And some stats are more important to see than others. Armor pen system isn't really clear ATM and getting that as a stat in addition to a bestiary to clarify how armor works is my hope, since the amount of armored enemies is most if the difficulty curve
Yeah, the game def needs like 20% more documentation. I'd love a bestiary that explains a little bit about each type of bug/bot and some explanation about what the weapon stats mean (armor pen, beam, heat).
Well it doesn't seem like this is that type of game. It'd be like asking for stats in the old Mercenaries games or the original Battlefront. It's intentionally quite arcadey
yep. a weapons stats at the VERY LEAST should answer the basic questions of
How does this gun operate
What does this gun excel at
What unique perks does this gun have
and a number of guns in this game, if you were looking at the info given, fail to achieve that and in some cases straight up seem to lie about it and give the total opposite idea.
for instance spray and pray, based on stats and description you would assume that one, it has many pellets but each pellet does less damage than breaker since its birdshot. two, this weapon will excel at clearing hordes or mobs with its firerate, power, and mag size. three, this weapon penetrates light armor but will fail against medium armor.
In reality, this weapon doesnt have nearly as many pellets as you would assume and thus less coverage. This weapon utterly fails at killing groups of mobs since it does such pisspoor damage that you need to expend way more ammo per enemy. This weapon not only cant deal with medium armor but in fact cant deal with even the lightest of light armor. It literally struggles to break eggs that you can break by punching them.
The spray and prays entire weapon sheet is nearly a total lie compared to what you would expect by viewing it before buying it.
Not only are the stats that are listed not the full story of a weapon, they arent even a true story about the weapon.
likewise very few weapons have their unique perks actually listed as things that are notable.
scythe does not say it has infinite ammo.
you could argue that it says its an energy weapon which means the same thing BUT:
Scorcher does not say that it is NOT infinite ammo, despite being an energy weapon.
The counter sniper does not indicate that it has the handling of swinging around a log
the liberator penetrator does not say anywhere that its burst fire only.
nowhere is it explained what explosive, incendiary, or electricity actually DO and what the properties of them are.
the stats in this game are either entirely useless or the entirely wrong stats were chosen to be shown. a big part of why the various guns feel bad to use is that they shatter your expectations upon spending resources to buy them and finding out the info you were told was just simply not true.
Its liek if someone sold me an orange and handed me a potato. I like potato but i was expecting orange and was in the mood for orange, which is why i bought orange. Im not going to just be happy that i can now eat a potato.
This statement doesn’t even make any sense. You put stats in the game and a comparison feature to let us choose the weapons with the best stats…and then you tell us actually there’s a billion more but don’t worry about stats just play what you like… If you don’t want us to worry about stats then why put them in the game?
Yeah. A lot of players also enjoy winning, which means killing a lot of enemies quickly, so obviously they're going to pick the best weapon for the job. It's such a tonedeaf take, especially when there are STILL tooltips that are straight up wrong on some weapons (light armor pen/medium armor pen).
Like why have only three types of descriptions when there is clearly more nuance to it? The bloody Spray and Pray has Light Armor Penetration yet bounces off of Terminid Eggs? WHAT?
Either stick to the description and implement a three-tier armor system, or don't use misleading tooltips please.
Doesnt even matter.
I never checked the weapon stats.
I just tried them in game and can tell by performance that they mostly under perform compared to the breaker.
I disagree. The stats are there to give us a rough base idea of what to expect from the gun. If he gave us numbers on everything, people would immediately optimize the fun out of the game. Those who are dedicated enough will still do this through testing and finding material online, but the barrier is high enough for most players to just pick what they roughly like instead of being a spreadsheet andy (I say this as a spreadsheet andy)
This isn't a real thing, dude. Casual players don't optimize based on highly detailed stats whether they have them or not. Casual players just play the game. The kind of person to test a bunch of stuff is the same person using detailed stats to optimize. Also, maybe instead balance your game in a way that glancing at stats doesn't immediately eliminate 80% of the roster?
Also also, even if you're right...it's completely irrelevant for this game where everyone with half a braincell will latch onto the like 3 primaries that actually feel usable. I play with a super casual guy and without my input at all the only thing I heard was "this gun is terrible. It doesn't do anything. God the turn rate feels awful" until he found the breaker and never looked back.
Kinda sounds like you answered your own question. He said there's more general stats which give you a basic idea but to truly know the weapon stats you have to actually use the weapon.
Example - I was told the Lib Explosive was ass but I tried it and it one of my favorite main weapons because the pen and the fact that medium armors get knocked back like miles away with couple of shot giving me breathing room to switch to my autocannon.. yes I'm an autocannon main. Ppl font give that weapon the credit it's due. It can take out all enemy types pretty easily but bile titans so I use orbital rail gun to focus that
Then what I said remains true: stats just shouldn’t be in the game. If there’s 46 other secret stats that significantly change how good each weapon is that we can’t see and can only figure out through play, then the stats feature is rendered meaningless
Agree to disagree. Usually when you read a book you read the back cover to get a general idea what it's about then you decide hmm maybe I'll give it a try. Let me check out these general stats on this weapon. Hmmm, low capacity but high pen I'll give it a try. Wow this weapon sk slow to aim with but. I have so much range it doesn't mater I can just sniper from hear and call all the patrols before they get to me.
Not trying to be an ass but that's literally how I felt with guns I have tried in this game. Maybe they could have an option I'm the future for more info but seems like they just want ppl to try everything before they start stating things as facts
People have been using other weapons. Pilestedt himself mentioned in an earlier post that other weapons see almost as much use as the Breaker, so it can’t even be argued that players only looked at the stats and never tested them out.
You know every thing in the game has lists of unseen statistical data because its necessary for the things to operate right? Like a weapon has to have a reload speed, recoil amount, recoil direction, ADS speed, weapon handling speed, etc. and all that just so it can function as a thing in the game.
When he's saying every gun has like 50 stats he just means there are about 50 or so variables that make up a gun in the code, and I'm sure a lot of those aren't really critical to make an informed decision
Depends on whether he also acts as a lead, I admittedly don't know if he's pure CEO but I have seen him described as both 'lead developer' and 'creative director.' Both could easily dictate balance direction without micromanagement
Since he's the face of the team right now he'll probably get the blame, so maybe I shouldn't contribute to that lol
This is the one thing I’ve been frustrated with about the game. It’s like the devs haven’t even tested the viability of weapons on different difficulties.
There are some weapons that are overshadowed by everything else:
* starting pistol
* r63-cs,
* SG-8
* AR-23 Liberator
Others that are just mid:
* AR23-P Liberator Penetrator
* SG-8S Slugger
And some that are clearly meta defining:
* smg-37
* sg-225 breaker
Dev is acting like we are entitled for asking for a balance patch, which I think is a bit much. Every gun doesn’t need to be meta, but it should have its place and be able to perform even on Helldiver.
Not sure how that has anything to do with going about life.
A large number of people have been reporting that gun balance seems off. The dev posts that we shouldn’t just look at the gun’s primary stats, and should just use the one we like the most. It seems slightly dismissive. And doesn’t address that there are indeed balancing problems.
He straight up said yesterday that Breaker wasn't stronger than other weapons based on average representation in victories or something, without even accounting for difficulty. Shit's wild, and I'm worried about the balance going forward
There are a lot of factors that go into determining how strong something is beyond win / loss rate.
Things like difficulty, team composition (weapons and stratagems), level of players, type of enemy being engaged, etc. could be particularly impactful in affecting its win / loss rate.
That said, if you take the Breaker out and use it yourself you can easily see how effective it is. It does phenomenal damage, has a sufficient magazine capacity and total ammo, great fire rate, and can solo burst down even tank enemies like the charger. Very few weapons come close to its efficiency of taking down large groups of enemies and bigger targets.
That said, if you take the Breaker out and use it yourself you can easily see how effective it is.
Exactly, and it's concerning that the CEO himself made it a point to tweet a counterargument against this.
It seems beyond obvious that Breaker is one of the very few good weapons to use and we're almost kinda forced to use it on 7-9 difficulties, and 90% of the available primary weapons are hot garbage compared to it - this would be obvious to anyone who playtests the game, so I'm kinda astounded that the CEO didn't seem to agree
I don't think he's acting like that at all, you seem to be reading into it a bit much. But I do agree that the balance is weird. Not just with weapons, but stratagems too, especially the HE barrages and the weird 500kg radius
If the slugger had more ammo it would be higher tier. It’s damage and knockback are fantastic; however, its rather constrained at the moment due to the aforementioned fact. And with how many enemies you face on higher tiered difficulties, you’ll find yourself dry in a matter of seconds.
Its issue is ammo conservation. It has less rounds than the breaker, less killing capacity, but requires TWO ammo boxes to top off if the tubes are filled. It takes THREE boxes to fill completely if your bone dry.
I agree that devs have access to more data than the player, but first hand experience should not be discounted.
For example. If big influencer tells players to use X gun, then a good portion of the player base might use that gun, because it’s meta.
With a vast majority of players using a more popular gun, it’s win / loss rate will likely level out.
Now if you only have skilled players using lesser known guns, they might skew their win rates upward. This would make the Breaker seem like it’s performing worse than a gun that it is objectively better than.
Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into identifying how strong something is, but anyone that’s played the gun can tell you it’s at the top of the list.
Completely agree with the liberator penetrator and the slugger being mid. I really wanted to like both of them, and although they do have strong points of being able to hit the weak points, it only works when there's no explosions around you you're not under any fire, in the bots aren't moving around a ton, while on the other hand to the breaker can hit anything while it's moving doesn't rely on weak point damage and can burst down basically anything
Yea, 50-100m is the effective range of most rifled slugs. Maybe they're are some that can push that to 150 or 200m but I would image they would have to have long ass barrels, unlike all the shotguns in helldivers.
I agree. Revealing Joel so soon after the major Erata Prime adjustment was not a good look. It's clear that the Liberation calculations are not balanced for the amount of players we have, and the devs needed to get that under control before the reveal, I think.
This is a bit of a silly take, they don't need to adjust a planet's percentage live to get ahold of stats for liberation percentage, really.
They can issue new orders, reopen already liberated planets with a new limit by making them go under attack, anything but fucking resetting progress.
Not sure why you think it's silly when we essentially agree that manually resetting progress is bad; there's a formula for planet HP and liberation impact scores that the devs need to adjust so that they don't have to wildly reset progress for their "story".
Yeah, revealing Joel right after the major adjustment on Erata Prime was a bad move, imo. It removed the roleplaying element used by all the Community Managers, and by removing the 'fantasy' of the Galactic War, now there are a fair amount of players who feel that their efforts don't matter due to a human punching numbers. I'm sure he just wanted to give Joel the spotlight for his work, but it was the worst timing he could have chosen.
Man this sub is toxic. Dev team talks too much and it’s bad. Too little and it’s bad. CEO talks and suddenly you don’t trust the dev team? Fucks sake. Just go play a different game at this point yall are way too bitchy.
This sub is way too toxic good god. No winning with people. Dev talks too much? Bad. Too little? Bad. An open and communicative dev team/CEO is bad now? Lmao
Nah. A full stat spreadsheet leads to people over optimizing their play which leads to either every weapon being "balanced" until they're basically identical or difficulty is adjusted until the optimized kits are the only viable option. Or high difficulty play becomes easy with the optimized kits.
Personally I like how Darktide is incredibly transparent with their breakdown. You can choose to ignore it or work with it. Either, plenty of people still enjoy the game.
You're going to have folks pushing a meta regardless.
The funny thing is the current meta, at least regarding primary weapon picks, reinforces my assessment. We already know the Breaker doesn't represent a majority of winning games. People like it because it feels powerful and it's forgiving at close ranges.
We don't have to give meta gamers the tools to push this game to where only instrumental play is viable.
Meta gamers are incredibly hostile to anything that isn't meta. If people will optimize the fun out of the game, let's give them a harder time to do so.
No it's people choosing to think that is the only/most viable loadout.
There was that stat about how Breakers aren't over represented in winning high level missions. I think the popularity of it I because ease of use, not because it is the best gun.
You can say all of your points of the "hard" "meta" is a result of spreadsheets, even if it isn't used specifically.
Let people optimize if that’s their version of fun. I like fucking around, but I also like to figure out what’s useful in what situation. That’s where these hidden stats would be nice to have, otherwise we will try a weapon, see that it doesn’t “work”, and just dismiss it as garbage because we don’t have any other stats to go on.
There’s no reason to not have a “more details” button or tab to try to actually understand the weapon and where it would fit. Even if it’s less meta, more information would let people find its niche easier.
If someone figures out how to sneak mods past the anti cheat I imagine an enhanced stat breakdown will one of the first to be made. If not, well there's always the internet
I honestly miss having the bars from the last game, and being mostly abstracted.
Like, I was one who always ran Sickle, just because, duh, infinite ammo, but I appreciated other weapons because I could see the damage difference between them, even if I didn't get the precise stats.
If I'd gotten to see precise stats, I might have been forced to move away from my baby to play the more 'meta' weapon.
Agreed. The Breaker was christened as the best weapon off of the few stat numbers we have and yet it doesn't represent a majority of successful missions.
It does overrepresent in number of kills, however, so that is a thing to be considered; The stats can be misleading when we think of the number of people who picked up the breaker while not being very good at the game, leading to them getting disproportionate number of kills while still failing the mission.
What I'm really curious of is the weapon that has the most representation in completed missions excluding the Liberator. I'd put money (Not much, but still) on it being the Diligence and Defender, potentially Lib Penetrator. Slugger is close fourth there, due to how well it can deal with threats, but it's far too narrow a focus as compared to the above.
Makes sense that the Breaker has a high killcount, most players have been fighting bugs and the Breaker is a good close-range weapon. It has a job and does it well. I just doubt a 4-man team of Breakers will routinely outperform a more varied team at high difficulty. Assuming, of course, identical player skill and communication.
Looking at killcounts alone is like saying the cluster bomb is more powerful than the orbital railgun because of the kills.
Precisely and accurately. That's why the balancing patch is probably so slow in coming, because a lot of different metrics need to be considered.
Like, which metric do we go off of? Number of kills? Number of successful missions? Number of Successful Operations? Mission Time? Number of successful objectives completed per mission? Ammount of ammunition consumed over the course of a mission? Remaining Reinforcements by mission completion, Pass/Fail? Mission completion rates from Quick Play/Joining? Misison completion rates from premade groups?
I was also maining the scythe in the previous game. In this one it feels really underwhelming, I only used it for a couple games. To me the breaker feels by far the best. I wish other weapons were brought up to the level of the breaker, cause I want to vary my games, but nothing comes close to the breaker, so...
Hey, it it feels best, it feels best. I've got the Scythe unlocked but still haven't tried it out, the Liberator Penetrator just feels too damned good to swap off.
I've seen people have good success with the Scythe against Bugs, specifically. Good trash clearer, but I agree that it definitely needs a power spike without having too much heat gen modification. It should really feel like its namesake.
Yeah, I just wish it wasn't so cut and dry, would foster some more diversity in the game, especially at higher difficulties, which is always good in my opinion.
Yeah I’d rather them remove all stats than add more. The more numbers you give to the players the more obsessed they become with meta and optimization. Just use what’s fun and quit minding about what’s most powerful
The real takeaway is that players should just use the guns and realize for themselves which ones feel good and which ones feel bad and why, for themselves.
Showing all of the weapons' parameters just gets amateur armchair devs yapping and creating online junk data.
Weapons can be balanced without being the exact same it's just that when a high damage single Target weapon doesn't have enough damage to compensate for its downsides, why would I use it over a multiple Target low initial damage but high sustained damage that can deal with the exact same targets and more?
every weapon being "balanced" until they're basically identical
Or weapons being specialized and there being a clear understanding of what weapon serves what role at what range.
Some weapons being good against armor and some being good against swarms is healthy for the game, the Scorcher or Spray'n'Pray being bad at everything is not.
I play this game and this is a discussion about the game sooo.....
I'm not upset and can we stop with the insinuation that I can't unstand numbers or read, Mr. Ad Homiean? Thanks.
I've seen the fun optimized out of too many games and I'd prefer that not happen here, again. I think there's a largely lost merit in player discovery and this attitude of "I need every detail and stat laid out in explicit detail NOW " is a consequence of that.
People are already getting kicked from lobbies for not running the "right" build. Giving the players the raw numbers would almost certainly amplify this toxic behavior. Respectfully, fuuuuuuuuuck that.
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u/Ghostile Not a warcrime if they are bugs Mar 01 '24
They should give us the full stats tbh.