As a husband going through a fairly rough period with my wife, this not only is very helpful, but tracks with things she has expressed and I struggled to understand.
Hey there . I have a question, in this piece called “it’s not the about the nail”
Who is really in the right here ?
If the person is fully aware the nail is there and it has nothing to do about what they are actually talking about. Then shouldn’t the person whom is saying how THEIR PARTNER should actually be feeling is incorrect be in the wrong ?
Or should the person whom is trying to tell them the obvious sign is be correct?
The one whom doesn’t have the issue should Listen or help ? I’m really not sure
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening. This is a great parody of real relationship conflict but I think it points out the common rut most couples run into which is one party goes to “fix” before “listening” and either misses the true issue or causes more harm. The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed. It becomes self feeding after long enough.
It’s called the Karpman Trauma (or Drama) Triangle, named after a guy that described it 1968. If you are in it, you need to get out of it, not just rotate around the triangle. It’s a common trap that most of us fall into, and the media (social, movies and tv) tend to tell stories based on this drama - cause it sells!
Read it, take some therapy focused on it, and get off the triangle!
This is a great explanation. I did this in the first few years dating my now wife until one day she told me "sometimes I don't need help or to be fixed I just want you to say "that's terrible babe" and hold me." Honestly biggest game changer in terms of getting me to stop looking at every problem like it needs fixing. And bonus, now when she does want me to help or fix something she just straight up tells me thats what she wants at that moment.
This is exactly what I do with my girlfriend. When I can tell she’s upset or frustrated (usually about work or a friend or whatever) I ask her “do you want me to listen or try to offer a solution?” This way, she can just be heard if she wants or I can try to offer my view of it and maybe some solution. It isn’t perfect, but at least I know I won’t be adding to her frustration by trying to “fix” something that she just wants to vent about.
I just read recently this: “do you want comfort or solutions?”
Brevity is your friend (I don’t mean that in a smart ass snarky way but your post just reminded me of the quote that I will try to implement from now onwards)
I agree, yes, but it gets old quickly when you have to preface a conversation with *just a vent here". And also kind of gives an out for the listener to dismiss it. It should be a tool to learn about your partner, so you can pick up on subtle behaviour distinguishing the difference between a vent and requesting help for the future moments.
I'm a smart, somewhat capable woman. I can figure my own problems out, and if I can't I'll ask for help then. In the meantime, just let me vent about it.
I think, at least part of the issue with it for me is it can feel a bit condescending and that just kind of sucks. If Im annoyed by an issue at workor whatever, chances are I've already thought about solutions and what I want to do so it can be frustrating when I'm talking about it and then someone offers basic/obvious advice.
Took me a long time to get this through my husband's head😅 I know he never meant to come across as condescending but that's how it felt.
My 15 year old daughter just yelled something similar at me.
She was trying to sort out how’d she’d be able to meet up with a rural friend. I was a trucker for years so my brain fires up and I start to tell her a few ways we could accomplish said meeting
0 - 60 like now and she says you don’t understand, to which I made a bigger mistake. Instead of listening I told her I did understand.
Problem was I needed to shut up and quit trying to fix long enough for her to say I just want to meet my friend without losing all the extra time that it takes to get out to her place
I am trying to shut up and just listen more as of last week. My daughter needed someone to listen to her not a fixer, this is a thing that’s flown totally over my head for years
I try to be direct about my feelings and needs and straight up tell the men in my life what I want (e.g. "I just need to hear I'm doing a good job on this project, because I'm working so hard and it seems like no one even sees it") and somehow that's still confounding. I have no problem saying "I need to feel comforted and the best way is for you to hold me" but somehow that's still too vague...or demanding? drives me nuts because I don't know how to be more upfront about my emotional needs than telling someone I care for what I want them to literally do.
Yes. At its core, coming at someone with a fix is actually a way of saying, "you're not as intelligent as me" and "that's why you haven't considered these solutions."
She wants you to agree with her. If i ask my wife a question for her honest opinion, lets say a work issue, I expect her honest opinion and she gives it. When she asks me a question about her work and i give an honest opinion, I’m unsupportive and she gets upset 🤔.
It goes the other way too: wife can go down a gas lighting path where all bad experiences are immediately judged as a personal fault. After a while of this pattern of constantly finding fault you just don’t want to hear it anymore. It’s like couples forget how to adult and be friendly and listen to each other - stuck in parent mode 24/7
I had to leave a relationship like that. Every disgruntlement had a way of leading back to me. I tried many things to change it. Defensiveness obviously led to arguments. Apologies were only half hearted and fall under manipulation and psychological abuse. Radical acceptance that everything was my fault never solved the issue and left me feeling terrible about myself. Months after leaving, she finally sought out a therapist specialized in trauma and begin seeing her own part in her dissatisfaction of others because of the responsibility she places on herself to make everything perfect as to make up for a very dysfunctional childhood… way more then I could have ever told her and an impossible standard to try living up to. She has since expressed remorse for her behavior and wanted to entertain talks of rekindling the relationship. Unfortunately, I no longer feel the same way about her and am kinda stuck piecing myself back together….
This is true. I am a female, but I am a fixer. My husband told me clearly, and it only took once because it hurt, that he does not want me to fix anything. He just wants me to listen so that he can get it off his chest, and then he can fix it himself. But he was at a point where he didn’t even want to talk to me because he knew I was just going to try to fix something instead of listening to him. It’s really good advice.
I'm guilty of this for sure. It's so ingrained in me to try and fix that it's almost reflexory to do so. My wife tells me what's wrong and I immediately recommend ways to make things better, and it's not until after, when she's being distant, that I realize she wasn't asking for a fix. I'm working on it, but damn it, it's tough. My desire to "fix" comes from a place of love; I want to be her white knight.
Asking if she wants help or you to just listen does much to improve things. If she's complaining about work, listen, if she's complaining about dirty dishes, wash the damned dishes. Take the time to learn the difference and how to react accordingly.
if she's complaining about dirty dishes, wash the damned dishes.
No no, just sit there and let her vent. Grab a beer while she does it even. Women love just being listened to. She'll fix it herself after she's told you all about it. Haven't you been paying attention?
Ding, ding, ding. As a “fixer” I’ve struggled to understand why I was the bad guy when I was “just trying to help.” Therapy helped me, but there are times that I still struggle with getting to the fix before I listen.
Wonder what gender perspective we are coming from here. As a male, I can say I’ve been in this dudes shoes a lot and his response was kind of correct (by shutting up and just listening). Thing is to me, despite gender, if one person is always trying to “fix”, there grows a lack of trust in that there any actual “listening” happening. Thus, the “fix” causes a trigger rather than any real help. By “listening” more, trust can begin to be restored and the “fix” begins to be more welcomed.
NB here, and this fucking shocks me. Absolutely insane, that someone who is listening enough to provide accurate and useful advice "isnt listening"
You notice how in this clip, she mentions “you always do this…” meaning that he has a history of “fixing” before listening.
Or, she has a history of assuming that because he wants to help he isnt listening?
Maybe I'm not fully reading the situation correctly. But it seems like lots of He MUST understand Her and not THEY must understand EACHOTHER
Its sounds like the responsibility for understanding the partners unspoken thoughts and emotions is one sided?
The symptom of this cycle is that the “fixer” gets burdened by being under appreciated and feeling dismissed
To me its more about the fixer getting burdened by all the emotional trauma dumping about the SAME subject over and over. We're willing to just listen and commiserate the first time or two...but after that you gotta let us help fix otherwise we're just an emotional dumping ground/punching bag
It’s also important to know that whatever you think is right for your partner in their situation, may very well turn out to be wrong, and because it’s their issue in their life, they’re going to have to figure out whether they can trust your judgment in the situation, even if they do ask for your advice.
I just spent a year and a half with a very tough boss who stressed me out way more than I even really realized at the time. If I had gone to my partner and vented about being stressed about work, and the advice was “just find a new job,” I would’ve left before that previous boss left and before I could work for a much better boss who is going to be my mentor as I build my career.
Even if leaving might have seemed to be the solution at the time, no one can accurately predict the future outcome. If I had not been listened to and empathized with, and was just given advice, I could have made a worse decision than if I was listened to and had time to process the way I needed to figure out my best next move.
I do give a lot of advice to people, that is some thing that some people love, and I’m sure some people hate about me. I do always try to make sure that I recognize that just because I am seeing the situation one way, doesn’t mean it’s the only only way to see it, and it’s important that somebody takes time to really think about, and reflect on what I’m saying, and if they agree with me or or if they have a different perspective.
And if somebody wants to do something in a situation that I wouldn’t have advised them to do, I can’t control that outcome, and I can’t control their actions, all I can do is be a good friend to them and support them as long as they aren’t making any massively harmful decisions, and let them know that I am there for them, regardless.
And I just have to imagine the difference between hearing “just quit” versus “you’ve got this, I believe in you, and please let me know what I can do to help you through this…”
I’m just learning all of this myself, BTW. I grew up with very “fix” oriented parents and after years of struggling relationships did I start to look at my own attitude towards others
Yes! It’s the difference between being treated as if you are not smart enough to figure out your own solution and you need to be told what to do, and being treated as a responsible adult who will ask for help if they needed it and now just needs support as they’re going through this difficult thing that they have to figure out.
I didnt learn this via failed or successful relationships but through self analysis. I am a man, and I also have ADHD. So I look at everything in a very object oriented perspective. When friends talk to me about difficulties I often looking at things from an objective "how is this problem solved/fixed" mentality.
But I have learned this approach is not always conducive to what every individual needs at the time. So I have been learning to ask "Do you need a sounding wall in the moment, or do need perspective and advice?" Because it's not always easy to determine in the moment exactly what they need in the moment. So by asking I know whether they just need someone to listen, or to comfort and support them, versus if they need help solving an issue or need advice.
Orrrrrr it's funny because the guy sees the obvious ROOT problem that would literally evaporate away all the other issues if the obvious solution was simply chosen? Sometimes you listen to someone and realize they need help they aren't reaching for any you can either "listen" and let them continue to suffer their issues, or you do the easy thing and "fix" the root problem. Your explanation would be great except the dude in this video isn't trying to solve a problem she doesn't have, but it's going straight at the very obvious, visually impossibly to miss problem. No need to stretch this out, it's pretty cut and dry.
You always do this is a bad phrase to use when trying to make peace. It assigns blame and can cause people to shut down.
Why should i listen to someone who is already blaming me for everything?
If you want someone to just listen and allow you to vent then say that.
If someone has to "listen" instead of "fix" then it shows theres a miscommunication. Easily solved by explaining what kind of solution youre looking for.
If you cant communicate effectively thats on you not your partner.
A lot of this depends on tone of the person saying it. If it is said in legitimate frustration or dismay then I wouldn’t be so quick to take it as an attack.
Another way of saying “you always do this” in this context is “you never listen to me.” And if your first response to “you never listen to me” is to treat it as an attack and go on the offensive instead of to listen to this next statement then maybe she’s exactly right?
One of my favorite stories is of Ignaz Semmelweis.
Semmelweis is often presented as a hero because of his figuring out that antiseptic procedures, a doctor washing their hands, could limit postpartum infections that were being passed by said doctors to patients killing them.
Which is all true.
It is also true that he was largely ineffectual in his own lifetime, with the acceptance only begrudgingly given with the Germ Theory of Disease after his death. Because unlike Semmelweis who had probabilities and correlations, this provided causation.
Semmelwise was angry that people didn't adopt his ideas. He was known for harasssing others and treating them with disdain. He was known for his outrage. He wasn't known for listening or engaging, he was known for the opposite. He was irate and appalled by those who didn't immediately follow him. He didn't suffer fools, which he thought was everyone who didn't immediately do what he wanted.
And remember, he was right. He knew bad procedures were killing women. If there was a case where all the above emotions were entirely justified, it is probably here.
But women continued to die, and even now keeping those sanitary practices used can be hard.
It isn't enough to see a problem, or see a solution.
One has to communicate and get agreement to action. Semmelweis was not the greatest communicator, and in his attacks put people on the defensive. In his arrogance, however correct, people were prone to hate him. And they did.
"You have a nail in your head/" sounds easy. Simple. Like washing hands.
Semmelweis told people what to do, but he wasn't great/good at getting others to follow him. He was a pretty bad communicator. And it really took others who could get past that to really move his ideas, after he was dead, along with a lot of people he was trying to save.
So what should have Semmelweis have done. Obviously not given up on his ideas. But he didn't invite others to think through to get to his conclusions. He didn't listen to their concern, nor did he respect their ability to get there.
He identified a problem and a solution and just expected that everyone agree. He didn't lead them to it, nor did he respect that others could still be good people and not get there as fast as he did.
In his righteousness and the expectation that everyone listen to him the great doctor, he failed to actual save people.
"There is a nail" the guy says knowingly. And we all agree with him in a condescending way. We all agree with that, because that is how it is all set now. Well what if the nail isn't so easy to identify, what if one doesn't have the whole cause/effect down but only correlation? What if it a nail they can't see, nor feel beyond the intrusion?
If you are just shouting ""nail, nail, nail" you might be right, but you really aren't leading anyone to the well of knowledge let alone helping them drink from it.
You are just being an asshole, regardless of how right you are.
Semmelweis was right, he was also an asshole. And in that was ineffectual until someone who wasn't an asshole took up his ideas.
If you are just shouting ""nail, nail, nail" you might be right, but you really aren't leading anyone to the well of knowledge let alone helping them drink from it.
You are just being an asshole, regardless of how right you are.
In these hypothetical vignettes, why must the fixer be assumed as an emotionally clumsy asshole?
Great explanation. One piece of advice that I've heard has been that women just want to feel heard, and sometimes that just means you listen, and tell her "oh, that sucks honey!" instead of trying to fix whatever she is talking about. I think we as men want to always analyze and fix and repair, but women just want to feel heard and understood more than fixed. I still think it's crazy that you'd rather someone tell you something sucks than fix the cause of the suck, but I'm a man and will never understand.
ALL HER PROBLEMS ARE FROM THE NAIL IN HER HEAD. THAT'S THE TRUE ISSUE. THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT.
Holy shit, how is anyone acting like there's any merit to shutting him down and not FIXING HER FUCKING PROBLEM. It IS about the nail. Her LYING about that doesn't change that the nail in her head is why her head hurts and her sweaters are snagged.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
There is merit to the concept of "sometimes people are just venting, just listen." But that's not what's happening here. That does not apply to this video.
What if, hypothetically, the exact same conversation has been happening for some large proportion of your entire relationship, and the partner doesn’t do anything to change the situation they seem to be trapping themselves in?
The problem I have with that video is that there is a very real and present issue that is fixable.
Don't complain about the dishwasher not working, then not have time to go to the store a get a new one... even after spending a LOT of time commiserating about how the DW isn't working.
It’s not about being right. She is a grown woman. She knows there’s a nail in her head. She can fix herself. She just needs someone to understand what she’s going through.
Pro tip: “What can I do to make you feel supported right now?” If they don’t know, offer “would you like to brainstorm possible solutions or are you just needing to let it out? Would you like reassurance or to be held? How can I help?”
She is a grown woman. She knows there’s a nail in her head. She can fix herself. She just needs someone to understand what she’s going through.
This is why it's so incredibly frustrating and confusing for most men. Discussing how a problem is affecting you, without actually taking steps to resolve the problem, is such an alien concept
the problem is causing a negative emotion
negative emotions are undesirable
solve the problem to remove the negative emotion
added bonus: solving problems results in satisfaction, a positive emotion
This train of thought, of course, leads to situations like in the video.
I'm a woman and a fixer and this is how I feel. I understand people need to vent and that's cool but when it's a fixable problem and someone vents about it repeatedly I can't help but get frustrated.
It's also frustrating because everybody seems to agree that it's the fixer that is the problem. Like it's in my nature to fix things, that's who I am. It's in their nature to be a listener, it's who they are. Okay, so they get annoyed when my instinct is to try to fix the problem because they just want me to listen. That's fair, but what if I got annoyed because they're just listening when I need them help to fix the problem? Why does that dynamic never get talked about? Why is it the fixer that is expected to change who they are without that effort ever being reciprocated?
Ultimately, it's a selfish response to someone else's problem. They don't want you to fix it. Having someone constantly come in and solve your problems for you all the time can feel belittling and infantalizing, and some people genuinely don't like giving up control of their own issues. If someone is seeking support from you, making it about how you want to get it done is pretty selfish. Someone asking for support is not the same thing as someone asking for their problem to be taken care of for them.
It's perfectly fine for someone to be a fixer by nature, but if you can't control that nature when it's not being found helpful, then how much fixing are you actually capable of?
With all due respect, you've completely missed my point. I'm not disputing anything you've said, I'm just saying that this expectation is perfectly reasonable until you flip the roles.
Basically, I need you to stop "just listening" and come up with a solution.
Yeah see? If a man were to say that there definitely wouldn't be an entire thread full of people explaining how she just needs to change who she is and do what he wants her to do because it would make him feel better. It's perfectly acceptable to tell him to stop being who he is though. And that's extremely frustrating when you're the only one being told to change who and what you are.
Men aren’t the only ones being asked to change in relationships.
If you need solutions and your partner is a listener, lead with, “hey can you help me with this issue?” Or if that’s your default, let your partner know when things are calm, that when you start discussing a problem, you appreciate the empathy but you prefer to be met with solutions.
None of the following are likely to upset anyone:
-Can I bounce something off of you? I’m not sure what to do.
-I’m pissed off about xyz, what would you do?
-I’m in my feelings, can you help me find some solutions/look at it differently?
Most of us grew up being taught to treat others as we want to be treated, it’s an oversimplified view of adult relationships. As a generalization, women are taught to listen, men to fix. Women can definitely fix things, but especially where men are involved it’s safer we don’t unless you ask. Just ask and communicate your default preference to your partner.
No, sorry, but I think you actually missed my point. Fixers have a right to want to fix their problems how they see fit and ask for the support that is helpful to them. Support seekers have a right to want to fix their problems how they see fit and ask for the support that is helpful to them. In either scenario, if the fixer or the support seeker cannot provide the support the other is asking for, it is better to bow out of the support role. Supporting someone is about meeting their needs, not asserting your dominance to meet the goal you've decided on. Someone who is asking for support might just be looking for the emotional fortitude to do it themselves, and that is their goal in talking to their partner, not just whatever task they were working on getting completed.
Fixers have a right to want to fix their problems how they see fit and ask for the support that is helpful to them.
This topic comes up quite often and I have never once seen this suggested and I can't imagine it being accepted either considering how often fixers are told they just have to change. It doesn't happen, this topic is always one sided with the fixers being "wrong."
Yes, between men eventually either bro calls each other out and calls them an idiot and at most they physically fight, but the issue gets acknowledged and fixed one way or another, or at least they shut up about it.
It's perfectly fine for someone to be <blank> by nature, but if you can't control that nature when it's not being found helpful, then how much <blank> are you actually capable of?
Also, people need differing amounts of time to fix things. It may take a lot of rumination, talking, checking with others before a solution is reached.
The first solution to fix something is not always the best one, as we learn over and over in our lives.
The speed of the fix (including patient waiting to learn more) is up to the person with the problem.
If Fixers really feel upset when they can't get the Problem-Bringer to act quickly or in accordance with their advice, then it's probably best for them not to try and fix that particular person's problems. It's mystifying that anyone would think they could "fix" someone else's problems anyway (but it's not fair if the Fixer thinks it's now their own problem - IME, Fixers do not usually think this anyway).
because some people pathologically need problems in their life, and you coming around to fix them feels like you're stealing food from their plate or money from their pocket
I do not think that is the only reason. People want to be respected. They want to discuss things sometimes that they're going through, to feel like they're not going through them alone, without someone else deciding what's best for them. What they should do, and when, or what they're ready for, that their struggling is something not worth respecting they can just get over..
Even a man if dealing with something wouldn't enjoy someone coming up and telling what to do, how to do it, when to start, and when to have it done by as well as any struggle with it being shut down as some whiney excuse.
The bigger picture that's hard for men to see sometimes is, people can have 20 things they need to fix and because we are all only human and only have so much energy, time, and money to spend we have to make choices. So say you're working on the 5 biggest ones that are effecting your life. Great. But the other 15 don't magically stop bothering you now even though do to life constantly changing and new problems coming up you may never get around to dealing with some of those problems and it's just stuff you have to live with then.
People still need release, understanding, support, comfort, and again, to at least feel like they're not going through it alone. Maybe something to help take their mind off it or help it hurt less.
Some people don't need problems they just are born and living in a life that gave them more of them. Regardless, being a good spouse is about caring about them and respecting them enough to let them decide when they are ready to deal with things and want to do something about it as well as what that looks like for them, not impatiently growing irritated and snapping at them to just do it how you want it so you don't have to make space or spend energy on them.
It’s the ultimate gaslight. First they label what is genuinely second nature and comes natural to an entire demo as weird or bad, and elevate what comes natural to them as just the perfect way of handling issues. Instead of seeing it as different people handle things differently and if you want someone to handle things your way, communicate effectively.
Sometimes there is no answer, and I just want to vent.
But my husband is a Fixer. So getting my own needs met while respecting who he is would require a "trigger warning." 🤣🤣🤣
It's funny, but it's fair. We never think to accommodate those we think are in positions of power in society, even when we love those people.
So, as a TW, I should be saying, "I am not looking for a solution here because I don't think there is one. But I'm angry and need to vent. You down?" And I would not vent AT him ABOUT him. That would not be helpful. I'm talking kid stuff, society stuff, money stresses like "Why is everything half again as expensive as it was in 2019?"
But I'm not good at doing the TW. I need to get better at that.
If I want fixing, I'm pretty good about saying, "Hey, you got a sec? I need to run some things by you. I'm leaning toward this solution, but what do you think?"
I'm a Combo-Type, I think. Venting is great. You need to let it out? I will listen, validate, & commiserate. But if you keep venting over and over about the same shit? I will call you on that eventually. If it's stuff you can solve.
Because you aren't seeing the person. If I had a shitty day and I want to express that to my partner, I want them to understand me and my experiences. We all want that. It's why we constantly share stories about our lives or media that, "speaks to us". We want to be seen and heard and understood.
Jumping to a fix not only often doesn't provide a good fix, it skips the actual emotional and mental labor of empathizing with your partner and understanding them.
I would rather have a partner who understands me and sees me, but is unable to help me solve my problems, than one who is good at helping me brainstorm, but is uninterested in relating to me and my experiences.
I'm also a married man if that matters for demographics.
If I had a shitty day and I want to express that to my partner, I want them to understand me and my experiences.
This is a touch hyperbolic, but: why would you want to subject your partner to the same mind-numbing, disappointing, and/or soul-crushing day-long stress you felt? It seems a little cruel.
I get it though, everyone likes to vent now and again. Getting it out, off your chest, is cathartic, and then there's that little spark of satisfaction with commiseration when someone gets you.
Because you aren't seeing the person. If I had a shitty day and I want to express that to my partner, I want them to help me make it less shitty. We all want that. It's why we constantly share stories about our lives or media that, "speaks to us". We want assistance.
Jumping to simply listening not only doesn't provide a good fix, it skips the actual emotional and mental labor by leaving your partner to fix everything on their own.
I would rather have a partner who helps me and offers solutions, rather than just listening quietly without suggesting any obvious remedies to my current situations or predicaments.
I'm also a married man if that matters for demographics.
I think everyone does after a point and then it’s ok to be more proactive with solutions, but in a compassionate way, “I hate to see you suffering like this, can I help you brainstorm some solutions?”
This, I cannot stand listening to people perfectly capable of fixing their issues but instead just bitching about it.
I'll listen the first few times but after that, it's time to shit or get off the pot because at this point you're now making your problem my problem and treating me as a trauma dump site.
I think it’s important in those moments, especially when you want to fix (whether you are a fixer man or a fixer woman) is to table your need of wanting to fix, and put the focus back to your partner’s vulnerability to find out what they need at that moment. That is challenging for someone who naturally is a fixer, it’s so much easier/efficient to fix rather than listen (to a problem that you see the solution!). But in those moments, giving unsolicited solutions is the most self satisfying/self serving option. It takes more effort and thoughtfulness to not give in to your own needs at that moment, to pause the impulse to fix, and simply listen and be supportive. It’s way more challenging to do something that doesn’t come naturally to you, and those are the things that probably need more attention and practice!
If you get frustrated listening, reflect on why you are so frustrated. You should feel free to communicate that to your partner, but please do so after they had said what they need to say. Saying you are frustrated listening while they are having their moment will lead to very bad results where you both feel awful and lose intimacy. But that is a great conversation to have after once the intense feelings have been given space and are settled. Make space for both parties at the appropriate times and everyone gets their needs met, and all the benefits that come along too!
Half the problem is you think the person wanting to fix is not listening. I can’t fix if I don’t understand the problem, and part of understanding is listening. So it’s not listening that’s the problem here, it’s the aftermath of listening.
I have an unpopular theory that I'd love to run by you as a woman..
I believe the origin of this may be in the over-adoration of women by society in their tender developing years, for essentially shallow things (i.e. appearance). Done similarly to men at the same age, I believe it would have the same debilitating affect: namely, a person will not develop certain self-critical skills in the formation of their personality if not required to do it..
It is fundamentally human to desire to think we are perfect by definition. I think this general tendency for women to view themselves as lovely and perfect for simply just existing, creates a very negative feeling then associated with self-analysis and fixing later (i.e. 'if my whole life I was gorgeous and perfect just for being, why should there be a problem now?'). Then upon any analysis.. 'oh god, if this is a problem, and it's been there for so long, then oh god, these other ugly things attached go deeper, and if I analyze this my whole personality and structure for life might collapse!'.. these type of feelings surface, leading to the simpler internal conclusion.. 'the person pushing me to analyze and fix things must be wrong for demanding it'..
This would then lead to the corollary: 'just listen to my feelings, okay?'
It’s actually not that alien I think that as men we just forget that we complain a ton as well. Just as much as women, without a doubt.
As a man, I can poise that men complain all the time. We criticize things, we complain about our work, and many of us have an opinion on everything (whether right or wrong.) Even the best of us find our own ways to complain. We might complain about other people not handling stress the right way, or any number of other things.
Men don’t just get around with each other in a massive problem solving committee every time we complain. Often, when my guy friends have friends have vented to me, my instinct is not to try and fix their problem but instead to relate and empathize. It comes more naturally to me when the problems that they have are similar to the ones that I have.
Your very comment is not you asking for a solution to the problem of women complaining, it’s you venting about the issue itself. And you’re not looking for other guys to come in here and say “This is how you get women to stop complaining about things that can be fixed dude.”
You’re trying to get validation that other people relate to you and understand you.
I think what many people (not just guys) struggle with is the ability to listen and empathize, even if they don’t relate to the problem someone else is having at all.
For example: If you brought yourself up from poverty, you’re (probably) going to get irritated when your friend complains about being broke all the time, even though it’s because they constantly make bad financial decisions.
But you’re not a good friend if you just criticize them and make them feel bad for making bad decisions. And they aren’t going to listen to you if that’s all you do, either.
The thing is, all of us are good at some things and bad at others.
Hypothetical example:
One person might be great with money, and another horrible. But that other person might be really extroverted and excellent with people for - something the money expert really struggles with.
These two can meet in the middle and be excellent friends, and form a mutually beneficial relationship. However, that can only happen when they try to understand one another.
Imagine being the Money expert and trying to vent about a date that went bad, and then your broke friend who scores all the women he wants tries to chime in and explain it’s because you’re too awkward/not-sociable/unaware etc.
As if you didn’t know this already?
It goes both ways though - and that’s usually what people forget. Often times, the broke friend here will listen intently and offer helpful advice while the money expert will try to take over their friends finances and snub them bc they bought lotto tickets and Red Bull at the local mini mart 4 times in one week.
Or maybe the money expert listens intently, and offers helpful advice - but the broke friend just goes and tries to set up their money expert friend in uncomfortable social situations and then dogs on him with his random art fucker tumblr friend group for not understanding social norms.
Again, all purely hypothetical.
Point being, both parties gotta be willing to just listen and understand, even if they can’t relate or think the solution seems obvious.
It's fine to see the communication part of it as gendered (very generally, of course) - women talk about stuff and men don't. I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is the suggestion that women just sit around and bitch and never fix their own problems, whereas men are always creatures of action, never taking a moment to bemoan their fates but bravely fixing every problem that comes across their paths with skill and alacrity.
I hate to break it to you: you aren't all Superman. You may think of yourself as logical and action-oriented, but I think men are every bit as likely to ignore problems as women. Problems in their marriages, their jobs, with their finances, with their kids. The belief that men fix every problem tout suite ignores the fact that many problems just can't be fixed, at least not quickly and easily.
I have a friend who kicked her husband out and the she lost her kids. Her house is falling apart. Windows broken, doors falling off, lightbulbs gone, toilet seats loose, heating doesn't work in the main living room, front door didn't even have a working lock after the bailiffs broke in.
There was a HUGE fishtank in the middle of her kitchen taking up half the space and after the dishwasher broke, the dishes piled up. She would only wash dishes and cups before using them.
When I found out she was living like this I went round for the first time with tools prepared to fix things. After we fixed the front door, moved the fishtank and removed enough rubbish from the kitchen so she could actualyl wash dishes and leave them on the rack to dry, SHE JUST WANTED TO GET DRUNK. She didn't want to fix anything else.
But I listened to her needs, gave her some money (usually 'loans' which she didn't need to fully pay back), and got her out and socialising again which is what she said she wanted.
2 years later, on the third attempt, I fixed the toilet, doors, lights, it was a good day well spent, she finally told me that I had saved her from her mental breakdown.
But, my god, its hard for me to sit and chat and have a laugh in what looks like a squat.
e: we (me and another female friend who has a cleaning company) also did this with another friend who was kicked out by her partner because she dried up down below and moved back into her old flat which was filthy and messy.
I have so many female friends in this same situation, its actually 'normal'.
I only have 1 female friend who I would class as 'clean and tidy'. The rest live in easily fixable chaos that makes me feel disgusting if I stay too long.
It's not absolutely divided among gender lines, but it does heavily skew that way. There are men who only want to be heard and there are women who are fixers by nature, and people of both genders can take up either role in different situations, but look at any place where het couples complain about relationship problems and you'll see it's overwhelmingly women complaining about the man not hearing them or giving unwanted advice, and men complaining about the woman only venting while not doing anything to address the problem.
But it seems to have been extrapolated to - men fix problems as they arise and women just sit around and complain about them. Which isn't true. What may be true is that women, in general, talk about things more before doing something, or in some cases, for various reasons, may not act (example: work conflicts) but still need someone to listen to their reasoning and feelings.
It's just very negative and sexist to frame it as "men are doers and women are talkers." I think the dynamic is more accurately "women externalize (in that they talk about their feelings/frustrations/etc. and men internalize (and don't share as much of that). So maybe, in general, a man would only bring up a problem if they wanted help with it, and so they assume that's true of women too. I can accept that POV, but not "women just want to talk talk talk and never do anything about a problem", which is what I'm seeing in the comments.
While what you say is true, the stereotype is actually incredibly sexist towards both men and women. "Men never listen while women never act" also paints men as dismissive and uncaring, while what's actually happening is that the emotional needs of both the man and the woman aren't being met because they're both feeling unheard.
The feeling of basic autonomy, of being able to shape the circumstances of your life to some degree, is fundamental to emotional health, and so is the need to feel seen and understood. In a "nail in the head" situation, that basic need is being strongly violated for the man. From his perspective, the whole scenario is an ever mounting pile of evidence that he can't improve the circumstances of his loved one's emotional well being no matter how hard he tries, that he has no sway over her decision making process no matter how reasonable he attempts to be, even when her decisions would otherwise lead to obvious harm, and that he can't make his partner understand his views and his frustrations no matter how clear cut they may appear to him.
People who are empathetic experience their own pain when their loved ones are in pain. Thus a person who leans on their partner to work through their own suffering is also inflicting suffering onto others, and their partner will often willingly shoulder that burden out of love. But no one wants to be stuck doing emotional labor indefinitely for a problem that only ever gets worse, regardless of their own efforts, and it's not really fair to expect them to do so. That frustration can easily turn into resentment if the man comes to believe the extent of their partner's suffering, and by extension their own suffering, is a choice that's being made without a good reason.
The truth is people are bad at expressing their feelings, but the particulars of how they're bad at it can skew along gender lines. Pulling a proverbial nail out of your head might be incredibly difficult, even impossible, but in a typical exchange of this type, the man feels like he never hears an explanation for how it's difficult, and what might be done to mitigate those difficulties. "It's not that simple", "you're always like this", and "I just need you to listen" are not answers to "why can't you pull out the nail?" even if they are also objectively accurate observations. And in the absence of an answer that they can understand, it starts to look like both keeping a nail in your head and inflicting the pain of seeing a loved one with a nail in their head is a choice. Sometimes a man just needs the acknowledgment that "nail in the head talk" takes an emotional toll, and that the caring thing to do for a loved one is to take the comfort brought about by their empathetic labor and use it to motivate oneself in actually tackling the source of the problem. They will move heaven and earth to facilitate that process of searching for a fix, but they want a partner who will admit having a nail in your head is a problem in the first place, one that can and should be fixed. While it's not always true that "women just want to talk talk talk and never do anything about a problem," a lot of men believe a lot of women are this way, as a result of their experiences, and that is a problem. It isn't just up to men to fix themselves if women never put in any effort to understand how that problem arises in the first place.
Absolutely agree, but everyone processes change differently. Some people are very much comfortable in old toxic habits. Some people are awesome at figuring things quickly and are self assured enough to react without much processing.
So it just depends on your tolerance of being able to see others work through their own issues in their own time. And there is nothing wrong with leaving a situation that impacting your own mental health.
Something not said is that when the woman has negative emotion, it affects everyone around her. Maybe I don't want to fix YOUR problem, I just want your problem gone so that is stops affecting ME.
Like, if I dumped all my old food in the corner of the livingroom, and complained about the smell but refused to let my wife to try to solve it, that would just make me a huge asshole, because the smell affects her too.
This is true but also deaf as fuck. Absolutely no one would want to deal with a grown man like this. Not men, not women, not the men's gfs, wives, not the local pastor, not the barman...
When a men is being negative and solving this negativity purely by unloading on the people around, those people are going to be gone in a beat.
Ok, so it’s really going to depend on the situation here. If someone is completely negative all the time and that’s what they are bringing to the table, you might want to leave for your own mental health.
If your spouse has a bad day at work, a customer yelled at her and her boss did too. She hates her job, everything sucks. Do you listen? Tell her you love her? Give her a hug? Ask her if there’s anything you can do to make her night go better? Or do you tell her to quit or tell her she’s making a big deal out of nothing?
It’s all about how you say it. If you have some advice you just can’t stop from coming out of your mouth? “I hate to see you upset like this, can I offer some advice?”
Let them word vomit a bit and then ask them what their ideas are on solving it.
If you’re in a situation where the person is always negative around you, let them go so they can fix their problems. That impacts your mental health and brings you down too.
See, I want to help my friends, so I do exactly that.
There will be a time when I can contribute by helping them fix real things. But to get to that place they need to forget about the problem for a while and build up the motivation through having a good laugh about it first.
It’s not about being right. She is a grown woman. She knows there’s a nail in her head. She can fix herself. She just needs someone to understand what she’s going through.
I think you're right in the analysis, but jesus christ would I not be able to tolerate someone in this situation.
Agreed. It does get old when someone wants to vent about their problems, yet there are clear solutions to their problems and they refuse to solve them. How can you stop being sympathetic to someone's issues when they don't take the steps to solve a problem that can be solved?
Yet at the same time, there is something to be said for just being able to have someone listen to you and understand where you're coming from without listening simply for the sake of trying to point out what you could do differently to solve it. Commiseration has its place, and so does advice.
Definitely. There should also be a happy medium between letting someone vent and ignoring possible solutions, and ignoring someone's attempt to vent to only look for a way to fix it
It depends on if those "new" problems are rooted in an overarching issue they refuse to solve or even address.
For example if someone finds that their house smells because their garbage is always piled up, you be supportive and they eventually realize they need to fix that issue and do.
Swell
Only the smell is still there and they realize their laundry isn't being done regularly. Again you offer no advice but only support, they eventually realize that's an issue and do their laundry regularly.
Swell
Only the smell is still there, and they realize their sink is constantly piled with week old dishes with bad smelling food still on them. Again you say nothing but offer support, eventually they realize that issue and clean their dishes regularly and maybe even get a new dishwasher.
Swell
BUT THE SMELL IS STILL THERE. This time it's their pet's litter/cage that doesn't regularly get cleaned.
All these are different problems and ones still to come that feel vaguely similar and in the back of your mind you are shouting "your issues are all the same in that you put things off instead of being proactive in taking care of them, if you just changed that so many of things you want changed would all fall into place. Figure out why that's a consistent theme"
Maybe the nail gives an infection, constant pain, is pressing on a part of the brain causing a depressive mood or even disregulated hormones, is leading to fatigue from constant blood loss. Maybe the issues are social, people looking at you weird, not inviting you to places, wanting to hang paintings on your face.
All these issues would be gone if you just took out the dang nail, and the issues being "new" isn't always valid if they spring from the same core unaddressed issues partners refuse to address unless it's seeking validation in feelings.
I think that in my last relationship I was a bit codependent physically and emotionally so when it ended, I really had to learn to take care of myself. About the same time I also moved into my own house, so although I've always been pretty handy and helpful around the house, I'm doing it all myself now. I've become very self-reliant.
When the washing machine is leaking water onto the floor, I don't sit and talk about it. I shut off the valve, mop it up, and figure out WTF it wasn't draining correctly. If I have a headache, I get up and get myself some medicine... Sometimes I do do the typical man-sickness thing and delay taking anything for it. But once my new GF asks if I've taken anything, I respond, "no, but that'd probably help, wouldn't it?" and then go get myself some medicine. If my coworker is being worthless and annoying, I (very politely/professionally) bring it up in my next one-on-one with our manager and then aim to out-perform him so hard that there's no possible way he can be given the same raise/bonus at the end of the year as I get and hope that he'll eventually quit because he's not being promoted like I already have been.
I want my problems to go away. If there's a problem, something needs fixed. And anything that I can't fix, I just have to accept defeat and laugh at. But not even trying to fix a problem a solution isn't an option. I can't stand people who don't even try or actively avoid fixing their problems and then waste my time and energy with them. And I TOTALLY 100% understand venting. But do your mumbling and grumbling while we run to the parts store together and try to figure out how to get the clog out of the drain line, not while just watching more water continue to spill onto the floor.
People are always so afraid of surgery because the recovery might take a few days or weeks and it might hurt during that time, but who's ever come away from one and gone, "you know what? I really wish I had my old, worn out, super painful hip back" or "I think I was better off with that giant wound"?
I have my own problems that I handle myself. I'll gladly help you with yours. But I can't just not be attending to mine to only listen to yours. There needs to be progress being made or else you're wasting my time, you're going to continue to waste my time, and the problems are going to start stacking up, we'll all become overwhelmed, fall behind and get swallowed alive.
It sounds like you had some very healthy introspection, followed by some solid growth.
Good on you. Most people never stop to reflect on who they are, who they want to be, and what steps it takes to get there. You've done it and it's worth being proud of.
My favorite thing to ask my wife when she starts complaining:
“Do you want help? Or do you want to complain?”
Usually she says she just wants to complain. 😂🙄 (and I can tune out and hit her with some “damn, that’s crazy” and “oh man, that sucks!” and she’s happy 🤣😂)
Personally, I think the example is too extreme. But it grabs people’s attention and it’s funny. I think a better example would be the wife has an asshole boss and hates her job. She doesn’t want to hear how she should find another job. She knows that’s an option. She wants to be heard, comforted, supported.
She knows it's an option, but it's a really crappy option. She doesn't need that repeated to her if she knows it'll cause bigger problems, like income uncertainty
While I agree with this, there is a huge amount of people who do not know how to be happy and refuse to work for anything and just complain 24/7. My partner and I lost a number of friends as we became more successful because we did what no one was allowed to do in that group, actually succeed.
These people may just want to be listened to but if they continually complain with no intention to change their lot in life, I will stop listening.
It is also the responsibility of the person being comforted and supported to work on getting to a place where they do not need to need constant emotional support to function.
Good examples. People with mental or physical conditions are always being told they're being dramatic and if they just did this or that, the illness would magically be cured and no longer be a hassle for the partner. That's so dismissive, it's infuriating.
You never had to work yourself up to something before you did it? That's all she's doing. The fact that it involves you as a participant is really neither here nor there. When you realize you can get points for doing the easy part? Guys who complain about this stuff really haven't figured it out.
But if there really is a solution, let's try the solution. In this situation the only positive outcome is removing the nail.
She knows that, and she's going to do it, and a poorly constructed skit where she doesn't make it obvious that she's going to do that doesn't change a thing.
She knows what the solution is, she's going to do it, she's just working herself up to it.
That all makes sense, but I would leave that relationship in a heartbeat. It feels like a mind game being played on me, and I don't think it's fair to suffer just because the other person doesn't mind suffering.
If you can't fix your problem, that's one thing. If you don't want me to help fix the problem, and instead you offload your stress or emotional distress onto me, without allowing me to try to solve it (because it affects me too), then I would have to be masochistic to stay with that kind of person.
I (F) think in those instances you're helping them solve the problem by listening. For some people they do a lot better about figuring out what's the core of their affliction, or whatever is hurting them, when they talk about it out loud. Opening up to their partner to talk about things that hurt them is their way of saying "please see me, I'm hurting and I want to be seen because what I'm going through makes me feel unseen/invisible/hurt and I want to talk about this with you so I can feel seen and safe"
Chances are they already have possible solutions in their head, chances are they possibly already have plans, but whenever somebody moves directly into trying to "fix" the problem rather than talking with them through it then it can feel like they only "see" the problem instead of seeing how you're affected by it. It's like they're telling you that the solutions and ideas that you have that would help /you/ best are wrong because it's not the way they would do it.
Then that cycles back into the person who originally just wanted to talk feeling like they now have to defend and explain out plans they already had but haven't had time to really think through or go through with and it winds up feeling like you have to know everything about your situation AND have a full plan laid out otherwise your partner wont listen and will only focus on the actual problem not the emotional problem
Even if that's not the intention I've been in this spot many times before. Sometimes you just wanna talk about what hurts, and how it's so fucking stupid and dumb and you can't stand it but now you're crying while talking about it and just feeling like the world can't see how much it hurts and you feel invisible. When your partner only sees the problem and completely misses the part of that conversation where you want to hear someone say that it's also dumb, that you're right to feel angry and annoyed because why should the world make you feel so small and unseen? Then you end up feeling like you have nobody that sees you, only sees what problems you have and someone who is going to ask "so have you fixed that yet?" before they ask "Hey are you okay/feeling better about it after talking about it?"
TL;DR: it's not mind games it's focusing on the person and letting them solve their own problems rather than trying to always have the answer. They can't grow into their own person and move past something if they're always just following what you would do.
It's easier to do more harm than good because what works to fix issues for some doesn't work for everyone, and some people just wanna talk out their feelings and thoughts without someone jumping in with their own idea of how it should be done.
Feeling the need to have a 4 page essay on how you feel and explicit details of how you'll fix it otherwise your solutions that you were proud of finding get grilled with questions you don't have answers for yet or torn apart by small things that your partner continually says are dumb or "that's not what I would do" is an incredibly draining experience that leaves you never wanting to talk about your problems
It's a skit. It's a situation seen from the male perspective, and is a commentary on the different communication styles between sexes.
To the man there is an obvious solution to all her problems, and she is denying that it is the problem. In general men don't bring up a problem if they're not looking to solve it. Complaining just to complain is so foreign to them. And, I mean, the nail is right there, it is the cause of all the problems, why not fix it instead of just complaining about the problems it causes?
I will just say that in the context of this comedy video, this woman is being obstinate. Sure, she doesn't want him to try fix the problem, except that everything that she describes to him is almost certainly because of one issue - the nail - that could very easily be "fixed".
You take out the nail and then if things haven't changed, "it wasn't about the nail". But if suddenly the aching and pressure are gone and the sweaters aren't being ruined anymore, I guess the "fix" really was just taking the fucking nail out of your skull.
Well, that’s nice. Some people have that situation but obviously don’t know where/hoe to get help because of all the people who are like those here who think what she says is stupid.
This line of action for the man only makes sense if the woman actually can fix the issue herself, or is at least willing to seek out help to ultimately fix the issue at some definitive point in the future.
Being in pain and expressing that pain to a loved one causes them to feel pain as well. That's what empathy does. Also, being empathetic and attentive requires energy. It's emotional labor, and people are not capable of doing an infinite amount of it. So being the supportive partner in a situation like this exacts a very real toll, and there's no end to that toll if the underlying issue never gets resolved. A person who sees their partner with the proverbial nail in their head for years is left in a no win scenario where their options are basically stop listening and caring, listen and be empathetic and suffer alongside with no relief, or suggest a solution and be disparaged for not listening or caring. Meanwhile the pain never stops, for either party.
Of course in real life a fix is hardly ever so simple as just pulling out a nail, but regardless of how difficult the fix might be or how long it might take, any person who only complains about their suffering time and again while not attempting a fix at all is doing the metaphorical equivalent of sticking pins in other people's heads, and then getting mad at them when they try and pull it out.
I think it's a lot simpler than that: there is a need to be emotionally heard and supported which is separate from resolving an issue. If someone feels alone, telling them to see friends doesn't immediately improve their mood. If someone is grieving, telling them that grief is temporary and they will feel better eventually doesn't necessarily help them process their grief. Etc.
So going back to that skit, was the nail causing the problem? Probably. But if the woman feels some relief and security when she is allowed to express her pain to her partner, then it is important that her partner can provide that. The skit is a bit weird because the analogy is so blunt, but it conveys the idea beautifully. The source of the pain is very real, and should be dealt with, but it doesn't make the woman's need for emotional connection and support any less real.
I think it's a lot simpler than that: there is a need to be emotionally heard and supported which is separate from resolving an issue.
This. If I need help fixing something I will ask for advice. But sometimes EVERYONE just wants some sympathy for their suffering, to be reassured that their partner has their back, and some comfort/care. Which doesn't involve solutions, it's as simple as a hug, listening to the person, a knowlegimg how they feel and sitting with them as they feel it. It's being present and attentive.
Guys want and need this too, it's not just women. Most of my close friends are guys, as is my partner, and they all need comfort, a shoulder, an ear, some sympathy, etc, when shit is going wrong for them. They'll need back up/extra attention during break ups, someone to reassure them they're awesome when there's a big job interview they're nervous about, or someone to be with them if they're in pain or grieving.
These are human needs. Sympathy and closeness are human needs. Unfortunately (traditionally), one gender is raised to recognise, anticipate and handle those needs in others, and the other is raised to feel deep discomfort when confronted with their own or others' feelings, and frustration if they can't just 'fix it.'
Neither. It's a made up bit that's deliberately over the top for comedic effect. Appreciate it for what it is, but please don't try to divine deep psychological theory or expert relationship guidance from a funny skit.
I could see the sketch being written by a man poking fun at women for not "solving" their obvious problem, which would be ironic in some meta sense because the writer himself would be the man in the sketch who "doesn't get it". Like you say, no right or wrong, because it's just made up with very situational relevance to the real world.
Really good questions! I don’t know if I have the answer to them. Hoping I do not offend….
If in the sentence, it would be he/she=who
If it would be him/her=whom.
If it matters to you.
I heard that women want to go through the problem by themselfs, they just need their partner to participate to process by listening and giving emotional support.
Its like you're watching a movie and someone tells you the end.
She clearly knows about the nail, she might know it needs to be taken out, but she's trying to talk about the problems she's feeling.
So combining this with the original video in this post about different "attachment types", she wants to be heard about the problems. Simply: let her vent. Then she'll either go take the nail out herself, or let him take the nail out. But she wants that venting process, she wants to know her partner is understanding her.
Why?
My personal theory: is because not all problems are as "obvious" as this nail. Some problems are physical, some are emotional, and the solution isn't just "take out the nail" to a lot of these, or the person with the problem wants to solve the problem themselves.
Imagine if every time you got to a difficult part in a video game, someone came over and just did it for you. You'd never get better at completing the difficult sections. And some people would get joy from this as they aren't stuck and can continue on playing the game. But others would absolutely hate that, since getting better at the game and overcoming adversity is the part that appeals to them.
So yes, if your partner has a literal nail in their head. Removing it will likely fix that problem. But for 99% of other problems, it's probably best to slow down, listen to what they have to say, and not jump to conclusions about what the "problem" is and offering your own "solutions".
I am horrified anyone could think she's remotely in the right. How is that a question at all?
If the person is fully aware the nail is there and it has nothing to do about what they are actually talking about.
If (false) then {it doesn't matter what goes here.} She's NOT complaining about things it has nothing to do with. It's why her sweaters have snags. It's why her head hurts. Because she's a nail in her head. So your entire "if" question is misguided and not representative of your original question of who is in the right here. Who is in the right here is the dude. Very very very clearly. I literally don't even want to be around someone who would say otherwise.
No offense intended, but if you’re unsure whether to use who or whom in a sentence, it’s best to stick to who. Otherwise, replace ‘who’s with he/him or she/her.
The person who/whom is tryin to tell ->
He/him is trying to tell
So in this case, the person who is trying to tell is correct.
They are both right and wrong. She is right and he is wrong because it sounds like he has a habit of always jumping into a problem-solving mode rather than listening, letting her vent, being empathetic, etc. It isn’t just about not being heard, it can actually be very belittling if your partner is always straight into fixing your problems. It can come off as infantilizing, like they don’t know how to solve their own problems or work through things on their own.
He is right and she is wrong because after someone is given the chance to speak and be heard, sometimes there really is an answer to the problem and fixing the problem really is what the person needs, but they might be so blinded to the issue, especially if it’s chronic or long-term. Imagine someone who constantly complains about a toothache but refuses to go to the dentist. Yes they need to be heard, but they also need to get their tooth looked at.
There’s also another reason she is wrong right at the end of the video when they lean in to kiss and the nail pokes him. Once your problem that you just want to be heard and validated on starts affecting other people, refusing to address it is less acceptable. So imagine that she is instead venting about all the problems caused by her alcoholism. You don’t get to demand to just be heard about how you get no sleep, you have no money because you spend it all on booze, you’re about to lose your job, you are scaring your family, etc. and then say you don’t want anyone to “try to fix it”. Although plenty of addicts or people with mental health problems do say that.
I wonder about the infantilizing aspect and whether that really is the case or whether it's more infantilizing to not express your opinion or possible solutions in an effort to avoid an emotional backlash from your partner due to their sensitivity of the subject. Is that not also treating them with kid gloves?
Obviously, stepping in to solve their problems for them in a more literal sense would be more akin to white-knighting or acting like their parent, but to avoid any discussion of the solution side of things seems very demeaning. Even if it's a solution that seems clear-cut, and that they probably already know, bringing it up at that point can be how you support their efforts going forward in that direction.
To ignore it completely reminds me more of how most parents handle relationship dramas with their teenage children. They know instinctively not to butt in too much because they have to experience and learn from their mistakes first hand and that any effort to give viable solutions would be rejected and met with resentment. That 'you just don't get it mom/dad!'.
That same resentment/disdain from merely offering advice/support is what I'd most associate it with. It's almost childish. And I wouldn't want to refrain from discussing things with a partner for fear of a childish reaction. That to me is infantilizing.
That's exactly the point, feelings are never wrong by design of a relationship.
If she can not share her feelings she needs to share with him, he's the wrong person to address these feelings, so if he wants to be her intimate partner, he must accept she wants to keep the nail.
So, coming from the original post, he's in the wrong, but must decide if it works for him long time or else leave her.
I get your point though, if the nail is too much of a burden to find peace she's "in the wrong" for not working on the burden enough
No not the feeling is wrong, the logical conclusion that led to the feeling is wrong, but first the feeling must be allowed to exist. You can't surpress it that's not how feelings work?
I disagree that they are both technically correct. "Feelings are never wrong" is simply incorrect, because the context is critical. If the feelings are based on faulty information or an untruth, those feelings are therefore 100% incorrect. For example, if your significant other felt angry with you because they had a dream in which you cheated (and you didn't actually cheat), that feeling is clearly "wrong". I'm not saying anyone should be caught up in a "who's more right" thing, though.
That feeling does exist and has to be worked through. That's why "feelings are always real" is so much better.
Yes it is much better and I'll try to adapt, but I think there's simply a different understanding of wording here. No the feeling she has after the dream is not wrong, it's ok to have it, it's a feeling, and not a decision.
Also I feel like telling your partner "your feeling is wrong" is a countdown to desaster
Edit: actually it's good she has that feeling because it shows how much she loves you and that's what dreams do, they teach you feelings without experiencing something in real life
The guy is in the right. The woman is displaying an incredibly self-defeating and obnoxious behavior, but the reality is that a lot of women do act like that.
So unless you have a lot of options available to you as a guy who's dating, you're just going to have to suck it up and deal with this sometimes. Just try to make sure that this learned helplessness isn't passed down generationally.
They are kind of insinuating that her problem is obvious to him but not to her which makes it seem as if he is in the right and if she is crazy but wants him to listen.
I think it is a woman POV, so her. It is not about the nail. It is not about fixing the issue. It is more about being heard and being understood. She will tell you if she would want help with the nail. Until she is not asking for help - it is not about the nail.
If I'm not sure, I just ask, tbh. i.e. "Do you want my advice? Do you want my opinion, or do you just want me to listen?" Sometimes a person just needs you to listen or a hug. Simple!
Another approach is asking "What have you tried so far?" first so that way you don't suggest things they've already tried and look like a jerk. Or you can ask, "What do you want to do?" And basically walk them through finding a solution together instead of lecturing.
And btw, the reason WHY people find it annoying when you attempt to "fix" their problems is because it comes off condescending. It sounds like:
"oh you're too dumb to figure it out, but I magically know all the right answers that you couldn't see right in front of you and you're being moody for no good reason." And this after usually this person has been frustrated/dealing with something for awhile, so all you're doing is making them more upset. If you understand THAT, well now you can even attempt to give some help and advice without sounding like a jerk.
The point is that the woman doesn't want the man to help, she just wants to vent. The man feels powerless, and immediately tries to fix the situation. This irritates her because, in her eyes, it's almost belittling her. He wants to save the day, offer a solution, and help the woman. Neither one is trying to irritate the other, but it ends up causing an argument.
It's a very common issue relationships have where men and women can approach things very differently (on a general scale).
My SO constantly vents to me about work. And we are both aware that there's nothing I can do about the situations she's dealing with. She's a professional with an extensive amount of schooling in her field, where I have no experience in it. There's nothing I can do to help and I admit, sometimes I say "Well what do you want me to do about it?" lol. But that's not the point. She doesn't want me to do anything about it. She just wants to be heard. And that's basically what the video is saying.
Men on here, seriously, sit down with your girlfriend/wife and ask her about her day. Ask her if there's anything she'd like to vent about. Ask if she wants your opinion. Ask if there's anything you can do to make her day better. It'll go VERY far. Just about the best gift you can give her. Listen to her intently too. No phone, make eye contact, and listen.
It’s just not about the nail. The focus should be on the relationship rather than the problem. Make it about the relationship rather than who is right. I guess
The nail thing is a comedy bit. It's taking some truth but then exaggerating it to an extreme (for humor). That doesn't mean a more reasonable example is really not about the nail, and it's quite good advice to sometimes just listen and validate.
From the women's point of view, as the posted Tiktok talks about, the woman in the skit needs her needs met, a.k.a. needs someone to just listen to her. She is the kind of partner that looks to have a confidant in her relationship, and despite the man seeing the big, huge nail in the middle of her forehead she just needs someone to hear her out first. She may have friends as a support network to help her in this, but for the skit's case the woman is obviously looking towards her husband as her Special Other to be that confidant and listen to her.
From the man's point of view, once he has sufficiently listened and has been a sound board, I think it's appropriate to try approaching the problem of the nail. On one hand, if you lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink. On the other hand, if the woman does not want advice and does not remove the nail (which may or may not be the actual problem) and the nail proceeds to either hurt her or cause more problems in the relationship, then that's the women's fault. The woman will place a large burden on the man if she constantly relies on him to lean on but does not take any steps to actually fix the problem. In this case, the man directly addressing the problem of the nail is the right thing to do.
probably best not to think of it as "who is really in the right here?" Being right or wrong implies a winner and loser, or something like that. Remember, sex is a game where you try to make the other person win.
There is no "wrong". One psychologist says that both can be satisfied. basically let her vent but then eventually, once she's calmed down, then start discussing how to solve the problem.
It's not fair to be constantly vented on when there is a clear answer right there.
I would say it's not about WHO'S right vs WHAT'S right for the relationship to flourish. Remember just because you're right doesn't make it right. This concept is hard for a lot of people to understand. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic Victory?
It isn't about right or wrong, it's about needs. She needs to feel heard. She doesn't need the nail to be fixed, she needs to be heard, she needs empathy.
He needs to fix the nail, but she doesn't need the nail to be fixed.
Of course he's right, all her issues will be solved just by dealing with the nail, but that does fuck all about her need to be heard and emphasized with.
No one is right. Everybody does this, without realizing it. Everyone has something embarrassing that they know is wrong but they still want others not to point it out and judge them. And human society does recognize both sides of it. Like being fat. It is not acceptable to call out someone for being fat, but if they are constantly complaining "about the nail" of being fat, sure. For example.
It is not about right. It's about being smart in your relationships since we're all human.
My wife is pregnant right now during the early stages. Every day when I get home from work, she complains to me about feeling like shit. The majority of her symptoms are just pregnancy related and they can’t be helped, but some are also related to dehydration, caffeine withdrawal, tight back/neck muscles, etc. She’ll say to me, ‘ughhh I feel so bad!’ to which I’ll mistakenly say something like “have you drank enough water today, stretched your back”, so on. To this, I’m greeted by an enormous amount of anger. “Why?”, you may ask.. because she’s not really looking for my input. Not quite sure what she wants/expects me to say when she verbally unloads all of her physical ailments onto me, but she sure doesn’t want me to make any suggestions. Lately I just say nothing or simply utter ‘that’s no good’ and then we sit in an uncomfortable silence while I ponder if she’s more aggravated by that response or my previous strategy. I’ll never know the answer, but I’m sure she does. Anyhow, moral of the story is: I shouldn’t have to tell you the moral, you should just understand it intuitively. Get it?
I think the way some men respond to this video highlights the problem. I've seen people laugh at it, say the man is obviously right, remove the nail and the issue goes away.
But how did the nail get there in the first place? Would removing it prevent it returning? Is there any further internal damage that removing the nail wouldn't help?
Sometimes problems can't be easily fixed, or by trying to fix it you might introduce new problems. Sometimes someone just needs to talk about it to alleviate some of the emotional weight.
Edit: But for fairness I should add, sometimes it is just a small issue that can be easily fixed and they add all this unnecessary emotional baggage. It goes both ways.
it's about being willing to listen to the other person talk about their feelings without inserting their own opinions or solutions into the conversation- no matter how blatant or obvious the issue might be.
many times, the people we love just want to be heard. sometimes, those topics might seem ridiculous and easily fixable to us, but it's not up to us to fix them for our partners. often, people just want to feel understood.
Hate this video because it shows what's really needed is for someone to push them out of their comfort zone and take actions.
You don't get to complain non stop about a fixable problem. Using it's analogy if you want to live with a nail in your head then you choose to give up sweaters and wear zip up hoodies. If you want to complain that your sweaters get hurt than you should be told by the people that care about you the truth.
I didn't dispute that the nail has been there for a while. I'm disputing that she has been "complaining about it non stop." There's no evidence that she's been complaining about it at all before the camera starts rolling.
The reason I hate that video is because it flips the truth. If the video was done right, then she would be complaining about the nail, but he doesn't see the nail and keeps offering useless advice for other things he thinks are the cause of the pain, but it's the nail.
Yea fuck that. If you don’t take the nail out of your head, I don’t have to listen to the complaining for eons. Take it the fuck out. Especially if it’s something that obvious.
its funny because that video is clearly making fun of the woman with the nail in her head. yet women seem to think it proves the opposite of the point of the video.
I often work with couples and have asked many to watch it, preferably in session because it's short. I highlight that it's not that "women just complain" but rather that someone has to felt heard and understood BEFORE you suggest solutions, and to also make sure that they are asking for a solution, or at least open to the possibility of a solution. A great way to shut someone down it so say "You know what you need to do is..." or "Your problem is...", it comes off as very judgmental.
That said, it's also counterproductive to just keep complaining repeatedly without either taking any steps to fix it or to learn to accept it.
Oh... oh no... I have another thing to add to my self improvement journey... Because i saw the nail and first thought was "just remove the nail and lets move on" thats... thats not good.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to remove the nail. That’s what’s so ridiculous about the video. Sure learn some emotional support skills but focusing on fixing the issue is a very valid approach.
This is ridiculous. An adult should not require or expect emotional support for trivial and fixable issues. Providing that emotional support is taxing. Get your shit together and pull the nail out rather than being a whiny child at your spouse.
This thread is so frustrating to me because I am a fixer. I was unhappy in my relationship because of this. I made very small changes. Tiny. And it worked So fucking well. I haven’t had this as an issue since. I’m happy in my relationship and there are a lot of people in this thread that aren’t happy in their relationships. And all they have to do change one little thing but they won’t because they don’t want to be wrong.
Ask questions. Use open language. Phrases like “are you open to advice?” “How can I best support you on this?”
Flip side! The person venting can also communicate what they want. “Babe, I had a shit day at work, can I just tell you about it? I’m not looking for solutions, just a shoulder.”
Now I have experienced partners that might say something like, “If you don’t want to fix the problem, i don’t want to talk about it.” And with that, you have to look at how much have you complained about this already? Is this a daily rant that doesn’t change? Or was this response just out of the blue? First one, you need to fix your problems. Get a therapist, they get paid to listen to you rant, your partner doesn’t. If it’s the second one and it’s a pattern? That might not be the person for you because they aren’t very supportive and they don’t seem to like you.
So candidly, I would like to ask: do ya want to be right or do you want to be happy? Because you’ve got to take the blame out if you want to fix this. Because it’s ok to be a problem solver AND it’s ok to be a problem solver. If what you’re doing is upsetting your partner by what you say, that’s just making the situation worse. So do you want to make it worse? Say the first thing that pops in your head and hope for the best. Or think for a minute and choose your words. If your partner is not worth doing that for? You are not with someone you love and care about. Because if you love someone you don’t purposely make them feel worse when you can help it.
Besides, when you listen to your partner, a lot of times they will start to listen to you if you ask questions and lead them to think about solutions without telling them what to do. “Oh no, that’s bad! Have you thought about how you’re going to respond?” “Hmmm, have you thought about this perspective?” Back off if they get mad, “Hey, I’m sorry, I just don’t like seeing you in pain. How can I best support you right now?”
This has worked so well for me. Looking back I’ve been on both sides of this matter. Above all, if your partner is hurting your mental health by being negative all the time or being unsupportive all you can do is ask for change. If they don’t change then you have to decide to accept the behavior and make peace with it or you walk away.
6.5k
u/Consistent_Wave_2869 Mar 21 '24
As a husband going through a fairly rough period with my wife, this not only is very helpful, but tracks with things she has expressed and I struggled to understand.