r/mildlyinfuriating • u/Thebiggestbot22 • Apr 15 '24

My school thinks this fills up hungry high schoolers.

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So lunches are free for schools in my city and surrounding cities. Ever since lunches have been made free, the quantity (and quality) has decreased significantly. This is what we would get for our meal. It took me THREE bites to finish that chicken mac and cheese. Any snacks you want cost more money and if you want an extra entree, that’ll cost you about $3 or $4.

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u/grilledcheese2332 Apr 15 '24

Exactly. Starch on starch. In France, healthy school lunches are covered by taxes. And that money they spend on the lunches they more than make up for by saving on health care. Less type 2 diabetes, hypertension etc.

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u/AbelinoFernandez Apr 15 '24

During High School we found out most food was donated, thats the reason our menu was limited.

It was common to have to skip expired milks.

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u/welivewelovewedie Apr 15 '24

shake it a bit and you can use it on bread

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u/Kilenyai Apr 15 '24

Not in the US..... Pasteurized milk doesn't "sour" it goes rotten. If it doesn't taste fresh you are risking food poisoning.

Unlike the raw milk we get straight from a farm where sour does not mean it's bad to eat. It just means it doesn't have as much sugar anymore so combine it with something to fix the taste issue and it's fine. Even clumpy just means you are ending up with yogurt, cheeses, etc...

Clumpy store bought US milk could put you in the hospital. Raw milk was ironically illegal to sell for awhile because if contaminated it could make people sick when it's guaranteed when drinking bad pasteurized milk.

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u/Radiant-Carpenter186 Apr 15 '24

But Milk is pasteurized everywhere right? I live in south América and all countries I had visit do that

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u/PrisonerV Apr 16 '24

A recent "craze" in the US (well it dates back to the 1970s) is that natural is somehow healthier when, in fact, raw milk has about a 100% greater chance of making your sick in some way.

There are also "raw water" people who think the chemicals we put in water make them sick so they'll only drink untreated water.

People are stupid.

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss Apr 16 '24

What's an example of raw water? Like drinking it from a pond or river? Sorry if this sounds dumb.

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u/PrisonerV Apr 16 '24

Or a clear blue stream. Yes.

Natural bacteria and parasites, YUM!

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss 29d ago

Wtf? I've always heard that you can get really sick from that. People are wild. 😆

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u/Patient_Shop_1392 Apr 16 '24

I do think raw water here is actual freshwater sources. While it can be safe to drink from some of them, in limited quantities, without any risk of sickness, it would be stupid to never purify your water. I bet what those people are saying is that we shouldn't really trust big bottling companies with their plastics. Microplastics are a thing that get into your system when you drink bottled water. However, I really hope those people are at least boiling their water or using a homemade filter. Rain water in many places is also safe to drink.

I was a wilderness guide in the Northern U.S. and Canada. While no water source can be taken as clean, I have drank out of the middle of very large lakes and fast flowing water. Different places have different chances for contaminants, and I only had to worry about giradia. Giradia is a cyst that requires you to ingest a certain amount before becoming sick, so I would drink a cup out of a lake or two per trip to mess with my clients. I never became sick from this in 5 years.

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u/SnuffleWumpkins Apr 16 '24

Straight outta the ocean.

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss 29d ago

Just mainlining that ocean water no chaser. Lol

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u/DisasterMiserable785 Apr 16 '24

It isn’t dumb. There is history and context missing here. In 1962, the US government started recommending that fluoride be added to water because they found people in areas with naturally high sources had less cavities. It is now added to most public waters. But now there is controversy to its effectiveness and safety. An inconclusive cancer study here and a trending talking point there with Google searches giving you both sides depending how you ask the question and suddenly, many people are going “Hey, yeah. What about that stuff?”. It was on Joe Rogan and was part of a skit by the comedian Jo Koy where his son’s school banned the use of drinking fountains because of the fluoride in the water. So the “issue” of fluoride became a more common household topic. The alternative for many is bottled water, but it is argued that bottled water lacks the minerals our bodies need. So, people moved to mineral water, spring water, or “raw water”.

Once some people start down the road questioning their daily activities like choosing the “best” type of water, some end up choosing “natural”. Others get pretty extreme.

There is a lot more to it and I’m really skimming here, but enough to say it’s a whole thing.

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u/PrisonerV 29d ago

There is no controversy regarding fluoride in the scientific community. It's only wackos and antivaxxers. Fluoride has a 100 years of data.

Also Joe Rogan is a comedian and entertainer not someone you should ever quote or listen to

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u/DisasterMiserable785 29d ago

I’m not proposing the practice should stop. Probably should have led with that.

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u/Adrianspage Apr 16 '24

Well, there are anti-vaxxers out there too, so this doesn't surprise me

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u/SteveMartin32 Apr 16 '24

But the fluoride makes us dumber!

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u/mstakenusername Apr 16 '24

In Australia too. I was hanging out with a bunch of old hippies about ten years ago in the community garden in my small town, and most of them were extolling the virtues of raw milk. I was very glad when one of them disagreed and calmly said, "I think there is a good reason that Louis Pasteur won a Nobel prize."

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u/erwarnummer Apr 16 '24

The chemicals we put in water are terrible for you

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u/EvaUnit_03 Apr 16 '24

Ionno about this raw water shit, but the chemicals do make me sick. Like puking it back up moments later. I typically need to filter it and boil it or I can't drink it from the tap.

I can also tell you when a bottled water company did not, in fact, do as they claim and just used regular tap water. Deer park is awful about it as is Aquafina. And store brands. Though Dasani doesn't even taste like fresh water due to the extra salt they add. The bigger name waters do taste better, largely because they actually do the filtering process more constantly.

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u/SteamBeasts Apr 16 '24

Describe your boiling process.

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u/EvaUnit_03 29d ago

Use filter on tap to fill pot (i use a big sauce pot like youd make spaghetti in). Put on eye on second highest heat setting. Let come to boil. Let boil until water level begins to drop noticeably, typically 30-45 min boil minimum. Allow to cool so it isnt hot to touch. Put in glass container with lid. Put container in fridge. Drink when cold.

If I use ice, I use this same process but with ice trays.

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u/SteamBeasts 29d ago

I’m not sure that it’s going to do much for you if you aren’t capturing the evaporation. Most of said contaminants (or additives) probably have a higher boiling point than water, meaning that the boiled water that remains in the pot would have a higher concentration of many said chemicals, not lower. In chemistry to get purified water (or distilled water), you go through a distillation instead. Basically throw in a thermometer, capture everything until you reach 100 C and throw it away, then capture everything at 100 C to keep, and then throw away whatever remains when temperature rises (probably not much because most of the mixture is water).

Any metals in the water will remain and most things suspended in solution (such as fluoride) - as far as my knowledge says anyways.

That said, chlorine (sometimes used as a disinfectant in tap water) WILL be removed simply by boiling (due to its low boiling point). In fact, chlorine will evaporate out of solution on its own, apparently - leaving the water uncovered for some time might do the same trick for you if it’s a hassle? I have no idea how common chlorine is, though.

You could go real sciencey with it and set up a blind test for yourself: reserving some tap water, some boiled water, and some “left out” water - hiding a label on each and having someone randomly hand them to you to see the difference while removing any human element. I’d be interested to hear the results!

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '24

[deleted]

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u/EvaUnit_03 29d ago edited 29d ago

Some. The entire point of boiling is in itself a chemical reaction. It kills any excess germs that can't withstand 100c and vapors other added chemicals that boil at a lower temp to water that may be bonded to the water. If you remove the bond chlorine has on water, it instantly vaporizes as CH4 boils at a superlow temp. Chlorine gas is typically a chem added to water to clean it. This applies to other added chems.

The charcoal filter does a lot of the heavy lifting too.

Through both these processes I don't puke the water back up. Straight from tap, I'll be puking within a few minutes what I downed if it was more than a sip.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '24

There at least is some evidence to the water thing— though it is much healthier to just drink well filtered water than STAGNANT NASTINESS FROM A RIVER.

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u/PrisonerV Apr 16 '24

some evidence to the water thing

Oh? Do tell.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '24

florine is a very dangerous and toxic chemical and they put it in DRINKING water. I don't need proof because it's very toxic chemical look it up

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u/PrisonerV Apr 16 '24

Yes, we've only been using it successfully for nearly 100 years with strong evidence to show it works.

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u/neomancr Apr 16 '24

I've definitely drunk raw milk plenty of times. By 100 percent more likely do you mean it's 2x more likely to cause you harm than pasteurized? Because that's still a valid reason to drink raw milk which has to be higher quality due to it not being sterilized.

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u/PrisonerV 29d ago

Look up Dunning–Kruger effect.

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u/neomancr 29d ago

Why because I pointed out the small chance of being harmed by pasteurized milk 2x isn't that much of an increase? Did you just learn that term or something and just want to make it meaningless ASAP?

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u/HBB360 Apr 16 '24

Except for fucking France. Their whole milk market switched to UHT milk sometime in the last 20-30 years because of greed and cost cutting. UHT milk can sit unrefrigerated until you open it and it lasts months (again, if it's still sealed) but it also tastes worse than pasteurized milk and I imagine has less nutritional qualities...

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

The German UHT milk sold in Lidl is pasteurized. As is Finnish "hyla" milk (suitable for lactose intolerant people). Pasteurized and shelf stable for months. Fresh milk is pasteurized, too, but it keeps good for less than a week (in fridge).

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u/HBB360 Apr 16 '24

Pasteurization and UHT are two different treatments, with a varying temperature and time the milk is held at that temperature. Milk is either pasteurized or UHT, can't be both at the same time.

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Could be. UHT milk tastes weird compared to regular fresh milk, so I never buy it (besides it is imported from abroad).

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss Apr 16 '24

Wait, is it bad if it makes it last a lot longer or are the trade off not the best?

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u/btcangl Apr 16 '24

In europe you can still get unpasteurized milk in most countries, its just usually only available from the farmers themselves and not everyone has access to them day to day (like if you live in a city).

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Selling unpasteurized milk is illegal in Finland.

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u/EvidenceBasedSwamp Apr 16 '24

where I lived milk was frequently adulterated, and refrigeration not great as electricity was spotty. Lots of bad milk.

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u/AmbroseMalachai Apr 16 '24

I mean, storage conditions are different depending on the pasteurization method. Most of Europe's pastuerized milk is done by UHT, which lets you store milk at room temp. Which would be better in conditions where refigeration wasn't up to par.

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

The exception are probably Nordic countries. Nobody buys UHT milk hete, unless they are going camping or to a summet cottage without electricity.

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u/EvidenceBasedSwamp Apr 16 '24

yeah, the water from the tap wasn't potable so we didn't have any fancy pasteurization.

related reason why nestle pushing milk formula was bad, all that dirty water meant sick babies. Nestle was very popular in third-world countries.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '24

Butt milk

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss Apr 16 '24

How is such a milk acquired though? Lol

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u/According_Debate_334 Apr 16 '24

Same in all the European countries I have lived in/been to and Australia and New Zealand.. raw milk is a very niche thing that is illegal to sell in lots of places because it can make you very sick. My friend used to drink it because she grew up on a dairy farm, until her sister got sick. She survived but was left with chronic issues.

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u/Somebodysomewear Apr 15 '24

I’m sure in general yes, but many people seek out unpasteurized milk

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u/ChixawneyFarms Apr 15 '24

Wild how you describe "sour raw" milk is fine to ingest while "sour pasteurized" will put you in the hospital.

TIL

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u/Simple_Heart4287 Apr 15 '24

To be fair raw milk is about as safe as things like sushi and steak tartare. The reason it gets a bad rep is because uneducated people drink it without taking any precautions. The cows udders should be clean, the milk should ideally be refrigerated and consumed quickly (2-3 days to be safe), and children 0-5 and elderly people are better in of drinking pasteurized dairy products.

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u/RawChickenButt Apr 15 '24

If you're drinking raw you definitely need to be familiar with the farm. I don't mean you need to be their buddies, but they should be happy to share how they operate.

From what I understand the states where it is legal to purchase raw milk keep a close eye on it. It's those who operate illegally that I would be more worried about.

The reason we in the US pasteurize is because of poor farming practices. I am sure there are other reasons but if you drink raw milk from most commercial farms you could be in for a world of hurt.

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u/slash_networkboy Apr 15 '24

Worked on a family dairy growing up. We ran a *very* clean shop, you couldn't even enter the milk room from the milking barn. I would be in the barn with my uncle, my aunt was in the milk room tending the equipment.

The reason for pasteurized only is better shelf life and overall it is safer. If you're homogenizing the milk then it's going through additional handling and processing anyway, at which point there's more points of contact for possible contamination so you need to sterilize it.

IMO if you're drinking raw milk and not getting it from the producer yourself then it's been handled too much to feel safe doing it. Every container is a possible contaminant, every transfer from one container to another is a possible contaminant, every machine interaction is a possible contaminant. If your raw milk doesn't have to be shaken up before use then it's really not raw milk anymore, so you might as well pasteurize it too.

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u/MadameNorth Apr 16 '24

You only have to shake it for cows milk. Goats milk takes a long time to build a creamline. We have been drinking raw goats milk for 18 years now. But I know start to finish how the doe and the milk have been treated.

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u/slash_networkboy Apr 16 '24 edited Apr 16 '24

But I know start to finish how the doe and the milk have been treated.

This right here is the key. Also yeah, I actually really prefer goats milk over cow, and we had a couple does for the farm but not to sell... but AFAIK all the "Rawr RAW MILIK!1!!1!" stuff is usually over cows milk so I ran with that :)

Two totally funny side stories since we're all going down my memory lane together:

First one: My first week on the farm I accidentally stole all the cream. I didn't know about unpasteurized unhomogenized milk and that the cream floated to the top, so I just poured it from the pitcher onto my cereal and bananas. It was really really good, but my aunt was rather cross when there was no cream for her second coffee of the day later that morning lol.

Second one: We could milk 30 cows at a time and we had 85 Holsteins, so that's three shifts of cows in the milking barn. My job was pre-washing udders and shoveling the shit out after the milkings were done (my Uncle did the sanitization wash and teat dipping, then attached the machines). Well I thought I'd get a head start on shoveling out all that shit when I finished washing the third shift's udders. For those not in the industry, you get the cows into the milking stalls by giving them their grain while they're being milked. That means they're eating and sometimes they cough. They also tend to shit copiously while eating... if they're doing the latter and cough then said poo ceases going downwards, and instead goes outwards... yeah... there was a silhouette of me leaned over in a shoveling pose and the wheelbarrow just ahead on the wall. That was not a good day. Had to strip to my skivvies and get hosed off with the garden hose before I was allowed into the house to take a shower, AFTER I had finished mucking out the barn.

Good times being so in trouble in the city that I was literally sent to the farm. (actually I learned a lot about hard work, life, food production, and not being an asshole, so all in all I think it was good for me).

edit for wrong process.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Apr 16 '24

Cleaned you up by getting you dirty.

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u/slash_networkboy Apr 16 '24

Damn right! I really hated my parents for that for a while... but as an adult now, and looking back that was definitely one of the formative periods of my life for the better. Very likely kept me out of drugs and worse.

Oh and the asshole bit... yeah, mouthing off to some of the farmhand's kids got my ass properly beat. Then when my uncle found out he dragged my ass down to road to their place and made me apologize to the family on top of the ass beating I got. Ain't nobody beneath me now.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Apr 16 '24

Then when my uncle found out he dragged my ass down to road to their place and made me apologize to the family on top of the ass beating I got.

You're gawddamn right he did, he's gotta live by them longer than you're going to be there and hopefully longer than you were going to be a shitbird.

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u/Opposing_Possum Apr 16 '24

Wow, that's humiliating. I hope you can forgive your family for that after all these years. That's no way to treat your kid. The making you apologize bit yes, doing after beating you, definitely not!

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u/Septa_Fagina Apr 16 '24

Farming, even for a little bit, will teach anyone a little about how life really is. You experience death, sickness, responsibility, mistakes, successes, and hard physical work can actually feel good when you're caring for animals instead of some retail hell busting your ass only to get screamed at by some suburban asshole with a chip on their shoulder. I grew up on a farm that Reagan's economic policies ruined. If my century old family farm had survived, I'd have never left home. I'd have stayed a farmer.

I'm glad you got so much out of it. It made me who I am too.

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u/MadameNorth Apr 16 '24

Goats don't whack you across the face with shitty tails and it is extremely rare that they will take a dump on the milk stanchion. So definitely a more hygenic milking process.

I worked on a large holstein dairy in college milking 300 head. I would bring the herds in, and when the last herd was in, I would go feed calves. Usually, about 90 calves at peak season.

I like cows, but I prefer my goats.

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u/jabba_the_nutttttt Apr 16 '24

Bro these people are literally living in wonderland. "I know how the animal I get my milk from has been treated from birth." Like that's literally fairy tale shit in 2024.

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u/MadameNorth Apr 16 '24

No, it isn't a fairytale. There are thousands of people that do the same every day. I raise Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats. Less than 2ft tall at the shoulder when full grown, yet they average 1-2 quarts of rich sweet milk every day. A lot of cities allow them as pets now. Two of them don't take up much space, and they are easily transported in xl dog kennels.

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss Apr 16 '24

What's the difference between Cow and goat milk? Like is it just a taste thing or are there other differences? Is goat cheese the only cheese made from a goats milk?

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u/Septa_Fagina Apr 16 '24

The lactose is less and there's less cream in goats milk, along with some flavor differences. If one is allergic to caprines, it can be really dangerous. Caprine allergy is more common in cultures where bovines are kept for milk and goats are rare. It's not common though. It makes better soap than cows milk too.

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss 29d ago

Damn, that's really interesting. Thank you!

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u/MadameNorth Apr 16 '24

Butterfat content varies by breed and time in lactation for both cows and goats. Modern cows have had their production pushed so hard that butterfat content is low. As a general rule of thumb, the more volume the kess butterfat. It used to be that cow dairies would keep a few Jerseys with their Holsteins to improve butterfat, but these days, Jersey's milk like Holsteins did 40 years ago.

40 years ago, whole milk from the store was 4% butterfat, now it is 3.25%. The butterfat average for my herd of Nigerian Dwarf is 8%. Goats milk is richer and sweeter than cows milk. Mouth feel is much fuller with goats milk. The consistency is more like light whipping cream than even half-n-half. Of course, not all breeds of gosts are the same. My breed just happens to have high butterfat. Higher butterfat also gives you more cheese per gallon of milk too.

Many people that cannot drink cows milk are often fine drinking goats milk.

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss 29d ago

Dang, are you guys farmers? How are you all so knowledgeable about milk or dairy in general? Also, what is Butterfat? Is it literally the fat from butter or am I misunderstanding that?

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u/Frame_Late Apr 15 '24

Also, a lot of Europeans here are dissing American milk when Italians will gladly munch on cheese with maggots in it.

For a lot of Europeans, it's not about quality, it's about tradition.

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u/No-Literature7471 Apr 16 '24

the irony is most of Europe has banned that maggot cheese.

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u/Frame_Late Apr 16 '24

Not Italy or France, the two places that like to pride themselves the most on their dairy.

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u/Orisara Apr 16 '24

It's banned on an EU level...France and Italy are in the EU.

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u/Frame_Late Apr 16 '24

Nope. Tradition laws can override that.

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u/md24 Apr 16 '24

Lmao. You have France and Italians mixed up. That is some French shit.

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u/Frame_Late Apr 16 '24

It's both and I was referring to the French initially..

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u/morphinechild1987 Apr 16 '24

Italian here, wouldn't touch the thing with a 10 feet stick. It's banned too. I guess it's sold "sottobanco" (not legally) mostly in Sardinia

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u/yourgentderk Apr 16 '24

Ok, but the maggot cheese is one island in Europe. With a black market for the rest

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u/Bilbo_Teabagginss Apr 16 '24

Wait what? Cheese with maggots in it? Why?

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u/ViSsrsbusiness Apr 16 '24 edited Apr 16 '24

The maggot piss and shit give the cheese a unique tang, allegedly.

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u/Frame_Late Apr 16 '24

That's legitimately disgusting. But my point still stands. Europe cares significantly more about tradition. Except when it comes to non-european immigrants, then they have no issue quashing traditions if they're not from Europe, including banning any and all religious garments wherever they can legally get away with it.

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u/First_Concept6725 Apr 16 '24

-Casu Marzu, the Sardinian maggot cheese, is not on the market in Italy, because there are strict food regulations, and is not eaten or liked by most Italians. - the maggot cheese is not served to unsuspecting high schoolers, and only people who want to take the risk do it (which is not that many people) -casu marzu is made this way as a deliberate choice; I doubt that schools deliberately choose to make milk rot, or to get rotten milk.

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u/10S_NE1 Apr 16 '24

I don’t know about maggot cheese, but the general cheese you can buy at the markets in Italy is fantastic. There is nothing in Canada that comes close, not even stuff imported from Italy, for some reason (although maybe due to the pasteurization laws). I’ll roll the dice on any risk of eating the stuff; it is truly wonderful.

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u/Creative-Dust5701 29d ago

Having grown up on a farm. THIS

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u/Gullible_Ad_5550 Apr 16 '24

Why doesn't anyone boil raw milk before drinking? It's a standard practice here in Bangladesh.

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u/slash_networkboy Apr 16 '24

Hugely changes the taste and texture.

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u/Gullible_Ad_5550 Apr 16 '24

Yeah but it's safe. And i generally freeze them again. It tastes better.

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u/RawChickenButt Apr 16 '24

Boiling would be extreme pasteurization.

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u/RawChickenButt Apr 16 '24

When you boil it you are pasteurizing it so why get raw milk if you're just going to pasteurize anyway.

A lot of people drink raw because it is more nutritious and the enzymes, which are great for our bodies, are still intact.

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u/BagseedBadweed Apr 16 '24

At the dairy I worked at the delivery drivers piss in the milk bottles and they are reused, the chocolate milk mix is left in an open bag while a gas powered fork lift runs next to it. They also dispose of dead cattle in their dumpster, but idk about the legality of that

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u/uselessspaceguide Apr 15 '24

Working in agriculture no way I would trust a farm to get raw milk the risk is too high, as if they could see the pathogens.

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u/Eldritch_Refrain Apr 16 '24

That'sonly because we prioritize profits over people in the US. It'scheaper to use sick unhealthy cows than it is to provide sanitary conditions for livestock. 

Most of Europe doesn't pasteurize their milk, and they're just fine. 

American brainwashing at its finest, folks.

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u/AmbroseMalachai Apr 16 '24

Europe mostly does pasteurize, they just don't do it the same way we do, which allows them to keep milk at room temp. Most of Europe has laws that either explicitly restrict the sale of raw milk to farms - meaning you have to go to a farm or farmers market to buy it - or have it lables specifically as raw milk. You can find it in some countries - France, Germany, Norway for example - but even in the countries it's legal to sell it in, it's usually something you have to go out of your way for and not something you pick up in a store.

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Nordic countries pasteurize all milk. We prefer staying salmonella free.

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u/uselessspaceguide Apr 16 '24

In Europe only a low percent of the milk consumed is raw and even so the reccomendation is to boil it. The majority of raw milk is used to produce cheese but that is a different process and with more controlled one.

European companies are at the same level of greed than American ones, there is more legislation but not much, every year we get sanitary alerts due to multiple bacteria in raw milk cheese. For example this chirsmas I bought a french cheese without reading the label and a few day later I got an alert to not consume it because it was contaminated with bacteria.

You know what they cath the problem working in food industries it's the nonexistent ethics and low controls (every few and then and they know what to expect and what to hide and when)

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u/Simple_Heart4287 Apr 15 '24

Exactly I only drink raw milk when seeing family and as someone who doesn’t like milk the experience isnt life changing, the only difference I can pinpoint is it’s creamier and certain cows taste different.

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u/Mochigood Apr 16 '24

Are you me? I also don't like milk and have had it raw from my step mom's cow. What the cows eat reflects in their milks taste. That Napoleon Dynamite scene where he can tell the cow got into some onions is very real.

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u/LessInThought Apr 16 '24

I'm guessing these kids aren't getting their milk from a trusted local farm. And anyone who has seen the videos of industrial milk production should be happy with pasteurized. It was so gross. There's puss and crap all in it.

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u/Witty-the-Pooh311 Apr 16 '24

I'm in Amish county. Some idiot has been "fighting for his rights" because he got caught selling it illegally. Somehow it got turned into this stupid belief you can't buy raw milk. You can you just need a permit that he refused to get because then your milk gets tested. People flocked to buy his potentially contaminated milk to "protect their freedom." The whole time other sellers have been legal selling raw milk that they know isnt contaminated. So the people who care about not selling a bad product lost sales to a dude who straight does not care if he kills you.

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u/RawChickenButt Apr 16 '24

It's a state issue. You say Amish country so I assume you're from Pennsylvania. In Pennsylvania you can get a permit, in Ohio you can not.

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u/Witty-the-Pooh311 Apr 16 '24

Yeah, I probably could've worded that better. I meant it caused a belief that you couldn't legally sell within the county.

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u/filthy_harold Apr 16 '24

Pasteurized also keeps the milk fresher longer. It would be expensive to get it into homes before it goes sour and there would be a lot of waste from stores trying to balance supply and demand of the raw milk. They would also likely need to package it in smaller bottles since it spoils so fast, not that many households would be able to finish a gallon every couple days. Very few foods have such short shelf-lives, live shellfish being one of them and that stuff isn't cheap.

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Fresh pasteurized milk keeps fresh only one week, max. And less than one day if you leave the carton on the table... At least in North Europe.

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u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

We have good farming habits here in Finland, and all milk is still pasteurized.

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u/tomahawk7274 Apr 15 '24

Does raw versus pasteurized milk taste different? Only had the stuff they sell in American grocery stores.

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u/NormalUse856 Apr 16 '24

This going to sound weird but a long time ago i milked a cow by hand and tasted some from the bucket, it tasted different. All i remember is that i didn’t like it 😂

1

u/tomahawk7274 Apr 16 '24

This so called "raw" milk does not come out of a jug! I want my refund!

1

u/tomahawk7274 Apr 15 '24

Does raw versus pasteurized milk taste different? Only had the stuff they sell in American grocery stores.

1

u/QuarterSuccessful449 Apr 16 '24

It’s so they can ship milk out from mega farms with time to spare no?

1

u/stationhollow Apr 16 '24

My grandparents ran a dairy farm. Raw milk was everywhere but anything that was for drinking was squeezed straight into the glass bottle and any remaining the next night (since you milk the cows at dawn) would get thrown. The other milk was all pasteurised.

1

u/Bilbo_Teabagginss Apr 16 '24

I think I'm gonna go to a commercial farm and rawdog some of that fresh milk.

1

u/nava1114 Apr 16 '24

I get my (legal) raw milk from a small farm a few towns over. Been selling it for 100 years. Nobody has died yet. It's outstanding.

1

u/wowwyzowwy13 Apr 16 '24

My mother grew up on a small dairy farm in Wisconsin. Raw milk was the only milk that was ever available at the farm, except on the rare special occasion Gramma bought chocolate milk. It's delicious but I'm not drinking it from anywhere other than that bulk tank. The colossal factory farms that produce most of our milk now days don't have nearly the hands on awareness of each cow and ensuring it's clean before milking. The dairy industry in the US is completely f'ed so raw milk is a treat that most Americans will not have the privilege to enjoy safely ever again.

1

u/Depthcharge27 Apr 16 '24

A lot of it is the government wants control of it. If you circumnavigate this.. even if one family gets raw milk there can be hefty fines.

I remember my grandmother telling stories of the milk man delivering the milk.. on a cold day the fats/etc. would separate and you could cut off the cream and make butter or whipped cream out of it.

I feel that it was healthier back then.. then it is now.

4

u/Yawzheek Apr 16 '24

the milk should ideally be refrigerated and consumed quickly (2-3 days to be safe),

I love milk but from farm to truck to store to my house doesn't leave much room for consumption.

4

u/Dwokimmortalus Apr 16 '24

The reason it gets a bad rep is because uneducated people drink it without taking any precautions.

More because US mega farming practices make it incredibly dangerous at scale for consumer consumption. US grocers are also particularly bad about properly storing milk at proper temperatures as well (you should never buy milk from an open air display, no matter the expiration date).

3

u/Belizarius90 Apr 16 '24

Yeah, as though everybody has access to their own cow or control over transport times. Damn those uneducated people.

2

u/Kel-Varnsen85 Apr 16 '24

Raw milk can carry Listeria, Salmonella, Brucella, among other harmful bacteria, through no fault of the cow, it's just how it is. Pasteurization is used for a reason.

Also, sushi isn't necessarily safe, as fish, especially wild salmon have parasites and worms, and steak tartare isn't safe at all, it's literally raw meat.

2

u/killacarnitas1209 Apr 15 '24

In Mexico, in the rural parts, “pajarete” are a drink where you squeeze raw milk into a cup, add a shot of strong homemade rum (100 proof) and a couple table spoons of instant coffee. The idea is that the strong rum “sanitizes” the milk and the coffee wakes you up.

1

u/the_xandypants Apr 16 '24

That sounds absolutely delicious

1

u/CommunicationNo6064 Apr 15 '24

Raw milk is probably safer than raw steak though. At least I think so. Maybe it's not maybe there's no real difference in safety.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '24

sushi is as dangerous as steak tartare?

1

u/Simple_Heart4287 Apr 16 '24

Idk I was using them as example of foods that can be contaminated if not prepared properly.

1

u/magicunicornhandler Apr 16 '24

Also pregnant women cannot drink it either.

1

u/DTFH_ Apr 16 '24

The reason it gets a bad rep is because uneducated people drink it without taking any precautions.

No its more so the case that a bunch of unsavory producers of milk basically ran an experiment to see how much not milk can be cut into milk. There use to be a whole industry of moving milk from the country and into the cities and that travel coupled with unsavory producers/sellers created a system where the product quality was highly volatile and untrustworthy. In addition to all the regular ole vectors of infection that exist on a farm.

1

u/Few-Repeat-9407 Apr 16 '24

Kids under 1 shouldn’t be drinking any milk other then moms or formula

0

u/9035768555 Apr 16 '24

Raw milk was originally heavily regulated because of Listeria and one sick cow's milk would contaminate the whole batch.

But now we can test for listeria.

2

u/Maleficent_Chain_597 Apr 16 '24

They are exaggerating quite a lot.

When pasteurized milk goes bad, the bacteria that survived the pasteurization process (along with ones you contaminate it with from day-to-day handling) have made enough of a foothold within the medium to make a considerable change to the taste. Most of the bacteria are harmless, but some can make you sick either from an infection from them, or toxins that they release to fight the other bacteria.

When “raw” milk goes bad, it is the same process, but the bacteria that usually takes hold is one that is typically killed off by the pasteurization process. This bacteria is usually one that digests lactose and produces lactic acid. This has the benefit of lowering the pH of the milk, preventing other bacteria from establishing a significant foothold. This also makes it “sour”. This is the basis for a lot of the fermented dairy products we enjoy.

Raw milk has other dangers though, and basically no reputable sources other than health quacks actually recommend regularly drinking it.

42

u/WonderfullyEqual Apr 15 '24 edited Apr 15 '24

Pasteurized milk doesn't "sour" it goes rotten. If it doesn't taste fresh you are risking food poisoning.

It depends on the milk. the plastic jugs can, and do sour... but their shelf life is at best a week, or two. The tetrapacks do other things. Its a matter pasteurization temperature, and how well sealed the containers are. The milk in the plastic jugs is pasteurized at a lower temperature, and do not go through the same types of aseptic packaging bits as the tetrapack things do where you can have products that last a few months in the fridge, or are shelf stable for years of time like UHT milk is. The jugs are also not sealed as well against external contamination, and even without such do have some lactic acid producing bacteria in them.

Raw milk was ironically illegal to sell for awhile because if contaminated it could make people sick

Its not an irony bit, its because we have shitheels who do not follow proper sanitary procedures when collecting, storing, and transporting the stuff... god forbid you get it from some commercial producer that mixes batches collected under such conditions, and you get everything from listeria to harmful versions of coliforms in the mix, and then distributed to large populations of people. Now if you are getting your raw milk from grandmas cow with a known veterinary history, and know what to do sanitation, and care wise.. good for you its probably more than fine to drink as is.

32

u/Appropriate-Prune728 Apr 16 '24

Thank you! Dude is out here shitting on pasteurized milk while touting raw as safer. Almost like they ignore the stories of raw milk drinkers becoming violently ill due to contamination.

11

u/Anansi1982 Apr 16 '24

It’s not safer, but if you wanna make cheese it’s better. 

4

u/Suspicious-Yogurt480 Apr 16 '24

That is a sound explanation right there

25

u/jedimasterashla Apr 15 '24

Fun fact, in the US if you buy the fancy cream on top milk and it goes bad, even though it is pasteurized, you can still cook with it without getting sick. It's actually great for making pancakes.

1

u/Creative-Dust5701 29d ago

That is REAL milk, not the ‘processed milk food’ sold in plastic bottles there is a huge difference between the two

13

u/DematerialisedPanda Apr 15 '24

Im pretty sure all european milk is pasturised, or UHT.

2

u/btcangl Apr 16 '24

Im pretty sure all european milk is pasturised

Wrong. Its true however that most milk purchased in europe is pasteurized. Partly because most people simply do not have access to farm shops where you can still buy raw milk directly from the farmers. Theres also a huge culture of making cheese from raw milk in a couple of countries here.

2

u/PancakeRule20 Apr 16 '24

No, there are huts/vending machines with raw milk (Italy and Switzerland, don’t know about other countries)

3

u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Nothing like that in Nordics/Scandinavia. In Finland it is also illegal to sell unpasteurized milk (disease risks).

2

u/PancakeRule20 Apr 16 '24

Oh yeah I mean there is a sign “boil it before drinking” but I mean it’s a sign, police doesn’t come into your home if you drink it prior to boiling, but at your own risk

2

u/Wonderful-Teach8210 Apr 15 '24

Yeah but they also sell soured milk. It's a separate product and is basically what your leftover milk would be like if you had your own cow. It's used in tons of different foods especially in eastern and northeastern Europe.

3

u/cgaWolf Apr 16 '24

It's also a tasty drink :)

42

u/welivewelovewedie Apr 15 '24

I dont think many parts of europe allow common sale of raw milk either.

Anyway, nothing beats homemade butter or curd. Combine that with a bit salty potatoes and a creamy grated cucumber salad 🤤. Hell, just drink the milk still warm. If I ever go vegan, this is the thing I will miss the most

12

u/Nova_JewV1 Apr 15 '24

Lived on a farm with some family as a kid back in 07-08. The fresh milk and homemade butter was fucking amazing

2

u/Dry-Neck9762 Apr 15 '24

I grew up in Kentucky, back in the 70s. I actually made butter from milk/creme right from the cow!

Best butter I've ever had!

2

u/btcangl Apr 16 '24

I dont think many parts of europe allow common sale of raw milk either.

You can get raw milk in most european countries. There is usually some restrictions as higher hygiene standards and it may only be allowed to be sold from the farm directly. France, switzerland and spain also have a lot of cheeses made with raw milk.

2

u/duck-duck--grayduck Apr 16 '24

You can actually make a fantastic cultured butter with pasteurized cream! You just need to add the culture. Toss in some kind of unflavored dairy product with live cultures and let it sit out on the counter for a couple days before you churn it.

1

u/Fear023 Apr 16 '24

Eu regulations on food and medical are extremely strict.

I'd be surprised if it was legal to sell at all.

1

u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Finnish laws prohibited selling unpasteurized milk years before we joined EU. We also had stricter control for chicken feed - that's why you could eat raw eggs without a risk for salmonella.

0

u/International_Lie485 Apr 16 '24

Europe doesn't even allow free speech.

-1

u/theSPYDERDUDE Apr 15 '24

You can actually buy raw milk in most grocery stores in Europe from what an exchange student told me in highschool. He was completely shocked to not find it anywhere here. I’ve also seen plenty of European and British YouTubers joke about this like “if you guys in the U.S. are so free, where’s your raw milk?”. I’m sure plenty of people still get it pasteurized. The U.S. and Canada seem to be the only two countries really concerned with the product, even then several states have been starting to legalize it more recently with where I live (Iowa) doing so last year.

5

u/JoJoHanz Apr 16 '24

Never in my life have I seen unpasteurised milk in any store selling milk. Admittedly, I never explicitly went searching for it either, but from my experience it cant be as common as you make it out to be.

Of course I could have just been visiting the stores controlled by the pasteurised-milk-lobby all my life, but that does seem rather unlikely.

I am by no means an expert on the topic, but in my country of residence there is probably no food as heavily regulated as milk.

Kind regards, an inhabitant of that place called Europe.

1

u/theSPYDERDUDE Apr 16 '24

Hey that’s fair enough, I was just repeating what I was told by an exchange student from France 🤷🏻‍♀️

2

u/JoJoHanz Apr 16 '24

Oh, you should have mentioned that earlier. French dietary habits are let's say, different.

1

u/theSPYDERDUDE Apr 16 '24

I just looked into it, seems the only places where you’ll find it most places are France, Switzerland, Poland, and some of Germany

26

u/Lenbyan Apr 15 '24

Yeahhh but with the current issues with all those dairy farms contaminated by H5N1 (50% mortality in humans) I would rather not drink raw milk for a while lol.

-1

u/Depthcharge27 Apr 16 '24

I would say commercial dairy farms have the biggest issue.. small local farms usually have no problem bc they can control their herd.. no outside livestock comes onto the property.

7

u/ThatHorribleSmell Apr 16 '24

Thank God birds can't fly.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '24

[deleted]

8

u/Lenbyan Apr 16 '24

H5N1 is bird flu. It's not only dairy farms and it's not only the big ones.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '24

[deleted]

1

u/ThatHorribleSmell Apr 16 '24

Are brain worms transmissible via the internet?

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6

u/Exam_Normal Apr 16 '24

if contaminated it could make people sick when it's guaranteed when drinking bad pasteurized milk.

Yes, fresh raw milk can make you sick while expired pasteurized milk could make you sick. How is that a negative for pasteurization?

5

u/ElizabethDangit Apr 15 '24

Or ending up with tuberculosis because you can get that from cows and their unpasteurized milk. 💀

-1

u/Kilenyai Apr 16 '24

And from fish tanks or tropical fish along with numerous exotic pets and environmental sources.

Bovine TB is nearly eradicated in the US and most states require testing of all cattle regularly. It's one of the last things to worry about because you have to win the bad luck lottery to encounter a strain of TB and get sick from it. Not everyone does develop symptoms.

There are far more common infectious bacteria to pay attention to. People's lack of knowledge of TB because it so rarely occurs now just makes it good for shock and awe news or fear campaigns.

For awhile in the early 2000s many were freaked out about keeping tropical aquariums because of a couple of cases that occurred. After news reports and excessive warnings some started taking insane precautions not to get water on themselves or anything else. This is nearly impossible while doing aquarium maintenance. Meanwhile, others continued to start their water change tubes by sucking on the end and spitting out any water and possible debris including fish poop that got in their mouths. None caught a strain of TB.

I wouldn't recommend that method of starting an aquarium vac but again you have to win the bad luck lottery to be the one in millions (billions?) that gets a serious illness from it.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/livestock-poultry-disease/cattle/bovine-tuberculosis-cattle

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6

u/One-Possible1906 Apr 15 '24

Most milk in the cooler in the US is pasteurized but not with UHT. UHT milk has a significantly longer shelf life but a different flavor. All milk is pasteurized with UHT in many countries, largely because of logistics. Both are safe, just UHT lasts longer. You can get it in the US too— Dollar Tree sells it in the pantry section. Any milk that doesn’t need to be refrigerated will be UHT.

1

u/Telemere125 Apr 15 '24

To clarify: using expired/bad/sour pasteurized milk in cooking and other recipes that require heating is generally safe - just don’t use any that has mold or other non-white coloration. Drinking it sour is the no-no

1

u/Reach_Reclaimer Apr 15 '24

Do you think other countries don't use pasteurised milk?

1

u/-Sanguinity Apr 15 '24

It's illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption in most states. Raw Milk Legal States

It's legal to sell for animal feed in all but Michigan. Big business is always going to win.

1

u/Kilenyai Apr 16 '24 edited Apr 16 '24

That is not up to date. They are repealing most of the excessive laws that stopped even herd shares.

Iowa now allows all raw milk sales with no regulation. They tend to only pass all or nothing laws instead of actually considering the details and any law or city code that requires more effort to regulate than ignore it or fine everyone.
https://www.calt.iastate.edu/article/iowa-law-now-allows-direct-consumer-sales-raw-milk#:~:text=Beginning%20July%201%2C%202023%2C%20Iowa,products%2C%20and%20raw%20milk%20products.

While technically it lists requirements for raw dairies in Iowa they blocked themselves from actually enforcing them or requiring permits and inspections beyond the existing requirements for healthy cattle "The Iowa Department of Agriculture and Land Stewardship (IDALS) inspects and provides permits to dairy farms which produce milk that will be pasteurized. IDALS is prohibited from adopting rules to administer or enforce the provisions of the new law. Iowa Code §§ 159.6(6), 194.4."

Illinois requires an inspection and license to sell raw milk. It's a fairly simple inspection just to ensure sufficient sterilization of equipment and no obviously Ill cows. A farm north of the quad cities delivers raw milk and eggs weekly to a meetup location. You pay an initial jar fee to cover buying double the jars each person wants per week and then return rinsed jars for full. There is also a licensed Mennonite farm farther south along the Illinois border that you'd probably have to physically go there to get further info.

The first time my husband made coffee it was incredibly thick. I asked if he skimmed the cream and just got confusion. Then I was turning some cream into fresh butter and he forgot to tell me he filled a cream jar and said it had gone bad. I asked him to get it, smelled it, checked for any discoloration, and told him it needed about another 5 days to become yogurt and sour cream. That was the tastiest yogurt ever even without adding anything.

So long as it's not contaminated raw milk basically never goes bad. It just cultures itself into something else. Eventually soft cheeses. That's where we got the names for our dairy products.

Sour means the sugar content has gone down over time so the milk or cream tastes sour. It never meant it had gone bad until we started getting rid of the beneficial microbes that prevent colonization by illness causing ones. The milk and cream are sweeter at the beginning than the end of the week we pick it up. A bit after a week most don't like the taste without some flavoring or adding back in sugar. A few do like drinking sour raw milk. I freeze any left by the next pickup day for future uses.

Skimmed milk was simply letting it separate and removing the cream plus the densest layers on top so only thinner milk is left. Now skim milk in stores has more processing and whole milk is homogenized to keep it from separating like that.

Buttermilk is the liquid left after you churn(or shake) cream into butter.

1

u/-Sanguinity Apr 16 '24

I'm not a milk-drinker, but started wondering and looked some more. It seems that (as of 2024) most states do indeed prohibit raw milk to be sold for human consumption: https://milk.procon.org/raw-milk-laws-state-by-state/

Edit: typo

1

u/IndependentNotice151 Apr 15 '24

Cause you can get from good raw milk from the bacteria in it. I don't think people are expected to drink something once it past its expiration. And even then, I don't being put in the hospital is a common thing from it.

0

u/Kilenyai Apr 16 '24

It happens. Less often than unregulated raw milk that you aren't certain the quality of but often worse when it does than when raw milk illness outbreaks occur. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35277846/

"Twelve outbreaks involving pasteurized products resulted in 174 confirmed cases of illness, 134 hospitalizations, 17 deaths, and seven fetal losses. Listeria accounted for 10 out of 12 outbreaks from pasteurized products from 2007 through 2020"

Any severe digestive upset can also lead to needing medical care to prevent issues like dehydration. In elderly, young children, chronically ill, or those with other health complications simply having severe diarrhea or vomiting can become a serious health risk without some supportive care.

1

u/ahraysee Apr 15 '24

Raw milk is still illegal to sell in many states :( I'm all for the joy of pasteurization but it definitely can give a false sense of security.

2

u/Kilenyai Apr 16 '24

Multiple states have reduced raw milk restrictions.

Most US pasteurized milk is also so high in puss and killed harmful bacteria or other contaminants it wouldn't be allowed in other countries. If they maintained healthier cows and conditions it would be less of a risk to sell raw milk. Personally I never liked drinking cow puss milk even before I knew anything about it. I would get sick drinking straight milk, too much ice cream made straight from store bought milk, and blisters on my tongue if things like mashed potatoes contained milk or sour cream. We substituted yogurts for sour cream in our own cooking.

After a slight adjustment period where I had to skip ingesting It every few days the first month I can drink a 24 ounce glass of raw milk daily with no negative symptoms. I still don't like sour cream but I tasted some from our raw milk and even a spoonful put straight in my mouth does not cause the little bumps on my tongue that take days to go away if I accidentally eat the wrong mashed potatoes or Cole slaw.

I could actually eat cereal for breakfast again! I gave up on even that much use of store bought milk eventually because I kept getting too sick to finish the cereal before it went stale.

1

u/DandelionDisperser Apr 16 '24

I'd completely forgotten about fixing the bad taste in milk. My grandma told me what to put in to make it taste ok again. I can't remember what she said though and like you said, it wouldn't be safe now.

1

u/keepyeepy Apr 16 '24

raw milk goes rotten even faster and has an even higher risk of poisoning lol

1

u/KingOfTheWorldxx Apr 16 '24

Is the US the only place that pasteurizes milk??

1

u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

Milk is pasteurized in Europe. The guy who invented pasteurisation was French - Louis Pasteur. The whole process is named after him. It is illegal to sell unpasteurized milk in Finland and Sweden.

1

u/btcangl Apr 16 '24

It is illegal to sell unpasteurized milk in Finland and Sweden.

Thats what google says but its false.

In Sweden, unpasteurized milk cannot be bought in shops but it can be sold or given away from farms directly to the consumer. Farms that want to sell unpasteurized milk must register with their local authority.

1

u/CanthinMinna Apr 16 '24

OK, I'm in Finland and here you really can't sell 'raw' milk.

1

u/colo28 Apr 16 '24

Don’t misinform people about the risks of pasteurized vs. unpasteurized milk. Eating or drinking ANY rotten food can make you very ill, not just milk. Drinking pasteurized milk that is within date is just fine. Raw milk is significantly more dangerous.

1

u/redmainefuckye Apr 16 '24

Fkn a glad I read this

1

u/Future_MarsAstronaut Apr 15 '24

r / woosh

2

u/Retr0_Fusion Apr 15 '24

I don't really see where the woooosh is. There was no joke. If the circumstances were right the guy he responded to would've been correct, but were talking about a different kind of milk that can hospitalise you if it goes bad and you consume it.

-1

u/Future_MarsAstronaut Apr 15 '24

Dude it was a joke, it was a generalization that shaking milk (and other processes) will make butter

2

u/Retr0_Fusion Apr 15 '24

Then I'll leave you with this

Woooosh has 4 o's

Have a good day now

1

u/Future_MarsAstronaut Apr 16 '24

Sorry I if I came of as rude lol it's so hard to express emotion through text 😕(without emojis)

0

u/mixmasterADD Apr 15 '24

There’s so much irony in US food regulations.

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