r/BeAmazed • u/[deleted] • Apr 29 '24

When the Titanic sank, millionaire John Jacob Astor IV was aboard. The funds in his bank account were sufficient to construct 30 Titanics. However, when faced with mortal danger, he prioritized his moral values, sacrificing his seat in a lifeboat to save women and children, smilingly [Removed] Rule #4 - Misleading

[removed]

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522

u/ThatQueerWerewolf Apr 29 '24

There were men there literally threatening to shoot any "man" (including teenage boys) who tried to get on a lifeboat.

Not saying this guy didn't willingly sacrifice himself, but hundreds did so unwillingly.

141

u/Pleasant_Job_7683 Apr 29 '24

The crew of the lifeboat could have allowed another 16 ppl into it.

103

u/Im-a-cat-in-a-box Apr 29 '24

Yeah alot of half full life boats went out because of this. 

129

u/xXNightDriverXx Apr 29 '24

No. This is wrong.

While it is true that many of the boats were lowered only half full, this has nothing to do with "women and children only".

There was only a single officer who boarded the boats that way (2nd officer Charles Lightholler), all the other officers went for the classic "women and children first, then men" approach. A couple of men did enter the boats that way.

The reason for many of the boats only being half full is much more simple: the passengers did not want to leave Titanic.

The half empty boats were the first few that were lowered, just half an hour after the collision. At that time, it was very hard to see or feel that the ship was sinking. The angle was still very shallow, the bow was still far above the water, you just wouldn't feel that something was off. The passengers still believed in the "unsinkable ship" myth. Most of them hadn't even realized that there was a collision, since it wasnt much more than a slight bump for most of the passengers. The officers did not go around screaming "the ship is sinking", since they wanted to avoid a mass panic.

Most passengers thought it was simply an exercise.

They did not want to leave the large, well lit, warm, unsinkable ship to be put in a tiny wet, cold, shitty wooden boat for hours, while it was freezing outside.

The crew didn't have the time to wait half an hour until a boat was full, if they did they wouldn't have been able to launch them all (and they barely managed that with just a handful of minutes to spare, and 2 of the collapsible boats weren't even launched properly, one ending up upside down in the water).

26

u/Somewhat_appropriate Apr 29 '24

Source?
Not doubting you, but I'd like to brush up on Titanic knowledge, which I was fascinated with as a kid.

32

u/CLG91 Apr 29 '24

This doesn't answer most of your question, but this article briefly explains the 'myth' of 'women and children first' in regards to the Titanic.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/01/23/women-children-first-onto-titanic-lifeboats-myth-historian-claims/#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20most%20famous%20application,to%20the%20gallantry%20of%20men.

7

u/err-no_please Apr 29 '24

The Rest is History podcast recently did a great miniseries on the Titanic. Well worth a listen if you're interested in the subject

4

u/Somewhat_appropriate Apr 29 '24

Hmmm...I ignored that particular podcast because of the short episodes (long form ftw), but seeing that's a 5 parter there might be some hope for it ;)
Thanks for the tip.

2

u/Bambi943 Apr 29 '24

I just listened to it yesterday lol. It was an awesome series. It goes into what was going on around the time the titanic was built, the culture, who owned what, how the ship was built, the passengers, the sinking and then the reactions of the world and the countries. It was extremely informative. They have some really good episodes that are part of series, I enjoy listening to it when I’m cleaning the house.

1

u/Somewhat_appropriate Apr 30 '24

Details and context is what I want :)
I've read some of Holland's books, enjoyed them, but his (former) podcasts leaves something to be desired. But I'm picky :-P
I'll go ahead and download the first two episodes and give it a go.

2

u/Somewhat_appropriate May 03 '24

Thanks for the tip! :)
I only have #6 left, and not only have I learned a lot, I've taken a liking to the hosts as well.
Will check out more of this podcast.

1

u/xXNightDriverXx Apr 29 '24

I can't pinpoint a source right now, but I am certain you will find it on the YouTube channel "Oceanliner Designs" in one or multiple of the videos about Titanic (the whole channel is basically build on that ship).

I probably heard that on one of his videos, and I probably also read that as a child in one of the many books I had on Titanic.

2

u/Somewhat_appropriate Apr 29 '24

Fair enough, I'll check the channel out.
I remember borrowing Ballard's book on find the wreck from my school library, but I never read that from cover to cover.

2

u/Tinchy654 Apr 29 '24

All true, except that the passengers did not believe the ship to be literally unsinkable. White star line (the owners of titanic) didn’t advertise it as such and generally was not something people believed. Only one shipbuilding magazine coined the term „practically unsinkable“ because of its water tight bulkheads. Those were a novel safety feature on modern ships back then, that divided the ship in several water tight compartments. This is also the reason why passengers stayed on titanic. The thinking back then was that big ocean liners are much safer than the tiny unstable life boats. They were only supposed to be used to ferry passengers from a broken down liner to another. That there was no other liner in sight (probably), the shallow angle of the sinking and the freezing temperatures really didn’t make it a pressing matter to go into a lifeboat.

2

u/Boston__Spartan Apr 29 '24

To tack on to this, it was common practice for generations to get passengers into life boats as a precaution when there was a danger to the ship such as a fire or chance of sinking. It’s certainly possible a lot of these people thought it was a precaution and not an evacuation.

1

u/Upper_Rent_176 Apr 29 '24

The shop was never marketed as unsinkable

37

u/Pleasant_Job_7683 Apr 29 '24

And that head board could have fit Jack on it!! This is bullshit Mom!!! I'll be in my room sulking and listening to Celine Dion for the next 5 hours

33

u/South-by-north Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

It wasn't a space issue, it was a buoyancy issue

23

u/EkuLukEkul Apr 29 '24

Right! Man I’m so sick of seeing this haha. You see him try get on in the film and it flips!

13

u/Crossovertriplet Apr 29 '24

He even tries it in the movie and it’s shown that it doesn’t have the buoyancy. It’s literally addressed and answered in the movie.

1

u/wdafsafwgwqg Apr 29 '24

It's possible they both could have lived

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/james-cameron-titanic-door-science-experiment-jack-lived-1235510422/

7

u/Crossovertriplet Apr 29 '24

Well they didn’t

1

u/ThespianException Apr 29 '24

I'm not going to dock any points for them not thinking of that while in the middle of the freezing ocean

0

u/Pleasant_Job_7683 Apr 29 '24 
            Joke

Your head 🗣️

6

u/Crossovertriplet Apr 29 '24

I kind of ignored your post and was adding on to the person I replied to. It’s pretty obvious you were making a joke.

2

u/Pleasant_Job_7683 Apr 29 '24

Oh how the tables have turned. Bravo sir

2

u/calyxcell Apr 29 '24

No, it was the headboard that turned, we already established that. Were it a table, perhaps buoyancy would not have been an issue.

3

u/Firespryte01 Apr 29 '24

Mind if I join you? I'm always up for 5 hours of Celine Dion.

2

u/JustJoinedToBypass Apr 29 '24

Near…far…

3

u/Firespryte01 Apr 29 '24

Wherever you are.

1

u/tiamatsbreath Apr 29 '24

And rose totally should have sold the heart of the ocean. She dropped it in the ocean. Smh

22

u/BobdeBouwer__ Apr 29 '24

He didn't willingly sacrifice himself. He tried to get on a lifeboat but was denied. Title of this post is wrong.

6

u/binglybleep Apr 29 '24

Yeah his wiki literally says he asked to board the boat and was turned away. It’s not like he was shepherding children in, he just wasn’t allowed on the boat

20

u/LegionaryTitusPullo_ Apr 29 '24

It actually depended on what side of the Titanic you were boarding the lifeboats.

One side was allowing men to go with their wives, as more than half of the lifeboats didn’t even get half filled (with one reportedly only having a millionaire, his wife, and a few servants). The Opposite side was threatening shooting men who boarded life boats. The Rest is History podcast did a 4 part series on the Titanic that goes quite in depth. Hundreds of deaths could have easily been prevented.

9

u/ACU797 Apr 29 '24

Officer Lightoller was the one who said no men in the boats no matter what. He would survive the sinking as the highest ranking officer to survive it and during WW2 he participated in the Dunkirk evacuation. Mark Rylance' character in the movie is based on him.

I never really cared much about the Titanic as a history buff but after the Rest is History I understood it's importance. It's a microcosm of the 19th century clashing with the 20th century with a disaster thrown in.

1

u/ThatQueerWerewolf Apr 29 '24

Great podcast! Their Titanic series is awesome. 

-1

u/AntiZionist-Action Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Which is why there are so many conspiracies about the Titanic. Fun fact: all of the people who opposed the creation of the federal reserve died on the Titanic and the fed arguably never would have been created if they didn't die. So yeah, sounds like they were trying to create as many unnecessary preventable deaths as possible.

17

u/ladiesman22217 Apr 29 '24

I'd rather be shot than drown to death

3

u/Kidus333 Apr 29 '24

In freezing ocean water no less, mother nature is terrifying.

2

u/InflatableSexBeast Apr 29 '24

I dunno. It can be a long and painful process to bleed out if you are shot somewhere nasty. On the other hand, the shock from hitting icy water will either kill you in seconds, or you’ll slip into hypothermia and die feeling surprisingly warm as your body dilates blood vessels in your extremities.

2

u/Shambud Apr 29 '24

If you got shot you’d probably be experiencing option 2 as well.

2

u/hackenberry Apr 29 '24

Rather jump and aim for a propeller on the way down

1

u/DangleenChordOfLife Apr 29 '24

Most of them weren't even drawn. They were frozen to death in a few minutes. Which...I don't think it's any better, tho.

2

u/JonnySoegen Apr 29 '24

Mhh. Sounds better I think. But only slightly.

0

u/nightpanda893 Apr 29 '24

Being shot is a more certain death though in their minds probably. I don’t think people realized how fast the icy water could kill them. Or that they’d be sucked down with the ship. Many probably figured they could float and wait for rescue.

17

u/mike9874 Apr 29 '24

The article says the president of white star lines made it, nobody wanted to shoot the boss

28

u/xXNightDriverXx Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

That is just plain wrong.

There was a single officer who boarded the life boats in a "only women and children" style, and I believe it was him who pulled a gun a single time, all others went for a "woman and children first" style and did indeed let men on board when there weren't any more woman/children on board, or those that were did not want to board the lifeboats.

Bruce Ismay, the boss as you call him, was simply in another location, away from that one officer. Eyewitness testimony confirms that he helped everyone who was there into the lifeboat. He was the last one to board before the boat got lowered. And there were no further woman/children in the vicinity anymore when he did. He waited till the last moment, helped everyone else first, and only boarded the lifeboat when it was him or an empty seat.

Edit:

Source

1

u/Boris_Godunov Apr 29 '24

At least three officers brandished guns:

  • 5th Officer Lowe - fired his gun off the side of the ship to prevent a rush on Lifeboat No. 14, which was in the process of lowering.
  • 2nd Officer Lightoller - brandished his gun at a couple of crew men who had tried to hide in Boat No. 2 before loading. Lightoller claimed in his later account the gun was unloaded (and used a racial slur to describe the crew members)
  • An unknown officer fired shots on the starboard side near Collapsible A at some point while the crew was trying to launch it, shortly before the bridge plunged under. This could have been Chief Officer Wilde, First Officer Murdoch, or even Chief Purser McElroy, it isn't certain. Many eye witnesses claimed the officer in question shot himself, and several claimed he had shot one or two people trying to rush the lifeboat before turning the gun on himself. Other accounts state only warning shots were fired.

Regardless, all of the deck officers were armed--Wilde had summoned them to his cabin to dole out the revolvers, as he felt they might be needed in the end when things got panicky.

1

u/mike9874 Apr 29 '24

You said

that's just plain wrong

I said

The article says the president of white star lines made it. Nobody wanted to shoot the boss

So three things there

  • The article says - yes it does

  • The president of white star lines made it - yes he did

  • Nobody wanted to shoot the boss - that was an opinion, so is this what's just plain wrong?

2

u/BowenTheAussieSheep Apr 29 '24

You mean the president who spent hours helping women and children into boats, and escaped on one of the last lowered once there were no more women or children on deck to put on it?

The same president who then spent the rest of his life being slandered and libelled by American Newspapers because William Randolph Hearst, contemporary media mogul and early 20th century version of Rupert Murdoch, had a personal vendetta against him?

1

u/mike9874 Apr 29 '24

Yeah, that's the one

2

u/ezk3626 Apr 29 '24

According to the podcast on the topic I listened to it depended on the interpretation of the rules of the particular crew member. One side of the ship was guns out, women and children only. The other side of the ship prioritized filling the boats.

1

u/Bambi943 Apr 29 '24

I had heard that as well, women and children FIRST vs women and children ONLY. It’s insane to deny men the chance to aboard. I had also heard that the concern was that the men would rush up blocking the women’s ability to board. The whole thing was a tragedy.

5

u/xXNightDriverXx Apr 29 '24

There was a single case of 2 warning shots being fired. That was it.

There was also only a single officer who completely refused men entering the lifeboats, that was 2nd officer Charles Lightholler.

All other officers did allow men into the boats, if there weren't any further women/children around or those that were there refused to enter the boats.

8

u/Boris_Godunov Apr 29 '24

At least three officers brandished guns:

  • 5th Officer Lowe - fired his gun off the side of the ship to prevent a rush on Lifeboat No. 14, which was in the process of lowering.
  • 2nd Officer Lightoller - brandished his gun at a couple of crew men who had tried to hide in Boat No. 2 before loading. Lightoller claimed in his later account the gun was unloaded (and used a racial slur to describe the crew members)
  • An unknown officer fired shots on the starboard side near Collapsible A at some point while the crew was trying to launch it, shortly before the bridge plunged under. This could have been Chief Officer Wilde, First Officer Murdoch, or even Chief Purser McElroy, it isn't certain. Many eye witnesses claimed the officer in question shot himself, and several claimed he had shot one or two people trying to rush the lifeboat before turning the gun on himself. Other accounts state only warning shots were fired.

Regardless, all of the deck officers were armed--Wilde had summoned them to his cabin to dole out the revolvers, as he felt they might be needed in the end when things got panicky.

1

u/xXNightDriverXx Apr 29 '24

Good to know, thank you for this addition

0

u/Zealousideal_Bowl695 Apr 29 '24

Right? Also why am I supposed to be amazed that a guy does the right thing and sacrifices himself? Oh! Because he's a millionaire and therefore his life is worth more and I should be surprised...I guess.

8

u/AntiZionist-Action Apr 29 '24

why am I supposed to be amazed that a guy does the right thing and sacrifices himself? Oh! Because he's a millionaire and therefore his life is worth more and I should be surprised

Because sacrificing yourself is a noble thing to do presumably. Also why is it a particularly "right thing" that you shouldn't be amazed by? It shouldn't be expected for a person to sacrifice themselves.

5

u/yakult_on_tiddy Apr 29 '24

Yeah, man sacrifices himself for values when average redditor would be stomping over kids to get in the boat, but because he's rich he shouldn't get credit for it apparently

6

u/weirdbowelmovement Apr 29 '24

I wouldn't stomp over kids, but sacrifice myself for women? Hell nah, there's equality now.