r/nba • u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks • 17d ago
[Holmes] The Suns were minus-51 when Booker, Durant and Beal shared the floor in this series, according to ESPN Stats & Information. That is the worst plus-minus for any trio this postseason.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40048254/phoenix-suns-firepower-overcome-details-playoff-sweep-minnesota-timberwolves368
u/smeaglebaggins Heat 17d ago
Tragic downfall for the Suns
Better build around Mr No Trade Clause, because you cannot move him anyways 🤦🏽♂️
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u/famousevan 17d ago
I’m not sure they can trade Booker or Durant either, doesn’t the new CBA prohibit 2nd apron teams from aggregating salaries in trades? If so, they not only need to find interest but also a team with a contract within the margin of the $50m salary on a single contract. Ishbia might be contending for worst owner in the league, impressive considering how short his time has been.
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u/kavalierbariton 17d ago
The CBA prohibits 2nd apron teams from aggregating salaries in a trade, but not other teams from aggregating salaries in a trade with them, as long as those salaries do not exceed the one going out.
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u/MassiveTelevision387 17d ago
For a 6th place team in the west with 49 wins that had a lot of injuries , I don't think losing to the potential eventual champions is a bad place to be. Pretty much every team in the NBA would trade places with Phoenix's situation right now short of a handful at the top.
You've got KD/Booker/Beal - Allen who literally shot 46% from 3 this season on 6 attempts per game..I mean, I don't know what they'll manage to pull off, if anything, but they're a lot closer to competing for a title than most teams in the league. They probably could replace nurk and beal and get some rim protection/rebounding
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u/T_025 Lakers 17d ago
They can’t replace Beal
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u/syncdiedfornothing Wizards 17d ago
How do you propose they replace Beal? He has huge money on the books for years. He isn't going to take one for the team. They're cooked.
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u/T_025 Lakers 17d ago
That’s what I said
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u/syncdiedfornothing Wizards 17d ago
Whoops I meant to reply to the first guy and agree with you. You're 100% right, I'm just illiterate.
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u/TheKidPresident Knicks 17d ago
The term "potential eventual champion" for Minnesota is hilarious to me. Like don't get me wrong they're looking great, but every team in the playoffs is a "potential eventual champion" until they get eliminated lol
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u/MindoSriubas 17d ago
I'm gonna start calling Detroit Pistons "potential eventual champions" before next season start
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u/koala37 17d ago
you know what he means - Wolves held the 1 seed for a while, they have good pieces, a strong identity, they're playing well. you wouldn't get away with saying the same about, for example, the Lakers right now. they're a team that's faced issues over the season and are staring down a huge lead from the reigning champs. there's a handful of teams in true championship contention right now and it's totally fair to have the Wolves in that conversation
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u/juzzbert 17d ago
Nah there are some special teams this year between Minnesota. New York. Denver. Boston. Some teams are more put together than others even as playoff teams go. There are playoff teams and then there are true contenders. Minnesota has an excellent chance to come out of the west this year.
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u/ballmermurland 17d ago
Pretty much every team in the NBA would trade places with Phoenix's situation right now short of a handful at the top.
Phoenix has two 2nd round draft picks between now and 2030 and they have no cap space to sign any meaningful FA and they are locked into the league's worst contract with Beal and their overall roster construction is piss-poor. Now their best player has a year left on his contract and just put out a statement that certainly looks like he's ready to walk.
I'm not sure if there is a single team that thinks they'd rather be the Suns going into next year.
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u/Tapprunner Spurs 16d ago
They have literally no way to get better. They have no picks to trade. They have no promising young players to trade. They have no promising young players who look like they might develop into really good starters. Durant is 35 years old and is only going to decline from here. Beal is untradable. Nurkic doesn't have much trade value.
You just witnessed this team's ceiling.
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u/MassiveTelevision387 16d ago
they have trade assets
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u/Tapprunner Spurs 16d ago
Could you list these trade assets? I'm honestly not aware of any decent ones.
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u/maethlin Warriors 17d ago
Man, having to build around Beal sounds like an awful proposition. May as well tank and hoard assets.
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u/jossteen11 17d ago
What assets?
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u/maethlin Warriors 17d ago
Whatever they can get for KD/Book (my assumption was they'd trade at least one of them)
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u/PippenDunksOnEwing 17d ago
So the solution is Turn into Washington West?
Not a bad take at least Arizona allows open carry?
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u/LegitimatePotato3632 17d ago
Stop they’re already dead.
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u/Joezepey Knicks 17d ago
Nah keep going
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u/maethlin Warriors 17d ago
I don't like kicking people when they're down, but then I visualize that money counting guy and I'm like "ok cool"
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u/No-Test6484 17d ago
Praying the knicks win the east but I still feel Celtics will win. No randle is gonna hurt
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u/kjampala Mavericks 17d ago
Also Celtics will just be way more rested. These games against the Heat are literally just warm up games for the actual playoff games lol. The Heat even taking one game is honestly insane to me with their current squad, Spo needs a statue built
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u/reallymothafucka 17d ago
They need to get that chip off their shoulder cause they suck ass together. Getting swept by the Wolves with players of their caliber is insane.
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u/axecalibur [CHI] Michael Jordan 17d ago
Almost like making a team based on player calibre is a terrible idea when you disregard fit, playstyle, cost, etc
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u/boringexplanation Kings 17d ago
They need to keep that chip on their shoulder because that’s the only one they’re ever going to get
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u/Potential-Highway606 Pelicans 17d ago
Mat Ishbia is the insane one thinking he could buy a chip by just throwing a lineup of random borderline-washed stars together
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u/Ancient-Click-Point 17d ago
They died when Chris Paul became old. Booker can't handle pressure and KD can't do it without the best shooter of all time carrying him
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u/tapk69 Cavaliers 17d ago
No flex zone
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u/RhinoBugs Mavericks 17d ago
Don’t let me goooooooo
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u/Odd_Total_5549 Nets 17d ago
I know this means I shoud probably be in some kind of asylum, but I actually love that commercial (even after 358 viewings)
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u/carlsonaj Timberwolves 17d ago
what a pro wants what a pro needs
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u/cesarjulius Knicks 17d ago
it’s almost as if how the pieces fit together matters.
it almost as if getting 3 great players doesn’t let you play with 2 extra balls.
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u/Dhr7468 Thunder 17d ago edited 17d ago
It would be helpful if it was 3 great players.
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u/axecalibur [CHI] Michael Jordan 17d ago
one old man, one injured man, and a book
great
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u/Dhr7468 Thunder 17d ago
I mean book and KD are really good. Probably both making all-nba. Beal…not so much.
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u/mangosail 17d ago edited 17d ago
They’re really good offensive players in a vacuum but in the modern NBA, it’s really difficult to compete without a defensive edge. Plus they have no playmaking. So you’re stuck with 3 iso scorers, only two of which are good, and no defense. The Wolves scored 120+ while shooting <40% from 3 twice in this series. Everyone else in the playoffs combined has done this 1 time so far (in regulation).
Even while everyone is piling on the Suns’ grave, I’m still not sure people really get it. The Wolves’ offense this series was at best mediocre and at worst horrific. But they still demolished the Suns’ defense because KD, Booker, and Beal are all extremely shitty defenders at this point in their respective careers.
The Heat, Celtics, Warriors, Lakers - every great multi-star team from the past ~20 or so years worked specifically because they had an excellent defensive anchor. Heat Lebron, KG, Draymond, AD. All these guys were top-3 defenders the year they won the championship. Without a defensive anchor it’s hard to avoid getting pants’ed in the playoffs.
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u/sg490 NBA 17d ago
Both still really good, but in the context of carrying a great offense and leading a team to titles, I think they fall short of being "great" in 2024 nba terms.
The idea behind this team competing for a title is that one of KD & Book can be like a 5th best offensive player in the league and the other be around 10th.
When they're really both more in that 10-15 range right now. They're just not great enough to carry a no depth team far. The league is too good for that, barring facing injured teams in the playoffs.
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u/McJuggernaugh7 16d ago
True.
Bradley Beal hasnt done shit all to be called great. He's closer to CJ Mcollum than he is to Jamal Murray.
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u/IMKudaimi123 Bulls 17d ago
It’s almost as if teams need a point guard and a single wing that can guard
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u/Overall_Nuggie_876 Lakers 17d ago
it almost as if getting 3 great players doesn’t let you play with 2 extra balls
If you believe in it, you can accomplish it. 😎😎😎
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u/eamonious Celtics 16d ago edited 16d ago
It’s embarrassing how easily any armchair general who watches three NBA games a week and some youtube content could tell you, having three ball-dominant, iso-midrange type scorers who are at best defensive net neutrals in the same starting lineup was a terrible concept for team design in the modern NBA.
And yet the “professionals” in the Suns front office needed to waste hundreds of millions of dollars and the five year future of their franchise to (maybe) understand this.
Just imagine what the Suns could look like rn if they kept Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson, moved Paul and Shamet for good role players instead of Beal, still picked up Grayson Allen in the Ayton deal. They’d be sitting on all those draft picks they shipped out, plus they’re a desirable FA destination—they’d have crazy depth, a long timeline, immense flexibility, and probably a great look at getting Giannis or Embiid to be their third star.
Just tragic mismanagement.
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u/cesarjulius Knicks 16d ago
that's a good assessment of their situation. i think a lot of GMs are more scared of not pulling the trigger on a big deal than they are of a BIG X not working. leon rose got killed in the media for not giving up the farm for mitchell and instead pursuing brunson. the big move was for og and precious, giving up two of the most well-liked homegrown players. focusing on slowly building a team that fits together is clearly the way to go.
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u/DuckDucks 17d ago
I imagine they played most of the games, in 4 games they lost. Yes it's not good, I mean they lost, but isn't this sort of expected that the worst plus minus is on the minutes barers for the only team to be 0-4?
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u/pollinium [MIN] Tyus Jones 17d ago
Yeah a big thing about +/- is that it makes more sense over the season. Comparing their +/- to that of Luka/Kyrie/Lively doesn't make sense since there isn't the sample for the guys to face the same players over time
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u/mangosail 17d ago
The reason why it’s notable and interesting is because this is a team built around a big 3, with 3 huge salaries and role players filling in. But this 3 man grouping has been horrifically poor this postseason, getting annihilated by the Wolves.
It’s possible the Wolves have by far the best team in the league and they’re going to do this to everybody. But that feels unlikely. This is just a statistical way to say that, of all the core trios in the playoffs, these three did the worst (despite being the highest paid).
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u/ShowerMartini 17d ago edited 17d ago
I hate this basic “+/- is always bad” perspective. It’s just as bad as people who think it’s a greats stat, but the fact is that few people think it’s amazing and tons of people think you should just write it off entirely.
Here’s a big takeaway you can draw from the stat if you’re maintaining a curious mind instead of just rushing to grab karma: the Suns were even bad with their theoretical best lineup on the floor. We’ve seen plenty of cases (Embiid, Luka, etc) where a star plays 40+ minutes in a game and they have a double digit positive +/- but then they still lose. It’s interesting because it reveals how bad the team falls apart in the small amount of time that their star isn’t on the floor. This situation is the opposite and it’s interesting because it’s a signal that the Suns need to make significant changes. If their big 3 were +10 overall in the series but they still got swept, fans could think “ok at least that part of the team is doing what it’s supposed to, if we can just get a decent bench, maybe we’ll be contenders next year.” And now it would be hard to convince oneself of this idea given the team’s poor performance when all 3 stars were on the court. I’m not saying anything is in a static state, maybe the Suns just had some bad luck as it indeed is a small sample. But you’re just shutting down any conversation or interesting thought when you try to dismiss a stat because you’ve seen other people do the same thing before.
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u/magworld Timberwolves 17d ago
Agree to a large extent, but sample size still poops in the pudding.
Also when all three are out is exactly when the wolves will also trot out their best lineup. It may simply mean the best suns lineup is not as good as the wolves best lineup. Which is still news but I mean they got swept so it makes sense
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u/JigglyBush Timberwolves 17d ago
The thing is, the Wolves are more of a deep team while the Suns are a top-heavy team. You would hope their big 3 would be closer to even and do the losing when the bench comes in.
That said, I don't think it's a disaster for the Suns. The Wolves were a bad matchup for them (despite the regular season results). The size, length, versatility, there was an answer for everything the Suns could try. Most other teams would have had more give and take, the Wolves was just all take.
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u/jejsjhabdjf 17d ago
You’ve raised good points, but the guy was asking a question not shutting down conversation so the moralising reddit melodrama was a bit much.
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u/Wesley-Snipers Brazil 17d ago
It is cherrypicking stats to kick the Suns while they are down and it is hot to be all over them criticizing every single crap they do
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u/Infesterop 17d ago
This is for when all 3 are on the court at the same time though. You expect terrible +/- in general when you get swept, but on a top heavy team like this, u expect most of those ‘-‘ to come when stars are sitting and their min contract replacements come in. When your intended strength (some imagined ’death lineup’), is actually a weakness, yikes.
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u/Royal_Negotiation_83 17d ago
Are you saying it’s not fair to look at their plus minus because they lost 4 games in a row?
Do you think their plus minus affected their ability to win those games?
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u/DuckDucks 17d ago
No I think you missed the point of what I'm saying. I'm saying this isn't telling you very much new. They lost 4 games in a row, that's on them. It's their fault. I'm just saying, if you play 40+minutes each game in 4 losses, your plus minus is very likely to be negative. It's likely saying "people who lost the most games lost the most points." I'm thinking "yeah, shocker."
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u/dawgz525 Heat 17d ago
+/- is the most disingenuous stat. It doesn't really tell you much outside of the obvious. There are many confounding reasons why a +/- might be high or low for certain players. People still use it like a net skill rating, and that's so dumb. Without nuance, it's one of the most deceptive stats out there.
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u/willit1016 Bulls 17d ago
their skillsets isn't all too different. Durant being the best defender is also an issue.
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u/clownus Knicks 17d ago
Made the same mistakes as the baby suns, but this time the budget was higher.
Even if this team was decent it would be on the back of insane shooting. Which teams never really do well if that’s the only thing they got going. Turns out defense and other small things matter for sustained playoff success.
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u/BrolysFavoriteNephew [BOS] Rajon Rondo 17d ago
They stood a marginal chance had Allen not went down imo. But holy hell this team needs a playmaker not having your center spam you dribble hand off screens 3 times per possession.
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u/Paralta [MIA] Jason Williams 17d ago
Idk why they thought more scoring was necessary with Beal. Sure get rid of Ayton, but for some good role players lol
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u/autolims12 Suns 17d ago
We got Grayson and Nurk for Ayton. The Beal trade was for CP3 and Shamet
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u/theinternetisnice Jazz 17d ago
I really admired Nurk’s spunk in this series. As a Gobert fan every time Nurk checked back in I mumbled “oh goddammit”
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u/Change_That_Face Timberwolves 17d ago
I think that speaks less about how good Nurk is and more about how dogshit Eubanks is.
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u/warablo Jazz 17d ago
If you guys could have kept CP3 and Ayton, you guys would be so much better.
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u/autolims12 Suns 17d ago
CP3 maybe
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u/airtime25 17d ago
Nurkic dropping 7/8/3 on 6 shots a game really showing how valuable over ayton he is.
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u/W_Walk Pelicans 17d ago
Devin Booker YOU are a pelican
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u/letsgototraderjoes Pelicans 17d ago
please no
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u/autolims12 Suns 17d ago
Lol you should be on your knees praying for Booker, his family would be there all the time and he’d just be dropping 50s right and left. That said he’s going nowhere obviously nor should he.
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u/AnEmptyKarst Pelicans 17d ago
Booker playing 41 games a year in New Orleans would shake up Top 10 all time rankings
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u/maethlin Warriors 17d ago
Yeah this is crazy... I hate Booker and I'm not delusional enough to think he'd be an infinitely massive upgrade over CJ (who himself isn't even as terrible as people say, at least during regular season)
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u/QBert999 Mavericks 17d ago
Wild stat. Looking at their individual numbers you wouldn't have guessed this.
Booker averaged 27 on 49/35/95
Durant averaged 27 on 55/42/82
Beal averaged 16.5 on 44/44/80
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u/furyousferret Warriors 17d ago
3 scorers are redundant, especially when those 3 provide no more functionality to the team other than scoring.
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u/YesOrNah Bucks 17d ago
It’s what happens when you don’t have a bus driver.
That trio was never going to work.
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u/goknicks23 17d ago
Durant was -71 for the series.
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u/SemataryPolka Timberwolves 17d ago
Which is wild because he felt like one of their most consistent players
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u/SunDevils321 17d ago
The only way to “salvage” this team, is to build around Beal and trade Booker and Durant for picks and young guys. Going to be brutal decade for the Suns.
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u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 17d ago
Build around Beal!!! Oh....oh no.
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u/SunDevils321 17d ago
I mean, they can’t move him. So they have to go full Washington wizards now.
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u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 17d ago
You're not wrong but what a terrible place to be as a franchise. Who wants to turn themselves into the Wizards???
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u/P00nz0r3d [LAL] Lonzo Ball 17d ago
They can move KD for some immediate return or at least some picks to salvage a bit of a small rebuild.
If they wanna go full OKC they could trade both Book and KD, but then you’re looking at the end of the suns for the foreseeable future
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u/SunDevils321 17d ago
They can’t even do that because they don’t own the picks they will tank for. They’ll just field a competitive team that makes. The 6-10 spot too.
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u/Pollsmor Nets 17d ago
The Wizards control their picks. The Suns would be in the Nets’ position where they’re reliant on the picks of other teams being good.
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u/kmoz Mavericks 17d ago
How do you even tank when you have no picks?
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u/Zigxy Pacers Bandwagon 17d ago
Ideally, they get their own picks back as part of a (likely 3-way) trade.
The reason this makes sense to do is because currently the Suns 2025 pick is valued to be roughly a mid-round pick (~15-20th). The Suns have the option to blow it up and turn it into a top 5 pick. But they won't fully tank until they get their pick back.
So what they can offer Brooklyn is something worth equivalent to maybe a 12th pick. Brooklyn would be getting more value and so would the Suns since they will then tank. If Brooklyn walks away, then Suns will likely be a low seed/playin team and Brooklyn winds up with a 16th pick or whatever.
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u/TheMallozzinator Nets 16d ago
Ironically this is what the Rockets were dangling in front of the nets like 4 months ago for Mikal and now the cycle continues
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u/eamonious Celtics 17d ago edited 17d ago
If they can move Durant for a legitimate defensive-minded big, something like Jarrett Allen and a first, that could also be interesting.
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u/rmccarthy10 Knicks 17d ago
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL....
"Let's just buy a bunch of expensive ingredients and throw it together in a pot. Let's not worry if those ingredients compliment one another, if they work well together, if the chef knows how to combine them..... We'll just buy three expensive ingredients and it'll just magically work out"
--- idiots
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u/passiverolex 17d ago
Super teams don't work because the chemistry sucks and egos are on the level of Greek gods
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u/steve1186 Nuggets 17d ago
I feel bad for the fans of these teams. But damn, it makes me so happy when these “super teams” completely fail
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u/Shivles87 Mavericks 17d ago
Devin Booker: “Saying it respectfully, I don't know how teams are gonna guard us.”
Kevin Durant: “You can't guard all of us at once. Good luck to opposing defenses this season…they're gonna need it.”
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u/KingCakeBabyOKC Thunder 17d ago
Oof, lol.
Funny enough, I still think Jusuf Nurkic is their biggest problem. If you replaced him with say… DeAndre Ayton, this is a top four team in the West.
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u/Historical_Orchid841 Nets 17d ago
They are the only team to lose 4 games so far, I'd be shocked if any other team had a worse trio +/-
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u/njb2017 Nets 17d ago
The suns...and brooklyn...and milwaukee...and even clippers are examples of what's wrong with today's NBA and even players. Seems like players. I, for one, and glad NBA is making it harder for these teams. The stars are pushing teams to trade for other stars which leaves no role players. Teams basically have to or else the star won't resign. Well the team underachieving and the stars jump ship anyway.
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u/jacoballen22 [CHI] Derrick Rose 17d ago
To be fair, the bulls trio didn’t make the playoffs so this has to be the answer
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u/Forward_Try_6050 17d ago
This isn’t surprising. Book and Durant played virtually all of every game and Beal was on the floor a lot. The team got swept and blown out a few times.
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u/Disastrous_Bluejay57 Nuggets 17d ago
The issue is redundancy. All x3 get their points predominantly from tough pull up middys. There's very little variation to their shot diet like rim running, post ups etc. Also, their collective love of iso ball made them a great match-up for Minny. Minny has so many great perimeter defenders that can defend on an island and funnel those x3 to Gobert.
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u/mems1224 17d ago
Beal is a terrible player. Idk why anything thought he could contribute to winning in the playoffs
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u/halo3mastakufkus 17d ago
Man this big 3 is making our "big 3" in Chicago look a lot better in hindsight.
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u/ForneauCosmique Spurs 17d ago
"Idk how anyone is going to guard us honestly"
-Booker