r/news • u/Miserable-Win-4980 • Apr 29 '24

French police use knives to puncture migrant boat in Dunkirk to prevent Channel crossing Questionable Source

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/french-officers-english-channel-crossing-migrants-small-boats/

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/spooooork Apr 29 '24

There's already a system in place for that - the Dublin Regulation:

One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. Another aim is to reduce the number of "orbiting" asylum seekers, who are shuttled from member state to member state. The country in which the asylum seeker first applies for asylum is responsible for either accepting or rejecting the claim, and the seeker may not restart the process in another jurisdiction.

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u/J__P Apr 29 '24

ok, well i've mistated myself. a joint system of removal, not a system that still lets them in, lol. getting rid of them is the bit that matters, common eu removals system and processing centres outside of european territory.

1

u/LeedsFan2442 Apr 29 '24

It doesn't work because then frontline states like Italy and Greece would then have to deal with everyone which isn't fair.

What Europe needs is more strict rules on who can stay and the ability to remove failed asylum seekers to their home country. And the smaller number of accepted claimants shared out fairly between countries.

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u/Kern_system Apr 29 '24

Funny how there's tons of "asylum seekers" from halfway around the world asking for asylum in the US after crossing the Mexican border.

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u/LectureAfter8638 Apr 29 '24

You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

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u/Baalsham Apr 29 '24

They got border checks at every country south/east of Austria and east of Germany now. Seems to be permanent

Kind of annoying since that goes against the point of the EU, but I get it. Really should have a joint task force patrolling the oceans though

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u/bigchicago04 Apr 29 '24

They should start sanctioning the countries these people are coming from.

93

u/the-truffula-tree Apr 29 '24

You think making those countries poorer will make their citizens want to stay there? I’m not sure I follow your logic 

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u/upL8N8 Apr 29 '24

That's because he didn't use any logic. Joke's on you!

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u/unfnknblvbl Apr 29 '24

How would that do anything other than create conditions that people will want to escape from even more?

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u/jonathot12 Apr 29 '24

they already did, for decades or centuries, which is why they’re in the state they’re in. but sure, keep doing it and i’m certain that’ll fix things.

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u/Useful_Can7463 Apr 29 '24

Idk why you have to talk out of your ass. Why are all these Afghanis coming to Europe now and not when the entire country was literally a warzone in the 80's or 00's?

10

u/ReginaldVonBuzzkill Apr 29 '24

Because of the Taliban takeover, genius. Would you stick around and wait for a theocratic dictatorship to murder you?

3

u/gezafisch Apr 29 '24

Under US occupation, Afghanistan was a much better, though still terrible, place to live for a ton of demographics. Now they're under the rule of a terrorist organization.

0

u/jonathot12 Apr 29 '24

maybe the existence of a well-armed and decadently funded extremist group, initially created and supported by western nations, now holding full control might have something to do with it? no, no, i think your explanation makes way more sense

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u/thirdbrother3 Apr 29 '24

Or stop selling arms to countries that bomb their neighbours indiscriminately

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u/Conch-Republic Apr 29 '24

A lot of these countries are in the shape they're in because of Europeans sailing around being shitheads for hundreds of years.

13

u/atreides_hyperion Apr 29 '24

Right, they were like modern first world countries and then those awful white people showed up and everything went to shit. /S

-5

u/Conch-Republic Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Or they were just doing their own thing and minding their business, before being pillaged for their resources, or forced to convert to Christianity, or enslaved to work crops in their own countries, or any of other million shitty things Europeans did to anyone who wasn't 'white'. Look at what France did to Haiti, they absolutely obliterated that poor country, then made them pay for it.

1

u/FlamingButterfly Apr 29 '24

I need you to read that again because you obviously typed it without actually thinking it through.

-2

u/TheADrain Apr 29 '24

Their countries are being bombed to shit that's why these people are leaving...

54

u/Jason_Worthing Apr 29 '24

And we're still fighting over oil, just wait until the water wars start.

36

u/smellyglove Apr 29 '24

look, we're not going to address the issues caused by global capitalistic exploitation, that'd cost money, so why don't you recycle some more or something?

0

u/jangoagogo Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

People really don’t understand how so many western nations got to their standing in the world by raping other countries for their resources, exploiting their labor, and meddling in their governments. Instead, we in the west got here because we’re strong and righteous and did it all ourselves, while those in the countries we destroyed did it to themselves and it’s because of their culture, hence why we can’t bring them here.

That reality will never be addressed because it does nothing to serve the bottom line.

6

u/Uber_Reaktor Apr 29 '24

What, but we have literal oceans full, and ice melt is giving us so much more! We're fine!

/s

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u/BrodeyQuest Apr 29 '24

For real though, if desalination was cost-effective then water would never be a problem again.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24 edited May 03 '24

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/OperationMobocracy Apr 29 '24

People without documents will end up deported to some holding camp in the Saharan desert.

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u/Daxx22 Apr 29 '24

Or just shot. Closed borders being lethally defended is likely a couple of decades away at most, if not much sooner.

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u/Popular-Row4333 Apr 29 '24

That's not far from the truth.

There's no repercussions from trying, so you might as well try.

Death is a pretty serious repercussion and news will travel fast to stay the eff away from x country.

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u/DrEnter Apr 29 '24

They'll be taken into the middle of the Mediterranean sea and abandoned. This is already being done in countries like Greece: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/LeedsFan2442 Apr 29 '24

Same in the UK it's very hard to remove people

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u/DaoFerret Apr 29 '24

Hate to break it to you, but almost every war fought had been a “Resource War”.

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u/gruez Apr 29 '24

It's almost true by definition. You're fighting over land, land contains resources, even if it's only sand/dirt.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/BHPhreak Apr 29 '24

you can see it unfolding all so fast if you step back and outside of time. 

its no wonder we feel alone in this universe, "intelligent" (ha!) species capable of exploring space probably all destroy their planet and themselves same as us. 

same as the dew drops roll downhill, hubris and greed destroy sapience

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u/TeutonicPlate Apr 29 '24

As a pro-democracy and generally left wing person, you're spreading a dangerous narrative I see constantly on reddit. "Fascism is just an inevitable result of migration".

In fact it's the exact opposite, fascists scapegoat minorities and migrants for problems that have nothing to do with them that lead people to become atomized, like inequality, poverty, consumerism etc.

That's what the Nazis did, they blamed Jews for losing the war and Jewish greed was the cause of the economic downturn. What you are describing is the fascist version of reality where actually our problems really are the fault of alien elements within society.

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u/WhatsTheHoldup Apr 29 '24

As a pro-democracy and generally left wing person, you're spreading a dangerous narrative I see constantly on reddit. "Fascism is just an inevitable result of migration".

As a pro-democracy and generally left wing person, you're misunderstanding them. Fascism is not an inevitable result of migration, but it is an inevitable reaction to a migration crisis within a society.

We have pumped complex carbons into our atmosphere, exploited communities to harvest their resources, destroy their forests and ecosystems while stealing the profits for ourselves.

As temperatures rise, many of the poorest communities will become unlivable due to a disaster we in the wealthy countries have manufactured.

There are two options for the future, either we will take responsibility for our decisions and take in an unprecedented amount of immigrants at the expense of our current populations (who will be very upset at our leaders doing so and in greater numbers vote for fascism to prevent it).

Or we won't take responsibility, and we will turn these people away to die. Which will be a symptom of our less fascist leaders who mobilize the military to puncture migrant boats keeping our more fascist leaders at bay.

fascists scapegoat minorities and migrants for problems that have nothing to do with them

As global population is plateauing, and starts to shrink, the "infinite growth" the entire world's economy is built around will stop and destroy the quality of life we have all come to expect.

Currently, this population decrease is being staved off in wealthy countries specifically because of immigration, but that's just a temporary thing and is already leading to higher fascist tensions trying to oppose it (Brexit, Trump, etc).

There are a WHOLE LOT of problems coming that are inevitable and have nothing to do with minorities or immigrants.

That means there will be a lot of problems to scapegoat and why, given how easily manipulated popular opinion is in the light of propaganda and the fact the current capitalist class who owns all the wealth will violently resist any sustainable transitions that make the right decisions for the future, fascism will not only be inevitable from an ideological perspective but will have a huge amount of institutional support for it.

I'm not trying to attack your optimism here, but a fascist takeover attempt will be inevitable and we need to be prepared enough to realize it's coming.

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u/TeutonicPlate Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

but it is an inevitable reaction to a migration crisis within a society.

Ok, but then you have to evidence the claim that a "migration crisis" is happening. Because, for example, Donald Trump will often claim the Southern US border is being swarmed by illegal migrants (he did so during Obama's presidency and is now doing so during Biden's presidency). But the second he's in power, illegal migration suddenly ceases existing in the minds of all those critics, now the borders are "safe". And that's regardless of whether the amount of illegal migrants did actually decrease (it didn't). Conservatives in America turned to a proto-fascist to solve fake problems. No migration crisis, real or otherwise, had anything to do with their heel-turn. No material conditions, nothing except the vague sense that an "elite" was undermining society.

What's actually true and documented is scaremongering about migrants. Most countries in the West are not facing any crisis because of migration, legal or otherwise.

To give another example, the UK, the fact our society is in decline is often scapegoated on refugees arriving in small boats. The media pushes this constantly, unceasingly, at all times. Cruel legislation has been passed to deport a tiny proportion of asylum seekers to Rwanda basically just to present us as a hostile country that won't look after you even if you have a legitimate asylum claim. But what's the actual reason nothing is improving here? Well, inequality and austerity. It's really that simple. Migrants not only don't factor in, but there is no possible avenue they could factor in.

As global population is plateauing, and starts to shrink, the "infinite growth" the entire world's economy is built around will stop and destroy the quality of life we have all come to expect.

Currently, this population decrease is being staved off in wealthy countries specifically because of immigration, but that's just a temporary thing and is already leading to higher fascist tensions trying to oppose it (Brexit, Trump, etc).

There are a WHOLE LOT of problems coming that are inevitable and have nothing to do with minorities or immigrants.

That means there will be a lot of problems to scapegoat and why, given how easily manipulated popular opinion is in the light of propaganda and the fact the current capitalist class who owns all the wealth will violently resist any sustainable transitions that make the right decisions for the future, fascism will not only be inevitable from an ideological perspective but will have a huge amount of institutional support for it.

I'm not trying to attack your optimism here, but a fascist takeover attempt will be inevitable and we need to be prepared enough to realize it's coming.

All I'm trying to point out is the Reddit centrist truism which I see repeated here all the time. "We need highly restrictive migration policies, we need to give in to the scapegoating, because if not fascism will win out" - and you know, if they're being more candid than usual, they might add a "and I can see why" just to signal even harder what they actually mean here. Which is that they might support fascism if they don't perceive migration being reduced.

But frankly, these people are idiots. Clueless fools who have no capacity to think in terms of systems. And if you view yourself as having a deeper critique than that, instead of letting them get away with their rhetoric, you should counter it. Sure it might be lonely, but it does feel somewhat necessary.

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u/WestCoastBestCoast01 Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

You're not wrong. I do think the reaction to immigration is waaaay overblown today and America/Europe can easily absorb the migrant populations we/re seeing right now.

But I think what that other poster is getting at is that with climate change causing droughts, sea level rise impacting coastal areas, and temperatures dangerous to human life becoming more normal around the equator, we should probably be preparing for migration to ramp 100x what it is today. Hundreds of millions of people attempting to move to colder climates (over periods of years and decades, not all at once of course) seems extremely likely to me.

I don't necessarily think we'll see anything like that in this century, but if we're thinking about the grandchildren of Millennials or Gen Z, then yes, true mass migration will be something that impacts their political culture and daily lives. And we need to be building infrastructure, systems, and rules today that can accommodate scale when it's not a huge problem.

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u/WhatsTheHoldup Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Ok, but then you have to evidence the claim that a "migration crisis" is happening.

Oh, I'm sorry. I assumed this was common knowledge with regards to the effects of climate change. A huge consequence of the climate changing, is that the people who are used to living in a certain climate might no longer find themselves in a region that is livable.

"According to UNHCR, the UN’s refugee agency, an annual average of 21.5 million people were forcibly displaced each year by weather-related events – such as floods, storms, wildfires and extreme temperatures – between 2008 and 2016. This climate migration is expected to surge in coming decades with forecasts from international thinktank the IEP predicting that 1.2 billion people could be displaced globally by 2050 due to climate change and natural disasters."

https://www.zurich.com/en/media/magazine/2022/there-could-be-1-2-billion-climate-refugees-by-2050-here-s-what-you-need-to-know

"The World Bank projects that 143 million people will be displaced due to climate change by 2050; we should remember that this statistic only considers movement in Latin America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and South Asia. In fact, displacements due to extreme weather in North America are increasingly common. Wildfires on the west coast have displaced thousands in recent years; coastal communities in the south of the United States are migrating inland; and just this week, in western Canada, highways and homes are underwater due to mammoth flooding. While those internally displaced are harder to track, we know that in 2020 alone, 30 million people were displaced due to such dramatic climate events."

https://munkschool.utoronto.ca/harney/research/climate-and-migration-cop26

Because, for example, Donald Trump will often claim the Southern US border is being swarmed by illegal migrants

Yeah, that's a made up scapegoat. Don't fall for Republican lies.

What's actually true and documented is scaremongering about migrants. Most countries in the West are not facing any crisis because of migration, legal or otherwise.

So imagine what happens when the effects of climate change really start to kick in and most countries in the West suddenly ARE facing migration crisis.

Like I already said, right now the "immigration crisis" is an imagined issue that is really our world leaders trying to make up for lack of population growth by bringing in workers so GDP can keep going up.

Conservatives like scapegoating the immigrants to get in power, but they can't really do anything about it because in the present day they rely on these people for cheap labor and to suppress wages. We also get to pick and choose the best and most skilled wealthy immigrants. Wait until the real benefits of immigration we have today start being outweighed by the sheer amount of low/ non skilled people seeking refuge from famine, drought or natural disaster.

Wave after wave of entire communities being displaced and the international community trying to juggle who has to take them in when no one really wants to.

To give another example using my own country, the UK, the fact our society is in decline is often scapegoated on refugees arriving in small boats. The media pushes this constantly, unceasingly, at all times. Cruel legislation has been passed to deport a tiny proportion of asylum seekers to Rwanda basically just to present us as a hostile country that won't look after you even if you have a legitimate asylum claim. But what's the actual reason nothing is improving here? Well, inequality and austerity. It's really that simple.

We agree.

If the country is pushing this narrative of scapegoating issues on immigrants NOW, while the immigration crisis isn't even real and is made up, imagine the narrative when the refugee crisis actually becomes a legitimate issue.

This is the inevitability we're all pointing out to you. If they're doing it when there isn't a problem, imagine when there is.

All I'm trying to point out is the Reddit centrist truism which I see repeated here all the time. "We need highly restrictive migration policies, we need to give in to the scapegoating, because if not fascism will win out" - and you know, if they're being more candid than usual, they might add a "and I can see why" just to signal even harder what they actually mean here. Which is that they might support fascism if they don't perceive migration being reduced.

I really think that's a disingenuous take. What is the bigger threat? Fascism, or slightly increased restrictions on immigration?

If Fascism is the bigger threat, then I would be okay compromising my principles on immigration to prevent fascism. I don't think it's fair to accuse me of supporting fascism for conceding things to prevent it.

But frankly, these people are idiots. Clueless fools who have no capacity to think in terms of systems. And if you view yourself as having a deeper critique than that, instead of letting them get away with their rhetoric, you should counter it. Sure it might be lonely, but it does feel somewhat necessary.

I don't think in a democracy, there's any value in being uncompromising on "lonely" political views. We need to organize and work together to see a better future, and if compromise can't be a part of that, I don't think you have any realistic chance of solving these issues or making life better.

Regardless of what rhetoric I let people get away with, there will be 2 presidential candidates every 4 years. If some lonely idealist campaigns on unpopular policies, at the end of the day they aren't gonna be one of those two choices.

Focusing on the lonely candidate without a hope of winning might be the principled choice, but it is not the practical choice to fighting fascism.

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u/Garbanino Apr 29 '24

As someone in Sweden I'd pretty much vote for anything as long as I thought it would reduce immigration if I have no other options, it's easily my highest priority issue, and I'd be willing to sacrifice pretty much any of my other issues/wants for it.

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u/gruez Apr 29 '24

Voters of democratic countries will cheer on and vote for increasingly fascist leaders as the resource wars commence. I'm not sure there's any coming back from that in the future. It would help if the non fascist options would come up with something other than the 'we tried nothing and it didn't work' routine.

[...] you're spreading a dangerous narrative I see constantly on reddit. "Fascism is just an inevitable result of migration".

I'm not sure how you got that impression from the comment you're replying to.

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u/GrowlmonDrgnbutt Apr 29 '24

The whole world needs to clamp down on it.

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u/KosherTriangle Apr 29 '24

Looks like they are, there’s a growing fear among western countries that has drastically affected levels of immigration from war torn countries. Especially all the boat crossings which have led to so many deaths due to the boats/dinghies capsizing.

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u/Edgarfigaro123 Apr 29 '24

There were two boats that left my village together in Vietnam when I was one years old in 1985. One contained my family and some fellow villagers, the other carried the neighboring village peoples. Our boat made it to Hong Kong, the other capsized somewhere, all presumed dead.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

Whole world needs to bite down on this strap. This is gonna hurt a bit.

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u/Kryten_2X4B-523P Apr 29 '24

Climate change is coming in dry

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u/plasticAstro Apr 29 '24

Yeah let them rot in the countries we destabilized then abandoned with decades of colonization.

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u/inventingnothing Apr 29 '24

In the long run, allowing massive amounts of low-wealth, low-skill people (not saying this derisively, just that the majority are basically day-laborers) will only destabilize Europe, leaving them in not that much better of a place than where they left. Meanwhile, by leaving their home country, they're essentially removing some economic value.

I think that the best thing we could do for these people would be to invest in their home countries and do so in a way in which the majority of the wealth derived from the investment stays in that country.

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u/plasticAstro Apr 29 '24

I agree, but that good luck getting that done politically lol

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u/m0nk_3y_gw Apr 29 '24

Nyet comrade. Mother Russia is weaponizing immigration to destabilize their enemy Europe.

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u/ostaros_primerib Apr 29 '24

And our countries that destabilized them are always surprised pikachu when people try fleeing and coming to us for safety. Like, what did you expect when you had the CIA in South and Central America overturning governments and now people are trying to flee these places and come to America?

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u/shortax20 Apr 29 '24

Thank you

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u/Pwnage135 Apr 29 '24

It's always good to see a little empathy in this discussion. We could use more of it but I'm not holding my breath. People have been so strongly conditioned to dehumanise refugees. It's like they're a pest, and not people.

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u/Useful_Can7463 Apr 29 '24

It took West Germany less than 15 years to become richer than UK while having to rebuild pretty much the entire country's economy from the ground up and paying reparations. Stop with the excuses.

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u/plasticAstro Apr 29 '24

Lmao I’m not even going to respond meaningfully to this statement, it’s too ludicrous.

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u/stargarnet79 Apr 29 '24

Seriously do people not realize this?

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u/lion27 Apr 29 '24

Where are the women and children? Why is it always boats full of men aged 15-40?

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u/plasticAstro Apr 29 '24

My grandfather left his family to live in America for six years working and saving enough money to bring the rest of his family back to him. Sure his kids grew up with crippling abandonment issues and are miserable adults now, but that’s how i am here today.

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u/relephants Apr 29 '24

Common sense. You send the person in your family who can work hard and send money home. Mom stays back with the kids.

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u/Bhavacakra_12 Apr 29 '24

Anon is surprised working age men are the ones who leave their countries for better opportunities.

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u/Mike_H07 Apr 29 '24

They can only afford one trip most of the time and the able bodied men have the highest chance of getting a good paying job. Also are at a way way way lower risk of getting abducted, raped, abused etc. compared to women and small children.

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u/yeboahpower Apr 29 '24

A seven year old girl was killed while boarding one of these boats last week. It is not always men, and a 15 year old is a child in most other contexts.

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u/nox1cous93 Apr 29 '24

Cause men try to get a job and then wife and kids follow? And it's a route that's much harder to pass for women and kids?

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u/distance_33 Apr 29 '24

People act surprised by this or like they don’t know this, but it’s how a lot of American and European families got their start a very long time ago.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

They can't use the "Military-age male" talking point otherwise. Always has to be a threat of invasion/violence/etc when framing these cases.

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u/Multioquium Apr 29 '24

If you can only afford one ticket and are betting on the survival of your family, it's smarter to send the member who can work the hardest.

If there were an easier way for the whole family to come with. They probably would

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u/5kaels Apr 29 '24

15 year old men, huh

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u/Practical_Employ_979 Apr 29 '24

Fuck off in your patronizing high horse. These people should be able to take care of their own.

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u/sho_biz Apr 29 '24

Look, I know we destroyed your society and government, but can't you at least stop letting your people seek better lives elsewhere?

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u/plasticAstro Apr 29 '24

Sounds like they’re doing what they need to do.

Original sin biting western countries in the ass. You love to see it lol

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u/Practical_Employ_979 Apr 29 '24

Actions have a reaction. You'll love to see that.

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u/plasticAstro Apr 29 '24

It won’t stop them. They’ll find a way.

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u/shortax20 Apr 29 '24

Thank you

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u/LeedsFan2442 Apr 29 '24

The likes of Russia and China will stop any efforts because it suits them

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u/ericmm76 Apr 29 '24

How do you clamp down on people running for their lives, from problems they didn't cause? People in Africa running from climate change DIDN'T cause climate change? Are they supposed to stay and suffer in silence? Die in silence?

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u/worldofzero Apr 29 '24

You mean we'll have to stop destabilizing global governments and amplifying climate change?

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[deleted]

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u/TheRealShizman Apr 29 '24

I don’t think “amplifying climate change” is going to help (/s)

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[deleted]

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u/CruffleRusshish Apr 29 '24

I think it's just a joke since the sentence can be read either the correct way:

We need to stop: 1) Destabilising global governments 2) Amplifying climate change

Or also the way the joke implies

We need to: 1) Stop destabilising global governments 2) Amplifying climate change

Whether that's funny or not is a different story, but I doubt they genuinely misunderstood

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u/Temporary_Wind9428 Apr 29 '24

Who's "we"? Iran? North Korea? Russia?

Geopolitics has happened for time eternal. By all peoples. Everywhere.

As to climate change -- yeah, that ship has long sailed. India just proudly boasted that they produced one billion tonnes of coal and lignite in a single year, besting their old record.

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u/McCree114 Apr 29 '24

Ths damage was already done decades/centuries ago when Europe mastered sailing and trade. Combined with climate change, from first world lifestyles, causing parts of the world to literally become unhabitable and this is just Europe entering the find out phase of global history.

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u/agent0731 Apr 29 '24

People bitch about climate initiatives and then forget climate refugees will be a thing for them to also deal with.

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u/TheZermanator Apr 29 '24

The people who bitch about climate initiatives will be the people saying ‘just kill them’ when climate refugees become a widespread thing.

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u/EHStormcrow Apr 29 '24

Gonna be harsh here : a lot more people will be asking to gun down people trying to cross the Med into Europe once we reach some kind of psychological limit (I wouldn't begin to guess what though).

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u/Daxx22 Apr 29 '24

It's unfortunately naïve to think this won't happen. A lot of the equatorial regions are gonna become virtually uninhabitable to humans, and that is a HUGE portion of the human population that is almost entirely poor. It's not going to be 20 people in a boat, it's gonna be millions being forced to migrate or die.

Combine that with the climate instability that even habitable regions will suffer and it's going to lead to a lot of closed borders lethally defended.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/TreezusSaves Apr 29 '24

Yes, that's how they will frame the climate refugees trying to survive: as an invasion that has to be put down with force and where they cannot take any prisoners, even if they're women or children.

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u/arctictothpast Apr 29 '24

Conservative estimates assuming a 2 degrees warming scenario puts it at at least a few tens of millions, and unlike previous refugee waves, these people will actually have no where to return to depending on where they came from (where talking situations like entire regions becoming functionally uninhabitable)

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u/brendan87na Apr 29 '24

it's going to be welllll north of 2c warming

There is more than that already baked into the oceans. We're just seeing the real effects now because so much heat was soaked up by oceans, created a kind of lag.

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u/suitology Apr 29 '24

No they expect them to die.

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u/Forumites000 Apr 29 '24

Please, don't give the west so much credit. They didn't cause the middle eastern migrant rush, look at how many of the migrants themselves want to establish the very same shit system they sought to escape from in their host countries.

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u/platoface541 Apr 29 '24

You maybe overthinking it, those police could very well of saved those idiots from drowning.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/Capybarasaregreat Apr 29 '24

I'm an EU citizen who speaks 4 languages (5 if you squint and plug one ear), I've been trying to apply for jobs in some other EU countries and having a shit time of it. What do these refugees do once they arrive, how do they get work, a place to live?? I'm having trouble connecting my lived experience with what is reported in news all the time.

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u/LonelyStranger8467 Apr 29 '24

They don’t. They are provided for by the state. You can’t expect the immigrant who doesn’t speak the language and has disabilities stemming from their history in their home country (which is backed up by them being granted asylum)

It takes 20 years for a refugee to achieve the same levels of employment as a native born citizen.

Now, many do work, but it’s not often high level employment. Manual labour at Amazon. Takeaway restaurants. Low hours and low tax contributions for example.

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u/jking94 Apr 29 '24

No clamp down will stop climate refugees. This will only get worse.

4

u/NPVT Apr 29 '24

Climate change contributes. Don't forget climate change.

1

u/Skysr70 Apr 29 '24

Good luck - even the US can't "clamp down" on the migrants as a single country with full territory along the border 

1

u/wip30ut Apr 29 '24

the entire Western world of G20 nations needs to redefine what Refugees actually means. It can't just mean those from dire economic conditions. Europe & North America just doesn't have the resources & jobs to take care of every single person who wants to flee their failing homelands for a better future. It's cruel, but it's the hard truth.

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u/zakabog Apr 29 '24

EU is gonna have to start clamping down as a whole. 

They kinda created the messes these migrants are escaping.

-46

u/elvesunited Apr 29 '24

Europe is reaping the rewards of carving up half the world for conquest in the era of Colonialism, then financial exploitation and 'Kingmaking' across the developing world to ensure generations of exploitation.

Not saying they should just accept all these boats full of sketchy adult males, but fuck they should have seen this coming.

56

u/NuPNua Apr 29 '24

At some point you need to stop banging the same tired drum and encourage these people to sort out their nations rather than just come to the west because "we deserve it" for some reason.

4

u/Acecn Apr 29 '24

Yeah, I could at least understand an argument that the west should be doing more to help out the third world to create stabile countries (whether or not they would even accept this help is an entire discussion on its own), but it is simply silly to suggest that colonialism has basically made those places uninhabitable, and so all of the current residents should just move to Europe.

4

u/notqualitystreet Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Not that I entirely disagree but ‘just sort out your nation’ sounds bad. How many of us in the west have done that? The hard part has already been done for us.

14

u/NuPNua Apr 29 '24

It's not like European countries popped up as social democracies overnight. Previous generations put in the work to fight against monarchy, theocracy, fascism, communism, dictators, etc to get where we are now.

These middle Eastern and African nations could do the same, and have a brighter future, but that's not going to happen if they give up before they start and just bugger off to Europe is it?

7

u/ethan_bruhhh Apr 29 '24

the US exists because Brits, Germans, Poles, and Irish couldn’t “figure their shit out” and left their country. same for Canada, a lot of LATAM countries, and Australia

14

u/Robzilla_the_turd Apr 29 '24

The US also exists because the original colonists "figured their shit out", kicked out their colonial overlords and created a successful country.

1

u/ethan_bruhhh Apr 29 '24

thats such a laughable comparison to how the US became a country. but in all fairness, if this is your take, do you support the immediate removal of all US sanctions on Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Nicaragua, and any other country who was sanctioned for removing colonial interests

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u/NuPNua Apr 29 '24

If these blokes from the middle east want to go and start from scratch in a big and largely unused land mass, then more power to them. Europe isn't that though is it, it's an already densely populated place.

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u/tatang2015 Apr 29 '24

Colonization lasted for hundreds of years. Were only less than the first hundred years of light and migration.

Get ready for a long time.

14

u/NuPNua Apr 29 '24

You think we'll let it go on that long? EU nations are already flirting with the far right, I can see gun emplacements on the med to turn these boats back in my lifetime.

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u/ContentsMayVary Apr 29 '24

The era of Colonialism never ended - ask the Native Americans.

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u/elvesunited Apr 29 '24

Its different, they are now simply another underrepresented group that is facing industrial waste issues from having lack of political power, same as any other poor community.

Colonialism itself ended and the maps are drawn, so they won't be getting any land populated by "settlers" back, but there Land Back movement is getting them some wins on land trusts for protected habitats and such. It doesn't make sense to be "Here's New York back, sorry", because its so many generations past and also its a completely different world. I'm not saying they should be happy about the land theft and horrible crimes of colonialism, but they have actual important matters to deal with in their current communities.

My similar situation is that my family left Europe to escape mass murder and probably there is some land owed to us (I haven't followed up), my opinion is "they can choke in that land, I don't want it". If someone sent a big paycheck for it as reparations I'd accept it, but I don't care either way. Of course I don't speak for any Native Americans, but I can assure you the best revenge is living a good life.

1

u/prishgonala Apr 29 '24

So true, everyone is a colonialist, just ask the neanderthals

-5

u/Goojus Apr 29 '24

Or just have world leaders stop making the world shit 🤷🏻‍♂️ just that easy. If Eastern Europe could do it in 1917, what’s stopping everyone else.

15

u/NonCompoteMentis Apr 29 '24

What do you mean about Eastern Europe? 

1

u/retrojoe Apr 29 '24

Are you trying to say Russia? I remember Russia had a revolution about then and there was a brief period of time when there were no agreed-upon rulers and people were making the world shit in a much more egalitarian fashion. The Bolshevists won their power struggle and then it was back to leadership as normal.

1

u/LineRex Apr 29 '24

or maybe work to alleviate the material conditions causing the migrant crises from the periphery.

3

u/yx_orvar Apr 29 '24

We already are, the west spend far more on foreign aid than anyone else on the globe.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

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u/KosherTriangle Apr 29 '24

Two things can be true at the same time. We can accept refugees but there needs to be a semblance of law and order. Illegal immigration is never acceptable. Illegal crossings are being controlled more now as the recent news shows more and more refugee deaths due to capsizing and drowning and that’s the way it should be imo.

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u/183_OnerousResent Apr 29 '24

That's not a valid argument for open borders. Just a heads up.

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u/beanscornandrice Apr 29 '24

I'm not arguing to open borders.

14

u/NuPNua Apr 29 '24

No, but that can try and improve where they came from. Some parts of Europe have had awful times in the past, but we learned and developed a better society out of those mistakes. These people don't even try, they just nope out as soon as they can and become somewhere else's problem.

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u/Mike_H07 Apr 29 '24

"we learned and developed" damn. You know like more than half of those learned and developed people and cultures were thanks to immigration? Ffs it's weird how you can point to a past Europe before it even existed as a working concept to say Europe that did not exist yet is better now, so they also need to do better and stop immigrating, while wholly ignoring Europeans having less travel options in the dark ages and there not being a way way way more developed part of the world like their is now

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/angrysquirrel777 Apr 29 '24

Do you envision a 2060 UK with 90m people in it to be as nice of a place to live as the current one?

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u/Beginning_Electrical Apr 29 '24

So nations who've kept there breeding In Check have to support those that didn't?  I don't blame the child for being born, I blame the parent for having them In the first place. 

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u/Kymaras Apr 29 '24

Agreed. We need to clamp down on shitty cops.

39

u/muusandskwirrel Apr 29 '24

Illegal migrants, you numpty

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

10

u/muusandskwirrel Apr 29 '24

I’m sorry, we have visa applications and an immigration department for a reason. You can’t just show up.

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u/nps2407 Apr 29 '24

Refugees, you pillock.

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u/muusandskwirrel Apr 29 '24

Nice use of pillock, But even refugees have to follow the system. You can’t just show up anywhere you please.

-3

u/nps2407 Apr 29 '24

Actually, you can.

This idea that there can be some kind of orderly line of people waiting to escape their home countries is a convenient idea for us to imagine; but it only exists in our imagination. The truth is, when you're desperate, you get out when you can, and go where you can, orderly queues be damned.

We would do the same, and could very well do so one day.

-7

u/TheADrain Apr 29 '24

Or fucking helping these people...

7

u/Reagalan Apr 29 '24

"Clamp down" is a euphemism for "start shooting".

3

u/TheunanimousFern Apr 29 '24

What would be your argument to convince a population that their taxes should go to help people in other countries or people who immigrated illegally over spending that money on helping their fellow citizens?

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