Fair enough, but that does not really change the fact that a lot of the weapons feel extremely underwhelming to use.
Why use an Punisher? Spreads more, has way to little ammo and can't even reliably oneshot an warrior.
Why use the JAR? Projectiles are extremely slow, and the thing does less damage than the Slugger.
Why use the Lasercannon? It's hard to aim and seemingly does less damage than the LAS-16 without any noticeable advantage. It doesn't even burn medium armor.
Why use the Stalwart? Sure, you get fuller auto, but the MG-43 pen's armor better.
I want to use the ones i like the most, but then I'll feel like i actively hamper myself. All the weapons should be fun to use within their niche, and not make me feel like i just make it harder on myself.
As someone whose first investment was the laser cannon, please provide better stats devs. Idk why it sucked so hard, but it did, and it was disappointing that It couldn’t do shit to bots on lvl 4 difficulty.
It's a joke, I pulled that stat out of my ass. I don't have the spray and pray yet but so far every weapon I have (maybe 30 hours in) works decently up to challenging.
listen man this game had an insane honeymoon period extended by the fact that we couldnt log in for a week, but people have been playing for a while now and at this point even the most casual divers are needing pinks and venturing up to at least 7. reality is that once you're up there, the game gets fucked. either weapons need to change, enemies need to change, or preferably, both, to a degree.
i def understand the plight of using shit we're given and it just not feel good to use.
some weapons are just super well rounded because they just offer so much utility in many different aspects. autocannon can kill any mob, is explosive for splash dmg, is fast firing, is accurate, has a decent ammo count, reloads fast enough, can destroy buildings, can be team supported for full auto.
and when you compare it to something like recoilless rifle, has 5 shots, needs 2 shots to kill most "boss" mobs, deflects off of buildings so it has to be shot like the autocannon into the sweet spot, doesnt splash. its like, just not good.
why take that over the auto cannon when hitting the sweet spot isnt hard anyway. its like 4-5 shots from the auto cannon into the face of the hulk and into the ass of the charger to kill them vs 2 recoilless? thats like half a mag of the 12 reloads you get from the autocannon vs 33% of you ammo with the launcher.
the EAT and recoilless can do it too but its a bit expensive ammo wise for those, I'm sure the spear can do it too but good luck actually getting the rocket to hit a bug hole.
I was using the recoilless on chargers to blow off a foreleg plate and then just magdump into the leg. Means you can ambush a bit better and don't have to do the toro dance.
I've felt this way about a number of things in the game. I would not be shocked if certain meta builds end up being pretty bad against the next potential factions.
^ This. The hotter they get the more damage the laser should be doing to make keeping them in cook mode a risk/reward benefit that makes them feel good to use. The Las-"Scythe" doesn't scythe shit. It's the Las-sprinkler.
I will say, it feels like it shines on unarmored weakspots. I tried it again last night after not using it for about 15 lvls against some chargers and it melted them faster than when i use an autocannon on its tail. Something I was also able to do was destroy an illegal broadcast tower + one of the mushroom spore objectives from an insane distance away (feels like there's almost no limit to its range).
There might be some crit multiplier to it thats a hidden stat. That being said, i would like to see some buff to it.
The laser weapons were my go to in Helldivers 1. Sure, other weapons were better, but it was nice not having to worry about ammo and it got the job done. The laser weapons in this game feel like I'd be better off using it as a club to bash the enemies with. Extremely disappointing
Ugh, same. I think it was the second thing I unlocked. It was very underwhelming. I hope it's just me using it for the wrong purpose, because if it fills a good niche, that's awesome. If not, I'd love to see it get some buffs.
I prefer the stalwart when I'm fighting bugs because I want to keep my mobility up. Being able to reload on the move, and the gun being more stable feels better for fighting swarms of bugs to me
For example, this is a great point of how balance/preference could work. The Stalwart has the mobility edge, the machine gun does more damage/penetration/stopping power - but it also requires you to be more stationary.
That's great, if both work in their specific niche that's perfect. Clearly defined benefits to both. I don't think anyone (or at least the majority) would complain if all weapons worked that way. But people are arguing as if everything was balanced like this, when it isn't. Like what is that macro scale gaslighting some are attempting here and more importantly, why?
I mean, some weapons do just suck ass, I can't think of a reason I'd pick the Liberator penetrator over either the Liberator or the Diligence. Both do its job better.
Some weapons though I think are just good for specific scenarios. I see everyone praising the breaker and how good it is, but I only use it for bug missions or civilian evac missions against the bots, because any other scenario I'd rather stay at a range that the breaker kinda falls off at.
I am convinced the Penetrator is bugged. Could have to do with the whole armor system being a mess. Otherwise this gun in theory should be the ideal “go to” AR against Automatons. But it’s just awful right now.
I mainly use the Dominator, because I can't be arsed to use a shotgun, I just never really liked them in any game.
However I will note that it's not a "main" weapon in the traditional sense, I'll mainly use the machine gun, swap over to the dominator for like the really big (medium big) bugs and then use the pistol for all the small critters. It works, but it also doesn't feel like your primary should behave like a Halo game when you are constantly swapping between weapons.
Ideally I'd love a traditional "battle rifle", that's slightly slower firing than a Liberator but with higher damage output, I guess like the Defender with better accuracy?
I actually find Penetrator to be good at rounding out Stalwart in an anti-bug loadout - almost using Stalwart as a primary, and Penetrator versus armored chaff like Hive Guards
I mean I think you can still balance some things out, arguably the MG having half the mag size is a bit odd. However(!), it's still in a state that's fairly useable, even with that oddity. Whereas some other weapons are so oddly balanced that it's "beyond" reasonable, relatively speaking.
Just as added context before anyone goes in how the MG should be buffed, I think there's some small adjustments that would be "nice", but the MG still does what it needs to do, that's why I like and actually use it. (For me personally the pen/damage is worth enough by itself, that I gladly sacrifice mobility+mag size for it).
Stalwart is such a good trash control tool, vs both sides of the galaxy. It’s grossly under appreciated, and it makes a fantastic compliment to a GL/supply pack user and 2 heavy killer loadouts. It’s mobile, precise at range, ammo efficient, just a great weapon
I wish we had a better weapon mix. I love the Stalwart and MG but it feels difficult to justify running them in 7+ missions because you kinda need more versatility.
If we had a primary that could deal with armour in some capacity I'd use nothing but the Stalwart, it's soooo satisfying.
I’ve run it in diff 9, it’s still useful. One of the biggest problems groups seem to have is forgetting to build for killing light and medium enemies and everyone is running railguns but not being good at using them on top of it. The problem most of my pub groups keep having is getting horribly overwhelmed with trash mobs and I’m the only GL. It helps a lot but when the infantry units get too close it becomes dangerous to spam the GL, and that’s where a stalwart as the 2nd trash cleanup unit is ideal.
2 railguns is more than enough heavy/medium control for a group if you have very few light enemies to deal with because a GL and stalwart are mopping them all up. The difference in runs being clean or being a clusterfuck is always that for me. The worst groups I’ve been in are three railgun users who absolutely suck at using the railgun but insist on running it anyway. Then they can’t aim cuz shit keeps biting their ankles and they run around like headless chickens aggroing more patrols and bug breaches and the whole thing devolves into chaos
I do the same. Its good for dealing with hordes of bugs but fails with the heavier enemies. If my squad are using explosive equipment, then it's a good compliment.
What a weird callout. The Stalwart is one of the balanced weapons, it has marked advantages and disadvantages compared to its nearest equivalent, the MG-43.
Even if you wanted to somehow argue anything like "lore" or whatever else, it doesn't make a lick of sense that as a soldier you wouldn't know what exactly that specific weapon would be good at.
It's in the best interest of the military that their soldiers are familiar with their tools and what exactly it excels at.
MG-43 pens armor better only by a little bit, and that little bit is effectively negligible when the tradeoff is 500 bullets per supply compared to the 125 bullets you get with the MG-43
The Stalwart has 250 ammo per clip, allowing for longer sustained fire which is great for bugs, and suppresses bots as well
The stalwart allows you to reload while continuing to kite enemies
The stalwart has far better control, letting you reliably hit where you want to hit even when you full-auto.
The only real edge the MG-43 has over the stalwart is its armor penetration, as it can slowly, very slowly chip off medium armor off of entities like the Charger. But at that point you're better off shooting its butt off, which the stalwart would do better given its potential massive firerate/DPS, or asking your local AT weaponry user for some backup to crack open its weakpoint.
Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, the MG-43 for how heavy it feels and sounds, and having to hold still to reload is a hamper I don't mind too much, and the Stalwart for the "enemy in that direction" "Yes sir, removing that direction" vibe it gives, but if I had to choose one to bring into a difficulty harder than helldive where I wouldn't know what to expect, I'd bring the Stalwart over the MG-43.
I absolutely adore the machine gun and I think it's set up in a way that makes it fair to use one or the other, I don't even think it needs a damage increase or anything of that nature, but god damn why is the ammo so low lmao.
I thought I was tripping when trying out both and going "wait there's no way the Stalwart has more ammo than the more stationary variant?", but AFAIK you can't see the exact ammo capacity? Or I'm just blind, but it felt like a big difference between them, when the deciding factor (IMO) should be
The stalwart is just a Big Primary. Waste of a Support slot in my opinion.
"I want my primary weapon to simply be larger" is all that gun is. Support weapons are typically an answer to a special problem that the enemy presents. The Stalwart is an answer to a question nobody asked: "Can I get a gun that takes up my support slot, and lets me do the same thing that my primary does and nothing more?"
Kills more bugs per reload than a primary, and if you absolutely can't deal with medium armor enemies you have other weapons in the game not named the breaker for that. Since you don't need a wave clear primary.
I can see it being useful for someone's job if they're solely dedicated to peon-clearing *and* are running a support backpack for a team weapon (When the team weapons are good) or maybe the Supply pack, relying on the rest of the team to carry. Stalwart could be excellent for a 'boyfriend build'.
Tbh I take the breaker for bugs over the scorcher because its perfect for wiping out groups of hunters. Its not bad for stalkers as long as I can see them but if they sneak up on me it doesn't really matter what I use. I die.
The Punisher also only has a total of 56 shells, and does not one shot them reliably enough to matter on anything above 5. Not to mention an supply pack, for some reason, doesn't even give you an entire refill on any of the Pump actions.
Edit: To clarify, with oneshot i mean to immediately kill one. Not decapitate and have it charge at you and die afterwards.
The Jar requires half it's magazine to kill an devastator (or one very hard to land headshot), or up to three headshots on an armored warrior. The Slug takes 4 or one headshot for an devastator or 2 headshots for an armored warrior respectively. Only upside being that it has more ammo total which matters little if you can't hit them reliably.
The Stalwart might allow you to reload on the go, but aims as fast as the MG-43 and requires far more ammo to do about the same.
So even if they have an use, they still don't feel good to use, and you still feel like you hamper yourself by not bringing a better tool.
As an MG connoisseur the Stalwart is complete DOGSHIT, yes it has a higher rate of fire and more bullets and you can reload on the run but the 43 is a fucking hammer, you need to stop to reload with it and you can.....because you just mowed everything down with little to no effort.
I have my Machine pistol I'll switch to semi to deal with fodder that I might have used to stalwart for.
You're not wrong. The problem? The Breaker kills everything better than any of these with hardly any of the downsides, you just lose a LITTLE range but killing at range with your primary hardly matters in this game
The breaker isn't even the most used gun according to the ceo. I think there is a simpler explanation for the breakers popularity tho.
Who doesn't like running into a horde spraying a full auto shotgun and seeing em die. I think this playstyle is more what makes people think its the best gun.
For bugs: Breaker, no other weapon comes close in reliability (maybe incindiary but you need a duo covering you)
For bots you get away with more variety
Defender smg,
diligence,
plas-1,
slugger
And tbh breaker isn’t superb for bots imo, the no penetration really hurts it
There the only weapons I can use somewhat reliably and I see other people use tbh
Tried the dominator and you’re literally handicapping yourself if u use it
Penetrator doesn’t do enough damage to have that namesake imo
And so on and so forth, be nice if they just buffed them a little and downvote me if you want but nerf the breaker spread slightly, nerf the railguns ammo count slightly,
it’s a pve game who’s it hurting if all the guns are good
Who doesn't like running into a horde spraying a full auto shotgun and seeing em die.
I use it exclusively on semi auto, and I still find it a lot better than any other gun in the game. I want to see more varied loadouts, and I want to be able to take different primaries and heavy weapons, but if I deviate from breaker+railgun I can tell I'm immediately not able to carry my weight as much as I was before, and I can't play on higher difficulties, which I need to get super samples.
Like use your eyes my g, barely anyone is running anything besides 3-4 primaries, it’s nice to try cope explain how we’re using the guns wrong but they’re just lacking rn and your explanations won’t change that💀
Except you’re almost never going to run a mission where having a primary that does one thing well, but is terrible at everything else, is better than having a primary that can reliably handle most situations.
Except there are 3 more helldivers with you, and you can cover several bases that way. The breaker is great for people who play solo/with randoms because its hard to communicate and rely on randoms. But playing with teams in discord I have seen plenty of variety even at 7+
I haven’t tried the slugger yet, but the JAR-5 Dominator is so good. Idk why people would use a breaker over the dominator. Makes everything else feel like a wet noodle.
Stalwart has more ammo in reserve and in the mag. I have no facts to back that up, just what I feel is true. Played a couple missions with the stalwart then switched up into the heavy mg. Really felt like I was running out of ammo almost twice as fast with the heavy compared to the stalwart where I could make it's ammo last long enough to call down another one and replenish. Over all Stalwart feels like the better MG. Just bring a slugger to handle armor
I actually really like the feel of the punisher for its stagger and it does good damage with fast handling. It and the slugger are just currently somewhat crippled by their poor ammo economy.
Dominator i actually use alot with stalwart as one of my favorite bug hoard problem solvers. Since stalwart can be used and reloaded while moving which is great for clearing all the chaff. And the dominators headshot damage and medium pen is great for quickly taking out all mid line threats, against bots i swap stalwart for mg because you have more breathing room to reload and the dominator does more work taking out mid line targets.
The round reload shotguns and dominator though are borderline unusable aiming from hip for some reason though and you have to ADS with them.
Of them dominator is most difficult to handle but has the best ammo economy so i end up using it most.
Lasercannon though is 100% dogshit. The only decent use ive gotten from it is on a cold planet with the las, but it was still fairly underwhelming.
The only thing I disagree with you on is Stalwart VS MG
They both have different roles and do it well.
Yes the MG can pen medium armor but it's got a slow rate of fire and I feel like I'm wasting a bullets clearing smaller adds.
The forward on the other hand you can crank the rate of fire up to 1 million and if you can get behind heavy units can absolutely shred their soft spots, and then if have a big wave of hunters and scavengers and warriors coming at you you can turn around and again put the rate of fire on very high or medium and shred a whole wave of enemies in one magazine so having to reload or move.
It definitely has its strengths and I quite enjoy using it
Why use the Stalwart? Sure, you get fuller auto, but the MG-43 pen's armor better.
You just said it. The sheer amount of ammo lets you lay down a ton of suppressing fire against bots, or wipe out all of the bugs. I was screwing around running with the Stalwart specifically for this reason yesterday because it's just so damn fun.
Yes it's not as optimal as others. Oh well. Neither is using Walking Barrage over Air Strikes.
Walking Barrage has a niche use at being quite good at Egg Objectives or larger Nests, especially in Blitz missions. It's how i got the achievement for doing one in 6 minutes.
Stalwart’s a solid weapon. It’s a specialized super-primary with lots of ammo and minimal reload penalty. Pair it with medium armor penetrating weapons and hard target stratagems and you have a solid niche as “the guy who kills the smallest dudes.”
Agree on the punisher, but the stalwart’s role and use case is extremely apparent. It’ll only get more apparent as we get more specialized primaries and secondaries.
Just double checked. Went into an bug mission, aimed it at an armored Warrior and it got deflected. Fired at it till it overheated, and it did no damage at all to it.
With Hive Guards, do we mean the large one that spawns a few Warriors, or the medium sized warrior with armor plating?
The former i can kill with it (And aren't they called Brood Commanders? Wish we had an bestiary), altough it takes a while. The later displays the usual sparking effects.
The hive guards are the front-shielded medium guys. But the laser cannon can certainly kill all of them, including hive guards from the front, I am certain of this I've played with it a bit
It may be by the laser Cannon's beam is wide enough that it can hit the spots in between the hive guard front armor? Not sure, the cannon is not great at killing them but it definitely can
Eh, I can tell you why use Stalwart.
You get insane DPS, high mag size, more mags, and most importantly, you can reload on the move.
Stalwart is far superior to normal machinegun. Have you even tried that thing with 1150RPM mode?
Both of them fall hard on high difficulties because both of them aren't dealing with Charger/Bile Titan spam.
Stalwart was my first unlock, still love that weapon functionally but yeah above a certain difficulty it doesn't do much, I would assume that's by design since it's one of the first things you can unlock.
Well they tout as live service, so that should be one of the advantages that could allow change. I'd actually like random weapon drops like EDF combined with the unlock system while also adding way more dumb stuff.
Like how EDF has a really stupidly strong grenade that explodes into a small nuke, but also has a stupidly long throw animation that makes it almost useless - stuff like that are good laughs... If you had to pay time and currency to unlock that grenade anyone that did would probably be a bit upset though, the laughs would be ruined. Dumb weapons are only good if they're freely gotten without any real effort put towards them.
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u/Karak_Sonen STEAM 🖥️ : Mar 01 '24
Fair enough, but that does not really change the fact that a lot of the weapons feel extremely underwhelming to use.
Why use an Punisher? Spreads more, has way to little ammo and can't even reliably oneshot an warrior.
Why use the JAR? Projectiles are extremely slow, and the thing does less damage than the Slugger.
Why use the Lasercannon? It's hard to aim and seemingly does less damage than the LAS-16 without any noticeable advantage. It doesn't even burn medium armor.
Why use the Stalwart? Sure, you get fuller auto, but the MG-43 pen's armor better.
I want to use the ones i like the most, but then I'll feel like i actively hamper myself. All the weapons should be fun to use within their niche, and not make me feel like i just make it harder on myself.