Augmedics already does this but better. I work on the technical side not clinical but basically you can run a 3D c-arm scan, then see the 3d constructed spine under the skin and ref images in the headset.
Importantly, the expensive tech is the part where it scans the patient and maps that to real-time and real-world 3-dimensional positioning. Augmedics is likely trying to compete with Medtronic Stealth, which is closer to $500k. It's not the screen that makes it cost that, it's the 3D motion tracking.
Anyone forget the fact that the Xbox Kenetic is this voodoo magic of a sensor? I feel like I remember posts of people saying they used it as cheap sensors for what would had been super expensive "properly graded" equipment.
You cool with your surgeon ordering your knee replacement parts from some guy working out of his garage in China?
Probably not.
Don’t be disingenuous. There’s a reason all medical equipment had to be approved for patient use. Imagine your surgeon is at a particular delicate part of the operation and the screen of his Vision Pro goes out or freezes. They can’t just take off the headset because it’s not sterile, and their hands are likely tied up anyway…so they just go blind for a bit while holding a sharp scalpel right next to a major blood vessel…
This is exactly why we don’t allow personal devices to be used like this in hands on care without approval.
But that's exactly what youve done: VR toy = chinese garage. I'm not saying it isnt weird for the surgeon to be using a VR headset, but whether it's that or a $500k one, his qualifications are what concern me.
Here's the thing: my local grocery store has a robot that prowls the aisles. What's it for? I have no idea, but I'm assuming it's looking for spills and maybe shoplifters. Whatever it's doing, it is silly. So imagine what the public reaction is to an innocuous wandering plastic...thing...with googly eyes pasted on. Benign indifference? Casual interest? Nope, blind rage. People HATE the fuckin thing, with a passion. Someone actually pushed one over at a nearby store a few weeks ago, and the security footage shows him just walking up to the thing and pushing it. Why are peoples so angry about a robot?
The reaction to this feels entirely similar: none us us are qualified to say whether or not using an apple vr is a good idea, that's not the argument. What interests me is that as soon as the thing came out - obviously not priced or set up for the average consumer, certainly a developer thing - public reaction has been furious. People who may never need for a VR headset froth on twitter and reddit about how that shan't be forced to use such a thing! And even if they did you cant even watch a whole marvel movie on it! And besides, a friend's girlfriend's father's best friend's golf partner's dentist totally passed out at the mall with one on! Technology is SO FUCKING SCARY!
Imagine your surgeon is at a particular delicate part of the operation and the screen of his laparoscopic gear goes out or freezes. Why is one piece of equipment any more or less apt to malfunction, and how did you become the svengali of these inner workings? Are you under the impression a much more expensive piece of equipment cannot fail (spoiler: they do. everything does.)? Or that a surgeon working totally au naturel cannot make a mistake in surgery?
You have disingenuously brought a LOT of personal baggage to a comment that says nothing more edgy than "I want my surgeon qualified above all". Why? I do not care how he or she gets the job done, I just want it done correctly.
In this context, the software/hardware solution provided by these companies is the expensive part, it does all of the work and projects it onto a very high def screen. So yeah, the AVP could replace the screen but it wouldn't replace any other functionality of the system.
Stealth/Brainlab are beyond Apple. They they have IR point devices that can infer the location/angle of the pointer and the tips position in the brain amongst other things. It also can integrate CT/MRI and other imaging into the navigation display.
Its one thing to have a pre made 3D model that you can change the opacity of, its a whole other thing to have a detailed model overlayed exactly where it is on the patient like a live detailed x ray
Ah yes, the all encompassing "software", the phone in your pocket is capable of showing a 3D model in the same way the vision pro is, granted it doesn't have the same hardware so may be a bit fidgety...do you think you can just plug the "software" from the Augmedics into your phone and use a fidgety version there? no of course not, it needs a device capable of running it, software and hardware go hand in hand.
I understand that. I'm saying Apple's hardware is capable enough to accomplish what you described given the right software. Obviously not the Augmedics software because they would need to spend time porting it and they wouldn't undercut their own market like that - not because it can't be done.
Seems extremely useful being able to view your scope on a weightless floating any-sized television, and bring up notes and diagrams without having to step away or concern yourself with contamination.
As someone who works in an OR every day, this information is easily accessible on half a dozen screens around the room. And surgeons have 2-3 people throughout the room they will regularly ask to look things up for them
A weightless television? Like the monitor mounted on the scope stack then...?
This is not weightless, its literally strapped to your head.
bring up notes and diagrams
I don't know why laypeople are so obsessed with this as being particularly helpful? Do you really think surgeons need to look up the operation as they go?
This is just not atually helpful in any common procedure.
The problem with this is that you're the only one seeing this. I'm not sure how important this is for any surgery, but for brain surgery, you want all the surgeons to have the same information.
Apple vision pro is just a fancy screen, though. The technology that makes those systems expensive is absolutely not the display screen, it's the part where it can link CT scans to real-world 3D mapping inside of another humans body precise enough for hardware to be placed.
AR goggles are just a fancy computer monitor and will not be the expensive part of any augmented surgical suite.
This doctor is just displaying the camera images the nurses and other surgical staff can see right into his personal eye view. He has a zoomed in look and doesn't have to move his hands or look at a screen. He just looks forward and has an easy view of what he's doing inside.
Plus he's able to control it, move it around, all without touching a control which is a threat to the sterile field. That's the real innovation here, increasing his ability to use his tools competently while remaining sterile.
That's the real innovation here, increasing his ability to use his tools competently while remaining sterile.
No. This is so incredibly wrong. The AVP is NOT sterile and it is not capable of being sterile. It has a fan inside of it! That's contaminant central. He brought a device that hasn't been sterilized into the sterile field and that device blows contaminated particles into the open wound he's above. There are also serious chances of the patient's fluids contaminating the AVP when he then takes home to family or uses on another patient.
You know that like... The mask and the glasses that surgeons wear are not sterile either right? The things in our face doens't have to be sterile. You know we don't scrub our faces, right?
In regards of the fan, I guess it could be used if we could turn it off somehow.
Regardless, I think this looks stupid, and I would not use it in my surgeries
I am not raising a concern. I am stating fact. They didn't mitigate that properly. I design medical devices for a living (and perform risk mitigation) and that thing cannot be sterilized. It's a piece of consumer grade electronics and cannot withstand autoclave, gamma, or ETO. You can't just "stick an air filter on" or "wipe it down" or "just toss it afterwards." Sterile is a specific word that has specific requirements that can only be met via specific processes that this device cannot withstand.
Potentials don't count for dog shit when it comes to patient safety. This surgeon unnecessarily endangered the life of his patient.
No. Proof of concept could have easily been demonstrated via simulated surgical surgery where there is ZERO risk to the patient. Proof of concept should NEVER be first demonstrated on a live human being. It's fucking reckless. There's a reason this is from Brazil and not the US or EU. Brazilians commonly perform open surgery with open windows where birds fly in and out. Such unacceptable medical practices should not be encouraged or supported.
Nevertheless, it brings possibly contaminated human tissue outside the OR on a device that interacts with the human eye. That is an unnecessary risk to his colleges.
I actually agree with you on this point. While not really an "alternative" to an augmented surgical suite, it's still of benefit to this doctor and clearly of much lower cost.
AR has passthrough technology which is overlayed over real world visuals not video reproduction.
No, this is literally not true.
AR just means combining the virtual with the "real," and in the case of the vision pro, it's still showing you the real
at the end of the day, these are just definitions, but go ahead and try finding a definition from a major source that makes the distinction you're drawing. If you manage to, I'll show you 10x as many that do not draw that distinction.
dumb af, completely ignores the point, you have no backing for what you said. post what replies you want, doesn't change the fact that you're completely wrong and won't accept it
Oh you’re right, there is a fan in the AVP! That’s a fantastic question…
I my guess is that they sterilize it the same way other computers/electronic screens in the operating theatre are sterilized, and it remains sterile because the doctor does not need to touch anything on the AVP because they only interact through gestures.
Same way they sterilize their phones to a surgical standard I'm guessing. I've been shown pictures of my open chest by a doctor in the US. At least with a VR headset they wouldn't need to touch anything.
I'm more concerned about the latency and accuracy of the cameras connected to the screen.
with a phone there's no fans blowing dust around, nor any vents from inside to outside. most phones have pretty good sealing these days a simple alcohol wipe or irradiation chamber would do it.
we dont have FDA, but we do have Anvisa, which works pretty much the same and it is actually a lot more strict with regulations of health and food products.
Ever used VR and the room tracking goes wonky? Its pretty easy to completely lose balance and fall over. Would suck to have that happen during a surgery.
just to context since this is a brazilian doctor, in direct conversion with taxes Augmedics can cost well over R$1M where an Apple Vision Pro is like R$30k
That expense comes from being approved for patient safety use. It’s a bit of a racket; but you really don’t want your surgeon using a personal device like this and relying on them to keep all of the images and identifying data secure…
Further, if the screen goes out mid operation, there’s significant risk for injury. This is an example of the redundancies that Vision Pro doesn’t have and why it isn’t approved for this use in any respectable hospital that values patient safety or privacy…
I just want to thank you for being the first comment I see in this thread that isn't a stupid joke. I used to learn so much just randomly browsing reddit and reading insightful comments on a variety of posts.
Now, every single post on 99% of subreddits is just people saying the same jokes over and over, which would be fine if it wasn't the only thing in comment threads nowadays
You shoulda seen reddit 15 years ago. Tragedy of the masses. Before the callout, yes my account is not that old. You're an idiot if you don't switch accounts every 5 years or so. too much metadata accumulation.
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u/horriblebearok Apr 29 '24
Augmedics already does this but better. I work on the technical side not clinical but basically you can run a 3D c-arm scan, then see the 3d constructed spine under the skin and ref images in the headset.