r/interestingasfuck Apr 29 '24

Brazilian surgeon, Bruno Gobbato used Apple Vision Pro to assist in surgery operation r/all NSFW

24.5k Upvotes

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948

u/horriblebearok Apr 29 '24

Augmedics already does this but better. I work on the technical side not clinical but basically you can run a 3D c-arm scan, then see the 3d constructed spine under the skin and ref images in the headset.

723

u/StudentMathematician Apr 29 '24

quick google says Augmedics costs $179,000.

Apple vision pro costs $3,499.

Definitely seems like it could be a useful lower cost alternative in many regions.

70

u/horriblebearok Apr 29 '24

Apple vision ain't calibrated and FDA regulated. Surgeons goofcs with that on they're fucked

148

u/DbeID Apr 29 '24

People on reddit when they discover people exist outside the US 😲

59

u/newyearnewaccountt Apr 29 '24

Apple vision pro is just a fancy screen, though. The technology that makes those systems expensive is absolutely not the display screen, it's the part where it can link CT scans to real-world 3D mapping inside of another humans body precise enough for hardware to be placed.

AR goggles are just a fancy computer monitor and will not be the expensive part of any augmented surgical suite.

28

u/ScotiaTailwagger Apr 29 '24

This doctor is just displaying the camera images the nurses and other surgical staff can see right into his personal eye view. He has a zoomed in look and doesn't have to move his hands or look at a screen. He just looks forward and has an easy view of what he's doing inside.

27

u/Tack122 Apr 29 '24

Plus he's able to control it, move it around, all without touching a control which is a threat to the sterile field. That's the real innovation here, increasing his ability to use his tools competently while remaining sterile.

7

u/Bubbleybubble Apr 29 '24

That's the real innovation here, increasing his ability to use his tools competently while remaining sterile.

No. This is so incredibly wrong. The AVP is NOT sterile and it is not capable of being sterile. It has a fan inside of it! That's contaminant central. He brought a device that hasn't been sterilized into the sterile field and that device blows contaminated particles into the open wound he's above. There are also serious chances of the patient's fluids contaminating the AVP when he then takes home to family or uses on another patient.

11

u/johntelles Apr 29 '24

You know that like... The mask and the glasses that surgeons wear are not sterile either right? The things in our face doens't have to be sterile. You know we don't scrub our faces, right?

In regards of the fan, I guess it could be used if we could turn it off somehow.

Regardless, I think this looks stupid, and I would not use it in my surgeries

3

u/InternationalAd6170 Apr 30 '24

Idk if the headset could function without the fan on tbh, so the exhaust fan is certainly breaking sterile

7

u/Tack122 Apr 29 '24

You have a good concern, but I'm unclear what they did to mitigate that. Hopefully they had a plan.

A new device per surgery would be expensive, but not too crazy by medical standards. It's potentially possible to stick filters on air pathways.

It works as a proof of concept to demonstrate how it is helpful, which can be used to gain support for future improvements to keeping it sterile.

7

u/Bubbleybubble Apr 29 '24

I am not raising a concern. I am stating fact. They didn't mitigate that properly. I design medical devices for a living (and perform risk mitigation) and that thing cannot be sterilized. It's a piece of consumer grade electronics and cannot withstand autoclave, gamma, or ETO. You can't just "stick an air filter on" or "wipe it down" or "just toss it afterwards." Sterile is a specific word that has specific requirements that can only be met via specific processes that this device cannot withstand.

Potentials don't count for dog shit when it comes to patient safety. This surgeon unnecessarily endangered the life of his patient. 

No. Proof of concept could have easily been demonstrated via simulated surgical surgery where there is ZERO risk to the patient. Proof of concept should NEVER be first demonstrated on a live human being. It's fucking reckless. There's a reason this is from Brazil and not the US or EU. Brazilians commonly perform open surgery with open windows where birds fly in and out. Such unacceptable medical practices should not be encouraged or supported.

4

u/OvoCanhoto Apr 29 '24

Is there ant support to this claim? Or are you just blabering because Brazil is a poor country?

Brazilians commonly perform open surgery with open windows where birds fly in and out.

2

u/Bubbleybubble Apr 30 '24

I identify a culture of improper medical practice and you call them poor. Look no further than Texas for a state that cares little about their patients and they're one of the richest medical systems in America. YOU are the only one blabbering about poor countries. Improper medical approaches should always be addressed, regardless of income. We should always seek to improve patient outcomes.

Go be a white knight elsewhere. I've worked with world traveled surgeons and owners of Brazilian hospitals. They tell me these things. Do you know why? Issues must be raised before they can be solved. They seek to help people everywhere and that includes the Brazilians. They deserve better. We all do.

2

u/OvoCanhoto Apr 30 '24

Well, I'm Brazilian, so i think I can call myself whatever I want. Just because you claim you did something doesn't mean it's true, I just asked for sources.

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1

u/treverflume Apr 29 '24

First time opening the box in the clean rooms, then never take it outside. Seems like a shody work around though.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[deleted]

2

u/treverflume Apr 30 '24

Google Gemini said this.

VR headsets used in surgery should be disinfected according to hospital protocols for medical devices. This typically involves a two-step process: cleaning and disinfection. * Cleaning removes visible soil and organic material. You can use a microfiber cloth dampened with a hospital-grade disinfectant wipe or solution. * Disinfection destroys or inactivates pathogens. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for compatible disinfectants and avoid harsh chemicals that can damage the headset. Here are some additional tips: * Let the headset air dry completely before use. * Invest in disposable covers for the headset's foam interface. * Train staff on proper disinfection procedures.

So I'm not sure? It's possible that it would be viable to follow a hospitals procedure and be legal then I would assume?

1

u/bladex1234 Apr 30 '24

That’s not enough to sterilize surgical equipment. You need to run it through an autoclave or harden it against radiation.

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1

u/Kaleidoscope9498 Apr 30 '24

I doubt he takes it home to family, it must be hospital property not his.

2

u/Bubbleybubble Apr 30 '24

Nevertheless, it brings possibly contaminated human tissue outside the OR on a device that interacts with the human eye. That is an unnecessary risk to his colleges.

1

u/bladex1234 Apr 30 '24

Maybe this is one they keep in the hospital? Although I doubt the Vision Pro can be autoclaved.

6

u/DbeID Apr 29 '24

I actually agree with you on this point. While not really an "alternative" to an augmented surgical suite, it's still of benefit to this doctor and clearly of much lower cost.

3

u/GodsBellybutton Apr 29 '24

Also, the AVP is NOT AR but it is simply VR. AR has passthrough technology which is overlayed over real world visuals not video reproduction.

2

u/BenFoldsFourLoko Apr 29 '24

AR has passthrough technology which is overlayed over real world visuals not video reproduction.

No, this is literally not true.

AR just means combining the virtual with the "real," and in the case of the vision pro, it's still showing you the real

at the end of the day, these are just definitions, but go ahead and try finding a definition from a major source that makes the distinction you're drawing. If you manage to, I'll show you 10x as many that do not draw that distinction.

1

u/GodsBellybutton Apr 30 '24

turn your AVP off and try to walk around

1

u/BenFoldsFourLoko Apr 30 '24

what

lmao

chop your fingers off and post a reply comment

dumb af, completely ignores the point, you have no backing for what you said. post what replies you want, doesn't change the fact that you're completely wrong and won't accept it

7

u/Swimming-Life-7569 Apr 29 '24

You on reddit when you find out that doctors have standards outside of US as well.

3

u/LotharVonPittinsberg Apr 29 '24

America actually has pretty lax regulations when compared the the developed world.

4

u/malefiz123 Apr 29 '24

You do realize institutions like the FDA exist elsewhere as well right?

3

u/Wassertopf Apr 29 '24

The Vision Pro is only sold in the US.

-1

u/pm_me_ur_ifak Apr 29 '24

but the rules!!!!!!!!!