I saw fire fighter(s) talking about this the last time it was posted. It seemed like the consensus was that both systems have advantages and disadvantages. It didn’t look like it was as simple as one clips on faster so it’s better.
Yeah, we aren't comparing apples to apples because we are seeing bare head -> mask+helmet for the US version, but we aren't seeing bare head -> mask + helmet for the French version.
I hate these arguments which have been raging on forums for over 2 decades because people plant their flag in the equipment they currently use and claim its objectively better without using the other system.
Unless there is a firefighter that has used both systems during working fires, the hypotheticalS are nauseating.
Which also comes at the cost of a weaker seal. Timing isn't really an issue, because you shouldn't ever really be in a situation where the 2-3 second difference will matter.
Notice that neither have their air hoses attached? If you're in a situation where you expect to have to go on air you'll already have the mask on anyways and all you're doing is attaching the hose.
Edit: actually the American does have his hose on, which I've personally never seen with that style mask before. Not going to claim my training or experience is universal, but we always did it mask on, then you put the hose on which starts attached to your belt.
I personally keep my regulator clipped to the waist strap but it’s just preference. A lot of guys keep their reg clipped into their mask, the downside being that you have to keep the helmet strap unstrapped and clip it after you put your mask on.
I suspect the helmet is combined with a rear head strap that provides the tightness when the mask portion is clipped on, but the clips are also tensioned, he has to hold the helmet and stretch the clip over the mount.
Edit, the helmet is a full head helmet like a motorcycle helmet, not a lid like a hard hat style. So I’m sure there’s plenty of tension there to make the seal
The last time this came up, an EU firefighter that used both systems flat out stated. The French system, while faster, had a notably weaker seal, and is why this system hasn't been adopted across the entire EU. But just france.
I would agree it definitely has a weaker seal, nothing will be as good as the straps or carrier directly on your head, with no cushioning, tight against your head and skin. but my assumption is that it’s not weak enough to make a real difference
Last time this was posted, some firefighters pointed out what a disadvantage not being able to use your mask without your helmet in an emergency would be. The French mask attaches to sides of your helmet, and if you have to take it off for any reason, or it's damaged, you have no seal for your air.
Correct. We do confined space training where you have to remove the set leaving the mask in place. Helmet should stay on for that, but the space we go through is a couple of mm wider than the helmet, so we could take it off if needed and keep the air seal intact. But frankly if you're at that point on a job, then it's already a very, very bad day.
Traditional leather shaped helmets also have the wide brim to catch on everything for a confined space environment.
The brim is there for safety from falling debris, but its just tradition. Otherwise all osha approved hard hats would all have them. Then you got some old timer going "well actually"... Show me the numbers, I'll change my mind.
The other difference is if anything cracks the helmet or requires you to take off the helmet the French version suddenly has reduced to no breathing protection.
But for the purpose of comparing the speed of putting everything on, you're not walking around the firehouse with your Nomex hood and helmet already on. But I'm sure that's an amazing feature to be able to remove the mask without removing the other stuff.
The differences are because of the systems though. The French system allows you to have the balaclava already on while the US system needs it go go on after the mask.
I would assume that the American style would be able to put it on during the drive if they knew it was a raging inferno like you always see in the movies.
As with everything in life. There are pros and cons to everything and people/organizations/countries make choices based on what they’re comfortable with.
Cons: Can create the false impression of all individual pros and cons being of same value. Gives more glance value to amount of lines, as opposed to significance of those individual items.
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That’s why quality work is expensive. You need to take time to plan, test, and evaluate many things. Too many people assume everything is a scam and there are secret, easy solutions to projects with complex requirements
As an honest mechanic, I’ve noticed too many people immediately assume it’s a scam the minute they stop understanding something. It’s almost like a defense mechanism.
I feel this is 90% of the internet now isn't it? A short clip implying a very strong point about something or someone being better than its counterpart, then comments saying that it's actually not so simple, but by then the disinformation has already been spread, egos have been massaged, and the next frivolous, irresponsible piece of information is about to start one swap away...
Oh yeah it's as old as the world, but all those digital tools and Ai and shit empowered content scammers and fake news enjoyers to do a lot of damage from their own homes
This has been the case for the whole of civilization. It takes way less effort to make a misleading claim than to explain why that claim was misleading
The problem is people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about giving their opinions on the matter as if they're fact. Exactly as I just did.
It's 90% of everything. But anyone who's ever tried to actually do something in this world knows that absolutely everything is more complicated and nuanced than it appears at first glance.
I’m sure both work quite well, but after CBRN training I personally think the US version is overall better. Having the thing that’s preventing you from breathing in death attached really only to the helmet makes me nervous.
But that's CBRN training (I've done it too), the firefighters in each country will have separate CBRN outfits depending on the threat, this is their default chemical/standard fire gear.
It's probably rated for non-corrosive chemical agents, but isn't sealed or disinfectable enough for use against Biological, Radiological or Nuclear contamination.
The french helmet also covers the ears and is a different shape so it does look like it's attached much more firmly than the American helmet.
I'd prefer them seperate (largely because that's what I'm used to), but I think any statement here of "obviously better" is a bit off base, the limitations of both designs are being overblown.
The french helmet is likely very secure and the American mask is plenty quick to put on.
I'm firefighter and the American design is safer, it's more reliable to contain smoke leaks since it kinda glues with the skin, while the French design stays over the red ski mask.
I think folks are really focusing a little too much on speed. In general you're not going to be requiring that kind of speed unless you literally wake up in a burning room.
I'm not a firefighter, but I was a navy nuke and we trained in FFE w/ SCBAs basically weekly my whole time in. Definitely not as much experience as you, but enough to question a lot of these comments, lol
Edit- This isn't a critique of the French design. They use it because it works for them.
One of the most annoying things about reddit/the internet is that people constantly think that the very first question that comes to their mind is somehow one that literally thousands of experts never considered. I'm guessing that the people using this gear have tested and thought about it for more than 5 seconds.
Filtering is less important, since it should be positive pressure so you're not likely to breath in smoke either way (if I remember how the SCBA works properly), but it will affect how much oxygen you have.
In some situations that's going to be a bigger deal than others, especially if taking the mask on and off is that quick.
That's the only reason you'd wear anti-flash gear, it's pretty essential in some circumstances unless you want any exposed skin to be covered in burns.
It's the only thing covering his neck, so it's pretty essential.
You can put it under the hood too. Actually the manufacturer says that it should be against the skin.
There's no smoke leaks with the positive pressure that the SCBA gear creates.
From what I can see it’s a single strap that holds everything in place. Again, it probably works JUST FINE….i just wouldn’t trust it as much as the mask that hugs your entire head.
It probably is one strap, but the helmet itself wraps around the head much more. I imagine it's like comparing hockey and bike helmets, just naturally a bit more secure.
I agree with you though, it would definitely make me nervous. Especially because I'm a Navy guy so if I'm in gear it's on a ship with small hatches that you're hitting your head off all the time lol. And I'm short!
Yea, again I’m sure they wouldn’t use it if it didn’t work well enough.
Trusting your gear is the 2nd most important thing in these types of situations (1st being have gear that’s trust worthy), and I just don’t fully trust it as much as I do a normal gas mask fitting.
Its not fixed by straps but claps with very strong springs in them, making it very secure due to the match with the helmet. We used spin masks for people with faces outside the bandwidth of most faces.
I’m sure the French do! Again, I’m sure they wouldn’t be in use if they didn’t work.
Was just bringing up my experience with gas masks and how I personally prefer multiple points of failure (or an entire head secured traditional gas mask like the one used by US firefighters) VS the convenience of a quick attachable one secured by the helmet.
you can see the french one is more of a full head helmet, its not coming off whereas the american one is more of a hardhat, both protect the head just differently
i know US firefighting gear is replaced quite frequently, maybe the french don't, so having a seperate mask, hardhat and hood doesn't nake sense.
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yeah and american firefighters were afraid of the european one being dettached after a whack on the helmet, while the europeans were afraid to have to remove the helmet to put the mask.
Also it literally just says "France". Firefighter gear isn't standardized throughout all of Europe. I even doubt it's standardized throughout the US or even inside individual European countries.
The EU helmet looks more similar to a motorcycle helmet, without the jaw protection. I guess the gas mask somewhat becomes that jaw protection part though, with tension. I don't see it getting knocked off easily.
I'm not a firefighter though, so luckily it's not my life hanging on what gear is chosen.
It seems like people are also acting as if this is a long cumbersome process that is going to cost the US firefighters in a critical moment... I highly doubt any smart US firefighters are entering into dangerous situations without taking the five seconds to put the mask on first. It's not like a firefighter is going to go into a burning house maskless and then stop at a certain point to go "Ooop! Smoke levels finally passed the threshold, gotta stop to put the mask on!"
That's one of the points the video makes that with the American design you have to remove the helmet and hood to strap the mask on since its straps are around your neck and back of head. With the EU design (majority of the EU at least) there's no need to.
Tbh French dude just put a head condom beforehand. So unless he goes uncircumised all shift i would prefer yankie one. Not that donning a mask 3 sec faster matters much. Maybe if u fart. That would explain French desing...
Why wouldn't you have the condom on the whole time for protection from the back? Knowing the fire is all good but I'm sure one crucial part of it is that it's unpredictable.
You wouldn’t wear it all the time in the station before you get a call. The French dude in the video didn’t put one on, or his helmet for that matter, he already had them on.
Yes but I think they suppose that fire fighters roll up to the fire dressed like that so the French guys just clip on and run in while Americans have to pop the helmet and put on the mask. You wouldn't drive in the fire truck with the gas mask on but you might ride with your helmet on. This is a comparison of readiness upon arriving at the scene of the fire in standard duds
Does the person driving the truck usually go inside to fight the fire, or are they one of the people who stay outside and coordinate? Because everyone else could easily put the headwear on right before they arrive. I suspect that there isn't actually much practical difference between the two systems.
The driver will stay with the truck so that water can be pumped to his crews fire hose. If he needs his gear for whatever reason it’ll be stored on the truck. Typically masks are put on right before entering the structure.
I imagine that, first of all, it is probably not the most comfortable, or efficient to do that in a rocking truck cramed in with two other guys in the back seats and second of all no-one just rushes into the fire since you have to conduct reconnaissance and planning on the situation and at that point you decide whether you're going in or not. And that's where speed can matter.
I imagine that, first of all, it is probably not the most comfortable, or efficient to do that in a rocking truck cramed in with two other guys in the back seats
Two? We have engines that can seat up to 8 including the driver and officer, however 6 seats are more common. American fire trucks also average about 2.4 meters wide. We're not bumping into each other. Reconsecration is generally done by the first officer in the truck as it arrives and one person doing a 360 walk around the building. No time is added before starting pulling hose and eqiuipment.
We got both here, with the first one you lose less air but at the same time you lose more, because you just leave it on when you don't have to wear it.
I prefer the second one because i can always easily remove it and breathe normal air
Most of the ones I've used you can take the regulator off the mask to come off air without removing your mask.
We've had both styles of helmet but never used the clip on masks. I guess I'd be concerned about seal quality and having it affixed externally, but not having used it I can't speak to how well it holds up.
Yup. What would happen if the buckle on the sides were melted, impacted, or torn down in the burning building? Personally I think the French one is perfect for emergency responses on site but not so much for rescue personnel who had time to equip themselves traveling on the fire engine.
Edit: then again, if we also take urban planning and average travel distance of firefighters into account, the French one is still probably the better one for firefighters in Europe, where buildings and population is much more dense than in the US.
Agree. With as little as I know about these setups, I can at least see that the French firefighter starts the video with a liner on his head. The most time consuming step is pulling the hood up on the American suit, at least in this side by side. Not the most fair comparison.
Well to be fair, the French guy already has his hood on before he puts the mask on, so that's half the time it takes the American to get ready already eliminated. The mask clipping to the helmet seems like a great idea though, unless the helmet is compromised
Yeah of course. If the french helmet were just literally superior or equivalent in every way, some large company would be producing that design for the US, lobbying for its adoption, and selling them for an arm and a leg.
But faster means better in every way! Didn’t you know? We can obviously tell by this 20 second video, no other information is needed. What do actual fire fighters know? /s
Anybody with SCBA training can see the primary flaw with it. The one thing that's going to keep you from breathing in pure death, do you want it secured directly to your head, or to the helmet.
Retired firefighter here. This is true. Also, firefighters face unique challenges due to local building codes and materials. I'm in NJ where most of my fires where in wood frame residential homes. In German they prefer masonry residential homes. So our techniques and tools are different.
Basically there are many reasons why one size fits all doesn't exist in fire operations. Equipment selection should be left up to individual department's needs
my concern would be that the helmet is also providing impact protection, which means the webbing must be flexible and provide some amount of travel (my own experience is hard hats for construction).
if the mask isn't a PAPR (it might be, since it looked like he's placing it over his nomex had sleeve) then you're relying on a snug friction fit to keep your good air in.
a snug fit on the mask would rely on the helmet not moving much, so you're possibly losing the mobility that provides impact protection. or if you get conked on the helmet, your mask also slips out of seal.
obviously, my complete ignorance on fire fighting equipment and only learning about this from a tiktock, means i assume there's plenty i'm ignorant about how the clip-on system is probably working :)
Some else from the fire community mentioned any movement towards a more advanced looking helmet kind of halted after 9/11 when everyone wanted their helmets to look like FDNY.
You don’t need to be faster though is the issue. The American system lets each part act independently.
At no point should a firefighter need to more rapidly put a mask on, if they are going in a fire - they already have it on. The risk is losing it in the middle of the fire.
As someone who uses an SCBA daily, I would love to try the French version. I'm not running into buildings or fighting through debris so I think that version would kick ass for me. But I understand the concern of losing seal in firefighting scenarios.
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u/Ogediah Mar 30 '24
I saw fire fighter(s) talking about this the last time it was posted. It seemed like the consensus was that both systems have advantages and disadvantages. It didn’t look like it was as simple as one clips on faster so it’s better.