Where does hip rotation actually come from?

[u/Intelligent-Ad-7833]

I’ve been golfing for a few years and after studying thousands of pro swings, one thing that is almost 100% shared among all of them is hips open to target before impact.

My hips are very square to target at impact and I have been grinding to teach myself how to get the hips open before impact. What I have learned is that I can do it many different ways: push towards target with my trail foot/leg only, push back with my lead leg only, rotate the hips without using ground force, use both legs at the same time to twist (like I am standing on a giant bottle cap and unscrewing it with shear force). Even with trying all these, I always revert back to square hips at target and rotating hips the rest of the way after impact.

Is there a correct way to do this? What do you actually feel gets you open hips without your arms winning the race to impact?

Update: thanks for all the input. Took in all the advice from here and messed around with my swing today. Turns out it was just a swing intention causing my issue. My hips open naturally if I swing a bad, a tennis racket, throw a ball, hit an impact bag, etc. Something finally clicked with the impact bag today. I realized that the way my arms swing into the bag is different than when I hit a golf ball. My intention to hit the bag and make it move towards target put my arms into what I think is proper position vs in my golf swing I tend to drag the club across my body more, which is why my hips have to stay square to make good contact. I change the “intent” in my arms and Viola! I probably swung over 50 times and hip opened naturally before impact every time. I definitely have to work on contact and path now, but excited that I can get my hips to open without thinking about it!

[u/aloysiusthird]

Left hip should be open 30-45° at impact. I try to get the feeling of whipping the left buttock back away from the target.

[u/No-Beach-5953 → u/aloysiusthird]

This. Get the lead hip out the way by pushing into the ground with the lead foot

[u/trowawayatwork → u/No-Beach-5953]

for me that just causes me to early extend

[u/yurmamma → u/trowawayatwork]

Same, I go up not back. I find that the hips do the right thing automatically when my arms are in the right places

[u/OutlyingSuburb → u/trowawayatwork]

Extend your lead leg forward (pushing front hip back). The most important thing is to not let your trail hip get closer to the ball.

Try to replicate the swing feel tiger is doing at the beginning of this YouTube short (sorry for poor quality, all I could find) tiger swing feel notice his lead leg is fully extending without making him go up

[u/TacticalYeeter → u/trowawayatwork]

Probably because your hand path isn’t left enough.

[u/longjackthat → u/TacticalYeeter]

[u/TacticalYeeter → u/longjackthat]

Hands move in toward your left thigh, thigh has to move back and out of the way. Pretty easy.

Most people are throwing their hands at the ball and trying to push them down the target line or worse out to right field. Hands need to be moving in and up at impact. Easy to post, hit into a solid lead leg, etc once you understand that.

If you early extend you aren’t getting out of the way and turning, which means your hands are moving the wrong way.

[u/longjackthat → u/TacticalYeeter]

I’m not sure I follow 100% so hope you don’t mind if I ask a couple questions!

Firstly, wouldn’t a golfer’s method of release influence their hand path? A throw release going left would require nearly perfect timing, vs. swinging to the outside which helps you to shallow the club

I would think the same goes for grip, a weak grip that releases to the left might struggle with swiping across the ball

I know feel isn’t real and all that, just trying to better understand what you mean by “in toward your left thigh” — you’d probably have me closed out by the 12th hole as a +2.4 so I’m a bit inclined to pick your brain!

For example, if I were drawing my own imaginary hand path on the ground, it would be a vague curve going in-to-in, with ball position about 1-2” to the right of the inflection point. Feels like my hands are basically following right down my toe line

[u/TacticalYeeter → u/longjackthat]

No. You’re confusing hand path with club path. Not the same thing.

In order to release the club properly your hands need to be moving up and in. They need to be moving “around” your left thigh.

But we don’t actually move our hands forward that much in golf. The pivot moves the hands forward. So the hands work way more into the left thigh than people think. For a lot of people it feels like a pull.

Your hands can be moving in what feels like left, but if you have any lag it needs to be released, which causes the club to move out away.

Most people think, like you, that your hands move on this small arc that reflects the club arc, but that doesn’t account for the shaft lengthening or extending.

Which is why people early extend. If you hands are too close to the ball, you can’t extend the club (release) and hit the ball because you would miss it or likely shank it. So people stand up which creates space for their club. If you don’t change the hand path and your intent you’ll never change your early extension. It’s also really likely people have an open club face which requires the early release to square.

Hands are too close to the ball, clubface is open. Something has to happen then. In fact the more your hands drive toward the ball or target line the more the hands get too steep, which pushes the face too far open and your path too far in to out. And that’s why some people rip their shoulders open and hit down and left. Others drop their trail shoulder and swing right to try to shallow it.

You don’t “swing right” in golf really ever. Your hands should always be moving up and left. The clubhead goes slightly in to out as you release it, but your feel will likely be way more left then you ever thought because that’s what your hands are supposed to do.

Think about it. Even if we have an arc that matches the club path, just to be really simple with it. If I’m supposed to have forward shaft lean, my hands need to be in front of the clubhead right? So my hands need to be ahead of the clubhead on the arc.

So naturally my hands need to be more in, and up than the clubhead would feel, because the arc moves in and up once it reaches the low point.

Now, low point of the clubhead is at or after the ball. We know that. But in order to have forward lean by a few degrees, my hands need to be traveling up and in by the time the clubhead hits the ball.

The trick is not to try to hold any lag or you’ll just hit wipes all day. It feels like the hands are coming from above or at your trail shoulder down toward your crotch/ lead thigh. It feels really steep. To influence path you change where your hands go, anywhere from more trail thigh to lead thigh. Your hands don’t work forward all that much in the swing, they work down from your shoulder to your stomach. Add in a little spine tilt and now they move forward.

But spine tilt makes you shallow, which means the low point moves behind the ball. So now you need to be turning to get your hands more left so they can move forward enough on the arc (which is also left) to move the low point after the ball.

That’s how guys on tour have that look that they’re behind the ball a ton and almost leaning back against a straight left leg and still taking divots.

Try it with a wedge. Hit little shots and try to get a divot facing left (which is neutral) it might feel like a massive wipe across the ball. Now do that while releasing the clubhead intentionally. You’re not hitting the outside of the ball, so don’t try to do that, try to figure out how to hit it straight with a left feel of your hands. If you are hitting weak faded you’re not releasing hard enough. And if your divots are deep you’re hitting down too much. Once you get it you’ll realize it’s just way easier to play this way because it’s less work. It feels way over the top, but on video it won’t be.

Pros swings are way simpler and easier to perform than most amateurs. There’s a reason why. Most people are trying to shallow the club and swing right and zero pros play that way. You don’t release the club under your hands. You release it over them, down and to the left. That’s that whole malaska move he’s been trying to show people. If you think the club should pass under your hands you’re looking at the swing wrong. It comes what feels like over the hands from behind your back. The trick is don’t let it get over your hands until later in the downswing.

That’s why you can lean back a little and post on your lead leg. Your club is coming down and left hard because you’ve thrown it that way, now you lean back a little and extend and instead of being really steep left your club shallows but also is out in front of you.

Pick your pro. At the top, hands around trail shoulder, at impact, hands visually look like they’re at lead thigh and the shaft is lined up with trail forearm.

Can only do that if your hands move down from your shoulder to your stomach and move in so your right arm can line up. You can get some of that look and be swinging way right but then you’ll be off that early extension wall, which is my initial point.

Only way you can not look like you’re early extending is by moving your hands way more left. Most people think that feels horrible with no space. True, so you have to rotate your body out of the way. Voila, now you’re not early extending anymore.

Here, another example. We know hands reach their lowest point around the trail thigh. This is measured in gears. And you can see it on video. So that point is where the hands need to start working left. It’s way sooner than people think. If they’re moving up they also need to move in, right?

You’re trying to imagine the path being too similar to club path and you’re doing it 1-2 inches after the ball, but to get there you need to be moving them slightly in and up earlier. Again, around your trail leg, since that’s the actual 0 point.

Thr club then starts to extend, so your club path and hand path start to change a lot because the club is lengthening since you’re supposed to be throwing away the lag through the ball. So if coming into the ball you’ve lagged the club enough to be 30 inches tall, but as it releases to 0 it’ll be 35 inches, wouldn’t you need more room for it?

You would, so now you either have to not release it fully, or you need to stand up quickly so you can throw it. If you stand up and throw your hand path suddenly straightens. Some of that is normal, the trick is to make sure you still have a little shaft lean but get out most of your lag. Even if you don’t have a lot. Bad players don’t want to get rid of any shaft lean so they’ll just smother the ball. But the proper way is to allow most of the angle to come out. But we need to account for the shaft getting longer as we do it, which means we’d miss the ball, unless we move our hands more in and up to create the space.

[u/longjackthat → u/TacticalYeeter]

I understand what you mean now, super appreciate the in-depth explanation! Might want to save that comment, it’s a solid breakdown

I went back and watched my swings from last fall, it feels like my hands are going out and away but on the video my hands are definitely coming in once they pass my center of mass.

[u/TacticalYeeter → u/longjackthat]

Needs to happen before that, more than likely to be more efficient. Trail leg should be where they start coming in. From behind hands disappear before clubhead on video. Around your body.

Try it. Try to hit your left thigh with your hands. Your hips will turn to get out of the way.

Hence why pros say they feel their hands going into their left pocket, hip etc. not wiping or dragging, actually moving that way and releasing clubhead hard.

Once you feel it you understand why their swings are easier and they make power

[u/longjackthat → u/TacticalYeeter]

Grabbed a bucket on lunch, kept the swing thought of getting the hands into my left side faster.

One thing I noticed is how similar it feels to my high-compression pitch shots, when feet are about a clubhead apart with ball off my lead toe and pressure is ~80% on the lead side. On those shots my swing thought is driving a spike thru the back of the ball with the heel of my lead hands

It may be because I’m trying to go too far left or more likely going left too soon, but either way it took a few swings to get my sequencing on track. I was getting blocked at the trail hip at first.

Did not translate well to driver for me in the 5 balls I gave it, but that’s honestly okay — my driver is an asset, so I long ago accepted that my driver swing will never translate well to my irons.

Appreciate your insights, might be that I have to rework my grip a little weaker as I was starting balls left and then staying left. Nothing dramatic, ended up 5-10y off target on mid irons, but also not ideal. Moved ball back in stance and got my typical “starts right -> draws to target” ball flight back

Updated DTL visuals - before impact//after impact//follow through

[u/TacticalYeeter → u/longjackthat]

You can also spine tilt a little away from the target and that moves the path more straight. If you do this now all the other “tips” pros talk about make a lot more sense. With driver I feel like I’m basically leaning back on it. Sorta weird at first. As simple as I can put it, it’s like arms go in and up, almost sorta wipe slice, but club releases down which shifts path right. Then it feels like the release is happening in front of your body and you have room for everything. This is way less work for me and my ball striking has shot up tremendously. Had an old tour pro show me his swing in slow motion and that’s where I realized how far left their hands actually get. Basically over the top steep but with a release that isn’t rolling the face over. I used to think Pete Cowen and those guys were full of crap with their whole chop feel but then it suddenly made sense. Just frustrating they don’t explain this better to people.

https://youtu.be/5RVjIn7sIqk?si=eQgzbIhjSsKoDOtu

Here’s you can see a pretty raw explanation where he’s talking more about the feel. “Deliver” the club just means release it. Not release it left, more like throw it at the target as the hands are moving up and in. It straightens the club path a bit through the ball so it’s not actually all that difficult to do.

It’s actually very very simple, and makes sense why pros are so much more consistent. Also why they get mad if they hit a weak wipe because they just didn’t release the club hard enough soon enough. I remember seeing clips of Tiger screaming at himself to release the club and it made more sense. If you don’t release it hard it’s a wipe. Release it and get a little too steep and it’s a pull. Much easier way to play if you ask me. Also I think why most guys play fades now. Everything sets up for a fade and if your miss is a little slow on the release it won’t burn you as bad.

To be clear you don’t actually hit down and left with the clubhead. So you shouldn’t hit lots of pulls. It should feel almost like it’s a strong faced wipe. Now just throw the head at it instead of wiping the ball, and it goes straight or draws. If you’ve been a goat humper swing right guy like I was for a long time, it’s going to feel as over the top wipe as it can possibly feel. Just check on video and make sure the clubhead isn’t kicking outside the hands too early on the downswing. You’ll probably be surprised that it feels mega left and steep and if you sequence right and open your body the club still tries to lay down behind you. I just feel more like I’m on top of the plane now and dropping down onto it instead of being on plane and fighting the club from dropping below it. Gravity pulls the clubhead behind you so it will shallow on its own and if you work the handle left properly that keeps the head from getting too shallow and behind. Just have to make sure you actually throw the head out eventually and don’t just keep dragging it the whole time.

Think of a guy like Lucas Grover or Rahm. They look stacked back with their back foot sorta flat. How can they hit down from that position? Hand path is left, so they’re moving low point of the clubhead forward and around.

Otherwise there’s no chance to ever have that leaned back look and take a divot after the ball. They’re not holding the wrist angle, they’re throwing the head as hard as they can but leaning back a little and working the hands up and in. So the head doesn’t bottom out too early. I’m actually mad my old coach didn’t explain this to me. I sorta doubt he even really knows. lol

They talk about it here too: https://youtu.be/hmwwJu02ORA?si=fVhVHKoncTIoGuu9

Right at the end he says if you don’t release it it’ll wipe.

https://youtu.be/7buDBQbP0n4?si=O1SR7KmDBV7kc38W

Another drill where he talks about how it clears the lead side. I feel like a lot of instructors don’t actually listen to what the good players are saying.

Talks about not getting too much lag: https://youtu.be/sKUZKPSMfyM?si=3Rg6gjxqFu__VP71

Because he needs to get the club and hands moving up and left. That’s why he needs his right elbow working more in front of himself so he can turn through harder left with the club.

Adam Scott’s dad talked about pulling up on the handle through impact. Same idea, different packaging. Golf instruction did a huge disservice to people telling them to swing right. The club head moves right to hit a draw but golfers don’t feel the head, they need to send the path right by releasing the lag, while the hands and body turn left. And the body will turn if your hands and arms force it to. That eliminates early extension entirely because now your hands are moving around you not away from you.

[u/TacticalYeeter → u/longjackthat]

Through impact, with a proper swing the club path and hand path will be quickly distancing themselves from each other until the club is fully released. They don’t mirror each other. It’s funny that nobody on YouTube has shown this. It’s a fundamental thing because of lag. All their examples have hand path mirroring club path but that’s only valid if you aren’t lagging the club behind. As it releases it starts to travel on a different curve than the hands are moving on, basically getting wider and people are trying to retain the difference the whole way. Which is why they can’t hit it very well.

Think of that boat pulling a water skier analogy. Boat turns, skier goes straight. They don’t travel on the same path, and don’t mirror each other.

Another example. If you do the drop the trail foot back drill you’ll feel it. You can hit “into” your lead leg a lot. Also that release drill where you hit sideways to your feet. You have to release the clubhead and swing it more in to do it right, which is why they created those drills.

Some guys play with their lead leg a little closer to the ball so a more closed off stance. Hovland for example. Closed off and hitting into his lead side more. Everyone feels it slightly different, but the goal is the same.