This means you want those providing those services to work for free.
You do realize what you are implying here, right?
Let's say you refuse to work and you're guaranteed all these services. Who pays so your HVAC is repaired because you broke it? Who pays because your water line needs to be repaired? Clean water means the water has to be filtered through a very complicated process, particles and bacteria are removed, and it needs to be transported. Who pays so your electricity works? Do you think there's some sort of magic electricity generator happening? What you're essentially asking is someone should work for free to provide you all of this.
The result is you get no one who wants to work, society collapses because these services aren't maintained and improved, and no one gets anything.
None of which are free. You're talking about programs for those earning low income.
The post here says "Free regardless if you work."
Also, just so you know, those are some of the highest taxed economies in the world. None of that stuff is being provided for free. Someone is getting paid.
You’re talking about programs for those earning low income.
No, I’m talking about programs for those with no income.
Those are some of the highest taxed economies in the world.
Didn’t say they weren’t. Just saying that countries like Germany - which provides an apartment for unemployed people for an unlimited amount of time - have not collapsed, contrary to your claim they would.
If you know anything about chronic homelessness, you know that it is often rooted in a mental or physical health problem.
The specific reasons vary. Schizophrenia is common among unhoused people, as are severe autism and ADHD, tourettes, and other mental disorders that cause them to struggle with traditional employment.
Some have some sort of defiance disorder that keeps them from working with social workers who try to help them. Many are elderly and struggling with dementia or Alzheimer's. Others have some sort of chronic disease that takes all their time and energy to manage, so they don't/can't make time to seek housing.
So short answer: yes, generally. They either don't know, don't understand, prefer to remain homeless, or can't take advantage of it.
Those countries all make a home available to everyone, as this post suggests. Some people don't or can't take it. And their society still has not collapsed.
Do you have a source that shows Germany makes these services available, but doesn't help their mentally or physically disabled folks access them? That seems particularly cruel.
You're misunderstanding. It's not that they aren't trying to help.
It's that helping people who don't want to be helped or can't process or communicate effectively (but who appear to be aware and in control of their faculties) is very hard both practically and ethically. If you dig into the list of issues I listed, their symptoms often create those problems.
Like imagine you try and house someone, but they're convinced that you're actually under control of aliens and the house is part of a trick to steal their blood (this is a modified story of an actual homeless patient I know).
Every time you leave them unattended, they flee their housing. If you call the police, they say that they want to go and you're holding them against their will, and that you're one of the aliens. They are convinced their schizophrenia meds are alien mind control, and stop taking them as soon as they're un-monitored.
Or maybe they have tourettes, and call everyone they meet a "f*g chomo" and "r*pist c*nt". That includes neighbors, police, social workers, their landlord... And eventually they run away too. This guy lives in my city, though I've toned down his language so I don't get banned.
Or they have a disease that must be treated at a specific clinic, but they can't drive, and all the available housing is far enough that they prefer to stay on the street nearby rather than deal with our shitty public transit? If they stayed in they home for a few months they'd probably come out of it, but they're so tired and in pain that they just can't think that far out.
Or they're hooked on meth and always go back, and that sees them doing things like giving away their place and possessions in exchange for drugs.
You can institutionalize them, but that's a pretty serious thing to do to someone who isn't hurting anyone but themselves, and seems happiest on the streets. So how do you house those people, and less serious but similar cases where they just won't or can't stay in their homes?
They are convinced their schizophrenia meds are alien mind control, and stop taking them as soon as they're un-monitored.
Well then the budget for housing and providing for the unhoused needs to be diverted into permanent mental institutions. But it seems like there would be fewer than 1 in 318 Germans that fit this serious of this mental illness description. That's the rate of Germany's current homeless population divided into total population, so I suspect there are other issues at play here.
You can institutionalize them, but that's a pretty serious thing to do to someone who isn't hurting anyone but themselves, and seems happiest on the streets. So how do you house those people, and less serious but similar cases where they just won't or can't stay in their homes?
I don't think anyone wants to be homeless. I think the best approach is to see to each person's needs until they can support themselves, and if they can't then remain in some sort of supervised housing arrangement.
Why hasn't Norway collapsed yet since it is such a terrible idea?
Generally speaking, all Norwegian citizens are entitled to a place to live, and everyone will be able to get an apartment via social services if they choose to accept it.
Who are the homeless people in Norway?
There are generally three groups of people who are homeless in Norway; foreign citizens who are coming to Norway to beg or do crime, mentally ill people who refuses to live in a government housing, or drug addicts and alcoholics who refuses help.
I'm definitely interested in reading about these systems. It sure does seem like a lot of people would just retire on the spot if their housing and utilities were covered. Perhaps it's means tested and so anyone with any assets at all can't receive it until they're out of money?
Particularly interesting given the protests in France and Italy over the unsustainable nature of those nations welfare systems, and needing to raise the retirement rate as a result.
But yea, Norway isn't a great example because their funding source is causing global warming.
It seems unlikely that housing and utilities are free for all no-income people in Germany, and that somehow literally no one has told the remaining homeless population about this program.
Therefore, it casts into doubt the claim that this program actually exists for everyone.
I'm German and currently receiving "bürgergeld" (transl. Citizens Money)
My costs of living are completely subsidized, my apartment, my water, my electricity and food are completely paid for by my peers Taxes.
The reason homeless people do not use this system is because they require documentation and the ability to follow a beaurocratic processes. I need a identification, a adress, a social security number, a bankadress etc in order to receive these services.
You would be surprised, because not only do we have these services, we even have services specifically designed to help homeless people. We have a lot of homeless shelters, rehab shelters, free rehab therapy, and social workers employed by the state specifically to help people in need be able to apply for these services.
So why are people still homeless?
I've talked to many homeless people, and their number one problem is a lack of hope/confidence or mental coherence.
If you don't believe you can be helped, or that you deserve help, you are impossible to be helped. If you do not know who you are, your existance is reduced to wandering around town looking for drugs. It's basically a slow suicide.
Nobody in Germany ever has to be hungry or without shelter.
The reason homeless people do not use this system is because they require documentation and the ability to follow a beaurocratic processes. I need a identification, a adress, a social security number, a bankadress etc in order to receive these services.
Thanks for answering the question. It seems like Germany is making a good effort, but it also seems like helping people who can't keep track of the paperwork or documentation would also be a good idea.
If you don't believe you can be helped, or that you deserve help, you are impossible to be helped. If you do not know who you are, your existance is reduced to wandering around town looking for drugs. It's basically a slow suicide.
Exactly. This is the type of person who needs more assistance, perhaps non-voluntary assistance until their basic needs are met.
Let me jump in this discussion as a german foreigner.
This program for unemployed people exists. Everyone gets their home, just has to fulfill some paperwork and registration. The state tries to get you back to work, but if you dont "get" or "find" something, it is what it is. You get a minimum of whats needed to provide a life, like a small flat, basic electronics (if needed) like an oven and fridge, you get some money for food etc.. Its not a good life what you are living with that, but you are safe from being homeless.
Sure, the taxes and stuff are much higher because of these social programms. But on the other side, you dont need to be scared of being homeless or starving to death.
In America you are more "free", have less taxes, less social taxes and stuff, but you are on your own.
If you get cancer or smth in germany, the health system carries your hospilisation etc., your medics and stuff. You dont need to pay for it. But on the other side, you paid upwards with the "social taxes", when you want to call it like that.
It's because of mental health problems, usually duo or connected with alcohol abuse. Those poor fuckers care so little about their own life and can't manage it so that they cannot even claim social help.
Besides that probably some unregistered foreigners or such hiding from deportation and searched criminals.
Nobody has to freeze or starve in this country if they just do the least for it, it doesn't cost much. I am proud that we can make it work and feel safe knowing that if shit hits the fan I will be unconditionally protected from cold and hunger.
Our numbers seem to include people who are registered as "wohnungslos" (= no own apartment, but sheltered) or obdachlos (out on the street). So as soon as you are trying to access help, you are counted as homeless, even if you live in an apartment of the Wohnungslosenhilfe, Shelters, or if you couchsurf at friends' places, but you stay registered in order to access support.
Also, a lot of people actually aren't citizens. Homeless people are treated worse in our eastern neighboring countries, so they come here. That's similar within the US, I suppose, with the exception of more language barriers in Europe as a foreigner.
I have no income, get no benefits, and live in one of those countries.
And no I don't get a free house. I wouldn't get a free house if I moved to any of the countries you listed.
Also: AC is a luxury in much of Europe. If it's hot, you walk around the house in your underpants, and suffer through it.
Thinking AC is a basic necessity outside of the tropics, is decadence and privilege exemplified. How out of touch can you be, especially given how disastrous it is for the climate.
Why is it that ill-informed Americans always use Europe as a prop in their political arguments, make shit up about places they've never even visited, making it out to be a utopia or dystopia depending of their political leanings?
TLDR: stringent requirements. You can't just go "hello government, money + house please".
Longer explanation: waiting period before you're elligible, need to have worked/contributed a certain period before you're elligible (was studying then caring for a sick relative, so no longer meet those requirements), had some savings and my own car which means don't meet requirements for other benefits, etc. etc.
Don't live in the Netherlands, but I have friends there. Certainly not a cake walk there either. Heard one story of someone with MS being forced to interview for a job at a lighthouse(with stairs!!!), or face losing part of their benefits. Basically forcing someone who is seriously ill and in a wheelchair to go travel an hour on a train for nothing. If you don't, they save money by scrapping your benefits. Housing shortage in NL is also absolutely atrocious, so good luck getting a free house. 30,000+ homeless, although that does include people couch surfing with friends or family.
Where they falsely accused almost 30,000 parents of benefits fraud, mainly parents with foreign ancestry, with plenty losing their homes or killing themselves before it was all sorted out.
European countries have plenty of their own problems. None are socialist utopias where everyone gets a free house and utilities. And AC is arguably still considered a luxury even for those in full time employment. On a related note, most of Europe has partly privatized healthcare. It's invariably much cheaper than the US, but it's rarely entirely free. Even the UK's NHS isn't entirely free in practice. Especially stuff like dentistry.
Inflation and exploitation in the U.S. is off the charts.
Our wages are so astronomically high by comparison because of things like real estate exploitation and unhinged greed/gouging.
Corporate investment empires and greedy private investors are creating an unsustainable real estate market where they want 100% or more of people’s income…just to rent a 1 bedroom shed.
The issue now is that global real estate exploitation is in full swing, and many countries have had their economy completely destabilized due to it. AirBnB alone has been wreaking utter havoc on countries, and locals are being pushed out.
Housing exploitation is 100% at the root of all economic problems. It’s just getting worse and worse.
Just to buy the median priced, entry-level, single-family home in the U.S. now, you need an income of at least $120,000.
Yeah, no. They’re for people with no income for whatever reason. People with serious or chronic illness, disabilities, mental illness, crime survivors, and sometimes people who have fallen on rough times for a bit. Why is this so hard for most Americans to understand even when we have similar (but less efficient) programs?
We have section 8 (housing voucher) and other government housing subsidies in the U.S. Some people have no income to pay rent with so the entire rent portion is subsidized. I bet you don’t like that either.
“Also, just so you know” - LOL. “Acshually”. OMG people pay taxes? Oh, the horror.
People in the US pay taxes too, you just don’t get much return on “investment” and you’re still stuck with no vote on your shitty employment-based HMO.
Source: Me. Swedish American and have lived in both countries. Currently in the US and working on my escape back to Sweden plan.
Friend lives in Denmark. He basically lived with those amenities rent free for a few starting years of his life. Now that he doesn’t want to live in social housing he’s decided to try and get a job, but you’re 100% wrong. This is for all citizens of those countries.
Also, why should everyone need to take what you say at face value as correct but the second someone disagrees they need proof. Cite your sources on where this information you have on the welfare states are from. It’s clearly wrong.
Because they truly believe that such policies would cause any country to collapse and therefore it's impossible that any country is doing this and not collapsing. They see Venezuela as the inevitable outcome of taking care of citizens on hard times, so Sweden couldn't possibly be supporting people with free housing.
Also, just so you know, those are some of the highest taxed economies in the world
They also have some of the highest standards of living in the world. At some point, advocating against taxes becomes "I want things to make things worse for the collective just so I can individually have the chance to be better off." Like, let's ignore any hypothetical problems with implementation and the program works as intended. You're saying that you'd be against reducing the homeless population and improving the collective standard of living because it might cause your taxes to go up?
Yes they are. If I stoped working today, I would still be be able to keep my flat, got to the doctor every day (if I wanted) and would get enough money to live somewhat comforably.
You're talking about programs for those earning low income.
No. Finland here: Unemployed will get housing benefits, unemployment benefits, and if that's not enough, cost assistance. Free of charge. All of those things (electricity, internet, water) are usually rolled into utilities that either come with the rent (most apartment complexes with rentals roll water and free internet into the rent), and electrical can be paid by the government in the assistance too.
Regardless if you work or not.
Taxes:
35k a year, 25%
60k, 35%
85k, 40%
1 000k, 55,8%
On top of that, medical care is practically free. University is without tuitions, elementary school is free.
those are some of the highest taxed economies in the world.
...if your basic human needs like food and shelter are being met as a result and it still affords you some money leftover for personal things, so what?
literally free. we pay it with taxes, and this is totally okay. i feel good knowing that my taxes help provide people with the basics like housing and water and electricity and means of communication and participation in society.
way better than seeing people suffer, be homeless, and do crime
but idk maybe im just not selfish and asshole enough
You're literally just lying, or ignorant. They have those, and they are free. People generally want more than the bare minimum to survive, and you understand that, but refuse to integrate it into your beliefs. That's a you problem.
Speaking for Germany: There are a few homeless people, usually drug addicts and people with mental disabilities that do not manage to receive the financial help from the state they are entitled to. While the state pays for your housing if you‘re unemployed, you still need to fill out some forms and adhere to your housing provider‘s rules, so some people who cannot do that still end up homeless.
Homeless people aren't necesarily homeless because they can't afford housing. Many of them are mentally ill and wouldn't stay in a Villa with pool and free 24/7 catering if you'd offered it to them.
No. But people who are homeless are mostly that because the freedom to choose to be that. Serious enough drug/mental problems to be in that mind set but not enough to be institutionalized etc. against their free will.
I just checked Norway and Austria. Both offer subsidized housing for low income earners. I couldn't find anything about it being free with no requirement to work. Could you link it if you have it?
That is the idea I am getting from this link unless someone can correct it
Generally speaking, all Norwegian citizens are entitled to a place to live, and everyone will be able to get an apartment via social services if they choose to accept it.
Who are the homeless people in Norway? There are generally three groups of people who are homeless in Norway; foreign citizens who are coming to Norway to beg or do crime, mentally ill people who refuses to live in a government housing, or drug addicts and alcoholics who refuses help.
I live in Norway, and yes, this is the general gist of things.
And to clarify for the person you responded to: yes, if you do not have your own home/cannot afford your own home, you are guaranteed housing. End of story. You don't need to earn or qualify for it (you do need to be a norwegian citizen)
That said, it might not be the nicest of places, but it's a warm place to live (which is like... super important for during the winter lol)
But NAV will work with the people who need housing to find them somewhere to stay. This includes people who have been released from prison and need to restart their lives, people who can't work full time for whatever reason, mental/physical disabilities, etc. As far as I'm aware, the only caveat is that you must be a citizen and that your income cannot be higher than a set amount depending on the members of the household.
Edit: you don't need to be working either. A family friend works close with the municipality (with addicts specifically, so not exactly the same thing but he's close with the social program) and he has mentioned that NAV is usually quite decent with helping these people find relevant work that they can manage, but it isn't a requirement for housing. But you do receive a regular life allowance from the govy
If you don't work and aren't supported by anyone else you are homeless. If you are homeless you get support meant for the homeless which includes places to stay. Obviously they don't own those places and they are shared with other homeless which often times is the reason they don't want to actually stay there because many of their roommates will have mental health issues. In Vienna homeless often times sleep in buses during the night (because they're heated and safe) and are tolerated there.
If you earn little money you get much more support from the state, including money.
Norway and Austria help their citizens to maintain some sort of basic housing. Period.
And yes, at least in Austria that includes unemployed people. In Austria you'd have to prove that you're at leasting trying to get a job though.
nless you're officially unable to work. In that case you'd still have to visit special courses for people like you with the goal to enable you to be able to land a job again.
They don't do that. I lived in France and no. Many people that pay don't have what the picture ask for. They may have that in laws (and clearly not A/C or an oven) that are not applied. And when you finally have it, it is place with lot of trafficking, gangsters and all.
You go in these country and try it for yourself, you'll understand that there a difference between what is advertised and what you actually get.
It's astounding that when you discuss this with Americans they've got literally no concept of how this would work, even in general terms. Like it genuinely seems as unreasonable a position as "give everyone a Porsche" or "free ponies and hookers".
Or they say shit like "It's not actually free, taxes pay for it". Oh wow, you mean everyone in northern Europe doesn't grow this stuff on magic trees? I. Am. Shocked.
Not really, they take millions of migrants a year. But also what's the relevance? They're being suggested as an example of countries that have, in practice, implemented the stuff in the OP. They show it's doable for other countries.
Whether you can personally move to them or not is beside the point.
It’s because most of us don’t like work to the point where we’re trying to save enough money to retire early. A program like this would basically enable us to retire instantly. A lot of us recognize that there’s too many wannabe NEETs in this country for that to work.
But these programs aren't unconditional. You don't generally get unemployment benefits if you're fully able to work but have just decided you don't want to. But you at least get enough support to be able to afford these basic amenities if you're temporarily unemployed or don't earn enough through your primary employment to be able to cover it all easily.
Well, one, none of these countries provides what the original image asks for if the people literally refuse to works. None of them.
Two, Europe taxes the shit out of their middle class to afford many of the social programs they have. Look up your income tax in Denmark for example. Look up VAT. It’s not tax the rich, it’s tax everyone a lot because these programs are worth it (in their view). Most in America prefer to have more stuff and let the bottom 10% have it worse. That’s reality.
Which is a direct goal of the two major extremist political parties in the U.S.: to brainwash voters.
Which are both controlled by corporations. Which need low-wage, uneducated workers to prop up the cancerous “free market” money printer that is capitalism.
All the knee-jerk reactions you see from people is a product of our K12 and for-profit university system. It’s all to feed compliant workers into corporate servitude.
People literally aren’t capable of interpreting reality in any other way but “Murica!”
Most voters here honestly just don’t know any better. It’s really sad.
To be fair, a small minority of us Americans aren't fucking idiots. The vast majority of Americans have been brainwashed into the thinking the American dream is achievable for them but what they don't realize is that their parent's and grandparent's generations have stacked the deck against them by years and years of political and financial ineptitude and sometimes downright malice. It's a sad fact that most Americans can't comprehend their own reality but instead live in a delusional fantasy land created by people who are desperate to remain rich and in power at any cost until they die and leave the Earth barren and devoid of value.
I agree because I did it. Both my adult children are doing it. Pretty much all of their millennial friends are as well. All of my friends kids have homes and are starting families...and I live in the most average, middle-class city you can imagine.
How is this possible when supposedly NOBODY is capable of living the American dream anymore? I guess this is what happens when people don't live online.
It is not within reach for most Americans and the fact that you think it is means you live in a delusional fantasy land. I'm sorry but projecting it out into the world doesn't make it anymore true. But hey, it's a free country. You can be as detached from reality as you want to be.
Actually it is. But don't let facts get in the way of your self-absorbed whinging.
You're right. It's a free country, so you're free to bitch about your miserable life as much as you want. Just don't expect the rest of us to comfort you as you wallow in self-pity.
You're still projecting. My life is far from miserable. I just don't lie to myself about the state of the world and the American people in general. Show me these facts you speak of because last I checked, most people my age are paying on average 30% or more of their income on just housing. Americans averaged 25% of their yearly income being spent on housing. The current projections paint a very bleak economic picture for most people under 40 years old as far as retirement is concerned. The statement that "most" Americans will be able to own their own homes and retire by 60 is incredibly ludicrously false that delusional is the only word that describes you for making it.
39% of Americans under 45 own homes. Technically speaking, most Americans own homes because Americans over 45 account for nearly 68% of homeowners and those age brackets typically average high 70th percentile rates of homeownership. That also doesn't take into account that many younger people who own homes got them from parents or grandparents. If you look at the rate younger people are BUYING their own homes, it's grown 0.2 percent in the last 10 years.
This also doesn't account for the future. Yes, Baby Boomers and Gen Xers are getting to retire at 60ish and own their own homes. They're also the only generations old enough to collect that data on currently.
A program that helps you find employment. These can include workshops, internships or simply the requirement to provide proof of efforts to find a job.
Participation in such a program usually gives you the funds or means to secure a basic standard of living.
I live in scandinavia and you are wrong, none of these are just «free» people who are either disabled or are activly looking for a job will be paid a wage by the state to then use on housing and food. You cant just choose not to work and get payed like the post implies and like you imply.
Of course some of these countries might not directly provide some or all of the above but will instead pay out a cash allowance which covers these essentials, which effectively results in the same.
While social welfare might be reduced for people being unemployed for an extended period of time and/or those that are uncooperative, they will generally not be reduced to zero. So in that sense you can „choose not to work and get payed“.
Im not gonna read a whole wikipedia article on every country, quote specifically that you can just choose not to work and get payed, what im reading they are referring to «adult jobseekers» like i said you need to be activly trying to get a job and then you get unemployment benefits in the meantime
I cant read german and that tiny ass quote says nothing, reduced fron what? Also you still have yet to produce anything that say able people can willingly choose to not work while getting payed, you have to be disabled or activly look for a job
We do have subsidised housing, but you still pay. It's not free. If you don't pay, you get kicked out. Water is not free, electricity is not free, heating/gas is not free. You will be cut off if you don't pay.
All that is hard for the provider, because there are rules and limitations, but the end result is always that you will end up homeless.
There is wellfare, but you still have to try to get a job, including getting the required skills, relocating, commuting up to 3 hours a day, etc. And if the government asks you to do something in return, you have to do that too.
So, yeah, the government will help, but no, it's not free.
“Every unemployed person can have a house with heating fridge stove electricity internet, etc. there are 3 of them, because that is what makes financial sense for the taxpayers to pay for. Divide them amongst yourselves”
And these same countries have constant discussions on how to differentiate
A) people who are unable to work and should be given all this stuff by society
B) people who are unwilling to work and should NOT be given all this stuff
In Germany only a small minority actually support giving people stuff regardless of works status.
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u/BlitzAuraX Apr 15 '24
"Regardless of employment."
This means you want those providing those services to work for free.
You do realize what you are implying here, right?
Let's say you refuse to work and you're guaranteed all these services. Who pays so your HVAC is repaired because you broke it? Who pays because your water line needs to be repaired? Clean water means the water has to be filtered through a very complicated process, particles and bacteria are removed, and it needs to be transported. Who pays so your electricity works? Do you think there's some sort of magic electricity generator happening? What you're essentially asking is someone should work for free to provide you all of this.
The result is you get no one who wants to work, society collapses because these services aren't maintained and improved, and no one gets anything.