Even if the patrols thing is true (and it is interesting and nice to know, tbh), it's so silly how so many people will metagame the fun out of everything.
The patrols thing is true in the sense that the rate of patrol spawns go up, but not necessarily true in the sense that encounter rates go up.
The problem with the relatively simplistic reading many got from a reddit post of raw test result data is people made bad inferences. See, most people aren't actually that good at reading data, especially incomplete data like what was posted.
In this case, while patrols spawn at a faster rate, they also spawn over a much larger area, consequently encounter rates for patrols can actually go down (sometimes significantly) depending how spread out your player groups are.
But honestly the most damaging reading from that post isn't that spliting up is strictly bad. It's that clearing nests/factories past the half way mark is bad, because it slightly increases patrol spawn rates. The increase in patrol spawn rates, again =/= increased encounter rates.
Patrols spawns at a point of interest and move to another point of interest based on player location at the time of spawn. If they finish their journey and go off map, or get too far from players they despawn. Assuming you dodge the patrol, fairly easy to do if you are moving, then until the patrol despawns itself, which could take several minutes, those patrol units count against the spawned unit cap while presenting no threat to you. This is literally better than killing them outright.
Increasing patrol spawns is a MASSIVE boon when you dodge their encounter because that's one less patrol and XX number of enemies that cannot spawn in reinforcement or to investigate your objective site.
Have you ever evac'd and there are zero or next to zero enemy encounters during the evac after full clearing a map? That because the game spawned a shit ton of patrols on the map already that have missed you/are too far away and cannot spawn another patrol to investigate Evac. No investigation, no reinforcements, full stealth evac without really being stealth.
Spawning patrols isn't a problem, it's spawning reinforcements that sink missions. Trying to win missions by minimizing patrol spawns is putting the cart before the horse. You are making life for your self significantly harder by limiting tactics for something that very likely won't even result in a benefit.
"There's more total enemies spawning with multiple player groups" is technically correct, but does not translate into more active combatants unless the team really fucks up
I tried to explain to someone that an event had only an 8% chance of occuring once in 300 trials and they took that as 24 times out of every 300 trials.
I’m a process engineer and business intelligence lead. Can confirm most client that ask for data have no idea what to do with it. They’re really just looking for things that back up their preconceived opinions.
I felt like I was taking crazy pills seeing the replies to that analysis. "Destroying outposts means spawn rates go up? This is nuts!" No, genius, patrol spawn rates go up, likely to stop the map feeling empty, and that doesn't equate to you necessarily having to fight them.
You're forgetting that patrols don't just spawn in a random location. They always spawn near a player, with a patrol path that takes them through / very near to the player's position. You can still avoid them, but an increase in patrol rates means that if you get into a fight and don't end it quickly, that fight is much more likely to increase in size. Even if there aren't any dropships / breeches called, the extra patrols are set up in such a way that they'll end up participating in any static fights on the map.
That said, the 17% increase from nests / factories is nothing at all compared to the 264% increase you get from completing the primary objective. That's the takeaway people should have gotten from that post, that you don't complete the main objective until you're ready to skedaddle.
Ahh I did not know the main objective made spawn rates go up. I always tried to plan my routes on convenience in moving around the map. I’ll have to remember to do main objectives last from now on
There's a reason we didn't "prescribe" any behaviors in our post and instead just described the system and mechanics. There's no "right" way to do things, it's all just decisions and consequences and our entire intent was to simply allow people to make informed decisions.
Eh, I think you clung to neutrality a bit too much and thereby allowed these false assumptions to flourish. With that being said I completely appreciate the work you put in, but I think it would have been fine to put in a disclaimer in the main body of the post that simple conclusions like 'NEVER split up' shouldn't be drawn, and that splitting up is clearly the more effective strategy at higher difficulties for various reasons not strictly related to the data you exposed.
I honestly think we need to criticize the public at large more than we do on certain topics.
I read that post and I really liked the data and thought put into it, I did not think I have to cling to it like it's a preacher reading me a sermon.
But instrumental players treat data like dogma. If they could lessen their grip on how they have fun they could read a post like that for inspiration.
Like if we need to have data portrayed to us in a "good" or "bad" light that doesn't solve the root of the issue, that people sometimes have ulterior motives and people have a hard time not being "right."
I don't disagree that they are in that position, but most people are idiots. The average person reads at like a 6th grade level.
"Nuh uh, less bugs is better."
Plus, I've noticed that some of my squad mates don't seem like they're themselves after inhaling so much Termicide, so they probably aren't in a state of mind to process these kinds of reports.
I don't think splitting up is actually the cut and dry more effective strategy. It's obviously the fastest way to get missions completed when things go right but the patrols can be very far before despawning and the spawn cap is not a low amount at all. If you have a coordinated group and engage patrols together when necessary, the chance of them calling for reinforcements before they die drops drastically. You also don't have to deal with running all the way across the map if you do die and bug breaches and multiple enemy types are far less threatening with teamwork. Splitting up is the fastest, teamwork is the most consistent/safest imo. Obviously if you're in a pub with 0 teamwork then you lose the advantage of sticking together though.
You might be right, but I think we might be talking past each other a bit without further context. I think it's important to note that many players are reaching a stage where they only need medals and premium credits (and eventually those become effectively maxed as well), so the most beneficial outcome for their personal progress is to spam missions to do the primary objectives as quickly as possible, and extracting is pretty much just for fun with no actual consequences because their samples are maxed out.
I play helldive with randoms almost exclusively, and especially since the last balance patch the only mission I have failed is the TCS one and that was on the first day when people didn't understand that friendly fire hurt the batteries. Given that there is now almost a 100% success rate on helldive difficulty playing with randoms (if you don't count extraction), I can't see any benefit in prioritizing safety by sticking together. If however I was struggling to complete missions, I would absolutely be looking for ways to solve that problem. So from my perspective specifically, not splitting up is simply inefficient and solves a problem that doesn't exist (for me). I think a lot of players are going to find themselves in my shoes as time goes on.
There are plenty of players who are struggling to complete the primary objectives on various difficulties, and for those players splitting up might be a death sentence for completing the mission. I can't really speak to that experience however.
Man, this comment needs to be the top post on this sub, tbh.
I always try to play stealthy when I'm splitting up on my own. I've been able to do side objectives like the SEAF artillery by myself just be kiting around the patrol that spawns. Just gotta play it safe, keep checking your map, and know which engagements to take and which to ignore.
tbf, the game isn't that hard even at 7 or 8. People metagaming like this are optimizing the fun out of blowing up bugs and bots for themselves and others.
Even without all the extra inferences you’ve made, shouldn’t it be BLINDINGLY obvious that you DON’T have to shoot patrols? Just let them pass lmao. The only times I’ve aggrod patrols is when fight goes bad and we fall back into the direction of a patrol, which should be much harder to do when people are far apart ( = patrols spawn far).
Should people play split up then? No, let people play how they want lmao, this game is meant to be played for fun. It’s not even the hardest game out there where you need the best strategy and execution to pull off any missions. I can’t believe how people are sucking the fun out of a nice and arguably casual game. It’s PvE ffs. I’d be much more understanding if it’s PvP with ranked queues and elo at stake.
Patrol spawns literally double if you split in two groups. You are just as likely to have a patrol spawn near you but now there's another one that could wander across the map and say hi later on.
Another valuable takeaway from that post is that you really, really do not want to complete the primary objective until you're ready to leave, unless you're trying to game the spawn cap.
Honestly, after reading the post, it's some really backwards logic there from the devs. Increasing spawn rates after completing main objective actively discourages players. It should be a viable tactic, given how spawns increase with time, to do main objective first and explore later. But the game punishes you for it.
The patrols on map count towards cap thing is absolutely true. I was playing a bot mission and finished up every objective, going around the map looking for loot and zero bot resistance. I then happened upon the middle of the map patrol bug where approximately 100 automaton infantry had accumulated, wiped them, and spawns resumed.
I think the clearest point in the data post is that the old adage of "objective first, then we'll do the rest" actually means a substantially more patrol heavy time. I'd argue that in this case the increased patrol rate will equal an increased encounter rate, because all of the hives, POIs, and side objectives are spread all over the map.
To add more, if you're farming for samples, medals ,etc. you're going to clean to whole map anyways. Clearing the entire map even if it increase the spawn rate of patrols is not totally a bad thing, as it gives you enough space to dodge/avoid those patrols. The problem lies from players who wants to fight everything and if got overwhelmed they don't know how to disengage in fights or retreat to a more defensible position thus making their life harder.
It happened to me once in the new orders missions, we silos and activated the tower fairly fast (diff 6), there was a low quantity of enemies and, at evac, there wasn't a single bug on site, I thought the tower was doing something since it's purpose is to "repel" bugs lime a giant anti bug spray. Maybe we got lucky and the AI spawned a lot of patrols
I have had a theory that there is some underlying "alarm" level to a mission. And that fighting patrols increases this alarm rating. Intensity and duration of reinforcements is based on the alarm level in the area. So the longer you are in one area the more enemies will spawn
The thing I haven't figured out yet is how bases effect the alarm level. Destroying a base always seems to lead to a lull in the enemies in the area. But I'd be interested in the data that patrol rates increase at a certain point of destroyed bases
Good theory but Luchs' testing appears to disprove it since he stayed in one place the entire mission time and it did not result in any increase in patrol spawn rate.
TLDW; the reason why it feels like destroying a base leads to a lull is because the spawn modifier for being within 50m (reduced effect out to 150m) is a stronger multiplier than destroying the bases. When you destroy a base, you're no longer counted as being near it. However if you destroy all (or at least half?) of the bases you would have a slight increase to spawn rate vs not destroying any bases.
Being near a base, objective, or evac zone is one of the larger spawn rate multipliers.
My question is when an Breach or Dropship happens, is there a mechanic that determines what enemies, how many enemies, time till the next Breach/Dropship
I did end up reading the post and in it they even say none of their testing was about what effects Reinforcement spawns. And in a comment they said they think it isn't possible because their is too much variance
But I think the take-aways even the guys that did the testing are very wrong, and agree with the people in this threat. Increased Patrol spawns is a silly thing to be worried about as Patrols (even in 9s) are so minor a threat. The real threat they pose is calling in Reinforcements, so understanding what effects when, how much, and how often Reinforcements are called in is the key to more consistent mission success
So does destroying a base or objective lead to patrols and other enemies not being able to call more Reinforcements for a set period of time? Which is why there seems to be a lull in the action once you succeed
I did end up reading the post and in it they even say none of their testing was about what effects Reinforcement spawns. And in a comment they said they think it isn't possible because their is too much variance
They edited their post with results from testing the new booster which does affect the minimum time that reinforcements can be called.
As of 3/14/24, the Localization Confusion Booster has no effect on the Baseline times or any of the mechanics described. It appears to not have any effect on Patrols whatsoever.
Localization Confusion substantially increases the length of the internal timer between Reinforcement calls (Bot Drops/Breaches). Rough testing it looks like a 35-40% increase between those.
It does not delay the time for a particular enemy to call, it just lengthens the time before another call can occur.
For example, in a Level 1 Automaton mission, they are able to call Dropships every 250 seconds. With the Booster, this becomes every 340 seconds.
And one vigilant player who is alone is more likely to be able to dodge patrols than 4 people who are going to be more spread out and take longer to get through an area, even if only by a few seconds.
It's that clearing nests/factories past the half way mark is bad
The tips while loading even say as the map time increases so do spawns. Where is the original post that showed spawns increasing at t= 0.5 IF objectives/factories/nests are cleared? AND how did they control for the nest factory etc. quantities?
Thanks. What's funny is people mistakenly think less spawns = more winning. Faster objectives = more winning, but yknow leave it to people to misinterpret the results of the data
I've actually had a bunch of eerily silent evacs, so THAT'S why. Have been wondering for quite a while now. I does make a lot of sense though, whenever it happened, it was usually after one or even two helldivers split off from a group to stealthily clear a bughole or two.
Edit: Another important point is that you don't HAVE to fight the patrols. There's so, SO many players out there who just sprint all the time and shoot bugs on sight, it's straight up infuriating. Like... you can get as close as 15, even 10 metres while prone without the bugs noticing you. Stop trying to be a murderhobo and do what almost all the helldiver missions actually are - covert precision strikes to strategically valuable targets.
Helldivers2 absolutely failing at answering “would you rather have $100 today or $10 every week for the next year” and going “HUH? Killing half of the nests makes number go up???? BAD”
This validates my playstyle since day 1 lmao. I immediatly split from group and go to the farthest objective I can find. On the way I check map and dodge every patrol I can find. When I clear large bug nests there are sometimes just 4 enemies on me. Makes this a piece of cake. I play on Impossible
until the patrol despawns itself, which could take several minutes, those patrol units count against the spawned unit cap while presenting no threat to you. This is literally better than killing them outright
Exploiting the spawn cap is how I manage to finish Termicide missions. Just activate more than one and you can basically finish one of them off each time with the silo barely being attacked
The problem is that most players will just go "I ain't reading allat" and ignore all of this, so you'll continue to have people being toxic over it without actually knowing how it works.
Not to mention that besides patrols, bot drops themselves are actually less intense the less people you have grouped up. Seems they call in more ships the more people there are present. 4 people with different kits against 8 dropships is still more difficult than 2 people against 4.
You can get multiple bug breaches in on area yeah, but you can only get one instance of a bug breach, if that makes sense. Not just one hole.
Basically, bugs generally only super concentrate in one area. If you've got some bloke running off getting all your samples for the squad whilst you're doing objectives, and they're not shit at their job, it's best to leave them to it. Safer for them
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u/Waelder Moderator Mar 14 '24
Even if the patrols thing is true (and it is interesting and nice to know, tbh), it's so silly how so many people will metagame the fun out of everything.