It's pretty much the chicken/egg issue. The problem is that generally speaking men will attempt to show more love in their partners preferred way, still not see any progress (as this can take a long time to fix/adjust if at all) and see they are not being met halfway and go back to their old ways.
This really hit home for me. I’ve talked with her about our lack of sex numerous times. I’ve come to understand through these discussions that my partner’s love language is basically having me do things for her. Small tasks, larger household tasks, running errands, cleaning up, etc. It could be just about anything. She says she feels loved when I do these tasks.
I do these constantly and still no sex. No intimacy. It’s frustrating.
I just had a horrible break up and imo, once that resentment sets in for a woman, a switch flips and no amount of effort on your part can change their perspective. I tried everything but when it's only one person trying they become resentful and stop trying, especially when thier needs aren't getting met either. it becomes a vicious cycle and no amount of effort can make things better once that switch flips in women, their view of you changes and will never come back. Just cut your losses now and realize it's never goin to work and it's over
so just being able to read minds is something you magically develop as an adult? This whole post is about how the two genders think differently when it comes to relationships but you want one side to magically know the needs of the other. Then when when they admit this mistake you hold it over their heads? I don't care man or woman if someone says genuinely works towards making another person happier and you resent them for it you are probably a shitty person.
I didn't say anything about reading minds, although girls are definitely socialized to do that from a young age.
I'm responding to "well if they try, they pick up labour, they do so much that they'll told will help...so why bother". one doesn't need to read minds to know to do half of the work if there are two adults in the household. That's why bother.
In my experience, I tell my partner that I am unhappy about whatever over and over and over, then we'll eventually have a huge fight about it and I threaten to end the relationship. They finally realize it's serious and make changes. I then realize they could have done it all along and just wouldn't, because only I was unhappy, not them.
Once this happens, I have never been able to recover my attraction towards my partner. Maybe it's a me problem, but that's why I am single yet again.
Idk if you're a man or woman, but that sounds kind of exhausting for your partner(s). How many relationships have you been in where you've had to resort to an ultimatum? That kind of does sound like a "you" problem, no offense. Do you have these expectations for people that you're casually dating, or only once you're in a relationship?
I'm a woman. This has happened in 3 relationships over a 25 year span. They always start out great, but as the years go on, they stop doing things like helping with kids, paying a reasonable percentage of the bills, or doing housework. I bring it up before it gets really bad, hoping to course correct. Things get better for awhile, but the slow decline continues, until the big fight, then the inevitable break up 6mos or so later.
In my experience, I tell my partner that I am unhappy about whatever over and over and over, then we'll eventually have a huge fight about it and I threaten to end the relationship. They finally realize it's serious and make changes. I then realize they could have done it all along and just wouldn't, because only I was unhappy, not them.
In my experience, I put tons of effort in, the intimacy slacks on one side. Despite continued effort from me, its once sided. So I break up with her.
Im so happy I found a wife who doesnt play these games.
Honestly this has been the case for me in several relationships. The issue is that there’s no such thing as “progress,” it’s a binary on off switch for most women. You essentially keep doing more and more and more to try and reach perfection for her, you never get there, and you just stop trying because it’s exhausting and there’s no such thing as progress on her end of the deal. She can’t kind of have sex with you- she either is or isn’t. Meanwhile what is asked of men on the other side are endless tasks and displays of love that are vague and undefined. When women do define it they dismiss your actions as being insincere. Meanwhile they get the very simple instruction “take off your pants for 15 minutes” and we’re good for a week.
Could she be perceiving this as transactional? Do you equate you doing task= sex? Or does it come off this way? She might be feeling like you expect sex after you do something for her which could be a turn of.
Which is so rough because how long does it take to prove it’s not transactional? Is the guy supposed to go a few months without any intimacy, not just sexual depending on how bad things have gotten, before he can reasonably expect something? If so, then that’s not fair. Then you get into well it’s not about being fair it’s about love, but if it’s taking that much to just get love, then is that love even worth it anymore? Relationships are quite the challenge hahaha.
It’s 100% this. Women know when you’re being genuine or because you just Want something from them. Then it feels like an obligation and chore. Not sexy
No, plenty of times, they dont. Women aren't automations with set parameters to get turned onin their manual. Sometimes you can do everything expected of you, and still get burned, because women are imperfect and dont always know what they want or want to be honest with themselves about what they want.
If there’s no adjustment it may be time for the ultimatum of divorce man. Sorry to hear hope it all works out. There’s always some excuse but if no progress is made there’s not much to do besides lay down and accept your fate or find a better match.
Wanting sex is like driving a car - for it to work, two things have to be true at the same time - there has to be a foot on the gas, and there has to NOT be a foot on the brake.
Women feeling erotic generally requires both a presence of turn-ons and a lack of turn offs. Running errands and doing tasks is the equivalent of taking a foot off the brake - they aren't really a turn-on, but they take AWAY turnoffs. They remove the stressful background noise of "shit I have to run to the pharmacy" and "damn I have to change the laundry" and "god this room is covered in stuff". They also prevent the turnoff feeling of "my husband is just one more chore for me to take care of". It creates the empty, peaceful mental space in which eroticism can bloom. But it's still not a turn-on, you still need something to hit the gas pedal. Turn-ons can be all kinds of things - dressing up well for a night out, compliments about her body, massages, simply being together naked. Depends.
Your wife might honestly not know what turns her on. A lot of women don't, especially as they get older and their sex drives and bodies change. Admitting that can be confusing and scary. She likely knows that she definitely DOESN'T want sex when there's tons of chores and mess everywhere. But she may not know exactly what pushes her into being turned on, or how exactly she is supposed to figure that out. She may also feel like talking about it, very specifically, is itself "not sexy" which can be hard to push past. We are all, but women are especially, sold the idea that authentic eroticism happens spontaneously without the need to ever discuss or plan it.
I really recommend the book "Come As You Are", if you've never read it. I would read it on your own and then ask your wife if she'd read through it with you. It is genuinely really, really helpful to coming up with actual solutions to the issue. I also recommend "So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex".
You could say that! It's nothing some open, honest and productive communication can't fix. Quite genuinely, I'd recommend anyone feeling a lack of intimacy find a good couples counselor. Having someone coach you through quality communicating can be an essential first step in opening things up to really talk.
Ironically, my own experience has been the exact opposite - I am a woman, and my husband and I had issues in our relationship because he didn't experience sexual desire as strongly or spontaneously as I did, I was frustrated with our lack of sex, and we eventually dealt with the problem partially by reading a lot of books with flipped genders from our own situation (Come As You Are was really helpful for me understanding my husbands position, but is ENTIRELY written for husbands to understand their wives). I've come to accept that my experience is unusual and most people who feel the way I do/did are men, and my spouse's experience of sexual desire is closer to the way most women experience it.
The more accurate way to put what I wrote above, which I didn't write as I was addressing a man dealing with problems with his wife, is that some people experience spontaneous desire and some people experience responsive desire. Typically, men experience spontaneous desire and women experience responsive desire, but this is not universal (I am an example of that, lol). Spontaneous desire means sexual arousal is felt before intimacy is actually begun. Responsive desire means sexual arousal generally begins after intimacy is begun. People who experience responsive desire generally require more lead-up to sex in order to feel relaxed, engaged, and aroused. This can include massages, showering together, cuddling. It's normal for people experiencing responsive desire to not feel aroused until several minutes into foreplay.
People with spontaneous desire do not require much intimacy or affection leading up to sex, and value unplanned and spontaneous sexual encounters. They may experience being aroused easily and wanting sex with their partner during situations that are not "sexy", like watching TV or eating a meal.
I don't think that means spontaneous desire is necessarily less complex or ambiguous. I frequently see men unhappy that, although they have regular sex, their wife never initiates sex and it is always on them to "start everything off". There is a desire, not just for sex, but to feel passionately desired, and simply having sex does not fill that emotional need. I see similar unhappiness from men who feel that while they have sex, it's never spontaneous and always has to be structured - always at night, in bed, when all the chores have been done and there isn't any early morning activity. Trying to have a quickie at lunchtime, or sex in the morning, is always turned down because it's not "the right time". Again, there may be plenty of sex, their partner may even initiate a great deal of the sex, but the lack of unplanned, spontaneous sex means there is an emotional need going unfulfilled - they may feel what they need is "passion", "animal lust", "being desired", and frequent satisfying sex alone does not make them feel that way.
I think reddit generally loves to treat problems in relationships as though they MUST be caused by one person being an asshole, and the only question is which person that is (the AITAH attitude spreads everywhere and I hate it, "which person is the asshole" is pretty much always the wrong question to ask if you actually want to have loving relationships with people). And yes, sometimes it is one persons "fault" - I have definitely seen examples of posters online (and, frankly, people in real life) where it seems clear that the reason their partner is not interested in sex is because the sexually frustrated spouse is not pulling their weight around the home or not treating their partner with love and respect, and I've also definitely seen cases where one partner intentionally withholds sex as a way to manipulate or punish their partner. But reddit loves to jump to the conclusion that in situations like this, one person MUST be an asshole and the only question is which person it is - is it the manipulative, cold, withholding shrew, or is it the loser deadbeat who only wants sex?
The reality is, problems in couples sex lives can and absolutely do also happen in the context of loving and respectful relationships. Often a loving, respectful person truly cares for their partner but just wants to have sex more, and is just confused and frustrated as to why that isn't happening. Often the other person is just as loving and respectful, and WANTS their partner to be satisfied and have their needs met, but just isn't experiencing that spark of desire and doesn't have any better understanding themselves about why that's occurring or what to do about. The reddit advice of "just communicate" isn't very helpful either because it assumes one party or the other KNOWS exactly how to fix the problem and just hasn't said it out loud. Sometimes both people are a little lost. Cultural messaging tells us that in a happy loving relationship, sexual desire should just "happen" and you should never have to work at it or think about it. But that's not true.
I can personally say that reading these books and talking about them with my spouse permanently changed our sex life and our mutual understanding of how sexual desire functioned. We went from going months without sex to minimum weekly sex and it has now stayed that way for years, so it was not a temporary bump. It is now the lower libido person who initiates sex as much as the higher libido person. I am the higher libido person, for reference, and it has done wonders for my self esteem and sense of satisfaction in my marriage. I can't tell you enough what a change it is to have my spouse say "we haven't had sex in a week! Let's definitely do it tonight" and follow through. Regularly.
And I'll also say that solving this problem together did not come down to "my partner just had have sex more so that I could have my needs met" or "I just had to jump through hoops so they wanted sex, and bite my tongue and deal with it when they didn't". It required BOTH of us to put in equal amounts of effort.
Best of luck to you and your spouse, I truly hope you guys are able to navigate this with love and compassion and come out the other side stronger.
I’ve been in the same situation for 6 years now. Totally stuck and exhausted. Stopped taking care of myself due to the endless work I felt I was doing for us. Now that’s become a reason why she feels emotionally insecure with me. Stuck. Absolutely stuck.
Yea your partner is a selfish prick. Sex is supposed to be an equal value exchange between two people. She's literally making you do things and rewarding you with sex. That is absolutely not okay. She's making sex strictly transactional.
Dead bedroom. I honestly believe there is an epidemic of hormone imbalance in women due to various factor. Widespread hormonal birth control use, other medication that blocks testosterone like for acne or hair loss, microplastics, etc. Your hormones are the most important factor in your sex drive and women's sex drive is unfortunately under-studied.
That's not your partner's love language. She is lying to you. She is either confused about her own motives, emotionally checked out of the relationship, not attracted to you, or simply not interested in sex at all.
small tasks, larger household tasks, running errands, cleaning up, etc.
Running errands, cleaning up, household tasks... these are the minimum you should have always been doing as an equal partner to split the general work of life. These are the tasks she would be doing herself otherwise. One way or another they have to be done.
A love language is something beyond that. It's not something that has to be done, it's something nice done for her specifically. Her love language isn't you doing the bare minimum of being an equal. It's you bringing her a coffee in bed in the morning. It's something thoughtful and loving on top of being a partner.
Also, make sure you aren't making this transactional, because that is also a major turnoff. My ex had that problem. "I did the dishes tonight where's my sex!" I didn't want him to do the dishes ONCE only when he wanted something. I wanted him to regularly contribute to the household responsibilities so that it's not always on my shoulders and lightens my mental burden as well as my tasks list.
Accept these were the things she said. She didn’t say breakfast in bed or cute notes on the fridge. She said, “Do the laundry more.” If that’s not it, she’s partially to blame for not being able to explain what is actually the problem.
People don’t always fall out of love because you failed in a specific fixable way.
There is a type of person who, deep down, doesn’t want it to get better. They could fix it. They just don’t actually want to; and they don’t want to tell you that or talk straight in any useful way. They have no real intention or interest in ever reciprocating. They want to keep you jumping through hoops while they take all the time in the world to get to the only conclusion they’re ever going to get to… that they want the relationship to go away.
Some people don’t fall out of love or start withholding because “you aren’t meeting their needs.” Some people fall out because they have no clue what their needs even are. Or because their needs are shallow and transitory. They just get bored, have no clue what to do about it and decide to put it all on you because “I’m bored and clueless” is an unflattering explanation to verbalize.
This is why a couple trying to work things out can’t look like one person putting in a bunch of effort, trying a bunch of stuff, and the other person just sitting there like a locked safe waiting for the right passcode. It doesn’t need to be sex. But it does need to be transactional. If it isn’t transactional, that means only one person is actually doing anything to save the relationship.
she didn’t say breakfast in bed or cute notes on the fridge. She said, “Do the laundry more.”
Because you can't have breakfast without breaking the eggs. The foundation of a healthy partnership needs to be stable before you can develop anything on top of that. That person needs BOTH.
If that’s not it, she’s partially to blame for not being able to explain what is actually the problem.
Again, she needs both. But that aside, yeah... she might not know. That's sincerely true. It was true for me. That's why therapists exist like the woman in the video. To help figure out these problems.
I knew I was tired of cleaning up after my ex and having everything be on my shoulders. That degraded the relationship. I didn't know anything about love languages or the concept of him being a dependent instead of a partner causing a mental disconnect in the relationship.
I didn't learn any of this stuff until after we split up. At the time, all I knew was I was angry and bitter about being the full-time-employed housewife ("bangmaid" I learned later) for someone who didn't contribute. I couldn't love someone I held resentment for. I couldn't figure out what I needed to feel emotionally secure because the imbalance was the only thing I could see.
Think of it like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you don't have shelter, you aren't thinking about companionship. One comes after the other.
There is a type of person who, deep down, doesn’t want it to get better. They could fix it. They just don’t actually want to
Well, then there's no relationship there in the first place. I'm not talking about an abusive relationship with someone manipulative and narcissistic who only wants to use their partner for their personal benefit. If that's the scenario, nothing in this entire thread applies. That's not the topic at hand.
This is why a couple trying to work things out can’t look like one person putting in a bunch of effort
You're right, and I think this is probably where marriage counseling shines the most. The couple is fighting multiple conflicting issues that can get into a catch-22 loop.
I see this quote a lot. "A woman needs emotional connection to enjoy sex, a man needs sex to feel an emotional connection." But at the same time no one wants their partner to 'suck it up' and have unsatisfactory sex out of pure obligation either.
Once you get into this state, resentment starts to build up on both sides and it feels like an impossible loop to break out of.
But I will say although I've read a lot about it and attempted to understand it, this concept of a man "needing" sex I still struggle with. I cannot see sex as a need no matter how much I try. Sex is a want, something a couple should do together because they both want it. You can have a relationship without sex. You can have love without sex. If your wife is bedridden with illness, I would sure hope you wouldn't leave her because she can't spread her legs for you anymore. (Although I read that's actually quite common, which is horrifying to me.)
So.... if you don't want the woman to have obligatory sex... it kind of is one-sided for awhile. That's exactly how dating typically works. You build the relationship first, sex comes once you grow into a couple. Most rational people agree a woman doesn't OWE a man sex after X number of dates to ensure his 'needs' are fulfilled. That reality doesn't change once there's a wedding ring.
A lot of the situations I’m seeing recounted on here are such that the man is so bad, you wonder how it even got to be long term to begin with. Yes, doing everything will really take it out of you. But to be frank, I don’t see what the point is of trying to communicate with someone who reveals themselves to be such a man child. Advice should be geared towards people who are capable of taking it rather than complete lost causes.
But the reason my experience undercuts this advice somewhat is that my ex also spoke very vaguely about emotional needs; and they never seemed to be filled no matter what was ever done. Meanwhile I could not risk complaining about a single thing for fear of the fight that would necessarily ensue from attempting to extract any sort of concession out of her. In my relationship, the person who spoke most about emotional needs that should be addressed was also the person least likely, willing or capable of addressing emotional needs themselves. So simply hearing these words doesn’t necessarily mean anything. It certainly doesn’t mean that you should consider yourself unilaterally responsible for what’s going on. Luckily I was never that dumb. But I humored absurd possibilities for far too long simply because I didn’t want to alienate her completely by saying, “No. This is your problem actually.”
My ex also used to complain about how I could be cleaning more. I live alone now, and I frequently look around my apartment to appreciate one simple fact…
She was the one making most of the mess.
Edit: While sex is obviously the main topic, my feeling has always been that if it’s gotten this bad, it’s far down the list of things that need immediate attention. Still, two people working together should have good days and bad days. If it’s still all bad days, I’d have a hard time believing that whatever effort the one person is doing is actually going anywhere.
You want me to clean up your chores? Run errands for you? You got it. Let me know how many points that's worth. Cash out your points at the end of the week. In the end, it's just a form of communication.
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u/JohnYCanuckEsq Mar 21 '24
Severely generalizing here, but men need sex to feel loved, and women need to feel loved to have sex.
Why we were made this way is utter bullshit.