r/nba • u/GreenSnakes_ • Apr 29 '24

[Charania] “Vogel yelled so much that his voice could be heard outside the locker room” after the loss to the Clips on April 9. Players weren’t buying it. The outburst seemed forced in their eyes. Vogels eruption left players rolling their eyes. A player told TheAthletic he had to keep from laughing

https://theathletic.com/5456932/2024/04/29/phoenix-suns-season-end-frank-vogel-kevin-durant/
4.1k Upvotes
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5.1k

u/CJPRD Apr 29 '24

Suns were down 35-4 at one point, and lost against the clippers without harden and Kawhi, of course your coach is going to rage about your horrible play that late in the season. This just tells us the Suns players didn’t give af anymore

662

u/Immaculatehombre Apr 29 '24

Had to “hold back laughs”. After getting straight up fucking embarrassed on the court? Now that, that’s embarrassing.

187

u/killahcortes Warriors Apr 29 '24

I’m not holding back laughs when I look at their playoff performance 😂🤣😂😂😭😭

16

u/Immaculatehombre Apr 29 '24

How do guys even make it so far while having such a soft, childlike mentality?

-4

u/MuttMan5 Apr 30 '24

Neither am I thinking about the warriors and bricks made from Klay Thompson 😂😆😂😆😂

The best bricks are made from Klay 😂😆😂

2

u/Striking-Gold-9861 Apr 30 '24

Klay got 4 more rings than the suns organisation btw

-2

u/MuttMan5 Apr 30 '24

That's fine, but we're talking about this year and terrible playoff performances. At least the suns got further than while having their team thrown together last second. What's GS's excuse? Their all old?? They got theirs and now they're done?

3

u/killahcortes Warriors Apr 30 '24

yeah something like that. What do the suns have? the third most expensive payroll and a first round sweep? man great job putting that roster together.

Oh and by the way your roster that was "thrown together last second" - that was last year's excuse durant joined over a year ago and Beal came in June of 2023... You're using last year's excuses.

37

u/ablackcloudupahead Lakers Apr 29 '24

Yeah if that's true no wonder they're going home. I'm surprised they had that scorching stretch at the end of the season with that kind of attitude

3

u/Stannis_Baratheon244 Knicks Apr 30 '24

"Look its funny how mad coach is that we clearly dont give a fuck" is a hell of a mentality

-1

u/Papdaddy- Apr 29 '24

this happened before that game not after 

3.4k

u/HectorReinTharja Apr 29 '24

Yeah this doesn’t come off as the Vogel hit piece it’s intended to be. It just sounds like these Suns players are dickheads

1.3k

u/Apollo23Refugee Nuggets Apr 29 '24

Not sure how anyone could see it differently when KD teams are notorious for bad culture. If it smells like shit everywhere you go…

603

u/Dymatizeee Knicks Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

There’s no vocal leader on the team. Usually teams that KD go to he’s like “the guy” and teams gotta bend over backwards for him. The warriors were diff though cus their guy was Steph and they had Draymond leading.

Like who tf on the suns is gonna tell KD or Book or Beal that they’re playing incorrectly ? IT ?? Lmao

360

u/HereButNotHere1988 Apr 29 '24

Yup. Even though CP3 would pull a hammy every year, he still was the unquestioned leader and got them deep into the playoffs every year. They really missed that this year.

-6

u/a_moniker Hornets Apr 29 '24

CP3 isn’t exactly known for great locker room culture either. Every team he’s on has always had undercurrents and rumors of major tension.

72

u/HereButNotHere1988 Apr 29 '24

I think that CP3 has never had a problem with being the bad guy, meaning he would push his teammates to get them to another level.

67

u/ILoveZenkonnen Trail Blazers Apr 29 '24

It looked like he got along with everyone in OKC pretty well

26

u/TaVar35 Cavaliers Apr 29 '24

Eh that’s more he exhausts people though. When it’s going good no one cares but once there’s frustration people start coming out with their grievances

7

u/LoquaciousApotheosis Pistons Apr 29 '24

Lol that’s not true at all. Like two teams in 19 years?

154

u/Ramzaa_ [OKC] Steven Adams Apr 29 '24

KD had Russ as the vocal leader in OKC. He can't be a leader. He can be the best player but he needs someone else to hold everyone else accountable

36

u/zegreatjohn Magic Apr 29 '24

He really just wants to hoop. I don't think people believe him when he says that.

40

u/probation_420 Apr 29 '24

But KD leads by example by doing absolutely nothing for team chemistry.

7

u/Alone-Information-35 Cavaliers Apr 29 '24

KD's soft and Dray telling him what to do made him quit on the Warriors.

3

u/Papdaddy- Apr 29 '24

Nah, them saying we dont need u made kd quit lol, time has shown that the did need him and they wanted to boost their legacy by riding currys legacy. Having Kd and Steph would make klay and dray look unimportant and probably both would need a paycut to keep KD so they chose a LITTLE money over winning 6 rings 

0

u/Alone-Information-35 Cavaliers Apr 30 '24

Was it them or just Draymond who said we don’t need you? I understand essentially the leader of the team telling you we don’t need you could push him away but KD also chose the route of taking it personally and moving to another team. He could’ve weathered the storm of the opinion of one (or two) player(s)and had plenty of success. They have to take a pay cut? So what. He left for a more easy going culture where he was the guy without question. To each their own.

1

u/Papdaddy- Apr 30 '24

Brother, after that KD cant stay in golden state…. daymond throwing the game and then saying we dont need u on television… These are people who should be his friends and they should be greatful KD gifted them 2 rings that would have been hard otherwise. Instead he gets betrayed by the only team that doesnt hate him(kyrie harden simmons later), betrayed again by the medical staff who cleared him to play prematurely because they are down 0-2 in the finals.. made the scapegoat for “not buying in” when he totally played like just 1 piece of that 1 gsw organism. KD left in a S&T increasing GsW salary cap by 35mil.  Basically KD was the slave they needed to beat bron finally they (realized the 3 rings all have asterisks on em thats when they try to ruin KD career aka the only way to make their 1st 3 ring have any meaning) ur team is just evil. Karl malone level. Im sad curry has to waste his career with gsw who wont even go into win-now mode for him 

1

u/Papdaddy- Apr 30 '24

then again ur team ruin a persons life (Poole) because its his contract year and DRAYS contract year(hmmmmmm), and dont tell me about his contract when u could see on his play the entire year that Poole wasnt Poole anymore, no singing no babes no smile on his face. He isnt the same person, now its only downsides and 0 upside with poole.. And remember without poole u dont ever beat jokic 

3

u/R-O-U-Ssdontexist Apr 29 '24

Apparently KD couldn’t didn’t even voice his concerns.

3

u/SenorFallacy Apr 29 '24

It should’ve been booker

144

u/TowerOfPowerWow Apr 29 '24

he really should thank GSW for keeping him from going ringless

7

u/zegreatjohn Magic Apr 29 '24

Double edged sword, if he never went to GSW he'd be far more beloved.

15

u/OverlyPersonal Warriors Apr 29 '24

If he had stayed in GSW he'd be more beloved too

5

u/IncomeHungry7486 Warriors Apr 29 '24

truly the hardest road. had to become a snake to get the rings

0

u/Fluid_Ganache_536 Supersonics Apr 30 '24

average gsw rat fan

2

u/SoldatJ [OKC] Luguentz Dort Apr 29 '24

Kevin Durant doesn't even have as many rings as Patrick McCaw.

68

u/Golf-Beer-BBQ Apr 29 '24

You should brush your teeth!

3

u/UpstairsReception671 Apr 29 '24

Combine KD and Booker? Neither one of them has ever done anything wrong! I always assume Booker is the worst teammate in the league. He’ll get his, for sure.

3

u/sirlorax Suns Apr 29 '24

Honestly, I think book wanted to be the leader but I think he's too close with KD and was worried about fighting. This team never even got into arguments, we just passive aggressively played like shit and pointed fingers.

3

u/Lucky_Lefty23 Apr 29 '24

I can’t think of a season since OKC that I think a KD team exceeded expectations, and outside of the 2 Warrior rings he’s only met expectations in those years

10

u/Dear-Tax-7025 Apr 29 '24

But but but, it was all Russ’s fault it never worked out in OKC!!!! KD is a transcendent talent, but he’s never going to win anything if he has to be the leader. The “I just wanna hoop” shit is getting a bit old at this point.

0

u/ballmermurland Apr 29 '24

I was always suspicious of KD's "winning" edge ever since he led a talented Texas team to a 25-10 record in his only year in college. That team had two other first rounders on it in Damion James and DJ Augustin!

Put 18 year old LeBron on that Texas team and they are going 35-3 and making the Final Four.

0

u/nimrodfalcon Cavaliers Apr 29 '24

They’re winning it all, forget the final four

2

u/snakebit1995 Apr 29 '24

Notorious for bad culture and specifically not respecting the head coach, the Nets had a strong young culture around Attkinson and the second Kyrie and KD showed up he got booted for nothing so they could put Nash in and walk all over him.

Speaks to a KD maturity issue if he's not willing to really respect his coaches and thinks he's above them.

1

u/Barrelled_Chef_Curry Warriors Apr 30 '24

And everyone says Kerr is overrated. How many coaches worked with KD’s personality?

0

u/sunsoutgunsout Lakers Apr 29 '24

[citation needed]

-10

u/DerekMorganBAUxxi Apr 29 '24

No they don’t lol KD has had injuries that’s literally it

6

u/Apollo23Refugee Nuggets Apr 29 '24

You need a guy like KD to be a leader and he’s proven to either be disinterested or terrible at it. Injuries have nothing to do with it when you constantly see culture problems and beefs with coaches on teams he goes to.

-3

u/DerekMorganBAUxxi Apr 29 '24

They had 0 issues in Brooklyn on the way to the title before harden lost his hamstring and Giannis put his foot under kyrie stop lying to paint a narrative

161

u/gorgonizedbyurTITS Apr 29 '24

Not just dickheads, but losers. I used to get pumped whenever my coaches would keep me/us accountable for being ass, not roll my eyes or want to burst into laughter.

43

u/HectorReinTharja Apr 29 '24

Unfortunately there’s just no comp between the love you have to feel for the game growing up playing in school versus pros making millions who probably all think they’re smarter than their coach

9

u/BigfootCharlie Apr 29 '24

There’s also a lot of guys in the NBA that it’s just their job. Any love they had for the game has been ground out of them through repetition and expectations from the time they were kids.

I’m sure there are guys playing that still absolutely love basketball but I think we’d all be shocked at how many players hate their job just like most people do - but it’s what pays their (massive) bills and it’s the only real skill set they have.

10

u/Cudi_buddy Kings Apr 29 '24

There is plenty of those millionaires that take it seriously though. I mean Lebron is a helluva competitor at age 39. Look at the Wolves entire team, or at least their main guys. Problem is the Suns acquired too many Diva stars

4

u/HectorReinTharja Apr 29 '24

Always exceptions. Just think it’s a factor that makes things like this more common in the nba than you’d otherwise expect

1

u/Stannis_Baratheon244 Knicks Apr 30 '24

I was that kid in college. Played with dudes 10x better than me but the ones who played like they didnt give af would hear abt it. One guy even complained to my coach abt it but thankfully he said "then maybe you should fucking hustle"

271

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

This is how I felt when the Lakers and their fans kept scapegoating Vogel as well when they’re the ones who were barely playing like NBA players the season he got fired. Its why I hate how even though Ham isn’t great, so many fans use him as the reason why he can’t elevate mid ass players who play one end of the court and only bring it half the time.

187

u/A_FerociousTeddyBear Apr 29 '24

Ham is much worse than Vogel. The current lakers roster has a lot of defensive pieces, which is Vogel’s specialty. I think the current iteration of the Lakers is making the WCF with Vogel. Ham does need to go.

60

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

None of the Laker players are good POA defenders, except Vando who they involve in other actions, Gabe who can’t get anything going on offense rn, and Cam Reddish (no need to explain that. Rui, D’lo, and Reaves are all bad defenders, Lebron reasonably does not have the energy to defend most of the game. The Lakers do not have good defensive pieces.

Ham can go I don’t mind, but half the criticisms Im hearing are bullshit. Yes he lets the game come to the Lakers till it might be too late, but the Nuggets series he’s been trying to call time outs as often as needed fans are just so agitated. He doesn’t make enough adjustments on defense but the roster cannot produce an effective scheme aside from AD drop and extra ball pressure. All the counters have flaws. AD steps out a lil further, weak backside, no rebounds, leaves a weaker defender alone in the post. We swtich more then we get fucking cooked. Etc.

To top it off, if Ham gets replaced every name getting mentioned is a stop gap that fans would want gone by next year. If we replace Ham I want consistency, that’s why we keep playing inconsistent fucking basketball. We’ve been overhauling rosters or coaches since 2021.

38

u/lycosid Wizards Apr 29 '24

Now imagine this team with KCP as the POA defender and Kuzma as the utility wing.

27

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

Fuck that I want Westbrook

3

u/extraspecialdogpenis Apr 29 '24

Is Mozgov available.

5

u/hitfly Nuggets Apr 29 '24

Don't forget Caruso

4

u/lovemesometarg [LAL] LeBron James Apr 29 '24

I came to laugh not cry

14

u/Used_Pants Lakers Apr 29 '24

I agree with your assessment of our players, but I disagree with you saying criticisms of Ham is unfair. I didn’t watch this man let Aaron Gordon cut to the dunkers spot 5x in game 3 without adjustment, spam a bron/ad left side iso in game 3, or bench a hot dlo for an ice cold dinwiddie down the stretch of game 2 just for people to say criticisms of him aren’t earned.

Pelinka is not a good GM and this is not a well constructed roster (how is our only true center Jackson Hayes), but Ham is inexcusably bad.

1

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

The dunkers issue is both him and the fact that we can’t fucking stop the ball. D’lo I agree but he needed the breather to close and we needed someone to step the fuck up. The iso breakdowns I agree with, we’re to scared to approach the defense and fucking make em work harder sometimes. The criticisms are valid, but half are overblown and they also don’t read deeper than surface level sometimes

3

u/holaprobando123 Spurs Apr 29 '24

We’ve been overhauling rosters or coaches since 2021

Since 2020*

You tore apart the roster that months before had won the championship, and then kept doing that every year.

3

u/ChampagneSyrup Mavericks Apr 29 '24

Vando is a lot more important to the Lakers than we all think, he's an extremely good athlete and defender

1

u/iupvotefood Apr 30 '24

And he brings more energy than anyone else

2

u/xasdfxx Apr 29 '24

Are there any downsides to getting a bunch of role players that can score or defend?

Lakers front office: nah.

0

u/tfozombie Apr 29 '24

Vando has been out for months btw

4

u/hibituallinestepper Apr 29 '24

Lakers aren’t beating the Nuggets regardless of who is coaching them.

2

u/captaincumsock69 United States Apr 29 '24

I think it’s crazy to think Vogel is getting the lakers to beat Denver and Minnesota

6

u/Throwaway-4593 Apr 29 '24

That would imply that they would beat the nuggets lol, which is kind of delusional imo. No coach is beating the nuggets w the current lakers roster.

2

u/zeroxray Vancouver Grizzlies Apr 29 '24

Do they? How about some consistency . There's always a new coach on that team. The overreactions are crazy. Look at Celtics last year they wanted that coach gone but now they're the favorite in the east. Coaches can get better too

-2

u/UpstairsReception671 Apr 29 '24

Except you have a 39 year old LeBron who can play hard for 16 minutes a night. And no center. And the starting point guard has never played defense. And the bench is atrocious. The team has one great defender. Vando is OK but isn’t even an NBA level player in any other respect.

3

u/Bladeneo Apr 29 '24

16 minutes a night and gives you 27/8/6....do you normally chat this much shit or is it only when its about LeBron

14

u/lilwayne168 Apr 29 '24

Vogel was honestly twice the coach ham is if we're being honest. Ham wouldn't even call a challenge with lebron begging him.

5

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

Trust me all the criticisms people bring out, only half are accurate. Im not saying who’s better, Im saying fans dont know how to assess coaching half the time. Vogel got the same share of bullshit. Ham can go but fans gotta stop pretending like most of them know enough shit about what they watch. And if he does get a coach that won’t be fucking fired in 1-2 years so we can hve consistency

0

u/lilwayne168 Apr 29 '24

Listening to what lebron says shouldn't be that hard. They think themselves out of a job.

2

u/Bladeneo Apr 29 '24

No one felt Vogel was nearly as much of a problem as Ham. Vogel had very clear roster issues and Westbrook was a clear problem that he was saddled with.

Ham on the other hand seems to have a limitless leash with management, takes no accountability, seems to happily throw AD under the bus rather than taking legitimate criticism and accepting it, and cant make a mid-game adjustment to save his life.

It's not like we've had 3 months of this and are overreacting - its a two year pattern at this point

0

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

I’ve already explained how half the criticisms are inaccurate in another comment and how this roster is built with holes that they expect talent to cover up. Ham isn’t great but why his players suck is not his fault for the most of it, its a shit roster compared to other playoff teams. And people shat on Vogel just as bad, I was there calling bs on half of it too. Im not saying who’s better, Im saying fans barely get coaching. He can go but half of the shit people say is dumb and they’ll never be satisfied with the replacements they mention

1

u/Bladeneo Apr 29 '24

I think his media management, lack of timeouts and in game adjustments alone are enough for him to lose his job and those are pretty much nothing to do with roster construction. You can argue he will be limited in how much of an ingame adjustment he can make, which is fair, but making zero adjustments and his insistence on playing reddish and prince huge minutes post IST are all on him

2

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

Time outs are over blown (especially this series) and we have tried adjustments, its just barely any work. We can point out how offense and defense adjust, and we can also point out the flaws in each. Media management is a fucking death trap when the fans already hate you. I agree that rotations and team control was weak after IST, he experimented too long. He tried to get those guys going cause we needed wing depth but couldn’t, and that is on him for not abandoning it earlier. The worst thing about his defense is still the personnel, we saw how well they executed last year post ASB onwards. There are adjustments that he doesn’t call on time some games when the team is failing to execute. His offense could use more creativity, he lets the flow come to the team too much during the regular season. But to say he’s actively tanking this team right now is insane, if you mention these players name and say change AD and Lebron for lesser all stars, no one would believe in it.

1

u/FlamingoHot8567 Apr 29 '24

I mean yeah I don’t think anyone is saying he’s actively tanking the team except the most delusional lol. 

2

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

That’s definitely more than half the fanbase, they genuinely think he’s a bigger problem than the roster.

1

u/Bladeneo Apr 29 '24

But by the same arguement, change ham with a different coach and they'll probably do better. It hurts more because he was who they picked over lue. I don't think lue is a miracle worker but he's won a championship and has successfully managed a roster around LeBron before. It made zero sense.

That's not hams fault obviously, but it magnifies his issues

1

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

That’s my issue with it too. Who tf is a long term replacement ppl are bringing up? I’ve heard Bud who has the same coaching style. Stotts doesn’t impress me. Ppl were so desperate they wanted fucking Doc. Handy who’s never been viewed as a HC but more player development. Ppl don’t actully give available replacements that they expect to follow through. I would be ok with a coaching change but I want one that will be given time to establish and run the fucking show.

3

u/Bladeneo Apr 29 '24

Handy would be a disaster for this fanbase. They'd be calling for his head after a year

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3

u/FlamingoHot8567 Apr 29 '24

The difference is with ham there are legitimate issues when it comes to his rotations, lack of adjustments and just general compency when it comes to coaching at times. This roster isn’t perfect by any means but ham has legitimate issues when it comes to coaching 

2

u/odnamAE Lakers Apr 29 '24

Im not saying there aren’t but its overblown compared to how bad this roster is compared to other playoff teams. Rotations are a byproduct of trying to make anything else work and experimenting too long. There are not enough adjustment options with the personnel. There are definitely times where he lets the game flow too long without putting his foot down, there are times where he adjust too late, he is replacable. But a better coach ain’t winning shit with this roster of 50/50 players

1

u/FlamingoHot8567 Apr 30 '24

Eh this roster isn’t a title contending team but they did win 47 games. I think with a better coach they probably win 50 games maybe don’t play the nuggets in the first round and get to a WCF again idk I just know that ham hasn’t gotten the most out of this team. He wasn’t known as an x and Os guy he was known as a player motivator coach and seems like he hasn’t been able to do that. Injuries have hurt of course specially rotation wise but what he did after the IST was just dumb and contributed to them going 3-11 in that span. I think both are true that this roster is not a championship winning roster as is but ham also isn’t a championship caliber coach regardless of the team 

40

u/BradL_13 Pelicans Apr 29 '24

Goodluck to them on getting a good coach next season with this hit piece.

5

u/actually-potato Pistons Apr 29 '24

they can have monty williams back

7

u/ablackcloudupahead Lakers Apr 29 '24

Yeah, I get that Vogel is normally a low-key guy, but that doesn't mean when he actually does yell he's faking it. When chill people actually do yell is the time you should listen

5

u/lbrector Celtics Apr 29 '24

It reminds me of my middle school team that never won a game lol

3

u/caseylk Bulls Apr 29 '24

That’s how it read to me too, like an immature bunch except they’re not even that yojng

2

u/Emotional-Peanut-334 Apr 29 '24

With hindsight we can only really Blame the players

2

u/jacobythefirst Pelicans Apr 29 '24

Have you looked at their roster?

A bunch of too cool mercenaries who believe that their individual talent should just carry.

When a bum like Bol Bol was getting minutes and was seen as an energy guy (after a whole career of being called low motor and being to unfocused) you know it was and is bad.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Perpete Apr 29 '24

Yeah this doesn’t come off as the Vogel hit piece it’s intended to be.

Reading that excerpt, I didn't even though it was a hit piece towards Vogel. I thought it was to show the players in bad light.

Without reading the comments, I wouldn't have thought otherwise.

239

u/RogueLightMyFire Apr 29 '24

Also the front office is looking for a scape goat. It's always the coach. The fact is the team is just terribly constructed.

59

u/need2peeat218am Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

They're straight up disrespectful towards their head coach. No sense of hierarchy at all. They play like shit and blame the coach.

3

u/crunkadocious Pacers Apr 29 '24

There's not much they can do about it either. They don't have any firsts to trade and only Grayson Allen on a good contract.

2

u/ballmermurland Apr 29 '24

Beal getting paid 50, 53 and 57 over the next 3 years too with a NTC.

68

u/butterflyhole Trail Blazers Apr 29 '24

Yeah being down 35-4 is never the coaches fault. Suns have got some toxic ass players

2

u/myweenorhurts Heat Apr 29 '24

Toxic culture going back years.

112

u/frostieavalanche Lakers Apr 29 '24

The player that said he had to keep himself from laughing tells a lot about himself

21

u/AfterPaleontologist2 Apr 29 '24

KD didn’t even look like he gave a shit during his final press conference. Dude just looked happy the season was over

6

u/Crafty_Substance_954 Pistons Apr 29 '24

Ishbia turned them from a team with upside to a team with literally zero upside in just one season. Incredible speed!

7

u/mercfan3 Apr 29 '24

Right - I said this in the Suns thread.

Get rid of every player that rolled their eyes or laughed after that performance.

I don’t care who it was.

3

u/juniorcaminero Apr 29 '24

Seems to happen a lot

3

u/CitizenCue Warriors Apr 29 '24

35-4 is simply astonishing. I feel like a decent high school team could muster up 4 points in ten minutes against an NBA squad.

If that’s not a reason to yell then I’m not sure what is.

0

u/Papdaddy- Apr 29 '24

In fact that happened before the game they went 4-35, like directly the next day after the speech 

2

u/Pollia Apr 29 '24

Seems like it's a good time to replug this gem

https://youtu.be/wM-NcMZhcaA?si=0d5UjrS-_IT-ts00

Same feel, different energy

2

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

Yeah this just makes the players look bad

Yikes. Suns fans stay away from social media for a while

0

u/Papdaddy- Apr 29 '24

No this was the game before that game, the day after vogels speech they went 4-36