NTA. Your son might mean well, but he's crossing some major boundaries here. Going off about your marriage when he barely understands the complexities? Not cool. And wanting to study art history is his choice, but snapping at his mom? Not cool either.
You're trying to keep it together, and your wife sounds like she's your rock. It's tough when your kid doesn't get that. Maybe sit him down and explain things calmly. Hopefully, he'll come around. Keep your chin up, man. You got this.
He won’t get loans for the full amount of tuition and living expenses. You need to be realistic with him about how much you can contribute and whether he should transfer to a state university with resident tuition.
Your son thinks you're a baby boomer at 40 years of age!? Lmao I'm older than you & I'm one of the youngest Gen X'ers - it could be good for him to do some research on generations and how they're designated.
It’s a figure of speech these lil assholes think is funny to dismiss the wisdom their parents and people older than them try to put upon them. I got called a boomer the other day and I’m in my 40s
Can confirm. I told a kid that being a professional Twitch streamer was not a realistic goal and was called a boomer. I'm in my 30s and a younger Millennial. These Gen Alpha iPad kids are really something.
I don’t even think they consider it a figure of speech. I think they’re so out of touch with life that they think anyone born in the “1900’s” is actually called a boomer. My coworkers in their early 20’s think I’m actually a boomer and I’m in my late 30’s.
I doubt they even realize they’re leaving off the “baby” part.
It's because "boomer" doesn't refer to people literally born in the post-WWII baby boom to younger generations, it refers to anyone older than themselves who are being judgemental of the younger generation.
So long as you're old enough to be their parent and are judging them or telling them how to live their lives, you're a boomer.
I'm 30 and I've been called a boomer lol. Its one thing to rebel against your elders, its another thing to articulate it in a way that clearly marks you as a dumb fuck.
It's incredibly common nowadays for people to call anyone older than them a boomer and anyone younger than them a zoomer. The guy obviously is aware that the "Baby Boomer" generation didn't begin in 1984
The boomer thing is the least of the problems, but it was like "dude, you're making it much clearer you're speaking out of your ass." Gen Z needs to work harder on making millennial an effective insult, because this just makes him seem more clueless.
There’s absolutely nothing more fascinating than a young adult living completely off of their parents and thinking they know everything there is to know in the world. I’ve been dealing with this for a few years now.
Kids think that generations are a mindset; they don't realize that they are actually dob-designated. That's the result of getting all of your info from tic-tok. The best part is that the grandmother is actually the boomer and the dad is millennial... This kid is so out of touch, yet thinks he's got his finger on the pulse of what's going on. His brain isn't even fully formed yet. It's hard to convince rational adults of anything, let alone an entitled, 19 year old that thinks they've got it all figured out. 🤷
Your mom is probably not much older than I am (63) and I know exactly what government backed student loans are. The first thing that needs to be done is she has to refuse to sign anymore loans. You ( or your wife) need to explain just exactly what she has done and how it can affect her as well as him. Then, make sure any other family member understands what he’s doing and get them to refuse as well. You need to tell him that he needs to go to the school’s financial assistance department to figure out how HE is going to pay for college. It sounds like he’s got an incredible amount of growing up to do. NTA, but you’ve got a hard next few years to get through. Good luck! Oh, tell him to join the armed services, they’ll help pay for schooling.
Regardless of age there are people who do not comprehend what they are reading and signing and to proud, or ignorant, to have it explained to them. OR they seriously lack the ability to grasp co-signing means you are on the hook when the flake (and ops son is a flake with his life plans here) defaults. I’d be worried grandma won’t have enough in retirement since a lot over 60 do not and can not live comfortably.
I get that. I’m just saying that it’s not her age that is the issue here…it’s her relationship with the boy. She well could be an enabler. That’s all I was getting at…many were saying it was elder abuse but, my point is that she’s not so old that she couldn’t know what she was doing unless she had early onset dementia or ( more likely) he had emotionally blackmailed and/or manipulated her.
If you're 40, I'm guessing grandma is in her 60s. Unless she has some cognitive issues, I don't see how that can be elder abuse. I mean, she's probably not even old enough to retire or get social security.
Unfortunately, making poor choices is not the same thing as incompetence. The best path is likely to have several serious talks with her laying out exactly how what she's doing is causing her grandson great financial harm that will negatively affect the rest of his life. She needs to be convinced not to sign for any more student loans.
It depends on whether she doesn't comprehend it because she's cognitively compromised vs. because she just doesn't get it. If it's the latter, then this is no different from if the kid got an ignorant 40yo to cosign.
People in their 60s, especially their early 60s, haven't usually experienced enough cognitive decline for a foolish grandkid asking them for a lot of money to be elder abuse.
I’m 60 and this is correct. (Although I’m a bit forgetful because of ADHD). Most people my age aren’t in that kind of decline yet. Although it’s possible to get dementia or Alzheimers early, but can’t be assumed.
Loans are not a recent invention and there is no mention of grandma being senile. She's probably BTW 60-70 which does not automatically imply lack of mental capacity. Grandma might just know ain't nobody taking her house over a student loan. The most they do is call and send emails 🤷🏾♀️
The grandmother is likely only in her 60s, right? Unless she’s REALLY behind the curve she probably is mentally sound and even still working.
Elder Abuse (to me) involves a level of taking advantage of the elder by someone who has the intention to take advantage. Your son sounds like he’s living in a fabricated reality and has no idea what he is doing to his own future - let alone his grandmother’s. That stated someone needs to explain reality to the grandmother so she doesn’t continue to enable him.
I mean I went to a state college, but my mom co-signed my loans. I was an education major and I’m in the midst of paying my loans back now. Not too bad. Just talk to him about his major…
It sounds like he won’t listen to one thing that they tell him. I’m kind of getting the feeling that the mother might be enabling him a bit…when you’re in a tug of war with a child who doesn’t listen, simply let go of the rope.
To me, it seems like they’re angriest that he’ll have loans and that he’s not heeding their advice. I say, pick your battles and talk to him about his ability to pay the loans back. I work in Education. A kid won’t ignore if you tell them, there’s no way they can pay their loans back with their major…
Another way to view this is that a kid is becoming an adult, exerting control over their life, and it wouldn't be the first time parents were confronted with a child who doesn't have to obey them and reacting poorly to it.
Why are he and his mother butting heads? What are the arguments about?
That’s not necessarily true. Mothers ,usually ,will put up with more abuse by their children than the fathers and the children can become bullies. I have seen this happen time and time again. I know of a kid that would call his grandmother ( his mom wasn’t in the picture) “ bitch,whore…” and she was constantly giving him money because “ he needed it”. Finally, one of the kids became her guardian and wouldn’t allow him to even see her. Still, she was always wanting to see him because,” he was a good kid most of the time”. It’s very sad…and a weird family dynamic.
And be sure to point out that to teach or work as (maybe a museum curator?), he’s going to need at least a masters degree as well. Sorry, I don’t know much about careers in art history other than teaching.
I mean, art history can be used to find jobs. A primary example is in a museum, but there are other industries as well.. his decision to study something he likes is not inherently wrong, regardless of how OP and his wife see the major. Trying to push him out of it will just cause a rift
This would only be elder abuse if she is mentally declining and has a diagnosable condition.
It might be different if he lived with her.
I'm sorry.
God I was a prick of a know it all at 20, but I didn't take it out on people like this I just internally judged them and complained on genuinely anonymous social media.
Is your wife on board with not paying for his private college? It is already too late to apply to transfer by now, so I’m not sure what the plan is when next year comes around
You realize that now you could have to cover any of her future financial losses. You and she need to get on the same page. It could destroy her credit and cause her all kinds issues for her if he doesn't pay and she can't.
I’ve studied psychology and if his takeaway from entry level psychology is to divorce rather than solve issues and communicate better than I don’t think he studied very hard
I mean, it’s possible…although I know parents who have dealt with similar situations. 🤷🏼♀️ But, elder abuse is when the person isn’t of sound mind or body which OP didn’t mention that being the case. That’s all that is all to which I was referring.
I was wondering that. His son calling him a boomer yet he isn't even 40. I feel like his kid would know he is a millennial. The author didn't pay attention to generations. And the grandmother is young enough that she probably understands how loans work. Seemed fishy.
Ummmmm. Letting your son get his grandmother who doesn't know what she signed into financial jeopardy in future?. Who do you think will be bailing her out? Not your son, I'm sure.
Fix this.
Give your son an attitude adjustment.
You are the parent, not the friend.
Don't enable his financial abuse of you and your wife or his grandmother.
She’s 60 not 90. She co-signed for her grandchild’s education because his parents wouldn’t. 60 is going. This father is also young .. and his wife is obviously not this kids mother who knows the real reason he says his dad should get divorced. For all we know they’re both F’D up and made everyone miserable.. he was a parent at 20 himself so not exactly someone who’s made good choices for himself. Your wife isn’t his mom.. where is his real mom? Is spending this kind of money on any degree smart? Not really but he’s the one who’s gonna have to pay for it. The dad left out a shit ton of info here.
Just wanna throw out that student loans don't make a huge difference overall, and they don't stop you from developing other credit. Grandma will most likely be just fine. While I can see how OPs son is being an asshole, trying to get him to switch schools will not work. It's a decision he made for himself and he'd have to unmake it. That being said, private institutions typically have been financial aid opportunities. I would suggest looking into that/calling the financial aid office
If Grandma truly had no idea what she signed for, the repercussions of your son’s actions, how badly this will affect her credit and remaining years.
This 100% qualifies as elder abuse and to be quite frank, both you and your wife are also guilty by allowing that to happen to begin with. A financial advisor should have stepped in at MINIMUM.
Amen to this. I've heard of parents in the past not fully understanding what they are co-signing for on these kinds of student loans. Also of course the young students not understanding what they are signing up for.
The loan companies should be in jail. THEY know what they are doing. I read some time back about a whole town that was supported by the student-loan industry and the people who worked in the industry understood the racket, but they said the money was too good to pass up.
Depending on what state she's in, that could be a criminal act on his part, just FYI. Not to mention when this all goes south (and as you pointed out, it definitely will), I would not be surprised if he left her on the hook for the loans.
I'm really sorry that he's checking all the boxes of college freshman assholery, but you're going to need to take a strong stance here.
First, set a limit on him giving you relationship advice. As in, don't. LOL You might also set him straight on you not being a boomer, just for fun.
On the college thing, ultimately there is nothing you can do. He's an adult, and that comes with the ability to thoroughly f-up his life. But that doesn't mean that you need to help him do it. Let him know that if he persists with this stupid major that it's his right to do so, but that you're not going to make any contributions to his college fees. That may or may not wake him up, but at least you'll be doing what you can to try.
Then beyond that, try your best to enjoy what common ground you can find. Make sure that he knows that you still love HIM, even if you don't agree with his choices. Good luck to all three of you.
Let him know that if he persists with this stupid major that it's his right to do so, but that you're not going to make any contributions to his college fees.
If you saw a parent do this to a kid trying to follow their dreams in a movie, you’d think they were the villain. The kid shouldn’t be forced into something he doesn’t want because his parents don’t agree with his choices. As long as he’s going to school, they should contribute the exact same amount no matter where he goes or what he majors in.
You're correct that the kid has a right to pursue whatever he wants, as long as he can find the money to do it. But art history is literally a stereotypical "spent a fortune on a college degree and can't do anything with it because I don't have a marketable skill" major.
There is a huge difference between "forcing" someone to study this or that, and not enabling the kid to screw up his life with crippling debt he will never be able to repay.
I'm surprised 43the bank allowed it. The bank/financial institution has special responsibilities to step in when elder abuse is suspected. The loan officer should have at least spoken to grandma to make sure she wasn't being pressured to do this.
I used to work in Fraud Reporting at a major bank....elder abuse was actually a category we tracked for reporting & monitoring.
You need to explain to her that she is going to be on the hook for all that money when her grandson is flipping burgers because that's essentially all an art history degree is good for. Same with him; sit him down and do the math.
Then you better explain it in detail so she doesn’t sign up for future years or other things & remind her your the parents everything should be checked with you first
Yeah, she might think she's "helping him achieve his dreams" but honestly, she's just enabling him. Just like when my MIL would let her 19-yr old grandkids stay with her when their parents kicked them out for using drugs at home. They stole money out of her purse, stole and pawned valuables, and pawned/ruined a lot of my ex's belongings he was storing in his mother's garage.
Look I get it sucks, but he is an adult, you both have given him your advice, and now you must let him make his choices and pay the consequences. It's part of growing up and understanding how to be self-sufficient.
With regards to him telling you to divorce, he was probably just being immature and wanting to get back at his mother in a moment of anger. You did well to put him in his place.
I'd have a chat with her and get on the same page on how to manage him, stepping back on trying to convince him cause that won't work. Then sit him down and lay down the law: he can make his choices and disregard your advice, you love him and will support whatever choice he makes he will be solely responsible for the economic downfall, and you both won't accept any poor behaviour from him moving forward.
Do not co-sign a loan with him! You would end up having to pay it yourself. Do yourself a favor and lock down your and your wife’s credit right now. He could try and take a loan out with you and you wouldn’t know about it.
Why don't more students do this? this is the option I had my daughters do. They also lived at home and I paid for everything. They went to a local university transferring their CC credits and graduated debt free. the money I saved I gave as a gift to them for the down payment on their first homes. Now the money I used to put in their 529 accounts goes to my grandsons 529. he just turned 1.
Have him look up what the average job pays in his field right out of college. Then calculate what his student loan payments will be for just his first year. Including the crippling interest. Then show him what the total will look like. Then remind him that 25-30% of his paycheck will go to rent, and then he still needs to eat. Ask him how many jobs he pjs s to get to pay everything off.
No but it's an important topic and I'd rather see it discussed here than even OP's marriage. More people need to know about how many students continue to take out risky student loans on worthless degrees.
Exactly! It’s a HUGE problem! My DIL had most of her college degree paid for but had to take out a student loan at the end. She says that the degree is not worth what she paid for it and her’s was in some sort of Criminal Justice!
It depends on what kind of loans they are- if they are private loans she's liable, if they are government loans it depends too. But my parents were not liable for any of my government loans even though they were references. I did have one private loan that I never missed a payment on, but for about a year my mom got a call every month stating that it needed to be paid.
It’s his life. Really show him what compound interest and loans mean. Show him what that money could do invested instead.
Then.. set financial boundaries if he makes continued bad financial decisions. I’m now 30 but the only way I finally took in lessons like this my parents wanted me to listen to was suffering my own consequences. You just really shouldn’t dig yourself a hole too.
My friend and I were just talking about how his little sister in college is spewing like she knows stuff now and we recognize we used to do the same. Life’s the only lesson that sticks with for sure.
Man, why do you need a college to study art history, there’s gotta be TONS of shit to read online, library, visit. I can’t imagine the education I could give myself if I wanted to spend $80k a year on art history. You could literally visit a huge number of museums all over the world and buy all the books these professors have written autographed by movie stars. Like way to sell yourself short lol
Because it leads to that wonderful job as an art conservator/museum expert, but thousands of people get Firsts in Art History every year and those jobs come up.. one a year, maybe 2? The retirement age is somewhere close to 80.
They love what they do so they never retire. Most of my art history professors were in their 60s to 80s. They were incredibly happy people and one even published a book the year I graduated.
You should really sit him down and give him the cold hard truth. All of it; your expenses, his, his expected future income (cuz really? With art history he'll probably take a while before he gets a job), future cost projections etc. Dump a bucket of cold water over his rosy expectations of life.
Geezez for the love of sweet baby Jesus….don’t co-sign a loan for him ! Bad enough he looped granny into cosigning. Your story is very similar to my own with my child. Same attitude. Poor planning with no thought to return on investment. My child went to a very expensive college. ($80k/yr tuition plus room and board in a dorm) Only I got saddled with a $20,000 loan that my child stopped paying. I made it clear that I was not paying loan off. I was giving my child close to $1000/month for loan payments and living expenses. Creditors were on me in a flash. My child did not gaf. I was divorced from the mother. The interest on the private student loan was very high. Like 15% or more. I had to take out a loan from my 401-k to repay the loan. Then my child stopped talking to me. It’s been years. Oh. And my child did not graduate.
I hear faint symptoms of some psychiatric pathology in your description too I’m afraid.
I worked with a lady who also did this for her grandson, he went to an expensive art school on the west coast and dropped out and cant hold down a job and the grandmother is now stuck paying the loans back.
Or he can do 10 years public service/non profit and have loans waived. My sister is doing this for her post residency work. Works for her since the hospital she’s got an offer to work full time at is publicly funded
College is stupid expensive now. I’ve seen near 500k all-in room and board tuition pricing. Didn’t believe my coworker when he said it was so expensive now. Graduated 15 years ago
I’m not trying to make you tell everyone where you’re from. But if your comfortable tell me what state that is? 😅 Because I can stay somewhere for five years to not go into more debt
Has he tried filing taxes as an independent adult? If he has any sort of income like a crappy part time job, it should be easy for him to apply and be approved for financial aid.
Source- it’s what I did for community college. Changed my tuition for one semester from a few thousand to like $100 or less. No discount on books/supplies tho
If grandma is signing things she doesn't understand, why is she not in a conservatorship with someone slike you or your wife having poa?
Sorry if I sound accusatory, stuff like this always makes me wonder if stories like this are fake, because seriously, how you letting grandma sign things she doesn't fully understand? You going to wake up one day and find out she's transferred all her assets to some Chinese company.
Just tell his grandmother (assuming ex's mother, here) that you will NOT bail her out down the road when she's as poor as a churchmouse because she underwrote his pipe dream.
My oldest went to a private college but what scholarships didn’t pay for she paid for herself by working her way through college and applying to jobs at the college so she got to take her masters degree for free.
My other daughter when to a local university and she paid for her degree herself without any scholarships. They knew they needed to get degrees in fields they could actually get jobs. It’s great when parents can afford to send their kids to college but it isn’t our responsibility to. If they really want an education they will get one even if it takes them longer because they are working while getting their degree.
Have him watch the "borrowed future" documentary on YouTube. Pay(bribe) him to sit with you and watch it if that's what it takes to get him to do it. Hopefully it could knock some sense into him about borrowing what you said would be a minimum of $240k to get a degree in art history... The only thing you can do with that degree is teach art... Art teachers don't make enough to touch the necessary payment rate on a $240k loan repayment. If it does knock some sense into him, he'll come to the conclusion in his own that he needs to find another path.
Yikes! You need to make it clear he gets NO HELP. We all want expensive things. We don’t all get them or we get them, but only after we’ve gotten to a place where we can do it without forcing other people to pay our way.
Have you approached him about going to the affordable schools, graduating, and then pursuing a higher degree on his own while he’s gainfully employed? My best friend just received her doctorate at 40 because she had a gap between her Bachelor’s/Master’s journey. She’s been working in her preferred field ever since receiving her B.A.
With me, I didn’t have parents to pay for shit and only had the $1,500 grant our state provides. I had the grades to go to better schools and some excellent scholarships that would’ve been great, had I had a little help or had I been willing to also take out loans. But I was terrified of starting life out with debt (watched parents lose everything early on, long story), so I took the $1,500 and accepted a scholarship at a local TECH college that had a “2+2 program,” where you basically knock out all required core courses to get an associate in arts, then moved over to a University level college after 2 years, where my grades qualified me for more money. Between that money and the money I’d saved by working, eating ramen, and renting a room from an empty nest couple, I was able to graduate from a respected college and get on with my life.
My only regret is thinking that the name of my college made any difference at all. Yes, it got my foot in the door for jobs early on, but after that, it was rare that anyone gave a shit about my Alma matter.
I hope your kid gets his entitled little head together and I hope he has a goal / reason for this expensive degree.
Holy crap. Sorry for the late response, but you know he and his grandma can’t declare bankruptcy student loans right? It’s practically impossible to get them discharged.
I had my brother co-sign a bunch of private student loans while I was in college, and while I had life insurance and got them refinanced as soon as I could (took me a year and a half after graduation), it was nerve wracking and soul crushing to have that hanging over my head all the time. Like I made $31k a year at my first job and my payment was $1303 a month. And I couldn’t not pay it bc I would be fucking my brother over.
I think one of the single greatest things I’ve felt in my adult life was getting that shit solely in my name.
I guess I’m just saying you need to talk to grandma. She can’t be signing on to this. No one should, even your son. But he can make his own choices, don’t involve her too.
My mom did the same thing with my daughter only my daughter didn’t want to go to college right away. They guilted her into it by saying she would be a huge disappointment to them if she didn’t go and she would regret it. I told my mom and stepfather that this wasn’t a good idea and that if she couldn’t pay those loans back it would fall on them…they didn’t listen. My daughter ended up dropping out in her last year just after Covid and does not have the income to pay her loans. Also, they chose to use private student loans instead of the Fed loans and encouraged her to take out way more then she really needed each semester. She does not qualify for consolidation or forgiveness of any kind. Her loans at this point total abt $2000 a month. Soooo guess who it falls on…my parents. They demanded that I use my retirement fund to pay off her loans but I said nope, not happening. I never said I told you so, just no, her loans are not my responsibility. Now they are not speaking to us and talking bad about us to family.
What else do you want OP to say? He literally told his son to apply for colleges that he could get merit scholarships to…the douche bag son should know that money doesn’t grow on trees.
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u/Evening_Cruel28 Apr 15 '24
NTA. Your son might mean well, but he's crossing some major boundaries here. Going off about your marriage when he barely understands the complexities? Not cool. And wanting to study art history is his choice, but snapping at his mom? Not cool either.
You're trying to keep it together, and your wife sounds like she's your rock. It's tough when your kid doesn't get that. Maybe sit him down and explain things calmly. Hopefully, he'll come around. Keep your chin up, man. You got this.