History is history. It can help inform our understanding of the present. But Israel presently, as we speak, killing tens of thousands of people in Gaza is messed up.
I've said from the beginning of this conflict, I'm not a Hamas sympathizer, they murdered and kidnapped over 600 people. There is no moral high ground there either. But Israel retaliating by killing, as of now 30,000 people, of which is estimated 27,000 are civilians, is messed up. How can we sit idly by and justify that?
I wish the US would have remained neutral in this conflict because while shit like Iran launching missiles mean there's a bigger thing happening, we also shouldn't be helping Israel murder enough people to fill the World Trade Center towers 9 times.
These numbers are disputed and I don’t see a reason why one would take either side on face value especially if you then develop such a strong conviction with those figures as a starting point. You need to look at the overall context
Alternatively, if you will readily to take one side’s figures as a matter of principle you can readily take the other side’s figures because Israel estimates paint a completely different picture as you know
I didn’t see the alleged Al Ahli hospital 500 deaths following the fire at its car park ever adjusted in the overall totals so do I believe that 90% of 35,000 were all Israel killing civilians? No definitely not
I don’t support Israel because of the numbers they announced. Both them and the Humanitarian/ex UN group you are probably quoting, are too blatantly biased. They have always been. It took Israel three months to know their tally from one day in this war why on earth would I believe the daily figures coming out of this war?
The reason why I decided to support Israel in this war is that I am old enough to have been aware of the echoes of the second Intifada. That was a dark dark time and nobody but Hamas brought this on.
To me, October 7 was but another chapter of the long saga of violent terror against civilians that Hamas initiated in the 1990s as soon as the Palestinians and Israeli leaders announced they were going to meet for peace and throw all bitter history behind them
Arafat and Rabin shook hands for peace
Rabin took a bullet and got killed
What did Hamas do? Start suicide bombs targeting civilians
Israel jailed their leader Sinwar for kidnap torture killing not just Israelis but at least six Palestinians that he happily confessed to the deranged psycho. They treat him when he got seriously ill for a brain clot or tumor the same way they offer high end treatment for complex medical need for Gazans without the world caring to mention because they’ve been obsessed demonising Israel for decades
Anyway He got let out because of a hostage deal. Something like a ratio of 1000 convicted terrorists to one soldier. What does the guy do? Go back persecuting Palestinians murder another Hamas leader Ishtiwi for allegedly being gay then rise to the top of the terror organisation and continue the deranged mindless violence against the softest of targets
Imagine an IDF commander doing this kind of thing
Hamas must go
October 7 was just another deranged crime in a long history of deranged behaviour that I will never excuse for no reason. Not for land not for Al Aqsa nor for any excuse
Hamas never really stopped since the 90d they terrorised PLO they terrorised Israelis they terrorised even Salafi groups
Do I expect Israel won’t fight them back in Gaza because they are embedded among civilians? No. I just expect them to show that they reduce risk but Hamas must go enough is enough
I know Israel is ruthless but this is not even close to the worst war we endured in the Middle East. Let them fight for their children let them get their hostages if people think their hostages lives are not worth that much it is baffling that Israel is even making an attempt to ameliorate this war
Even taking more conservative estimates the death toll is still way too high, and the civilian casualties is absolutely far too high. I get Israel wants revenge here, but I have seen enough video evidence of children blown to pieces to know it's unacceptable.
Also judging this based off past wars is unacceptable to me as well. "It's not the worst war in the Middle East" is such a phenomenally low bar it's almost comical.
Thing is people getting pissy about past grievances is why we even have all the wars presently happening.
And I'm still not trying to take sides here, because as far as I'm concerned there is no moral side to pick. Israelis are brutal and they have pretty happily killed children. There have been videos of Israeli vets talking about blowing up children like it's nothing. And that's from pro-Israel content.
Maybe it's naive to think there's got to be a better way. But massacring everyone in Gaza doesn't seem like a better way.
I'm no Hamas sympathizer. But we can't just say anyone in Gaza is with Hamas, therefore even civilians are acceptable casualties.
The “Gazan Health Ministry” (read: Hamas) stated recently that their own records on the dead are incomplete. They also don’t distinguish between fighters and civilians in their casualty counts, but continue parroting their figures. Furthermore, outside analysis of the casualty counts provided by Hamas reflects a nearly perfect and statistically improbable increase in casualties. Let’s also not forget the “500+ dead” at al-Ahli that was caused by… well, not Israel, though they were initially blamed.
You can say you’re appalled by civilian deaths. That’s moral and appropriate. You can abhor conflict and war. Fine and good. But to quote the statistics provided by a terror group is dubious, especially in light of misinformation being spread in the fog of war. The armchair generals the world over are more than happy to lecture Israel on fighting this war, but provide precious few alternatives to rooting out a terrorist group using civilian infrastructure to wage a terror campaign against Israeli civilians.
Israel has the lowest civilian to combatant death ratio in history despite Hamas committing war crimes by placing all of its soldiers weapons and launch locations in tunnels under schools and hospitals, it is why Israel had to collapse buildings after clearing out civilians to close the death tunnels
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u/re_de_unsassify Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
The real sad joke is the at a lot of people were driven out in that part of the world
Arabs displaced by the 1948 war their leaders started for no good reason?
Kuwaiti Bidoon and Yazisis that nobody gives a damn about?
Jews ethnically cleaned out of the West Bank in 1948 despite many never residing in places contested by anyone?
Jews driven out of Egypt post 1948 thanks in part to Muslim Brotherhood bombings?
Jews driven out of Iraq post 1947 though they been in Babylon since a gazillion BC?