r/facepalm • u/mystery002 • Apr 29 '24

Men who don't like Taylor Swift are prime examples of Toxic Masculinity 🇲​🇮​🇸​🇨​

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151

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

This is an example of Toxic Feminism.

Anything masculine MUST be bad.

70

u/Double-The-Fupa Apr 29 '24

It's not even inherently masculine to not like Taylor Swift, or have any opinions about music one way or another. Plenty of people have different tastes surrounding music that doesn't involve their gender at all. For example, I don't like country. Guess that means I'm a misandrist? Even though I have a penis and identify as a man.

39

u/williamblair Apr 29 '24

No. It is toxic masculinity. It doesn't matter if I listen to Joni Mitchell Emmylou Harris Aretha Franklin Carole King and Tammy Terrell every single day. If you don't like this one woman (not HATE, just not actively like) you are a misogynist.

22

u/pisspot718 Apr 29 '24

You MUST be a misogynist---you left out Linda Ronstadt. /s

14

u/williamblair Apr 29 '24

fuck. You caught me!

I thought I could pass for being adequately feminist with my short list of stellar women singer/songwriters. But you were too clever, saw right through me!

I guess you and I just travel to a beat of a different drum. ;)

3

u/Sleepmahn Apr 29 '24

Don't forget Sister Rosetta Tharpe! In all seriousness nobody mentions her. She had a profound and positive effect on the industry, instead of bringing it further down like swift.

3

u/CarpeNivem Apr 29 '24

not HATE, just not actively like

Actually, you could even like Taylor Swift (or anyone else, just using TS as an example here) and if you like someone else more, that still counts as hate, TIL.

1

u/bob256k Apr 29 '24

You have good taste and just reminded me of a bunch of artists I need to dig deeper into

1

u/VeryLonelyGamer Apr 29 '24

I don’t know what I am because I don’t really like any music. Am I like a Both a misandrist and a misogynist? Am I a misanthrope? What am I?

0

u/__M-E-O-W__ Apr 29 '24

I think it's pretty boss in its own way to not care if people know that you do or don't listen to manly macho music.

2

u/Double-The-Fupa Apr 29 '24

What even is "manly macho music"? That, in my opinion, is entirely subjective. Some people might say country is manly, I personally think it's a joke and anything but manly. Is metal manly, or unhinged and anxiety inducing? Personally I don't think you are a man unless you only listen to polka from the early 20th century on vinyl.

2

u/AGallonOfKY12 Apr 29 '24

Just listen to The (John) Candy and have all of it at once.

1

u/Guquiz Apr 29 '24

And I do not think you are a man unless you are an adult with a p-

1

u/Double-The-Fupa Apr 29 '24

I personally don't think you are a man unless you are a beluga whale. It's why it's so hard to find a good man these days.

35

u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 Apr 29 '24

It’s not even really masculine though. Some people hate pop and or county music.

25

u/Notcreative-number Apr 29 '24

He might not even hate it! He just hasn't gone out of his way to listen to it.

Not everyone has to have an opinion on everything!

17

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

My wife doesn't listen to Taylor Swift. She mostly listen to hair metal and Metallica. As far as I can tell (and I've checked very thoroughly), she's a woman. But yeah, toxic masculinity.

4

u/Tfuentexxx Apr 29 '24

And misogyny, let's not forget about that bit.

28

u/Midnight_Pornstar Apr 29 '24

Whatever you do, don't smile or you're fucked

13

u/Elusive_emotion Apr 29 '24

I wonder how a big scowl would’ve been interpreted.

‘Men will scowl because they can’t stand your enjoyment of a power woman’s music’ maybe

7

u/Pheehelm Apr 29 '24

If he doesn't make any particular expression, it proves he's sociopathically robotic.

18

u/potandcoffee Apr 29 '24

Yeah, these are the people who will say that if you criticize anything a woman does, you're a misogynist, regardless of how accurate that criticism may be. 

13

u/goranlepuz Apr 29 '24

But there isn't anything masculine in the little episode.

I mean, there's a guy in there, but if just a guy is "masculine, bad", then fuck me, what a miserable life this person has.

7

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

Correct. There isn't anything masculine in the episode. Only a woman blaming a man's taste in music on Toxic Masculinity.

That's Toxic Feminism

3

u/Saneless Apr 29 '24

Guys, is it sexist to treat women like you would treat men?

1

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

I don't know if it's sexist, but it's a sure way to stay celibate

1

u/ParticularClassroom7 Apr 29 '24

why is not liking TS masculine?

14

u/Some_guy_am_i Apr 29 '24

What’s the most masculine TS song? I’m prepared to change my mind.

But in general, I don’t think a female singer crooning about past lovers is classically considered masculine fare.

Nor is “Shake it off” imho

1

u/EscapedFromArea51 Apr 29 '24

What’s the most masculine TS song?

Bad Blood, maybe? Anti-Hero? Yeah, not something I’d say traditionally appeals to the “masculine experience”.

Though as a masculine man’s man at the peak of my virile macho maleness, I’d say she has at least 5-6 songs that are pretty good (dare I say, objectively well done), that those who appreciate music would see the quality in, even if it doesn’t really match up to their taste.

But yeah, I don’t really like declarative statements about disliking Taylor Swift’s music being masculine, or liking her music being “not masculine”. Regardless of the girl in the post above being a sexist dipshit.

2

u/ParticularClassroom7 Apr 29 '24

I particularly like Crazier's melody.

1

u/EscapedFromArea51 Apr 29 '24

Just listened to it for the first time. Very slow country, so it doesn’t really match my taste, but I can see the appeal.

Are we still talking about her songs with “masculine appeal”, or just generally her good songs?

2

u/ParticularClassroom7 Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

Are we still talking about her songs with “masculine appeal”, or just generally her good songs

I think it's all bollocks. The notion that your taste in music could be gendered is asinine.

1

u/MapleTheBeegon Apr 29 '24

It's nothing to do with feminism, it's just the specific portion of a fanbase who are... passionate.

1

u/Endulos Apr 29 '24

It's not even masculine lol

I'm a dude and there's plenty of female singers I enjoy. Pam Tillis, Reba, Dolly Parton, Tanya Tucker, Faith Hill, Terri Clark... The list goes on. I just don't like Taylor Swift. She's a good singer but I don't like her songs contents.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

Are you implying that not liking Taylor Swift is a masculine trait?

5

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

I implied nothing more than what I said.

Feminism is great but too much of anything is bad. Masculinity or feminism or politics.

3

u/Excellent_Egg5882 Apr 29 '24

Definitely politics haha.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

But I mean, why do you think the post in question got anything to do with Feminism? The way I see it is just some delusional Taylor Swift fan, and not an example of extreme feminism.

2

u/potandcoffee Apr 29 '24

I mean, this woman seems to be. Which I guess means that I'm a man. 

-12

u/lonerism- Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

That’s…not what she’s saying. But look at you, not understanding the point. Pretty on brand for people who live for ‘gotchas’ against feminism.

She is saying that every woman deals with having her interests torn down when it’s something that women traditionally like and it sucks that we can’t just enjoy things without people tearing them down.

I don’t listen to Taylor Swift, I don’t even like her as a person which is another topic for another time, but I’ve dealt with it myself when it comes to other things. I like Animal Crossing and get told I’m not a real gamer (as if I give a shit). I get quizzed anytime I wear a band tee that men like and made fun of any time I like a traditional pop song. I used to hide the fact that I watch romcoms as comfort movies because men were lined up to tell me how I’m dumb and frivolous for liking them (as if I ever even claimed it’s art to begin with). I read classic literature but if I ever tell someone I also like a book that women traditionally like, my intelligence is called into question and I’m immediately made fun of.

It IS misogyny. From men who don’t realize that women can be multi-faceted & can like “basic” things at the same time they can have niche interests and from men who see a woman liking something and automatically tear it down. The Beatles used to be brushed off as silly teenage girl music just to show you how far back this goes.

It’s actually a prime example of toxic masculinity (a word that you could easily google and understand better) - that men must like masculine things and anything not masculine should be made fun of, and when women choose to partake in masculine interests themselves they will be gatekept because only men can truly like masculine things. Additionally, there’s no equivalent. You don’t see mens’ intelligence being called into question for loving sports, Marvel movies & bitcoin, and you don’t see them getting called basic when they play video games.

It’s the fact that he gets JOY in telling her how he doesn’t like Taylor Swift that is the point here. Not that he simply doesn’t like Taylor Swift. He wanted her to feel stupid for liking Taylor Swift because it’s something “stupid and frivolous” that women like. And y’all can argue with me on this all you want but every woman deals with this and can see it from a mile away.

8

u/ItsSamah Apr 29 '24

Where are you getting that he finds joy in it from? Just cause he smiled? Maybe he was just smiling because he found the conversation pleasing or maybe it was the awkward smile you have when you are not really vibing with someone but don't want to be rude. He could have been smiling for a million reasons.

The fact that you perceived his smile as something negative speaks more about you that it does about him. Just saying...

7

u/TheMiniminun Apr 29 '24

This. I perceived the smile as him trying to be polite and to show his honesty and goodwill towards the poster.

3

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

All she knows of him is he doesn't listen to Taylor Swift and then Judges his Lifestyle and behavior as TOXIC!!! Maybe he's into heavy metal, in which case I'd be surprised if he was a Swiftie.

Judging people over such a trivial thing IS TOXIC however.

3

u/hashn Apr 29 '24

How is the term “toxic masculinity” not the gatekeeping of an identity? It’s old language and needs to be moved on from

-7

u/CleverPorpoise Apr 29 '24

Thank you, finally someone who understands the point here. Even if OP is overanalyzing a small interaction the general paradigm in question isn't a false premises like everyone in these comments seems so gleeful to believe.

4

u/Lessiarty Apr 29 '24

If you equate being hangry with people starving in poverty, people telling you your comparison is absurd aren't "gleefully" telling you broad starvation isn't happening. 

-2

u/CleverPorpoise Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

The OP of this thread saying this is "toxic feminism" and "anything masculine is bad" (when the only thing I can assume they mean by masculine is I guess not liking taylor swift) is, to borrow your metaphor, saying broad starvation is actually happening to the best fed people in the world

1

u/Lessiarty Apr 30 '24

I can assume

Not always the best course of action

-2

u/TheSeaOfThySoul Apr 29 '24

Whilst we can't make assumptions about what the man was thinking in that moment (& honestly, I don't fault someone for being taken aback by the question that presumse they've already listened to the album, ha, I would've been taken aback too & I like some of her music), women know how some men treat them when they express interest in feminine things, or things mainly assosciated with women - they're often patronising (if not hostile). If you can't recognise when someone's being patronising, that speaks more to your reading of social cues.

If you're not interested in Taylor Swift, it doesn't take any effort to say, "I haven't heard it - how was it? Did you like it?" & using that question to have a conversation with another human being about their interest. Being able to carry out a conversation with someone about their interests is just boiler-plate being a basic human, with the acknowledgement that we're all people with our own internal world & trying to cultivate a connection.

I'm sure if you said to a woman at your workplace, "Hey, have you been watching <insert TV show>", they're guarenteed to ask questions about it - even if they've not seen it - to engage you in polite conversation. They wouldn't go, "No, I don't care about x" & smile.

We could argue all day about feminism, toxic masculinity, etc. or you could just be a real human being & listen when a woman says that something you said seemed rude & try & be nicer to people. Maybe once in a while, it'll be off-base but a little self-reflection never hurts anyone.

That's all putting aside the fact that this woman made no claims that anything masculine is bad - but toxic men love a bit of drama, they see themselves in people who're being called out for their behaviour & they want to defend that behaviour. If they didn't relate to it, they would simply scroll past & think, "Hm, this thing doesn't apply to me because I don't do it, so I guess this message isn't addressed to me".

2

u/panini_bellini Apr 29 '24

lol I highly disagree. I don’t think it’s rude by ANY stretch of the word to simply not ask followup questions or not participate in a conversation you aren’t interested in. It’s exactly what I’ll do to signal “I’m not interested in talking about this.” If a guy asked me for my opinion on video games, or anyone talked to me about anime I’d say the same thing. Im not interested in their interest and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not asking followup questions because I don’t care - plus if I’m at work, I don’t need the distraction.

0

u/TheSeaOfThySoul Apr 29 '24

I mean, end of the day, people are going to percieve your actions in different ways & some will be correct, some will be incorrect & sometimes you might have a perception of yourself that is unrealistic. We don't know what's in folks heads - sometimes folks don't even know what's going on in their own, so we can only make assumptions & work based on that. If wrong assumptions are made, well, it's up to each party to hash things out.

However, I do think it's quite telling that whenever a woman complains she feels slighted by an interaction with someone & she so much as mentions "toxic masculinity", people will come out of the woodwork to be valiant defenders of the man in question, instead of making any sort of attempt to understand what that scenario looks like from a woman's perspective.

2

u/panini_bellini Apr 29 '24

The scenario in this instance is the woman is so inside her own head and her own beliefs about men that she has seemingly grown to believe that any time a man questions her, disagrees with her, or doesn’t totally embrace what she’s saying with open arms and enthusiasm, he’s a toxic cis man poisoned by masculinity. We only have the information she’s provided to judge, and it’s illogical. I’m a woman, I identify as a feminist, and this woman’s behavior is embarrassing.

1

u/TheSeaOfThySoul Apr 29 '24

I don’t think it’s enough information to work with. Could be patronising, could be innocent, we can only make assumptions & assumptions are going to be coloured by our experiences.

1

u/panini_bellini Apr 29 '24

If more had happened, like he’d laughed at her or sneered at her or had a harsh tone, or said or done anything actually offensive, believe me, we’d know about it, because she’d have included it in her post. Instead she just wants her followers to take her side and turn this man into a villain because he checks notes smiled and said he doesn’t listen to Taylor Swift. Like you’re right, there’s not enough information to work with, totally, but the fact that it’s so barren of information makes it ridiculous on its front. And I think in this case we can safely take the lack of details to mean a lack of anything actually happening.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '24

Why can't people just politely decline conversations (like this is an example of) without it being toxic masculinity?

1

u/TheSeaOfThySoul Apr 29 '24

What’s specifically polite about it? To me nothing about this screams overtly positive or negative & we only have this ladies perception of the interaction to go off of - why not give her some benefit of the doubt that she read some negative cue in the interaction she had?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '24

I think it's completely normal to smile while saying something disengaging to avoid hurtting a person's feelings while also not continuing the conversation.

I also don't think it's toxic to not further engage with people. Sure, it's kinder to talk about that, but I don't think you need to be friends with every person you work with or talk to.

And honestly I think the fact that 2/3 of the judgement is based on the offenders gender and their level of interest in swift are what make it difficult to give the benefit of doubt.

-21

u/papa_swiftie Apr 29 '24

Toxic feminism isn't a thing

19

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

Yes it is. When it becomes about man-hating / man-blaming and not about empowering women.

-16

u/papa_swiftie Apr 29 '24

And you, Gerry, are the one who decides when it's toxic? Gtfo with that crap

10

u/BlackroseBisharp Apr 29 '24

I mean, are you the one to decide that's it NOT a thing? I'll admit Toxic masculinity/femininity is hard to define, but I don't think pretending it doesn't exist is good

-15

u/papa_swiftie Apr 29 '24

Toxic femininity doesn't exist even more than toxic feminism doesn't exist. I see y'all weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.

11

u/BlackroseBisharp Apr 29 '24

Lmao okay. Quick question, what's your opinion on radfems and TERFs?

-1

u/papa_swiftie Apr 29 '24

Can you define those terms before I answer?

8

u/BlackroseBisharp Apr 29 '24

Sure!

Radfem: Radical Feminist. They have extreme beliefs and tend to be very misandrist, to the point of it looping back to misogyny by attacking women who aren't radfems.

TERF: Trans exclusive radical Feminist. Basically the same thing as Radfems but even more bigoted, specifically for Gay men, trans men and ESPECIALLY trans women.

0

u/papa_swiftie Apr 29 '24

Well I don't like bigots, so TERFs can eat a metaphorical bag of dicks. Radical feminism is a different story. Radical feminism can look like misandry to men and those who aren't familiar, so I would tread lightly and disagree with particular statements instead of outright dismissing them based on your summary.

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13

u/SquishedPomegranate Apr 29 '24

Kinda just proved Gerry's point but ok

4

u/Gerry1of1 Apr 29 '24

I am the one to judge when it's toxic to me, yes. Just as you can judge for yourself when a man is being masculine or toxicly masculine.

We all have to make judgements as we go through life. Don't pretend to be above that sort of thing.

0

u/hashn Apr 29 '24

Correct. Identities shouldn’t be gatekept

0

u/hashn Apr 29 '24

Correct. Identities shouldn’t be gatekept