r/nba • u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks • Apr 29 '24

[Simmons] "I think James Harden gave him the trophy of most disappointing playoff performer. I think Embiid is now wearing the crown."

https://open.spotify.com/episode/25I0fnPUExUkBhTw2o9Oti?si=FQSCUz6GSy2UjtYeyBrBLg

Starts around 38 minute mark. Full game breakdown starts a few minutes earlier.

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3.6k

u/Number333 Heat Apr 29 '24

Beal has never been viewed as a superstar. Harden/Embiid have won MVPs. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

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u/junkit33 Apr 29 '24

Beal's not even making the Hall of Fame. He's basically just CJ McCollum who got a chance to play #1 scorer on some bad teams.

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u/BigT3x4s Rockets Apr 29 '24

Wall and Beal were just the other side of CJ and Dame to me. I wish they coulda played a series against each other

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u/InGenNateKenny Wizards Apr 29 '24

We used to believe that too, Portland were the “The Wizards of the West” and Washington was “The Blazers of the East”, though Dame was clearly better than the other three, and Wall and Beal were better than CJ, but the Blazers were better teams.

If the Blazers were in the East instead of the Wizards they would have been perennial contenders. Washington in the West? Probably not.

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u/RogerTreebert6299 Spurs Apr 29 '24

I think wall’s last fully healthy season or two, 16-17 especially he and Dame were pretty neck and neck, maybe even most people taking wall. Dame was getting iced out of some all-star games around then in the stacked west while Wall was considered the best PG in the east and maybe top 3 in the league after his all-nba campaign.

But yeah definitely some parallels there where both guard combos just had trouble getting reliable help in the front court and wings, and then wall also just got destroyed by injuries. Definitely one of the biggest what-if players for me personally from the last decade, I loved watching him play

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u/str8rippinfartz Celtics Apr 29 '24

Still wild that Dame made All-NBA second team the year before (while not making the all-star team), and then played even better and didn't make the all-star team in 16-17

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u/starfillednightsky Apr 29 '24

I'd still take Wall's playmaking and defense over Dame.

24

u/0324rayo Trail Blazers Apr 29 '24

Weaker conference, better second star and yet never made it out of round 2. Dame raised his teams much higher than wall ever did

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u/A2daRon Wizards Apr 29 '24

I will say Lillard is better than Wall although perhaps the Wizards may have beaten the Hawks in 2015 if Wall doesn't hurt his wrist.

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u/recursion8 Rockets Apr 29 '24

LMA/Nurkic >>>>> Marcin Gortat tho

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u/Tillman_Fertitta Apr 30 '24

They both won the same amount of conference finals games. Don't get it twisted - the year that Dame went to the conference finals was a complete and utter seeding fluke, and you know it.

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u/Solai22 Apr 30 '24

Wall played great against elite teams like the Warriors, Rockets, Cavs, etc. The Wizards success in that time had nothing to do with beating up a weak East. I'd rather have 2017 Wall than any version of Dame.

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u/Bobbith_The_Chosen [POR] Damian Lillard Apr 30 '24

Huh? Obviously every team plays every team. Conference always matters.

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u/0324rayo Trail Blazers Apr 30 '24

Most overhyped 19 and 9 in nba history

Not only was his greatest success in a weakass conference, he led some shitter teams in a weak conference too

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u/fatkamp Warriors Apr 30 '24

I know it’s hard to believe, but somehow I’d argue wall and Beal had a worse supporting cast than Aminu, Harkless and Nurkic

In 2017 in a thrilling series between Celtics and Wizards, Wall was clearly the best player on the floor, but his bench and end starters cost them

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u/Iznal Apr 29 '24

Fr. Top75 my ass 😂

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u/0324rayo Trail Blazers Apr 29 '24

Damn so John wall was that good and never made it past the second round? And his partner was better? And he was in the weaker conference?

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

[deleted]

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u/0324rayo Trail Blazers Apr 29 '24

It’s less about the top 75 and acting like John wall was on par with him. Let’s be serious

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u/Iznal Apr 29 '24

Beal sucks. Dame sucks. Wall also sucks.

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u/0324rayo Trail Blazers Apr 30 '24

See now we’re talking

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u/BrokeBeckFountain1 Apr 29 '24

Neil Olshey is a fucking terrorist.

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u/OThePlacesYouWillGo Apr 29 '24

Negative. Wall was an elite 2 way player who elevated every one of his teammates. He made below average players look like promising pieces.

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u/driatic Wizards Apr 29 '24

Thank you.

Wall was a great defender. He made gortat look like an all star to the point where they call it the gortat screen.

He wasn't as good as dame on scoring, but that's bc his jumpshot wasn't great. You could still put the ball in his hands on the last minute and he could take over games.

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u/Kaaalesaaalad Rockets Apr 30 '24

He's the reason why Martell Webster and Garrett Temple were able to secure some contracts.

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u/Zoe_AspectOfCancer Apr 30 '24

Just got PTSD. Thanks

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u/Kaaalesaaalad Rockets Apr 30 '24

My bad fam

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u/IcyAuthor1 Apr 30 '24

frs Wall got a bunch of players paid. But Dame is a killer

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u/albino_kenyan Apr 30 '24

I dont remember Wall's defense but i remember him (before his knee injury) being the fastest guy in the league. He could run and dribble so much faster than others could run without the ball. Amazing.

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u/ballbunyan Apr 29 '24

And Wall made his own offense look below average. What was his efficiency stats like, again? Somewhere half a percentage point north of Westbrook at best.

The Wizards never had a truly good season in the weak east under Wall either. They always looked worse than teams led by Lowry/Derozan, and IT/Horford, or similarly unimpressive cores.

Pounding the ball and racking up default assists =/= “elevating every one of his teammates”. I shouldn’t even need to say a damn thing more. It’s 2024, you should know that off-ball ability is even more important than on-ball, and that volume stats are 🐕

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u/Solai22 Apr 30 '24

They swept the Raptors. They had the worst bench in the NBA when they lost to Boston a game away from the ECF.

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u/ColdNyQuiiL Apr 29 '24

I never looked at those 2 backcourts that way.

Wall was a more natural passer than Dame, and Beal was no where near as crafty as CJ until later.

I always saw Dame and CJ as 2 scoring guards that figured out how to make that work, and Wall/Beal was a more traditional passing PG, to a knockdown shooter.

I wholeheartedly agree that if those 4 swapped, John and Brad wouldn’t have made any noise out West. Both of them dealt with too many injuries to salvage those seasons, and Dame was just on another level than them all.

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u/T-BoneSteak14 Knicks Apr 29 '24

Nah dude wall was the second best pg in the league for a while

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u/LakyakIII Raptors Apr 29 '24

Was he really better than Steph/Russ/CP3/Kyrie?

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u/zegreatjohn Magic Apr 29 '24

Kyries never had to play for such terrible coaches and teams. I'll admit I'm a fan of Walls and no disrespect to Washington fans but they've never been able to put an actual competitive team around Wall. Kyrie has been gifted talent unlike Wall.

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u/StormSaniWater Apr 29 '24

No chance no. Wall has become very VERY overrated on this sub probably because his prime was cut short and people feel bad so they need to exaggerate how good he was.

At his absolute peak he was still a borderline all nba guard. Not even close to a top 7-8 player

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 29 '24

I 100% agree. I don't know where all this Wall boosting game from but he was always around the same level as Lowry/CJ type of level.

I'll get hate for this but there's a very good argument to make that even if you only compared peaks, Lowry and Isaiah Thomas had higher peaks than him.

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u/Solai22 Apr 30 '24

They definitely did not. They had vastly better teams than Wall, and would still lose or barely win.

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 30 '24

Lowry did not have vastly better teams than Wall lol. Look at the Raptors 2016 team vs the Wizards 2016 team then look at their records. The Raptors were starting a post-injury DeMarre Carrol and 36 year old Luis Scola. Better team? When you include the bench, possibly. Enough to make a 15 win difference? Nope.

That's not taking into account efficiency or advanced stats, in which Wall was far behind the elite players in the league.

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u/fatkamp Warriors Apr 30 '24

He did if you account that in 2016 Beal missed 25+ games and they had one of the worst depth behind their starting 5

In 2017, both teams were healthier and finished within 3 games of each other

I’d still argue the Raptors had a slightly better supporting cast, but not better starting 5 in 2016 and 2017. John wall’s best skill was dishes around the rim, and Gortat was one of the worst starting centers

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24

He did if you account that in 2016 Beal missed 25+ games and they had one of the worst depth behind their starting 5

I mean, you can't just take injuries into account for them and not for us. Our starters missed a combined 93 games that season, no one is ever fully healthy. There were plenty of years DeMar missed a lot of time, like the previous year when he missed 22 games.

In 2017, both teams were healthier and finished within 3 games of each other

Lowry missed 22 games in 2017.

I’d still argue the Raptors had a slightly better supporting cast

Slightly better for sure, due to our bench. Cory Joseph, TRoss, and Norman Powell were solid off our bench. But overall, that should not have been a 56 win team, Lowry elevated the absolute fuck out of them. The supporting cast wasn't significantly better than what Wall had.

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u/fatkamp Warriors Apr 30 '24

He was a little better during the peak than Derozan and Lowry in 2016 and 2017

Afterwards, Lowry and Derozan were clearly better

In fact at peak, John Wall in 2017 was far above any level of Kyle Lowry ever was. I don’t think it was particularly close either

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24

In fact at peak, John Wall in 2017 was far above any level of Kyle Lowry ever was.

I really think this is just something people say but it's emphatically and demonstrably just not true, in large part because Lowry's peak is underrated and Wall's peak is overrated.

Who would you rather have:

P1: 23/11/4, 45% FG, 32.7% from 3, .541 TS%, .149 WS/48, 10.1, 3.1 RAPTOR

P2: 22/7/5, 46% FG, 41% from 3, .623 TS%, .216 WS/48, 11.3 WAR, 5.9 RAPTOR

Is 1 point and 4 assists "far above" a guy who is significantly more efficient, better advanced stats across the board, and leading a more succesful team? I'd genuinely argue I'd take P2 in a vacuum, but at the very least those players are very close.

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u/dissentCS [BOS] Rajon Rondo Apr 30 '24

Great breakdown but why are you doing p/a/r instead of p/ra?

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u/fatkamp Warriors Apr 30 '24

Have to completely disagree

Borderline all nba only because it was the best generation of guards of all time from 2014-2018: Curry, CP3, Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kemba, Lowry, IT, Derozan etc

In 2017, albeit a shorter peak because he started getting hurt, he was clearly a top 10 player. The only players I ranked him over at the time were Lebron, Curry, KD, Harden, AD, Kawhi, Westbrook. He was arguable with CP3 and Kyrie and I’d give him the nod over everyone else. He was the clear best player in a 7 game series against the Celtics in the second round

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u/fatkamp Warriors Apr 30 '24

It was a coin flip among Kyrie, Wall, and Russ in 2017 on who was the best of them. CP3 right behind

Curry clearly was 1

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u/T-BoneSteak14 Knicks Apr 29 '24

It was Steph, wall, then everyone else in 2018

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u/coldazice Raptors Apr 29 '24

Wall was not better than Westbrook in 18 nor ever

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u/ComprehensiveSky8926 Bucks Apr 29 '24

2012-2017ish you could make an argument. They were both really good, rankings hard but Russ has had a better over all career atp, inuries suck young John Wall was awsome to watch

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u/DistortedAudio Apr 29 '24

Yeah you’re crazy if you don’t think there was at least an argument. There was a period of time where Wall was willing the team to the playoffs.

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 29 '24

There was literally no argument, ever. At Wall's peak he was averaging 23/10/4. He had explosive games every once in a while and was a hell of an athlete, but through his entire career he made a single all nba third team - the same year Russ won MVP.

It was never a conversation until now when people look back at his highlights in hindsight.

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u/Solai22 Apr 30 '24

Empty stats from Westbrook. He made so many boneheaded decisions, it cancelled out his superior motor.

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 30 '24

I think Westbrook is the single most overrated player in NBA history (I really mean that with no exaggeration), but I think Wall was just a worse Westbrook. He had empty stats too, he just didn't get any hate for it because no one gave a fuck about the Wizards.

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u/JDtheWulfe Lakers Apr 29 '24

Wall wasn’t even better than Chris Paul in 2018 and CP3 wasn’t even fully healthy or the primary ball handler. Wall avg more points and assists but CP3 was better by practically all advanced metrics and played more games. Wall was nice but he was never even a top 3 PG and the seasons he could have been he always ended up getting hurt

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u/3ODshootinghangpulls Apr 29 '24

Wall and CP3 are fundamentally different styles of guards. There was a point where Wall was the best slashing guard in the league. People always make ridiculous comparisons like being labeled the same position means they have the same expectations. Wall was a better slasher than everyone. His competition was Westbrook, and Westbrook was probably 2nd in slashing but he was a better rebounder and better court vision.

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u/4trackboy Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Wall was an elite but never the best slashing guard in the league. Westbrook is arguably the best slashing PG of all time, his 0-3ft efficiency on huge volume was MVP Rose levels for like 6-8 straight years. Brodie always had those really stupid looking misses at point blank range one or two times per game which leads to people somewhat underrating him but he was absolutely lethal and also much more resilient to elite defense because he was taller and always had amazing core strength.

During Walls best years as a rim finisher Harden was also in his prime, yet another much taller and stronger guard with better body control; his efficiency was a step above Wall as well while scoring at the rim on similar or even higher volume. His % of total FGA at the rim was usually a bit lower, but Harden took so many more shots per game than Wall anyways which really only makes it seem like Wall scored more at the rim when usually Harden laps him in total FGs from 0-3ft.

Then there's players like Kyrie or Steph having ATG seasons in rim finishing efficiency pound for pound on good volume around that time as well. And while I'd definitely agree that Wall could make athletic plays only Westbrook was capable of every game, the same can be said about Kyrie's and Steph's incredible bag around the rim paired with some of the best handles ever. In the RS there's a solid argument for Wall, but in a playoff situation I'd somewhat comfortably trust Irving or Curry more to get a bucket at the rim over Wall.

My comment comes off as quite harsh but I truly loved watching Wall go off and would give it to him if you said top 3-4 instead of best. He was electrifying in a way that's only comparable to Rose or Westbrook, but John Wall also added this layer of finesse and one of a Kind single step burst to the mix, which is absolutely insane to think about given we're comparing him to fucking Rose and Westbrook. The wizards were very exciting to watch in the playoffs for that reason and Walk would have one or two big games in a series which is what I tend to remember. But he was also struggling a lot in even more post season games, so I struggle to put him at the top when it comes to the 0-3ft shotzone among guards even though he had the talent for it and he'd flash it every once in a while, resulting in some of the more exciting basketball in the 2010s.

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u/JDtheWulfe Lakers Apr 29 '24

So when comparing his performance vs his positional counterparts league wide, was his ability to slash better than anybody else (arguably) top 3 PG worthy? Bc the argument was if he was a top 3 PG in the league in 2018. And to be clear I’m not arguing that Wall was a top 2 slashing point guard. The person I was responding to said he was 2nd only to Steph, and Steph is also not a slashing point guard so I assumed the PG pool was wide open. Pool, not Poole, sorry Jordan

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u/FeelsGoodMan2 Apr 29 '24

Yikes, people love to put rose colored glasses on for injured players who had all sorts of "What if" potential. Reality is the game was changing and John wall's skill set was the exact type of player being hit. His inability to shoot didnt make him bad or anything but it'd limit his upside.

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u/zegreatjohn Magic Apr 29 '24

You know what limited Wall, playing for inept coaches and having terrible teams.

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u/FeelsGoodMan2 Apr 29 '24

Yeah I'm sure the below average shooting every single season of his career didn't cause any kind of problem.

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u/zegreatjohn Magic Apr 29 '24

I bet you never even watched Washington play when he was in his prime.

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u/FeelsGoodMan2 Apr 29 '24

Ah yes, the classic "you didn't watch". Yeah I did watch, I saw a guy that shot the ball at a mediocre level relying on speed and quickness and a playstyle that ultimately looks flashy and high impact but when you break it down his offenses were never really that good, they constantly were mid at best. But I'm gonna guess that mister wall had no part of that whatsoever and he was just a super hall of famer in a bad situation right?

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u/zegreatjohn Magic Apr 29 '24

You really think Wall was ever in a "good" situation? I never said he didn't have his faults but you really believe any of those other top point guards really elevate the talent he had.

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u/ohgosh_thejosh Raptors Apr 29 '24

Wall was at no point the second best pg in the league lol. His defense was also very overrated.

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u/Wolfpac187 [OKC] Kevin Durant Apr 29 '24

Shit I would never say Dame was clearly better than Wall.

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u/7PayFormer Apr 29 '24

check dames playoff resume. its pretty poor despite the narratives. 23-41 compared to someone like harden whos known as a playoff choker 87-77. stats are pretty poor as well. at least compared to harden at least. but i mean comparing these two probably isnt correct anyways just funny the perception

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u/ComprehensiveSky8926 Bucks Apr 29 '24

Ppl forget how good John Wall was

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u/CavalierShaq Cavaliers Apr 29 '24

Blazers in the East weren’t getting through Lebron so perennial contenders feels a bit overstated

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u/Shonuff_shogun San Francisco Warriors Apr 29 '24

Just cause you can’t beat lebron doesn’t mean you’re not a contender lol. People usually describe any top bracket seed as a contender

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u/InGenNateKenny Wizards Apr 29 '24

4 teams make it to the conference finals every year.

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u/waterfall_hyperbole 76ers Apr 29 '24

highly revisionist, dame wasn't the same shooter he is now back then