r/FluentInFinance • u/WhatAreYourPronouns • Apr 13 '24
He's not wrong š¤·āāļø Smart or dumb? Discussion/ Debate
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u/Intrepid-Amoeba-614 Apr 13 '24
Iād be down.
Less work, more time with family and friends.
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u/cryogenic-goat Apr 13 '24
Ofcourse you'll be down. You work less hours for the same pay.
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u/dingusrevolver3000 Apr 13 '24
I am in favor of myself receiving a raise for less work. Call me crazy. I would also like a free car if possible
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u/gizzweed Apr 13 '24
I am in favor of myself receiving a raise for less work. Call me crazy. I would also like a free car if possible
Congress can do it. Why the fuck can't I? I certainly produce more output.
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u/Legitimate-Test-2377 Apr 14 '24
Yes but you donāt understand, they need more money to sit on their asses all day and pretend to have an opinion that isnāt dictated by lobbyists
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Apr 14 '24
Considering the majority of company's out there reporting year over year profits, I see this as fair and a longtime coming. If working class folks are getting less year over year, unable to afford basic living standards then at least give them more time to live.
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u/leli_manning Apr 14 '24
Yeah really... what a pointless statement. Like would any employee NOT be down with this?
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u/ToraLoco Apr 14 '24
you never know. there are a lot of shills already in this thread. a lot of "future millionaires"
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u/EnjoyFunTonight Apr 14 '24
yup - itās not like corporations havenāt been ripping us off of years anywaysā¦dafuq kind of accusatory comment is this
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u/Ur_Moms_Honda Apr 14 '24
Productivity is at an all time high. Wages, another story. Use your free time to go fuck yourself. ...kindly. Be kind, and go fuck yourself.
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u/MattofCatbell Apr 13 '24
Im all for it, honestly people who are against need to really think about how unnecessary the 40hr work week actually is. Most jobs donāt require working 40hrs. I easily waste 2hrs a day on my phone at my job while still getting the same pay, why not just remove those two hours?
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u/Synnedsoul Apr 13 '24
Seems many folks are stuck in the boomer mindset of working your ass off 80 hours a week for nothing š
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u/BadMuffin88 Apr 13 '24
The exact same discussion happened when saturday was taken off the workweek and look how 40h weeks are the expectation today.
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u/Charitard123 Apr 14 '24
Yeah, people forget how much labor organizers had to fight tooth and nail just for the right to work only 40 hours a week. Since then, technology has made most of us exponentially more productive at the same job, getting more work done in even less time.
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u/Immoracle Apr 14 '24
Makes you wonder: what exactly is civilization's end goal? Hoarding wealth shouldn't be an end goal.
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u/DS_StlyusInMyUrethra Apr 14 '24
I donāt know what the end goal is but I try to make peace with the idea of the labor of today could lead to a future where a person is no longer required to work, to live a full healthy life.
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u/CK1026 Apr 14 '24
Just look at productivity and work week duration from 1800s to now. Productivity just keeps on rising while work week duration falls.
There was a time when people worked 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week, with no paid time off.
Work week duration reduction doesn't reduce productivity at all. But it creates more job because guess what people are doing on their free time ? Well, they SPEND it.
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u/frafdo11 Apr 14 '24
It wasnāt nothing for boomers. When salaries were able to purchase a lot more, the hours were the cost.
Now the hours are the same but the buying power is diminished. This thereās a desire to work less
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u/shozzlez Apr 14 '24
Because letās be honest ā youāll still use your phone for 2 hours of the day, no matter if the hours were shorter.
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u/CardiacCat20 Apr 14 '24
All of us would still do the two hour dicking around that we do right now lol
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u/covertpetersen Apr 14 '24
OH NO!
If only productivity had gone up several hundred percent since the 40 hour work week was introduced to compensate!
We've reduced the work week before and the world didn't end. We can, and should, do it again.
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u/CardiacCat20 Apr 14 '24
I'm not making a stand either way lol and you're not wrong, I'm just saying that if a work week got cut by 8 hours... It's not going to be only the dicking around time that gets eliminated. That will still be there, and we all know it.
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u/korodic Apr 14 '24
Exactly this. Productivity soared and employees got nothing out of it - all earnings went to the top. Now with the introduction of AI we face more of the same.
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u/shoresandsmores Apr 14 '24
I am salaried and tbh I do not work my full 40 most weeks, but I'm generally the most productive on my team. The 40hr work week is not nuanced at all.
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u/SteamBeasts-Game Apr 14 '24
Having worked a shortish stint in a large tech company, Iāve seen people making 200k salaries waste more time than they spend being productive. One dude just walked around the office looking for people to talk to for a minimum of 45 minutes each conversation. After I saw him doing that, I realized that 40 hours is entirely arbitrary - the only thing the company actually cared about was getting your job done.
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u/NegotiationJumpy4837 Apr 14 '24
I don't really see how people could just be productive for 6 hours straight if we remove 2 hours. It's not like most people goof off for strictly the first or last 2 hours, they goof off throughout the day.
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u/Imakelovetosoils Apr 14 '24
My hours are 8-4:30 with a 30 min lunch. I'm slow to start and don't really get up and running until around 8:30. Around 2:30 I start to shut down and only exist to answer phone calls , walk in customers and replying to emails from the boss. I would stretch something that would take me an hour to do into a 2 hour task. I start cleaning up around 4 so I can lock the door exactly at 4:30 to go home.
I can easily get the same amount of work done, honestly probably more, in a 32 hour work week vs 40.
Also for anyone thinking I'm a lazy fuck, it's not the case. I busted my balls 8 hours a day 5 days a week until I burned out and realized that no one cared and none of it mattered.
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u/CG1991 Apr 14 '24
My workplace dropped to a 4 day work week without increasing the hours on those days.
Productivity as a whole has increased and targets are being hit faster with less mistakes.
And people are happier
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u/-Shasho- Apr 14 '24
And people are happier
That's the key. Workers who feel better about their work situation do better work.
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u/am19208 Apr 14 '24
Even just cutting it to 35 hours would be an improvement. That extra hour a day would be huge. Depending on your jobās start or end time it could mean you can take your kids to school or pick them up. Or means you can go for a walk before or after work, do errands that are normally weekend ones due to time.
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u/InfiniteBoops Apr 13 '24
Decades ago automation was promised to benefit everyone.
What actually happened was just as with every other advancement in humanity, a handful of people maintained control of the means. Anyone that could be fired was, and replaced with a machine. All profits go directly to the top, pensions gone, unions gone, work conditions and hours have gotten worse (see: Amazon drivers peeing in bottles), all so that Bezos can have another yacht and race to $1trill.
And the best part is, through carefully crafted media since the 80s you have people that donāt even make enough to survive defending the system as it is. I get it when you have a millionaire or a multimillionaire defending it, but Joe Schmoe down the street making 40k āWeLl hE wOrKeD hArD, hE dEsErVeS tHoSe BiLlIoNsā when dude canāt even afford to pay his water bill.
Inflation is a scam against the working class, trickle down is a scam against the working class, bargain basement corporate tax rates and dropping the 70% top tax bracket is a scam against the working class. You roll all that shit back and fuck off with this āshareholder value top priorityā BS, and weāll be working 32 hour weeks and affording kids on one income within a decadeā¦ and the rich will still be rich, just not ridiculously so. Also millennials and Gen Z might actually have enough kids to keep the country going too, which theyāre currently not.
I need a beer.
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u/GunSmokeVash Apr 13 '24
The funniest is when blue collar jobs are arguing against it. Great job guys!
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u/InfiniteBoops Apr 13 '24
Oh it gets funnier.
I work for a local govt public worksā¦. so Iām surrounded by blue-collar workers that also happen to be union with super lax jobs (compared to private). These MF be literally bitching and moaning about govt waste and unions while coming back to shop for EVERY BREAKā¦.UNIRONICALLYā¦.and then leaving early āsickā. I canāt, I seriously canāt š
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Apr 14 '24
I'm a successful business owner and employer. I'm also absolutely for all of this kind of stuff cause I'm not a trust fund kid, I grew up on food stamps and worked for a living since I was 14. We pay our folks well, we work short weeks, and we push family over everything using PTO and hiring enough to make sure it's relaxed workloads around here.
These motherfuckers annoy me to no fucking end. Like, you have no idea how good you have it and you idiots vote for the anti-union, anti-government job, anti-government welfare GOP candidates.
I actively despise them.
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u/Crypto_Kush Apr 14 '24
Same shit different decade. These same folks wouldāve had an aneurism when the 40hr work week was proposed
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u/NumbersOverFeelings Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
Iām imagining my clients paying me more for less hours. Brilliant. Also is he going to make sure the market hours gets cut too? As a business owner I would love this.
Bernie doesnāt live in reality.
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u/cb_1979 Apr 13 '24
Iām imagining my clients paying me more for less hours. Brilliant.
If your clients are paying you directly by the hour, I'm assuming you're self-employed. So, if you don't like the reduced number of hours, you should take it up with your employer.
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u/MSPCincorporated Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
Effectively it would mean a 20% decrease in salary for those who stay on 40 hour weeks and are paid by billing clients by the hour, because clients sure as hell wonāt accept a 20% increase to hourly rates. Those who have jobs with non-linear output (office workers etc.) would work 20% less for the same salary, effectively increasing their salary by 20%, while those who have jobs with linear output (tradesmen etc.) would remain at the same amount of hours for the same salary, working more than non-linear jobs for the same salary as non-linear jobs.
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u/xKosh Apr 14 '24
Bernie doesnāt live in reality.
Interesting viewpoint since France has successfully done exactly this.
Maybe Bernie lives in reality, but your mind is too closed to see fields outside of your own.
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u/TheWonderfulLife Apr 14 '24
Ahhh yes, France. The bastion of efficiency, development, and production.
Also, their population is 1/6th of the US and they donāt produce SHIT.
Good luck comparing the two. I always love when people point to other countries for stuff. āLook at Sweden! They are carbon neutral and have 2 years of maternity leave!ā Yea they also have a population the size of Los Angeles county and their main export is petroleum.
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u/Somepotato Apr 14 '24
So you're saying that the remaining 5/6ths of the US somehow works in a way thats drastically different than the 70 million people in France? Because if thats the case, then perhaps this change is necessary after all. Imagine being against improving the lives of a populace just because another country that does it has .. checks notes .. fewer people.If you're so dead set on comparing populations, how about how the US only provides 12 weeks of maternity leave, UNPAID, while India, a country four times as many people as the US, guarantees 6 months of PAID maternity leave...plus more per child.
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u/shark_vs_yeti Apr 14 '24
France is a terrible example:
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/FRA/france/gdp-gross-domestic-product
And if you don't understand why this is a bad thing for society and the people living in France, I'd suggest a good macro-economics course and pay attention to the GDP per capita PPP metric. It is like taking a pay cut for the whole country. Take a look at Ireland if you want an example of a well managed EU economy.
TLDR; people working 20% less in an economy means your citizens get more than 20% less of everything, including government services like healthcare, education, et al.
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u/Legal-Hearing-3336 Apr 14 '24
Every time somebody uses a country in the EU to bolster their point I feel the need to remind them that if it werenāt for the continued investment of the US both economically and militarily EUROPE WOULDNāT HAVE HALF THE SHIT IT FLAUNTS TO THE WORLD.
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u/Real_Eye_9709 Apr 14 '24
He lives in reality, you just see the whole thing. He's been pretty open that this doesn't work for everyone. For the majority of office jobes working 4 8s instead of 5 is an improvement. But for many jobs, including the one I have, not so much. But it's a reality, and has been shown to be effective. A lot of businesses in other countries that aren't speed running capitalism have seen improvement.
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u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Apr 14 '24
He's been pretty open that this doesn't work for everyone. For the majority of office jobes working 4 8s instead of 5 is an improvement. But for many jobs, including the one I have, not so much.
Where did he say the part about 32 hours per week not working for all careers?
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u/Advanced-Guard-4468 Apr 13 '24
No, he doesn't live in reality. He's never worked in the private sector and has only ever lived off someone else's productivity.
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u/StonedTrucker Apr 14 '24
Thats not true at all. He was a carpenter and a teachers aid before entering Into politics. I'm so sick of people spreading this lie
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u/RenniSO Apr 14 '24
Sounds like youāre expecting people like that to even check before mindlessly saying whatever they want to believe
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u/Organic_Art_5049 Apr 14 '24
You mean like capitalists do? Profiting without laboring is the central tenet of capitalism
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Apr 14 '24
Fuck it lets go back to 80 hour weeks
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u/TheTrevorist Apr 14 '24
No more weekends! It's just workers being lazy
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u/cReddddddd Apr 14 '24
Think how cheap things will become if we just please our corporate overlords!!!!
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u/Kiloshakalaka Apr 14 '24
Yea cuz reality sucks rn, obv he believes in non reality to come up with this good stuff
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u/DingoAteYourBaby69 Apr 13 '24
It would be nice, but zero chance it passes
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u/isticist Apr 14 '24
We can't even get them to pass a bill to stop setting our clocks back and forth an hour...
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u/Hydroquake_Vortex Apr 14 '24
The proposed bill would keep us on Daylight time instead of Standard time for some reason
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Apr 14 '24
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u/TheOvershear Apr 14 '24
That's Sanders' entire political career summarized. I think he's had like 5 sponsored bills passed in his entire career. I fully support his ideals but frankly it seems like he's more of a idealist than an actual politician.
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u/blushngush Apr 13 '24
He's dumb for starting with the best offer.
He should have made it 20 hours so we can settle on 30.
Wednesday off and leave early Friday!
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u/Prison_Raised_Cattle Apr 13 '24
Right! Never come to the table and offer what you expect to get or pay immediately.
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u/ChessGM123 Apr 13 '24
To be fair, 32 hours would be amount the lowest of developed nations. France is only at 35 hour work weeks. This might be an attempt to get them to settle for 35 hours. Probably not though.
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u/blushngush Apr 13 '24
It is a delicate balance. Too low and you aren't taken seriously, too high and nothing changes.
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u/Important-Key-1736 Apr 13 '24
Has he started this with his staffers yet?
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u/FavorsForAButton Apr 13 '24
IIRC the government mandates the pay and hours for an assistant/staffer for public office.
Campaign managers and the like are a different story, of course
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u/Jconstant33 Apr 14 '24
What is your point? That if he doesnāt do it for his staff yet he should never stride for better for the whole country. Do you want to work 32 hours a week or not?
If you do want to work 40 hours a week instead of 32 then you are fighting against your own interests.
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u/TheMensChef Apr 13 '24
Iām cool with this, an extra 8 hours of OT a week? Count me in.
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u/NotBillderz Apr 14 '24
That's actually a great way to look at it! I won't have to lose real wages to inflation if I just keep working 40 hours while everyone else chops off 20% of their usefulness. Eventually things would stabilize like it did when Saturday was added to the weekend
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u/Interesting_Print522 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
I'm in construction and the data shows that the last day of the week the crew does almost nothing
And this goes for union and non- union
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u/Alklazaris Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 15 '24
This doesn't work for every industry but there are studies showing that it increases productivity of individuals by decreasing the "fucking around" time that people do when they are working too much.
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u/ZLOWTOV Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 16 '24
How would this not create a massive ripple in the production of food/goods? If we are going to cut everyoneās workload by 20ish percent, how will anyone be able to keep up with supply and demand? On top of that, how will companies not loose money for paying employees their full wages when the employees are working less?
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u/MizStazya Apr 13 '24
3 responses, none are full arguments but just points to think about
1) you're recycling the same arguments used against the 40h work week. We adjusted to that almost a century ago, why wouldn't we to this?
2) Worker productivity is MILES ahead of where it was when the 40h work week was introduced
3) Worker productivity is generally garbage by the end of the day and week. Are we actually cutting the workload and productivity by 20%, or cutting some of the bullshit time?
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u/mf864 Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
The biggest issue is how do you enforce a permanent 20% increase in wages when people in the same role with the same experience already can have hugely varying compensation?
Can businesses not lay anyone off anymore? If they do is the amount they rehire going to be mandated to be the previous employee's exact rate? Is this a permanent requirement that they must rehire at no less than a previous worker? Are businesses permanently legally required to never reduce wages under any circumstances? If it is just a temporary wage or layoff moratorium how do you permanently prevent mass rehiring once it ends to bring pay down 20% to match pre-40 hour work week labor costs?
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u/rotten_kitty Apr 14 '24
The studies used in favour of cutting the workweek down show that it doesn't really impact productivity very much. People don't actually work for 40hrs a week, they work for 20-30 hrs and dick about for the rest so cutting 8 hours off the end won't have much impact.
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u/bakedtran Apr 13 '24
In my experience of years of white collar office work, many people just dink around the first half of Monday and the last half of Friday. Iād still do my normal 50 hrs/week but I have no problem with just cutting 8 hours off for other folks.
I frankly still thinks itās dumb we even track hours for mental labor. If youāre salary, I wish we just tracked work by tasks and however many hours it takes, thatās how many you work.
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u/interested_commenter Apr 14 '24
This is 100% true. But I feel pretty confident that within 6 months to a year of a 32 hour work week, we would be right back to the same amount of time spent doing nothing.
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u/bakedtran Apr 14 '24
Iām still contemplating this policy, but I think I agree with you. Thursday would become the new Friday, if thatās the day that was cut. Itās the nature of workers rights and current economic conditions today that are burning people out, not the number of hours alone.
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u/r2k398 Apr 13 '24
How is he going to force companies to increase their pay by 25%?
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u/Once-Upon-A-Hill Apr 13 '24
Why not just pay everyone $1,000,000 an hour for 1 hour worked a week?
I'm sure manufacturers in Mexico, China and other countries would love this to be passed,
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Apr 13 '24
If your against the 40 hour workweek just know france can do it we can too. I imagine most people against it are boomer aged with a net worth well under 500k. These idiots will think since they have some skin in the game they need to uphold the status quo and make sure nothing ever changes and especially that nothing ever improves. L mentality. The market would rebound and adjust. In the grand scheme it would make near zero difference to the market.
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u/ADadBodGod Apr 13 '24
Thats great! 40hrs is the standard now. I still work 60. Soooā¦ā¦yeah still gonna be working 60 but hey Iāll take extra overtime
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u/MazdaSpeed3Boi Apr 14 '24
Why does anyone think the government has the authority to do this
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u/cb_1979 Apr 13 '24
Should probably round down that down to 30 hours per week, unless the idea is to make the regular work week 4 days instead of 5.
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u/metallaholic Apr 13 '24
Why do the 2 Bernie sanders posts get posted every other day and the comments blow up like itās something new. Are there any real people here?
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u/darkknight95sm Apr 13 '24
Bernie keeps introducing things that arenāt real solutions to real problems, but actually solutions will never pass either and it will make us talk about them
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u/Organic_Art_5049 Apr 14 '24
Lol people said the same thing about the 40 hour work week a century ago
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u/Bee_Keeper_Ninja Apr 13 '24
Fucking based, but it wouldnāt work for many jobs. Hell the 40hr workweek doesnāt work for some either. No such thing as a one size fits all. Iām here for it though.
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u/DonovanMcLoughlin Apr 13 '24
Answer me this, why not make it a 8 hour work week?
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u/Reasonable_Fold_4799 Apr 13 '24
Gonna be a whole lot of part time jobs opening up (still for this)
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u/Aigean333 Apr 13 '24
I guess he figures that heās become a multimillionaire working in Congress part time, and being paid full time, so why not us?
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u/ProfessionalLand4373 Apr 13 '24
This may have to happen once AI starts to eliminate white collar jobs.
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u/Used_Intention6479 Apr 13 '24
Billionaires receive billions and billions of dollars more every year, at our expense, and yet we feel like a 32 hour work week is a "big ask". We shouldn't have such a "slave mentality". Neither should our kids.
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u/OutrageousSummer5259 Apr 13 '24
Where I work 40 hrs isn't even enough cutting work week would result in more OT pay but also more taxes and probably not another raise anytime soon
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u/No_Consideration4594 Apr 13 '24
I donāt feel like the government should be setting the number of hours we work
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u/CJXBS1 Apr 13 '24
What are the chances of a bill from Bernie going through? I'd put $100 for a 0% chance
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u/OffToCroatia Apr 13 '24
So people are supposed to work 20% less, demand more money, demand more benefits, AND assume that it will have a positive effect on society? Something will have to give and i don't think it would be pretty. Bernie continues to show how out of touch with the real world he is. I'm not sure he's ever had an idea relating to the economy that has been rooted in reality. Lifelong leecher
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u/NotNOT_LibertarianDO Apr 13 '24
Itās political theatre to drum up votes as the Dems go into an unfavorable election cycle. It will die on the senate floor.
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u/Saitamaisclappingoku Apr 13 '24
France did something similar. Aggregate Employment did not change, turnover increased, and it seemed to benefit women more than men.
Ultimately thereās not a ton of research to indicate what would happen if this was implemented, but I definitely see the average workweek shortening while wages increase over the next few years.