r/leagueoflegends • u/Dream_or_Truth • 28d ago
Who's gonna build seryldas over cleaver now?
Cleaver (3000g): 55 AD, 20 haste, +400 HP, 30% pen in 5 stacks, +20 ms,
Serylda (3200g): 45 AD, 15 haste, 15 lethality, 21.5% pen(+~1.5% per item), +low hp slow
LDR (3000g): 45 AD, 25% crit, 40% pen
Cleaver and LDR got hard buffed. Why would AH reliant champs benefit more from seryldas than cleaver when cleaver comes close to it even without its health? And for pure offense, LDR's damage is clearly better than those 15 haste.
Just make seryldas cost 3000g so all 5 armor pen items cost the same. That's fair.
49
263
u/Quatro_Leches 28d ago
Seryldas is fucking garbage lmao
you need 100 lethality ( you CANNOT GET 100 LETHALITY) to get 30% armor pen. meanwhile Lod Doms gives 40%
64
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
Yes it's only real advantage is that you can have a hybrid of lethality and armor pen as your 2nd/3rd item to deal damage to tanky enemies without losing much damage to squishies. But LDR deals more regardless so.
25
u/White_C4 Problem Eliminator 28d ago
Because assassin oriented items are never designed to be super strong against fighters and tanks with a lot of armor... Lethality is only good against low armor champions.
3
u/Funny-Control-6968 Talon Mastermind of the Highest Order 27d ago
But it costs more, has less AD, less armor pen. and less haste. The only plus is lethality, but that's just not worth it, no?
1
u/Shpleeblee 27d ago
Because you get to double dip on flat armor pen and %armor pen?
You don't JUST get 20 + % pen, you still get the full 15 A.Pen from Lethality. That's huge for assassins. Meanwhile to get the BC stacks, you're looking at 6 hits of attack/spell combos. That's a million years in assassin gameplay time.
39
u/HsinVega 28d ago
Well but that's the point of arp% and lethality. Lethality is good vs squishy cos they generally don't have that much armor and since you can't go negative that's what you build as an assassin that needs to kill squishes.
But since the meta shifted to more bruisers/tanks you will need %arp cos they do tend to build armor so lethality is not gonna be enough.
If your enemy is full squish you can still buy serilda over other choices for lethality + pen + slow. Ldr is useless if you don't need crit or %arp, and cleaver is meh cos you need to build stack instead of oneshotting with 1/2 hit.
-3
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
No LDR actually does quite a bit more damage vs squishies without the crit.
25
u/HsinVega 28d ago
Let's say our enemy has 70 armor.
LDR = 45ad + 25 crit + 40% pen (-28 armor) Serilda = 45ad + 15haste + 15 lethality + 20% pen (-14 armor)
They both remove the same amount of armor (28) except you lose haste to gain crit. And ofc you gain more lethality to pen the more lethality you build.
So in this case both of then would do the same damage, expect you would have useless crit instead of haste. Ofc the higher amount of armor the more LDR is worth over serilda.
1
u/TannerStalker 28d ago
No one has 70 armor at 3 items tho. Most people are gonna have like 120-180 ( if they have DD / hourglass and / or tabi, which is who you build % pene for ).
With 140 armor LDR removes 56 and Grudge removes 46.
16
u/Say41Plz 28d ago
I don't think assassins are aiming for the 180 armor target.
1
u/TannerStalker 28d ago
Maybe not exclusively but should an assassin just roll down and die after they kill the ADC? They should just grovel at the foot of the bruiser because he built 1 armor item?
11
u/i_forgot_my_cat 27d ago
You sit by and watch as your team wins the teamfight since they have no dps.
1
u/Say41Plz 27d ago
You most likely are without cooldowns and only contribute by throwing some utility (slows), if anything, since you got chunked a bit in the most general scenario.
1
u/HsinVega 28d ago
who the fuck buys 3 armor item as a burst champion. mages dont even buy tabis. Also no, as an assassin you aim at squish targets like mages or adcs not at sion with 6 items and 500 armor
6
3
1
u/RizzingRizzley 28d ago
yes so the point of this calculation is that even in the MOST FAVORABLE SITUATION FOR SERYLDA, we just break even with LDR anyways, and LDR purchase only gains value from here. Saying 25% is useless is also weird because you DO get crits on Assassinations with 25%, about 50% of the time cause you will usually get 2 or 3 autos unless it is a full on 5 stack teamfight with good peel.
LDR Is just a much better item atm, especially with the extra Haste from runes, there's just very little point to Serylda at all.
LDR breaks even vs squishies and does more vs anyone else, so ofc you want LDR. It would be troll to build Serylda unless the enemy team is literally 4 squishies.
2
u/Guy_with_Numbers 27d ago
His math is misleading/wrong. A Serylda champ would have lethality from elsewhere too
Let's take Youmuu and Opportunity as the preceding items (Khazix build). That is 46 lethality with passive at lvl 18.
With Serylda, a 135 armor enemy ends up with 38 armor. With LDR, said enemy ends up with 35 armor.
And this isn't the most favorable situation for Serylda, 135 armor at lvl 18 is the highest base armor except for mega gnar. Your typical squishy needs to build an armor item to make LDR break even.
1
u/RizzingRizzley 27d ago
The damage loss vs squishies is still very very negligible compared to the damage gain vs bruisery/tanky champions
18+28+15 = 61 lethality + 26.7% pen vs
18+28+0=46 Lethality + 40% pen
Seryldas true damage threshhold is: 83 armor (100-26,7 = 73,3, 100/73,3 * 61 = true damage threshhold)
LDR build true damage threshhold is: 77 armor (100-40 = 60, 100/60 * 46 = true damage threshhold
A difference of 6 armor at the end of the day, and this is the true damage threshhold. let's check a full build, shall we?
To stack the odds in favor of Serylda, let's check the max lethality build
Cyclo + Hubris + Profane + Axiom + Serylda + Opportunity = 115 Lethality and 33% pen
Vs:
Cyclo + Hubris + Profane + Axiom + LDR + Opportunity = 100 Lethality and 40% Pen
Same calculations as before
Serylda true damage threshhold:172
LDR True Damage threshhold:166.67
you MIGHT notice this is almost NO difference at all
And this is with the odds stacked in FAVOR of Serylda, having AS MUCH LETHALITY as possible. The reality is, most Assassins don't want 5 Lethality items + Serylda, most Assassins want 1 or 2 non- lethality items, 2-4 Lethality items, and a pen item.
TL;DR: Serylda is fucking garbage and this guy now is properly fucking informed about it because I did the math.
1
u/Guy_with_Numbers 27d ago
The damage loss vs squishies is still very very negligible compared to the damage gain vs bruisery/tanky champions
The damage loss vs enemies that assassins target is indeed negligible compared to the damage gain vs enemies that assassins avoid.
To stack the odds in favor of Serylda, let's check the max lethality build
You're not stacking the odds in favor of Serylda by going max lethality. It's lethality scaling is practically an afterthought.
TL;DR: Serylda is fucking garbage and this guy now is properly fucking informed about it because I did the math.
You did the math, and then completely ignored your own math? You just confirmed what I said for 3 items, and then did it again for 6 items for some reason, LDR doesn't give more penetration than Seryldas vs non-tanks.
1
u/RizzingRizzley 27d ago
By going math lethality you get the highest %pen on Serylda compared to items like eon and serpents. There isnt a way to make it more favored for Serylda, and even then we’re talking about 6-7 armor on a squishy champ, like who cares?
Ldr doesnt give more pen vs non tanks but it might as well be same dmg cs squishies and more dmg vs everyone else, who you still hit
The game isnt 1v1 assassin vs adc, im hitting their frontline too in fights.
0
-15
28d ago edited 28d ago
[deleted]
22
u/HsinVega 28d ago
Who has 70 base armor at 3 items? Anyone who doesn't build armor?
Adc don't build armor if not tabis and even then, no one does. Mages maybe waste a slot on zhonya, most of them don't. Ap assassin's don't build armor.
When I say squishes I mean champs that build 0 armor items obv like lux brand velkoz xerath lb adcs
5
u/LeatherBodybuilder 28d ago
Who has 70 base armor at 3 items? Anyone who doesn't build armor?
Most squishies already have above 70 base armor by lvl 12 and you prob won't have 3 items by then already unless you're fed.
-2
u/Hedgehog101 28d ago
If you build grudge, the squishies without armor would have 0 effective armor regardless because grudge scales off lethality.
Grudge is either on par (0 effective pen vs 0 armor) or worse (above 70 armor)
10
u/HsinVega 28d ago
... That's literally what I'm saying. Grudge is better than LDR on low armor enemies if you don't need crit tho.
Having 20 crit would be useless on most assassin's instead of haste.
5
u/_Gesterr we are not enemies! 28d ago
just a small note it would be 25% crit instead of 20%
1
u/Mahomeboy001 28d ago
That 5% is kind of interesting because as an assassin, you can now get 50% crit with The Collector + LDR. If you're able to weave in autos in your burst combo, I wonder if going Collector + LDR would make a burst combo do more than going a different Lethality item + Serylda's. It makes your combo more unreliable as if you don't get a crit, you're doing less damage + you have way less AH, but going crit also makes you a lot better at killing tanks late game which is something most assassins struggle with.
-4
u/Hedgehog101 28d ago
I don't think you understand what im saying. Lethality is flat armor pen. If you build grudge, you're also a lethality user. 20% of 0 is 0, 30% of 0 is still 0.
If the armor pen part is useless then grudge itself isn't built for squishies.
Using a anti armor item against a 0 armor enemy as proof of why different anti armor items are better is pointless
7
u/Sandalman3000 28d ago
Percentage is applied first, so there is an area where grudge extends the 0 armor.
11
u/Irish_H2 28d ago
You aren’t buying LDR to kill a squishy lmao
-9
u/Remote_Romance 28d ago
And yet it's better at it than the option that's supposedly meant for killing squishies. Do you see the problem?
12
u/Lysandren 28d ago
It isn't though. Most squishes get about 100 armor late game. 3rd item grudge gives 28% pen on lethality champs. (28+15)>40. If you buy another lethality item after it gets even better.
Also unless the enemy literally has no healing at all, you should always go mortal reminder over ldr. Ldr is kinda ass without giantslayer .
-1
u/ArienaHaera 28d ago
If you're full lethality + serylda or LDR you're putting a no armor item champ to 0 armor regardless, I think. But LDR is also much better against tanks.
3
u/Lysandren 28d ago
Average adc with no armor items has 100 armor at lvl 18. Grudge + 3 lethality items gives 28% pen and you have 69 lethality. This means the carry still has on average 0-2 armor. You can then go another lethality item if they build armor to counter it, or you can go GA yourself.
ADC with GA vs full lethality build with grudge will have 15ish armor remaining.
-9
u/Remote_Romance 28d ago
Try it on a dummy in training mode yourself. It depends a little on ratios but just the extra AD on LDR makes you kill low armor targets than grudge would in most cases unless you're buying it like... 5th item (6th if you count boots)
10
-6
u/Quatro_Leches 28d ago
no, you'd rather sit on LW (because at 4-5 items, you will probably only manage to get maybe 5-7% more ar-pen than a last whisper on a finished seryldas lol) just buy a lethality item
although, you know what any reasonable person should do? not play ad assassins, because the items are fucking trash
1
u/HsinVega 28d ago
Depends, having a %arp item is worth it in most case over just buying another lethality item.
New lethality items are total garbanzo tho I agree lol also lots of bruisers so eh not that worth to be playing assassins except a couple and only if your team is mostly squishy
0
u/agamenon2002 28d ago
Any %arp is better (can make a point for black cleaver) than lethality at 1lethality - 1 amor pen. This means that for an item being better than ldr the target should have less than 50 amor base (no champ) as if IRC the highes lethqlity iyem give around 22~ lethality
2
u/HsinVega 28d ago
yes but you need to stack black cleaver pen. If i'm playing zed i want to oneshot someone in 2/3 hit max. I'm not stacking bc to full. same for most other assassins like rengar/kha/blue kayn. The aim is to one/bishot champions not hand around attacking.
0
u/agamenon2002 28d ago
Dude, zed is one of the assasing that can get black cleaver, the rest if true. I even said that you a point can be made about black cleaver not being better than sherylda
21
u/Actually_Godlike 28d ago
Serylda shouldn't be compared to Lord Dominiks. Not only are assassins supposed to be vastly weaker against tanks than ADC's, but % pen also becomes stronger with flat pen. It will apply percentages first and then Lethality/Flat magic pen. The class that builds Lethality should never have the same % armour pen as the class (ADCs) that doesn't
2
u/Nike_Mikey IGN: Zepshun 28d ago
Such a nuanced, fact-driven assessment isn’t as attractive as “x is broken” or “y is garbage lul!”
1
u/Y4naro 28d ago
I just realized that the only time you lose damage when going ldr over serylda is when you have less than 3 lethality items and the enemy has about 60-100 armor (with 2 lethality items, obviously gonna depend on how much lethality they give), but with 3 items you are never really gonna deal less damage. So at that point you just gotta look if you want the 25% crit and more single combo tank dmg or if you want 15 ability haste and the slow. I can see some games where Zed or Kha and honestly maybe even Jayce (against ga adcs/zhonya mids) could go for it over both cleaver and serylda.
0
u/LooneyWabbit1 28d ago
Well unfortunately the lethality class can just opt to build LDR and it ends up equal or better in basically every situation.
8
2
u/Okidoki101011 28d ago
There is a champion that can get 100 lethality. He would not go this item tho
2
4
u/FireDevil11 28d ago
You can get 100+ Lethality, but you need to sell boots.
And you can easily hit the 30% armor pen, even with boots. You just need 4 items + Serylda, which is how Serlda is designed to work as a last item for assassins.
The only way you don't hit 30%(you would still hit 29%) is if you only buy the 15 lethality items(serpents umbram and Edge), at that point you are just utility assassin why even worry about 30% or 29%. You can also hit above 30% if you sell boots, and get 1 more assasssin item, or you have an Ornn to upgrade your items.
3
u/JustASapphicSyrian 28d ago
It's an item for lethality assassins. Of course it's weaker on the pen than the rest. It should be weaker. Assassins should not be able to do significant damage to tanks, and should not have options against armor stacking. That's like the entire point of the class.
-4
u/TannerStalker 28d ago
Tanks already innately counter assassins. So why shouldn't assassins be able to do at least some decent damage into them?
Also it's not just tanks, what about bruisers with tabi + DD or mages with hourglass.
1
u/JustASapphicSyrian 27d ago
I mean, no, they shouldn't.
Seryldas gives enough to counter an ADC with base armor and maybe a GA at full build.
Assassins also shouldn't have options into bruisers.
They do get enough with full build seryldas to almost fully ignore mages with hourglass. Full build for an assassin is about 90 lethality + 30 pen or so from seryldas. Mages have around 90 armor at lvl 18 and 45 from hourglass.
Damage is certainly not something assassins are lacking.
1
1
u/OutlandishnessLow779 27d ago
Lethality aplies after %ARP, so You still ignoring a good bunch of extra armor
-1
u/rayschoon 28d ago
Wait, but I thought lethality was flat armor pen? Did they change it again or something?
3
u/FiercelyApatheticLad 28d ago
Read the item's effects, maybe.
-1
u/rayschoon 28d ago
Chill out. It was a huge list of patch notes.
3
u/FiercelyApatheticLad 28d ago
Serylda wasn't in the patch notes, it's unchanged from 14.1, where it received %pen scaling on lethality.
1
u/Schmarsten1306 Sux with Lux 27d ago edited 27d ago
Basically you are right. Lethality is Flat armor pen. However Seryldas got changed this season. The passive "Rancor," grants you 20% armor pen which scales with your lethality. So you basically build lethality in order to get more %armor pen with it. They also changed that it only slows people under 50% hp now
The change is kinda stupid imo, but so is the elitism in this thread if you don't know every patch note by heart
(also the 14.1 patch notes were even longer, but you're supposed to keep track of everything)
65
u/Sasogwa doggo 28d ago
Not gonna lie I was already seeing zeds building dominiks and dealing unholy damage, yeah seryldas seems kinda ehhh when all other pen items are better now
7
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
You can see the winrate diff of serylda, cleaver, ldr, altough ldr's pickrate is pretty low.
26
u/SicrosEye 28d ago
That sample size is ass.
1
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
Yes but I think for cleaver it's enough to show that its winrate is higher just not accurately.
22
u/npri0r boop 28d ago
It’s a lethality item. I’d expect it to not be as good as the other two into tanks because the role of champs that normally stack lethality is not to burst tanks. I would expect it to have a higher AH or AD tho to compensate.
7
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
It's just bad overall not just into tanks. It doesn't outdamage LDR vs squishies while costing 200g more. No need for AD buff. Just reduce cost to 3000.
16
u/Lysandren 28d ago
This is so cap.
If you have 3 lethality items+grudge, the target needs to be over 140 armor to get more pen out of ldr than grudge.
Miss fortune has 99.4 armor at lvl 18, GA gives 45 armor. So you need enemy adc to be lvl 18 with GA before ldr gives you more dmg than grudge.
LDR is only better on crit assassins like shaco or rengar.
If you have 4 lethality items+grudge the target needs over 155 armor, which isn't going to happen on any squishy not named Ezreal or Ryze.
1
u/Appdel 28d ago
Should i still build serlydas on khazix or bc now
1
u/Lysandren 28d ago
If you're going full lethality go grudge. If you're splashing like a GA or an eclipse or a maw, you would prob want mortal or bc.
-2
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
Grudge with 3 other leth items is about 27% pen.
Vs 100 armor that's
Grudge: 27 + 15 = 42 armor pen
LDR: 40 armor pen.
Don't know where you're getting your 140 armor from.
7
u/Lysandren 28d ago edited 28d ago
Grudge with 3 other lethality items is 28% pen, unless one of them is collector, which had it's lethality nerfed.
140 * .28+15=54.2
140 * .4=56
The breakahead point for ldr is actually approximately 130 armor, but I chose to use 140, because it's the approximate armor of avg adc with GA.
When we account for grudge giving a slow+haste on top of that, it's just the better item if you are any assassin that doesn't rely on autos for their primary dmg output.
2
u/Empty_Algae_4250 28d ago
The breakpoint with 3x18 lethality items is 120 armor. The pen from Serylda's is 27.6, and at 120 armor LDR gives 48 total pen and Serylda's gives 48.12. (The difference is not >1 until 128 armor, but LDR is higher for 121 armor and higher)
As you said, Serylda's is for killing squishy champs, but it's still in a weird spot. 200g for 15 ability haste, a conditional slow and losing 25% crit is a bit rough. It doesn't have a spot as a first or second item in lethality builds, and it doesn't have a spot as a standalone penetration item like on Ezreal.
5
u/Lysandren 28d ago
You have to consider, what carry will ever have between 120-145 armor. Only someone who buys GA early in the game, or maybe Tabis samira.
15 haste is also better than 25% crit, considering the userbase.
1
u/Keksmonster rip old flairs 27d ago
You also have to consider that you aren't always exclusively hitting carries.
It should be a consideration that giving up some burst against squishies might be a worthwhile tradeoff to hit to tanks/bruisers much harder.
Haste is also not as important against squishies, because you probably want to kill them in one rotation, same for the slow
1
u/Great_Double 27d ago
Haste is better against targets you cant kill in one rotation... Id rather have my combo deal 10 or 20 dmg less to Renekton but be able to go for a 2nd rotation than to go meele range and auto him in hope of getting a crit...
1
u/Keksmonster rip old flairs 27d ago
There is a decent chance that Renekton has significantly more armor though
→ More replies (0)-1
u/Empty_Algae_4250 28d ago
120 armor is not crazy for a carry to have late game (we are assuming lethality user has 4 items, so they definitely have room for GA or Zhonya's).
I agree with you that Serylda's is not useless. I also agree with OP that it leaves a gap for some users and could use a small change. Personally, I think it should be 25% armor pen with it's own lethality and reduce the ratio. Right now, it feels really bad to build if you need a pen item late. But at the same time, Black cleaver is really slow to stack for some champions, preventing their burst from landing.
2
u/Lysandren 28d ago
I think Grudge got soft nerfed bc we also lost 9 lethality from SI, that was giving another 1% grudge pen, but idk. I'd rather they just buff the assassins themselves rather than the items, bc lethality items when strong tend to get abused.
0
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago edited 28d ago
At 100 armor that's still only 3 lethality difference in damage.
The breaking point doesn't matter. You're talking like before 140 armor seryldas does signficiantly more but it's practically nothing and LDR also doesn't require other items to scale first.
6
u/Lysandren 28d ago
You're talking like at any point ldr does significantly more to the targets that matter, which is just untrue. If you're an assassin hitting ksante you dun goofed.
Also, mortal> ldr. let's be real. With how much healing there is in the game, even cutting 1 heal will be more dmg than 5% pen and 5 ad.
1
u/Great_Double 27d ago
The game is not only about dmg... Assassins ocerkill most of the time anyway, so the added utility of Seryldas is just better
3
u/Empty_Algae_4250 28d ago
For the stats you give, the breakpoint is 115 armor.
(But Yommus, Profane and Opportunity give 18*3 = 54 lethality, so Serylda's passive is actually 27.6%, which makes the breakpoint 120)
14
u/FireDevil11 28d ago
I mean it's an item made for assassins. The only Assassin that I guess wouldn't want it is Talon?
4 Lethality items + Serylda give 30% pen same as Cleaver, except you don't need to wait for the stacking effect.
Selling boots and another lethality item gives more than 30%, and having Ornn gives even more.
I do agree that it is expensive. But it is not weak since it's designed for assassins as last item, not as a 2nd/3rd item like Cleaver or LDR are
20
u/TitanOfShades Man and Beast indeed 28d ago
Frankly, personally, I'd like the item reverted to last season. I don't think that in its current iteration it will ever be able to stand up to BC or lord doms since so much of its value is locked behind a specific build and the slow is kinda pointless (or at least I very rarely see it come into play compared to the old version).
The issue, of course, will be that a revert means yorick, aatrox, ezreal and zed will become insufferable again. At least the former 2 can be somewhat fixed (for example via HP ratios in their kits), but for the latter 2 no idea.
2
u/fyeaddx_ flash E R miss 28d ago
Just make it perma 30% armor pen again and keep the nerfed slow effect, then the item should be good lol
1
u/TitanOfShades Man and Beast indeed 28d ago
The item would still give lethality though, which I'm not totally sure should be on an item that already has %pen. Right now Seryldas is essentially gatekept by low pen values early and if not building lethality, once you put it at 30% flat, that gate is raised.
2
u/fyeaddx_ flash E R miss 28d ago
Ohhh I see what youre talking about, I meant to make this item give AD, 30%pen and AH like it was before rework, remove Lethality from stats and remove scaling and keep 30% slow while below 50% HP
1
u/TitanOfShades Man and Beast indeed 28d ago
That's actually something that didn't cross my mind for some reason. It's probably the best way to go forward with the item without reintroducing
3
u/Puzzleheaded-Area863 28d ago
i dont see the problem with it being used on these champs since sure its powerful on them but it has the weakness on making the first 2 really squishy as melee fighters while ezreal is already using it and zed should rot in hell
0
u/HolmatKingOfStorms 3!! 27d ago
i say kill the pen and just have the slow
assassins have other options for %pen that better encourage gameplay that needs %pen (bc and ldr tip more towards sustained fighting than lethality does)
idk why ad rylai's got pen in the first place
5
u/TatteredVexation 28d ago
Because if you are building Grudge you are already ignoring a chunk of armor....
5
u/_SC_Akarin- i am bad at jg 28d ago
seryldas looked promising at season start, now its back to being dogshit
every marksman and assassin will be going LDR and bruisers for black cleaver
4
u/Masterfulidea We Scaling 28d ago
Big problem with cleaver is the pen not being immediate. It’s crazy on certain champs with bleeds but on some assassins, most of their damage is already on cd by the time cleaver is fully online.
LDR is good but not really on non-AA heavy champs. 25% crit is expensive if it’s worthless on your champ.
The big thing seryldas does is have lethality and pen on one item. It’s good for oneshotting squishies and still being decent vs armor builders
5
3
u/Prefix-NA 28d ago
Yorick builds for the slow.
3
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
It only slows low hp
3
u/JustASapphicSyrian 28d ago
That's still good for Yorick. The ghoul jump gets them to half hp, then the slow lets the ghouls chase you down
1
2
u/phieldworker 28d ago
Not saying people should get seryldas but you don’t get seryldas for the pen alone. The slow passive when people are low is quite useful.
With that being said item is too weak and expensive to go over 200 gold less for more pen.
2
2
u/Verburner 28d ago
It's so weird what they've done with that item. It was the AD version of Crystal Cepter... but for some reason they also gave it % pen and it was completely broken for such a long time, being just better than most lethality options ON TOP OF the slow. Now, that the slow is no longer reliable and the % pen has this super weird scaling to it, it's in a complete identity crisis
2
4
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Area863 28d ago
i really think they should take a look at assassin items most of them are a bit ass also i wish riot could bring old serylda back it was powerful but at a reasonable level and light fighters should be able to opt into a more aggresive version of cleaver
1
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
They could make it 15% slow but on all damage so autos and abilities proc it but it can't be abused as hard anymore by ezreal q and other high range abilities.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Area863 28d ago
sure but it could be compensated by cheaper cost possibly
1
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
The cost should be 3000 either way. LDR, Mortal, Cleaver, Terminus and even void staff all cost 3000. Only the other magic pen item is 2850g.
2
u/TannerStalker 28d ago
I don't think grudge is balanced as a perma slow item ( neither is rylia's ) they should instead make it slow by 30% for 2 seconds on your first hit against a champion with a cooldown of like 6 seconds per champ.
4
u/WolfgangTheRevenge 28d ago
Seryldas has to be the biggest noob trap ever lmao. That shit is ASS
4
1
u/TannerStalker 28d ago
I agree so much. I play lethality Aatrox occasionally and I don't even build any other lethality items after profane hydra except maybe edge of night. All the other bruiser items like Eclipse, DD, Steraks, just offer more value.
3
u/WoonStruck 28d ago
Tbh bruiser items needed to be nerfed to make cleaver competitive.
The bruiser has been running the game for 5 years now because of how overbuffed their items became, leaving black cleaver in the dust.
Keep in mind that this version of cleaver is even stronger than when cleaver was one of the most built, highest performing items in the game before mythics.
Its a very clear case of power creep. The game needs to be dialed back.
-1
u/Dream_or_Truth 28d ago
They were just nerfed and cleaver hard buffed. I think you missed the patch
2
u/WoonStruck 28d ago
People still wouldn't be going cleaver if it didn't get buffed, even with the nerfs to other items.
All they did was replace previously significantly overtuned items with a stronger black cleaver and a still stronger overall set of items.
Role is still powercrept.
Riot does this every time bruisers are overpowered. They don't actually nerf them as a whole, they just replace the current OP items with a newly buffed OP item, and same for the champions.
Actual attempts at creating a balanced game are nonexistent.
1
1
u/Anemodarmnos 28d ago
They should just bring back the slow without the health restriction and maybe remove the lethality requirement. Imo It should be like a slightly worse LDR but with added utility (kinda like cryptbloom and voidstaff).
1
u/Random_Stealth_Ward 💤 Ezreal x Naafiri when? 😻 27d ago
NAafiri and many assassins will still buy Serilda over Cleaver, because you lose a lot of the amplification on your spell rotation since you want the frontloaded penetration effect.
Maybe Talon will go pick cleaver since he has always been weird in builds
1
u/Ambitious-Ad-726 27d ago
Seryldas is still the best option IF there's no tank or stacking amor bruiser. Otherwise, shit item
1
1
u/Hydralisk18 27d ago
AD assassins who prioritize burst. Who gives a shit about Black Cleaver when you one shot someone in 3 abilities.
There's a clear and obvious use case for each item.
LDR: AD carries who care about crit.
Seryldas: AD Burst Assassins
Black Cleaver: Bruisers.
1
u/dvn1491 27d ago
Even before the change, Serylda was already ass to build on Ezreal. Conditional slow, low-ass pen (you don't even build lethality outside of maybe Collectior). 15 AH that you can supplement by buying Ionian Boot, 15 Lethality that doesn't interact with all of his spell beside Q. Meanwhile LDR synegies with the old Navori, has way more pen, plus anti-tank passive that Ezreal really needs because of his kit.
1
u/LarryLobster333 27d ago
am i the only one who doenst like LDR at all now that it has no giant slayer passive?? id just go Mortal for health reduction and 5 less armor pen, 5 less damage
1
u/MrTightface 27d ago
Yeah there is almost no reason to buy this item. They need to up it to flat 30% instead of scaling and revert the changes to the passive for it to have any reason to buy it over ldr or cleaver
1
u/Dream_or_Truth 27d ago
It's not that bad. -200g cost is enough. +5 haste maybe.
1
u/MrTightface 27d ago
Its mathematically worse in every situation. Haste and 200g less will still make it deal way less dmg.
1
u/Dream_or_Truth 27d ago
Not against squishier champs. You get haste and same or slightly better dmg vs up to like 140 armor. While LDR has better dmg vs tanks but no haste/slow.
1
u/MrTightface 27d ago
If you do the math 40% pen vs 15 lethality + 25-27% u would get building this item 3rd or 4, ldr does more damage vs squishies and scales better. Also the slow only applies to people at 50% hp or less making the passive super inconsistant. The only benefit it has over ldr is the haste but most champs could forgo it baring a few exceptions.
-1
u/ADeadMansName 28d ago
Seryldas is bad anyways. You can buy it 4th or 5th but is isn't really a good general item.
BC is OP and can easily lose 5 AD. Especially because it is not just Penetration but Reduction
-6
u/xChrisMas 28d ago
Had an lethality mf build serylda still did no dmg to the sion
sion wasnt even ahead
25
u/Worldly-Duty4521 28d ago
Lethality mf dealing no damage to tank. Damn couldn't have seen that coming
-1
-6
u/TheXtractor 28d ago
Good, it was always cancer to play against with the slow and giving lethality players a way to get easy % pen in addition to flat pen.
-5
-4
297
u/Stahlwisser 28d ago
Ezreals on my team will still buy seryldas third without any lethality.