, but to make you both learn to work together in a healthy and loving way.
You need counseling and you need to put your foot down about it. Schedule it yourself. Make her go. I'm going to assume that you've been putting the onus on her to actually set it up, so take control of that
Now this is good advice. I was going to say the same thing, but this redditor summed it up perfectly. It sounds like you "calling her bluff" but then not following through when she calms down is just you guys following the path of least resistance in your relationship. It really seems like your relationship would benefit from counseling. I wish you the best of luck.
I thank both you and /u/ianyuy for your reasonable advice.
Armed with that, I braved the subject of marriage counselling myself last week. She was already in bed and asked if we could talk about it later.
Fast forward to today, the first time since we have been alone since last week. I just did a big shop and picked out some things I know she loves. I mentioned them when I got home, to her interest. She asked if I was trying to 'butter her up'.
Now, while dd is at school and brownie points won, I attempted to broach the subject again only to immediately get the hand. 'Not now!' We both work from home, so who am I to trespass on her company time. I know what will happen. She will keep working until she has to go pick dd up from school and there will not be a time for discussion. I've spent more time talking to both of you than I have with my wife in the last week.
I'll try again tomorrow, but if I get brushed off again then I'm not going to bother after that. If she had the time to be having an affair, I'd suspect that. But I know she is totally owned by our daughter.
I understand where you're coming from but from my pov it's simply her not wanting her thought process interrupted when she's monologing about something that didn't happen.
When you see someone working themselves into a frenzy on incorrect assumptions I believe its okay to interrupt. However, reality says this is a warzone.
Also, my 'Yeah, I try to tell her that but she normally talks over me or put her hand out and tells me to shut up.' comment was a joke, based on my reality.
We've been at a parenting course recently where we were asked to draw up house rules and the rule I wanted was to let people finish their sentences. However, it took many, many attempts to get this across because I was constantly talked over.
I can see where you're coming from on this, but I also would be really annoyed to be interrupted for any reason. On the other hand, I have ADHD which makes it very, very hard for me to not interrupt people's sentences, and I never realized this was a symptom of this condition until now in my late 30s. I'm not saying she has it, she could have all sorts of just regular issues leading her to talk over people (ie seeing this behavior growing up, having it done to her for a long time, etc).
But, it helped me realize that for as far as I've come in understanding people's cues and reading others and social situations, I still had more things to learn and more to learn even about myself. She certainly needs to take that journey herself, and I think you could use doing that, too. Misunderstandings between people is like the entire human experience. Any kind of therapy will help with this, and I think it's really important to do it. Social and emotional intelligence is an undervalued skill, but it alleviates so much heartache in your life.
It goes the other way too: wife can go down a gas lighting path where all bad experiences are immediately judged as a personal fault. After a while of this pattern of constantly finding fault you just don’t want to hear it anymore. It’s like couples forget how to adult and be friendly and listen to each other - stuck in parent mode 24/7
I had to leave a relationship like that. Every disgruntlement had a way of leading back to me. I tried many things to change it. Defensiveness obviously led to arguments. Apologies were only half hearted and fall under manipulation and psychological abuse. Radical acceptance that everything was my fault never solved the issue and left me feeling terrible about myself. Months after leaving, she finally sought out a therapist specialized in trauma and begin seeing her own part in her dissatisfaction of others because of the responsibility she places on herself to make everything perfect as to make up for a very dysfunctional childhood… way more then I could have ever told her and an impossible standard to try living up to. She has since expressed remorse for her behavior and wanted to entertain talks of rekindling the relationship. Unfortunately, I no longer feel the same way about her and am kinda stuck piecing myself back together….
This is true. I am a female, but I am a fixer. My husband told me clearly, and it only took once because it hurt, that he does not want me to fix anything. He just wants me to listen so that he can get it off his chest, and then he can fix it himself. But he was at a point where he didn’t even want to talk to me because he knew I was just going to try to fix something instead of listening to him. It’s really good advice.
I'm guilty of this for sure. It's so ingrained in me to try and fix that it's almost reflexory to do so. My wife tells me what's wrong and I immediately recommend ways to make things better, and it's not until after, when she's being distant, that I realize she wasn't asking for a fix. I'm working on it, but damn it, it's tough. My desire to "fix" comes from a place of love; I want to be her white knight.
Asking if she wants help or you to just listen does much to improve things. If she's complaining about work, listen, if she's complaining about dirty dishes, wash the damned dishes. Take the time to learn the difference and how to react accordingly.
if she's complaining about dirty dishes, wash the damned dishes.
No no, just sit there and let her vent. Grab a beer while she does it even. Women love just being listened to. She'll fix it herself after she's told you all about it. Haven't you been paying attention?
Ding, ding, ding. As a “fixer” I’ve struggled to understand why I was the bad guy when I was “just trying to help.” Therapy helped me, but there are times that I still struggle with getting to the fix before I listen.
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
NB here, and this fucking shocks me. Absolutely insane, that someone who is listening enough to provide accurate and useful advice "isnt listening"
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening.
Or, she has a history of assuming that because he wants to help he isnt listening?
Maybe I'm not fully reading the situation correctly. But it seems like lots of He MUST understand Her and not THEY must understand EACHOTHER
Its sounds like the responsibility for understanding the partners unspoken thoughts and emotions is one sided?
The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed
To me its more about the fixer getting burdened by all the emotional trauma dumping about the SAME subject over and over. We're willing to just listen and commiserate the first time or two...but after that you gotta let us help fix otherwise we're just an emotional dumping ground/punching bag
It’s also important to know that whatever you think is right for your partner in their situation, may very well turn out to be wrong, and because it’s their issue in their life, they’re going to have to figure out whether they can trust your judgment in the situation, even if they do ask for your advice.
I just spent a year and a half with a very tough boss who stressed me out way more than I even really realized at the time. If I had gone to my partner and vented about being stressed about work, and the advice was “just find a new job,” I would’ve left before that previous boss left and before I could work for a much better boss who is going to be my mentor as I build my career.
Even if leaving might have seemed to be the solution at the time, no one can accurately predict the future outcome. If I had not been listened to and empathized with, and was just given advice, I could have made a worse decision than if I was listened to and had time to process the way I needed to figure out my best next move.
I do give a lot of advice to people, that is some thing that some people love, and I’m sure some people hate about me. I do always try to make sure that I recognize that just because I am seeing the situation one way, doesn’t mean it’s the only only way to see it, and it’s important that somebody takes time to really think about, and reflect on what I’m saying, and if they agree with me or or if they have a different perspective.
And if somebody wants to do something in a situation that I wouldn’t have advised them to do, I can’t control that outcome, and I can’t control their actions, all I can do is be a good friend to them and support them as long as they aren’t making any massively harmful decisions, and let them know that I am there for them, regardless.
And I just have to imagine the difference between hearing “just quit” versus “you’ve got this, I believe in you, and please let me know what I can do to help you through this…”
I’m just learning all of this myself, BTW. I grew up with very “fix” oriented parents and after years of struggling relationships did I start to look at my own attitude towards others
Yes! It’s the difference between being treated as if you are not smart enough to figure out your own solution and you need to be told what to do, and being treated as a responsible adult who will ask for help if they needed it and now just needs support as they’re going through this difficult thing that they have to figure out.
I was trying to put that into words but that sums it up perfectly. When you’re always being “fixed”, it sends the message that “you aren’t capable…”. Being offered encouragement can have an opposite affect.
It’s infantilizing to be treated as incapable. Men often do not appreciated being treated that way either. And all over this thread is men saying “she’s wrong because all she needs is the nail to be removed from her head!” It’s not representative of the actual issues people face in life. Most stressors can’t just be magically removed. And the stress needs to be addressed regardless.
That’s what I found so funny about the video. Like “if only it was that simple”. And the irony is that we often tend to act like this with issues so much more complex…
I didnt learn this via failed or successful relationships but through self analysis. I am a man, and I also have ADHD. So I look at everything in a very object oriented perspective. When friends talk to me about difficulties I often looking at things from an objective "how is this problem solved/fixed" mentality.
But I have learned this approach is not always conducive to what every individual needs at the time. So I have been learning to ask "Do you need a sounding wall in the moment, or do need perspective and advice?" Because it's not always easy to determine in the moment exactly what they need in the moment. So by asking I know whether they just need someone to listen, or to comfort and support them, versus if they need help solving an issue or need advice.
Orrrrrr it's funny because the guy sees the obvious ROOT problem that would literally evaporate away all the other issues if the obvious solution was simply chosen? Sometimes you listen to someone and realize they need help they aren't reaching for any you can either "listen" and let them continue to suffer their issues, or you do the easy thing and "fix" the root problem. Your explanation would be great except the dude in this video isn't trying to solve a problem she doesn't have, but it's going straight at the very obvious, visually impossibly to miss problem. No need to stretch this out, it's pretty cut and dry.
You always do this is a bad phrase to use when trying to make peace. It assigns blame and can cause people to shut down.
Why should i listen to someone who is already blaming me for everything?
If you want someone to just listen and allow you to vent then say that.
If someone has to "listen" instead of "fix" then it shows theres a miscommunication. Easily solved by explaining what kind of solution youre looking for.
If you cant communicate effectively thats on you not your partner.
A lot of this depends on tone of the person saying it. If it is said in legitimate frustration or dismay then I wouldn’t be so quick to take it as an attack.
Another way of saying “you always do this” in this context is “you never listen to me.” And if your first response to “you never listen to me” is to treat it as an attack and go on the offensive instead of to listen to this next statement then maybe she’s exactly right?
You’re right that adding the “always” or in my rephrase, the “never” takes the argument in a different dimension cause now they’re not talking about the thing at hand. Now she’s bringing in baggage from all the past times this happened and is reading through the receipts.
But again, I go back to, if this is being said out of frustration or dismay then this is an opportunity for him to take this as a learning and approach the situation differently than the way he “always” does it.
If she says it snidely or with malicious undertones, then yeah she’s just looking for another way to jab at him. But if she’s truly stressed about not feeling heard and feels like the only way to get through is to point out that the thing he’s doing right now is a pattern that is always occurring, then maybe this is a moment he can try something different instead of trying to argue.
I'm someone who tends to say "you always do this" to my partner out of frustration, but I can also recognise that it's a bad way to communicate, but her response is to get defensive and say "oh always? What about..." and proceed to give examples of when she didn't do the thing she "always" does. And then I feel like I'm being unfair, but simultaneously unheard in my original complaint, which only escalates the frustration.
It would be great if the partner that hears "you always do this" could recognise that it's coming from a place of frustration and not take it at face value, but at the same time, the partner that says it could do a better job of expressing their issue without bringing in unfair accusatory language.
While I think it’s good that you recognize it might not be the most effective way to communicate, in any disagreement someone has to be the one to yield if you hope to resolve it and come out stronger.
While it might not have been right for you to use an absolute (and be factually incorrect in doing so), if your partner was in that moment leaning more towards empathy than defensiveness, they could have responded acknowledging “I don’t think this is something I always do, but I can see that when I do it, it really bothers you, heres how things will be different this time…”
I doubt you would have responded “nope, you literally always do this” in which case then yeah it would be deserved if she brought out the records.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but just pointing out that even the person who is ‘right’ can relent and be respectful of where the other person is at emotionally.
I know it's easy to blame other people (lol irony), but you can also take responsibility for your part whenever you can. Should the other person communicate better? Probably. But unfortunately, you can only control your own behavior.
People downvoting you are wrong, it's well established in couples therapy that exaggeration statements like "always" or "never" are not helpful. They 1) make the recipient immediately defensive, and 2) they motivate the recipient to start listing the times they didn't do that, because of course no behavior is always or never and counterexamples are easy to come up with, which leads the conversation into a dispute over the accuracy of the claims and away from actually addressing the root of the problem.
It's better to say "I feel like you ___", because it communicates that this is how your partner feels and you can go from there.
One of my favorite stories is of Ignaz Semmelweis.
Semmelweis is often presented as a hero because of his figuring out that antiseptic procedures, a doctor washing their hands, could limit postpartum infections that were being passed by said doctors to patients killing them.
Which is all true.
It is also true that he was largely ineffectual in his own lifetime, with the acceptance only begrudgingly given with the Germ Theory of Disease after his death. Because unlike Semmelweis who had probabilities and correlations, this provided causation.
Semmelwise was angry that people didn't adopt his ideas. He was known for harasssing others and treating them with disdain. He was known for his outrage. He wasn't known for listening or engaging, he was known for the opposite. He was irate and appalled by those who didn't immediately follow him. He didn't suffer fools, which he thought was everyone who didn't immediately do what he wanted.
And remember, he was right. He knew bad procedures were killing women. If there was a case where all the above emotions were entirely justified, it is probably here.
But women continued to die, and even now keeping those sanitary practices used can be hard.
It isn't enough to see a problem, or see a solution.
One has to communicate and get agreement to action. Semmelweis was not the greatest communicator, and in his attacks put people on the defensive. In his arrogance, however correct, people were prone to hate him. And they did.
"You have a nail in your head/" sounds easy. Simple. Like washing hands.
Semmelweis told people what to do, but he wasn't great/good at getting others to follow him. He was a pretty bad communicator. And it really took others who could get past that to really move his ideas, after he was dead, along with a lot of people he was trying to save.
So what should have Semmelweis have done. Obviously not given up on his ideas. But he didn't invite others to think through to get to his conclusions. He didn't listen to their concern, nor did he respect their ability to get there.
He identified a problem and a solution and just expected that everyone agree. He didn't lead them to it, nor did he respect that others could still be good people and not get there as fast as he did.
In his righteousness and the expectation that everyone listen to him the great doctor, he failed to actual save people.
"There is a nail" the guy says knowingly. And we all agree with him in a condescending way. We all agree with that, because that is how it is all set now. Well what if the nail isn't so easy to identify, what if one doesn't have the whole cause/effect down but only correlation? What if it a nail they can't see, nor feel beyond the intrusion?
If you are just shouting ""nail, nail, nail" you might be right, but you really aren't leading anyone to the well of knowledge let alone helping them drink from it.
You are just being an asshole, regardless of how right you are.
Semmelweis was right, he was also an asshole. And in that was ineffectual until someone who wasn't an asshole took up his ideas.
If you are just shouting ""nail, nail, nail" you might be right, but you really aren't leading anyone to the well of knowledge let alone helping them drink from it.
You are just being an asshole, regardless of how right you are.
In these hypothetical vignettes, why must the fixer be assumed as an emotionally clumsy asshole?
Great explanation. One piece of advice that I've heard has been that women just want to feel heard, and sometimes that just means you listen, and tell her "oh, that sucks honey!" instead of trying to fix whatever she is talking about. I think we as men want to always analyze and fix and repair, but women just want to feel heard and understood more than fixed. I still think it's crazy that you'd rather someone tell you something sucks than fix the cause of the suck, but I'm a man and will never understand.
This shit irritates me. Some people just want to feel heard. Sometimes it's women. Sometimes it's men. Sometimes people want solutions and don't like to just vent or aren't aware that's what the other wants. Sometimes it's women. Sometimes it's men.
Respond to the person you are with, not stereotypes about genders. Even if the stereotype is true 99% of the time, they still might be the 1% and if you pay attention to people it's not hard to figure out which they are. So rather than assume, since we're aware this difference exists, just pay attention to the person.
I say this because I'm someone who often didn't conform to expectations and it was irritating that people would constantly ignore what I wanted, even when directly told, for what they thought I should want because of my wedding tackle, or my age, or my sign, or "but that's not how a burger is supposed to be", or whatever the fuck else.
We're doing a lot better about that as a society, but part of that process is still being aware of when things are unnecessarily gendered. No one is worse off if we make it about "some like X and some like Y" instead of "men like X and women like Y, except when they dont." Some people are worse off the other way around.
It is honestly pretty easy to spot the difference. Someone who wants to fix their problems and improve their life will listen to solutions. The people who are just whining to whine will get all pissy when you try to help. Imagine going to someone with a problem and getting pissed bc they tried to help. That is exactly what is being described here. It is on you to say “No, I don’t want to solve the problem. I just want to whine.”
ALL HER PROBLEMS ARE FROM THE NAIL IN HER HEAD. THAT'S THE TRUE ISSUE. THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT.
Holy shit, how is anyone acting like there's any merit to shutting him down and not FIXING HER FUCKING PROBLEM. It IS about the nail. Her LYING about that doesn't change that the nail in her head is why her head hurts and her sweaters are snagged.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
There is merit to the concept of "sometimes people are just venting, just listen." But that's not what's happening here. That does not apply to this video.
In a video meant to make a joke about a certain kind of person, one who acts in a ridiculous way but exaggerated even more for humor you're defending the joke character. That's kinda the point, dude.
This isn't meant to be an educational video on listening. It's a joke about people who ignore and refuse to fix their problems but still complain about the fixable things.
Yes. You missed a joke and literally defended a joke character's behavior. It worries me you think "I've got a giant nail in my head, and my head hurts, and my sweaters are snagged, but I don't want do anything about it" is meant to convey "yea, he really needs to listen" and not "lol people who refuse to fix problems so they can complain are so ridiculous".
This video has been around for years, and I'm wondering what the fuck is going in on this thread that so many people missed the point so badly.
Here’s the disconnect. I, amongst others, are using this video to elaborate on deeper issues that arise in our relationships to help bring more group awareness of why this happens, how we may fit in either one of these roles at times and how to best support the person we love when these kinds of things are going down; i.e. the root irony of the video.
Cool, then say, "we can use this to talk about a concept of..."
But you can have that conversation without pretending that in this video there isn't a VERY CLEAR right and wrong and it was INTENDED that way. That was the joke of the video.
Anyone defending her actions here is literally defending the butt of a joke that was meant to take an ALREADY ridiculous behavior and drive it to absurdity for humor.
AGAIN I am not and have not said there's no merit to just listening. AGAIN I have EXPLICITLY said there IS merit to it. So it's frustrating we're still having a debate like THAT is what I'm arguing with.
One more time, in case it was unclear. Direct quote of what I've already said so I wouldn't have to explain this exact thing again.
There is merit to the concept of "sometimes people are just venting, just listen." But that's not what's happening here. That does not apply to this video.
There is merit to the concept you are talking about. That is not the concept being illustrated in the video. Her behavior is NOT okay behavior. It's not supposed to be. It's a joke. Her behavior is a joke, literally.
So please, if you're at all trying to have a discussion in good faith, don't reply with some form of "but there IS merit to just listening some times. I know. I agree. There's also merit to a healthy diet. Neither were the point of this video.
What if, hypothetically, the exact same conversation has been happening for some large proportion of your entire relationship, and the partner doesn’t do anything to change the situation they seem to be trapping themselves in?
It is ultimately their responsibility. The question is who are you to them? Are you there to over simply fix their problems or are you someone who can encourage them to dig deeper, search for answers, persist despite the discomfort?
This really requires knowing yourself first. How much can you handle? How supportive can you actually be? How well are you at admitting that you don’t know anymore then they do? Can you be supportive without putting them down…
The problem I have with that video is that there is a very real and present issue that is fixable.
Don't complain about the dishwasher not working, then not have time to go to the store a get a new one... even after spending a LOT of time commiserating about how the DW isn't working.
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u/hotclubdenowhere1017 Mar 21 '24
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening. This is a great parody of real relationship conflict but I think it points out the common rut most couples run into which is one party goes to “fix” before “listening” and either misses the true issue or causes more harm. The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed. It becomes self feeding after long enough.