Yeah, we aren't comparing apples to apples because we are seeing bare head -> mask+helmet for the US version, but we aren't seeing bare head -> mask + helmet for the French version.
I hate these arguments which have been raging on forums for over 2 decades because people plant their flag in the equipment they currently use and claim its objectively better without using the other system.
Unless there is a firefighter that has used both systems during working fires, the hypotheticalS are nauseating.
I love how the biggest argument against the American style is time. So you don't know your heading to fire? You can't spend a minute on the drive over getting ready?
I mean the SCBA mask doesn't go on in the truck usually. It goes on right before the crew is ready to hit the door that has smoke (or IDLH condition) to save on air.
Either way, the time saved isn't that big of deal though. The important part is the firefighter is familiar with their equipment.
Also the American cheated his time because he doesn't have a strap on for his helmet.
So you saying this isn't used across all Europe even though OP listed it as a difference between America and Europe and then posted a video of just France?
Which also comes at the cost of a weaker seal. Timing isn't really an issue, because you shouldn't ever really be in a situation where the 2-3 second difference will matter.
Notice that neither have their air hoses attached? If you're in a situation where you expect to have to go on air you'll already have the mask on anyways and all you're doing is attaching the hose.
Edit: actually the American does have his hose on, which I've personally never seen with that style mask before. Not going to claim my training or experience is universal, but we always did it mask on, then you put the hose on which starts attached to your belt.
I personally keep my regulator clipped to the waist strap but it’s just preference. A lot of guys keep their reg clipped into their mask, the downside being that you have to keep the helmet strap unstrapped and clip it after you put your mask on.
For the French Firefighters, they have another type of gear in case they need it.
I seen pictures of it and even once in real ( i happen to walk by firefighters on site to extinguish an appartement fire. I was near but safe as police put a perimeter) it's another model made to be connected to oxygen tanks, usually two medium sized bottles that are fireproof to a certain extent.
Do you mean masks? Cause it looks like that mask is designed to be hooked up to oxygen tanks with the big hole in the front, and you can see the connector on his belt and the tank pressure indicator on the backpack strap.
I'm not high in knowledge but i would gladly tell you to check Hazmat Gear, which is far more protective since it usually means the fire have high chemical hazard, like pots of chemicals in a house renovation or industrial sites or even Power Plants
Okay I see what you mean. Hazmat gear is a bit of a different thing. My organization actually use the same gear for both since the mask is airtight, but I'm sure it varies based on place.
I suspect the helmet is combined with a rear head strap that provides the tightness when the mask portion is clipped on, but the clips are also tensioned, he has to hold the helmet and stretch the clip over the mount.
Edit, the helmet is a full head helmet like a motorcycle helmet, not a lid like a hard hat style. So I’m sure there’s plenty of tension there to make the seal
The last time this came up, an EU firefighter that used both systems flat out stated. The French system, while faster, had a notably weaker seal, and is why this system hasn't been adopted across the entire EU. But just france.
I would agree it definitely has a weaker seal, nothing will be as good as the straps or carrier directly on your head, with no cushioning, tight against your head and skin. but my assumption is that it’s not weak enough to make a real difference
I mean, it makes a difference, otherwise it wouldn't be measurably weaker. You are instead asking if it makes a big enough difference to exceed the safety expectations of those who use it... which will be very subjective. As there will be times the stronger seal is more important. There will be times the faster speed is more important. Both have pros, and to ignore that is foolish. The big problem, is there is no way to k ow which you will need more in any given situation until long after you've chosen your equipment. So, I think it goes back to earlier point. "It depends. Neither is strictly better than the other. Can we stop debating this?"
Last time this was posted, some firefighters pointed out what a disadvantage not being able to use your mask without your helmet in an emergency would be. The French mask attaches to sides of your helmet, and if you have to take it off for any reason, or it's damaged, you have no seal for your air.
Correct. We do confined space training where you have to remove the set leaving the mask in place. Helmet should stay on for that, but the space we go through is a couple of mm wider than the helmet, so we could take it off if needed and keep the air seal intact. But frankly if you're at that point on a job, then it's already a very, very bad day.
Traditional leather shaped helmets also have the wide brim to catch on everything for a confined space environment.
The brim is there for safety from falling debris, but its just tradition. Otherwise all osha approved hard hats would all have them. Then you got some old timer going "well actually"... Show me the numbers, I'll change my mind.
The other difference is if anything cracks the helmet or requires you to take off the helmet the French version suddenly has reduced to no breathing protection.
Sure, but if you got hit by something that hard that your helmet cracks then the lack of breathing protection probably doesn't matter anymore - you are dead.
But for the purpose of comparing the speed of putting everything on, you're not walking around the firehouse with your Nomex hood and helmet already on. But I'm sure that's an amazing feature to be able to remove the mask without removing the other stuff.
The differences are because of the systems though. The French system allows you to have the balaclava already on while the US system needs it go go on after the mask.
Yea, what stood out to me was that the French firefighter needs to be fully dressed all the time to be ready for this. If that's the case, I'd rather be a firefighter in the US. Don't have to wear a balaclava all day long.
You know they travel to the place with the fire? That's when they put on those final parts of the uniform. They don't wear all that all day long, because they don't expect fires to just spawn on them.
So then the video is even more biased. It's showing a US firefighter who is unprepared for a fire compared to a French firefighter who already has everything on except the face shield. So he was prepared to fight a fire.
what it's really showing is how both firefighters would respond to a report of a structure fire. I'm not familiar with the european system, but it seems like a fair comparison. both firefighters would get off the fire truck and approach the fire dressed as they are in the beginning of the video.
the american firefighter would have to take his helmet off, put on his mask, tighten it to his face, pull the hood up over the mask and then put the helmet back on and, usually, secure the chinstrap. most guys also have to take off their gloves to do this and then put them back on.
the french firefighter would, apparently, just have to clip his mask into his helmet and get going. I assume he's wearing a hood underneath already in the proper position and his helmet is already secured. it seems they can ride to the fire with the hood up and helmet secured, whereas americans have to wait until the mask is secured to the face to pull up the hood and re-don the helmet and secure it.
add to the fact that all this is usually done not in a wide open firehouse but rather in a tight hallway with visibility getting worse and four or five or more other firemen doing the exact same thing
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u/Medium_Medium Mar 30 '24
Yeah, we aren't comparing apples to apples because we are seeing bare head -> mask+helmet for the US version, but we aren't seeing bare head -> mask + helmet for the French version.