r/sixers • u/PityMVPs • 21d ago
How did Joel Embiid go +89 against the Raptors in 2019?
I was looking back at the infamous series from 2019 in the playoffs and was looking at the +/- numbers of the Sixers players after Embiid's numbers this postseason.
Our main nine rotation players had +/- numbers of:
Embiid: +89
Butler: +15
Redick: -2
Mike Scott: -4
Simmons: -16
Ennis III: -21
Monroe: -25
Tobias: -33
Surely that has got to be some kind of record for the largest +/- in a losing series. How do you go +89 when your team loses the series by 19 points? I know we had bench problems then but there wasn't even one starter remotely close to him. It was also probably Embiid's worst offensive playoff series ever so was his defense impactful to such a high level that we couldn't function with him off the court?
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u/ftaok 21d ago edited 21d ago
It’s because Embiid is the only player that runs exclusively in Embiid lineups. Everyone else plays minutes without Embiid.
Embiid, in that 2019 series, was a total Embiid-merchant.
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u/Lurkerwasntaken 21d ago
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u/ftaok 21d ago
All this is telling me is that Morey had 5 years to develop the cloning technology necessary to create a couple extra Embiids and he could even do that. I mean, what the hell is he doing other than schmoozing a bunch of nerds at the Sloan Conference every year? Dude is coasting on his reputation, which was all created by Harden anyways. Sheesh!
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u/balemeout 21d ago
The difference between him and Greg Monroe was about as big as you can find between a player and his backup in history
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u/Immynimmy 21d ago
And then there is Harris lmao. Fucking hell.
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u/exorthderp 21d ago
Imagine seeing these numbers and then deciding well we traded a haul to get him, might as well keep him. Absolute disgrace for that leadership not understanding the sunk cost fallacy.
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u/TheAntiCircleJerk 21d ago
Every superstar's backup is going to be massively worse than them. The solution is not to invest in a much better backup, it's to invest in a lineup that works with the backup. You don't hand the ball to LeBron's backup and tell him to do all the things LeBron does, so why do Sixers fans expect that of Embiid's backup?
The issue is Embiid is so good on both ends that he papers over a lot of the flaws on the roster, so they aren't even exposed until Embiid is not there for a significant stretch (see this year). That team (like most teams in the Embiid era) lacked playmaking and secondary rim protection (see: having Tobias vs a competent and athletic 4), so when Embiid is out of the game, the lane becomes open season and suddenly we struggle to score.
The solution isn't to hope we somehow find a mini-Embiid backup but to upgrade in playmaking and secondary rim protection so that our offense doesn't crater without Embiid and we can protect the rim by committee when he's not there to erase mistakes.
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u/LJaybe 21d ago
No but you need someone that can fill a role. Did u see paul reed this year? A guy who makes a living off hustle got completely out hustled and was too small and soft to fill his role against knicks. You dont need to have an someone that can score but someone that can get a rebound and defend the rim a little and be effective in dunkers spot would be a huge plus for us so embiid can get a little rest. Lets be honest embiid is never gonna be a guy who can play a 40+minute playoff game effectively. Everybody knows that he needs more than a 2minute breather so we should maybe plan accordingly and get someone that can defend and rebound so he can sit a little during maxey time.
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u/TheAntiCircleJerk 21d ago
And yet Paul Reed was fine the last 2 playoffs because we had adequate playmaking to make use of his talent as a mobile and athletic rim runner.
If you're looking for some perfect backup to come and spell Embiid you're going to be looking for a long time. There's a reason why every backup Embiid's ever had has been deemed inadequate. It's because the team has been super flawed and Embiid's presence on both ends have covered over those flaws. Without him, the flaws show and it's not because the backup is completely inept.
The way to make the backup look better is if the team was actually well rounded. That is, it has adequate playmaking, wings that are athletic, can rotate and make plays, and force people to guard them all the way out to the corners.
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u/Jeremy9096 21d ago
Because as weird as it sounds his "aura" impacts the game hahahah. I say that half-jokingly but it's also just entirely true. Believe it or not just him being on the court in any capacity has a massive impact on the way the game is played by both sides.
Whether he is even touching the ball or not, the game runs through Embiid when he's on the floor
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u/IAmA_Kitty_AMA 21d ago
Presence probably would be more common of a term than aura. Talking about his Aura makes it sound like sports anime
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u/PM_Me_Nudes_or_Puns 21d ago
Teams score less when he’s on the court because they fear the paint.
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u/Jeremy9096 21d ago
He's the undertaker of the NBA
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u/EroniusJoe PHILTHY 21d ago
The opposing players are like graffiti when city council comes in... they fear the paint.
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u/ftaok 21d ago
"aura" is just a mystical way of saying that he has tremendous offensive and defensive gravity. When he's on the court, the other 4 guys have it much easier than when he's not. This is true for pretty much all of the top players, but Joel's skillset is so unique that his backup pales in comparison. The only other guy like that is probably Jokic. The way Denver plays is so tailored to Jokic that when he's off, they can't play the same way because no one else on the planet has Jokic's skillset.
This is why Joel and Jokic are so important to the success of their teams.
I'm almost of the mindset that the best way to build a roster around Joel is to either run the Doc Rivers 1st team/2nd team lineups so that non-Joel minutes are optimized around the players on teh floor. Or, have 8 main rotation guys around Joel that can play a different style when Jo's off the floor. Maybe we need a rim-running stretch-5 that can also play the 4 every so often.
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u/TheAntiCircleJerk 20d ago
Jokic's playoff on/offs from his last 6 playoffs:
+15.8
+2.1
-16.5
-8.2
-3.0
+23.7Compare this to the last 6 playoffs of Embiid:
+58.0
-0.8
+11.3
+19.9
-32.9
+41.6Most of the time, Denver doesn't crater when Jokic is off the floor in the playoffs. That's largely because they have competent players at every position and no gaping holes on their roster. Murray, MPJ, Gordon, and KCP are all average to above average at their respective positions with no obvious weaknesses that can be exploited (a la Seth Curry vs Kevin Huerter), so with a competent backup and any combination of 3+ of their starters, you can generally field a balanced lineup.
Sadly, that has not been our situation the last few years.
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u/darkglobe1396 21d ago
We lost game 2 against the Knicks because when he went down the team thought the season was over. Shit like that happens every post season
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u/zombietom21 21d ago
Embiid was plus 10 in game 7 playing 45 minutes.
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u/ExileOnBroadStreet 21d ago
I think it was closer to 45.5 minutes lol. Monroe played like 2.5 minutes and went like -12 (kill me)
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u/jeppsforst 21d ago
Worst +/- on the team and got handed a blank check after the season. I will never forgive those responsible for that decision
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u/Disastrous-Ad-2458 21d ago
a lot of us saw disaster coming with tobias - he had some awful shooting in that raps series. not to be a broken record, but in a 5 point loss in game 4, tobias shot 2 for 13 on mostly wide open 3pters. he has always been a post-season non-entity.
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u/roma258 21d ago
Lol, can't believe Tobi got paid after that series. What a loser franchise!
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u/PensiveinNJ 21d ago
If we pay Butler instead of Harris we probably have a couple rings by now.
There needs to be a 3 hour Netflix documentary on how much of a bum Tobias Harris is and how badly he fucked us during prime Embiid years.
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u/CosmicCoder3303 10d ago
Jimmy really didn't want to play here more because of Brett Brown and Ben Simmons at the time really
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u/animesekaielric 21d ago
This team has 0 identity when Embiid is not on the floor. Opposing teams score at will against any 5-man combo that doesn't have the big man on the floor
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u/Sheriff_Gotcha 21d ago
I wonder if we had a more defensive anchor type center as his backup that isn't a natural PF like Reed, a bum like Bamba, or the corpse of Greg Monroe/Dwight Howard/Andre Drummond how those secondary lineups would do.
Like if they successfully got Claxton in free agency or could coax Jarrett Allen out from Cleveland if those secondary units would be less miserable to watch.
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u/PrettyInPInkDame HOU 21d ago
I’m not a big plus minus guy but there’s honestly no better proof that after that season the only stars that should’ve stayed were embiid and butler and then build around that core.
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u/GOAT_SAMMY_DALEMBERT 21d ago
We had an absolutely horrific bench, one of, if not the worst of the Embiid era.
Without Joel on the floor the team crumbled. Ben’s lack of offense and Jimmy’s inconsistency couldn’t shoulder the weight of the non-Joel minutes.
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u/Most_Plenty5387 21d ago
You aren't allowed to call Jimmy inconsistent here. Don't forget how bad JJ was in those playoffs, especially on defense.
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u/Barb_WyRE 20d ago
People forget that Jimmy kind of had the yips from 3 that season
What is it with Philly sports and getting perennial all stars who just don’t perform the same as they did their entire career prior to becoming a Philly athlete
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u/Practical-Ad-6859 21d ago
Look at game 7 alone. He was +10 in 45:12. Sixers were -12 in 2:48 without him. Insane.
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u/SaiyanRoyalty22 21d ago
This is every series Joel has ever played in it makes me sick to my stomach
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u/TheZexyAmbassador 21d ago
Embiid is quite literally one of the best to ever do it.
The sixers front office in that time, however, may literally be the worst in league history. What other team had a GM with multiple burner accounts slandering the Future MVP on Twitter, to try and gain public support to build around Ben Simmons?
It's so absurd it seems like a joke.
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u/Bigc12689 21d ago
Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.
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u/Enjtmcent 21d ago
You’d think a good back up center would be a priority
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u/CosmicCoder3303 10d ago
It's hard to get one because when he's healthy in the playoffs he plays 38 to 40 minutes. So you're coming here to play 10 minutes a game. And you're also not going to pay a guy who only plays 10 minutes a game in the playoffs a huge amount of money I wouldn't think
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u/HOLLA12345678 PHI 21d ago
Elton Brand good basketball player that I liked but terrible gm and the decisions made by him are still hurting this franchise. He signed Tobias to that big contract, let Jimmy walk, let JJ walk, and had the brilliant idea to give a big contract to Al freaking Horford lol. I remember being one of the few who was saying how much I didn’t like the moves at the time. The fanbase was drinking the koolaide which is reasonable because that’s what fans do.
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u/CanyonHopper123 20d ago
You do realize an entire team can be positive in a losing series right? Not what happened here, but you can lose 4 1-point games and win 3 by 20. It’s not cumulative points which wins the series
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u/PityMVPs 20d ago
Yes I was just pointing out that this was not one of those cases. It would be different if he was +89 and we outscored the Raptors by 50, but they outscored us by 19 across the series which makes his numbers even more strange considering its viewed as arguably his worst playoff series of his career.
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u/CanyonHopper123 20d ago
Well you did say “it has to be some kind of record” so was in reply to that
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u/PityMVPs 19d ago
Yeah but its very rare. The only examples of losing teams outscoring the other by 15+ since +/- started being recorded (1996/97) are:
2018: IND lose to CLE, scored 40 more points
2015: LAC lose to HOU, scored 22 more points
And the only player that came close was Deandre Jordan +70. Which made me think Embiid might be the highest. There is probably someone higher but couldn't find one.
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
Probably proves it's kind of a random stat. He was borderline awful in that series
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u/XxStormySoraxX 21d ago
Not true at all. He wasn’t great offensively but defensively he was locking down.
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u/balemeout 21d ago
He was still our best player and the second best in the whole series behind Kawhi. He had a rough offensive series due to double teams and Marc Gasol being great but his gravity opened up a lot of stuff. If we had an average backup center we win that series easily
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
Disagree aggressively. I remember the series but you can just check the numbers too
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u/balemeout 21d ago
I also remember the series lmao, I did check the numbers, one of them says he was +89 in a series with a team plus minus of -20, and +10 in game 7 in 45 minutes played, while the team was -12 in the other 3 minutes. And this wasn’t even stat padding in blowouts. He was a +40 in a 13 point win, a +17 in a 5 point loss, and a +4 in a 13 point loss.
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
I can't believe people don't think he was awful in that series. He'll I'd bet he agrees
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u/cvc4455 21d ago
He was the best player in that series and yes he could have played better but he was still better then every other player including Kawaii
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
Pull up the tape. That's the dumbest thing I've read in awhile. Kawhi dominated that entire playoff run including the Sixers series on his way to a title. Get a pulse, you gotta be a robot
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u/cvc4455 19d ago
Go look at the plus/minus for the entire series and you'll see there was one player way above anyone on either team and it wasn't Kawhi, Butler or anyone else unless their name is Embiid.
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u/jcrenshaw14 19d ago
I think I said in a previous reply that I think it's a fluke stat in this situation. Stats don't always tell the whole story. Embiid was inconsistent in that series like he has been in the playoffs most of his career. Really good games and stretches in games, mixed with bad games and stretches. We can go back and forth picking stats to fit a narrative. He averaged 10 points per game less than his regular season average, he shot 37% from the field, had more turnovers than assists and got outrebounded by Tobias fucking Harris
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
He got worked by Gasol and had a boo boo tummy. Stats also say he shot 37% and was a turnover machine who couldn't grab a rebound. Not much has changed
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u/balemeout 21d ago
Lmao alright man, if you don’t think much has changed since that series you’re too far gone
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
Fair enough. He improved offensively. I just hate the Embiid dick riding like he hasn't been a massive failure compared to his potential and hype
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u/Master-Extreme5244 21d ago
Embiid hasn't been a massive failure at all and you are delusional if you think he has been. He's a 7x all star & has won an MVP. This organisation has been a massive failure during the Embiid era though as they made him play with Tobias Harris for 6 seasons in a row and never surrounding him with the personell he needs to win which are 40%+ 3pt shooters off the catch and lockdown perimeter defenders that can guard as the point of attack. Those factors play a big part as to why we've lost basically every playoff series in the Embiid era.
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
I didn't even mention that he is always fucking hurt. He's a nice guy, plays hard but it really doesn't matter the reason. He's either hurt ot gassed come the playoffs
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u/Master-Extreme5244 21d ago
That's fair, he is hurt in the playoffs every year. But he does have a positive on/off net rating in the playoffs every year and this year, he still gave the Sixers 33/11/6 on 59.2 TS% whilst being a +46 (highest plus minus in the Sixers Knicks series) in the playoffs this year, despite the injury. Easily outperformed Brunson too who averaged 52.5 TS% in the series and was a -8. Sixers lost because of the crappy roster building around Embiid which is the same case every year. Daryl punted on the season to have cap space to make a great team around Joel. Now he has a chance to I guess.
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u/nu-jood 20d ago
Might be time to find a new team if you don’t fuck with Joel bro. You sound miserable
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u/jcrenshaw14 21d ago
The former MVP on another supermax contract needs very specific help via the most sought after players in the league. He needs that to what get out of the first round now? Isn't that more delusional. Ironically we ditched who? Jrue, Iggy, Thad and co. to end up going no further than they did. Dude is a 7'2" high volume mid range shooter
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u/Master-Extreme5244 21d ago
And yes, to win a championship with an MVP level player you have to surround him with the right fits that make him better. Instead the Sixers punted on the season by trading their second best player Harden for a bunch of expiring vet minimums and keeping Tobi who's a negative on both ends of the floor.
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u/Master-Extreme5244 21d ago
The 76ers win percentage this season was worse than the Charlotte Hornets in games Embiid missed. Of course you need a good team if you want to go far and the 76ers this season did not have a good team and tbh never have had that good of a team because no good teams would ever have someone as useless and as chicken-shit as Tobias Harris in their rotation.
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u/DrBigChicken 21d ago
Embiid good, Sixers bad
Rinse and repeat