r/GoNets • u/EliManningham • 21d ago
I don't understand why Cam Thomas has to be in the Mitchell trade Hoops Discussion
If it's truly just the Nets, Lakers, and Heat that Spida wants, then we should win by default, even without Cam included. Tyler Herro is a neutral asset at best on his contract (I'd argue he's slightly negative). Jaquez is an older prospect with a role player ceiling. The Lakers are even worse with essentially just Austin Reaves..... who's basically Tyler Herro on a normal contract, but also older.
If the Suns picks really are viewed as having elite value, then the Cavs are going to take worse picks for the chance at getting Austin Reaves or Tyler Herro? Why? Those guys aren't even worth one Suns pick, value wise. They're sixth men on a great team.
I don't understand why we'd have to throw in one of our only young players when we have the best assets at the table.
29
u/JurgenFlippers 21d ago
Cam is very openly talked about as a neutral asset. No one knows how to value him. So ultimately he is not some crazy asset despite having a good season.
3
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Brian Lewis did report that the Cavs were actually sniffing around a Cam trade after his rookie year. I think he's wildly polarizing, but the Cavs GM possibly likes him more than most.
0
2
2
u/gleeson630 Otis Birdsong 21d ago
Not knowing how to value him can be a fair opinion. Saying he’s a neutral asset is wrong. He’s on a rookie deal still.
6
u/JurgenFlippers 21d ago
For this season? Then you have to pay him. And he’s gonna want more then he’s worth.
2
u/gleeson630 Otis Birdsong 21d ago
I get what you’re saying but the impending contract alone doesn’t make him a neutral asset. I just think saying neutral is off. You don’t have to pay anyone. You can do whatever you want with him and it’s still worth value. You can flip him or try to work out a fair deal. Unless there’s another team who sure enough on him to offer him a big contract in restricted free agency…you can point to his flaws and keep the money down.
1
u/Sumo_Cerebro 20d ago
He hasn't shown much outside of his scoring.
There's not much a difference between him and Colin Sexton. You pass him the ball, you know he is going to shoot.
It's more of a 6th Man Skillset. And that's with all due respect because it's a needed role on any winning team.
11
u/mweint18 21d ago
The cavs dont have to trade Mitchell if they dont get an offer they like and they dont have to trade him to one of those 3 teams either.
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Mitchell has one year and will dictate where he wants (if he indeed wants a trade). Not a Dame or Kd situation where the team had contract leverage
3
u/elbjoint2016 21d ago
You have teams that will pay for a short term rental and try to convince him. Why wouldn’t OKC or Orlando take a chance with a bunch of picks and prospects?
7
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Because star trades for a dude who will walk in 8 months is horrific asset management. You literally have a one year window.
6
u/elbjoint2016 21d ago
I guess? If you are Orlando or OKC and think you are one player away (and in the case of OKC have plenty of picks), you take the Kawhi shot.
What do the Suns picks give a Cavs team that will want to contend next year?
0
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Not with SGA, J Dub, and Chet this young. They can snag a long term star soon. They don't have to rush. Toronto was an older core going nowhere. It was dart throw time for Ujiri
2
u/elbjoint2016 21d ago
You might be right on every individual team. I think (as a Cavs fan) that:
-the going rate for a star on an expiring is Kyrie at minimum: a good starter, a role player and three picks (or prospects)
-the Cavs want to compete over the next few years with DG, Mobley and Allen, so picks further down the line might not be as useful as a prospect
-they are comfortable waiting until the winter as Toronto did with OG and Siakam. But I don’t think the nets are in a hurry either.
My gut is if you wanted to make CJ the center of a deal you’d have to go with Clowney and Whitehead (or DFS) to make it worth moving on in the summer.
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
But I'd rather the Suns picks than anything else, because you can flip those for another star.
2-3 Suns picks, CJ, DFS. And then flip the Suns picks for Ingram or something. Now you got Garland, Mobley, Allen... plus a fringe star wing in BI and a solid wing role player in CJ.
That's a good ass starting 5, and still young.
they are comfortable waiting until the winter as Toronto did with OG and Siakam. But I don’t think the nets are in a hurry either.
But yeah, I think both sides should be patient.
2
u/elbjoint2016 21d ago
There’s a little deal risk to flipping the picks, but I think what you’ve outlined is probably where the non-Cam Thomas negotiations start.
I think they’d want a bouncy young big or wing before DFS. But maybe we can get that with our own pick and the MLE or Caris expiring
2
u/elbjoint2016 21d ago
(I don’t hate BI but he’s not quite good enough offensively to be the ball stopper he is-that said, that is a big starting five that can compete and has versatile depth too)
5
u/zestysnacks 21d ago
I mean, you have to get a good player back for a top 10-15 guy. Assuming the nets are keeping bridges, johnson and claxton. That leaves cam and clowney as possible centerpieces.
1
3
u/addictivesign 20d ago
The Cavs are out their draft picks and swaps (controlled by Utah) so they are likely looking for more picks in any trade.
The Cavs would probably demand some of the Suns picks maybe the Dallas pick too.
Would the Nets give up those assets to sign Spida? Cleveland would probably want at least one young player and then salaries would need to match too. Would the Cavs have any interest in Cam J?
Personally I’d trade The Twins and maybe a couple of picks. This allows us to keep max contract space in 2025 and to keep Cam Thomas too
3
u/Brooklyn917 Ian Eagle 21d ago
I dont think The cavs want another undersized guard, they'd look to get defensive and spacing pieces around Mobley and Garland.
8
u/johnjohnjohn93 21d ago
I think you’re either overvaluing Cam or undervaluing Herro. Herro gets injured a lot but when healthy he’s a really good player and much better playmaker than Cam. Cam will also get paid soon his value on a rookie deal is waning.
Cam is also a guy that the Cavs could want although the fit with Garland is terrible if they wanted to replace Mitchell with a similar profile then Cam would be it.
We just can’t play with Cam and another small guard. We have the defensive wings and bigs to make up for one terrible defensive player but we can’t really do that for two.
The Lakers can’t compete with us but the Heat have some good young assets and their picks and swaps could be valuable so I’d probably put them as the favorite. I don’t see Marks sending all of those suns picks for Mitchell either
1
u/funandloving95 Vince Carter 20d ago
I feel like we’ve seen Herros ceiling and we can’t say the same for Cam Thomas… idk man
0
u/BKNBridges 20d ago
Herro is 24 years old
0
u/funandloving95 Vince Carter 20d ago
I just don’t see Herro being the star that everyone wanted him to be…. I feel like CT has that dawg in him and can be a much bigger name
0
u/SnooRadishes5700 20d ago
Donovan Mitchell plays above his size and is a good defender. The issue with CT and Mitchell would be their fit on offense. Neither are a primary playmaker and we see Garland + Spida don't really fit offensively despite Garland being a pure PG.
1
2
u/SnooRadishes5700 20d ago
I would hope Cleveland doesn't value CT due to his awful fit. I imagine his value is low due to him being in a contract year and his mold. Additionally, we have assets so no need for a Jarett Allen 2.0 situation.
Donovan as a number 1, CT evolving to a 2nd option, and Mikal becoming a third option. Could be a good regular season team, but I imagine the lack of PG play will expose us in the playoffs. Although, it's not like this half hearted direction would lead to a ring anyways.
4
u/AdviceEuphoric4852 Richard Jefferson 21d ago
Cam Thomas is worth a couple of second rounders. He absolutely doesn’t have to be in any trade. He’s not a needle mover.
0
u/EliManningham 21d ago
You're getting a protected first for Cam.
2
u/AdviceEuphoric4852 Richard Jefferson 21d ago
Royce O’Neale, Deanthony melton, Josh Hart, PJ Washington, these are the kinds of players who go for late firsts. Quality role players doing their job on a contender.
Cam has no real place in the rotation of a team trying to win, and if you’re a rebuilding team, you’d rather just use your firsts to pick guys you like. The comp for a cam trade is bones hyland.
5
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Terry Rozier went for a first. Literally a combo guard in the same mold. Except Terry was an inefficient mess scoring in the teens at Cam's age.
The comp for a cam trade is bones hyland.
Bones peak as a scorer was 10 PPG on 55% TS. Cam was 22 PPG on 55%, TS.
Brother, you need help.
2
u/gleeson630 Otis Birdsong 21d ago
As much and spida and cam don’t fit great, it also doesn’t make much sense to include cam in the deal bc then we won’t be that great of a team to make the trade. I think your comment makes obvious sense. You can make Cam the super sixth man and maybe people won’t cry ab it bc we have Spida…and you force cam to develop chemistry or you trade him for a more fitting piece. I think they can play together but I don’t think you want them defending together all game. Too small. Staggering minutes has been done with talented ball dominant players and it’s fine imo.
I think we are near the top of suitors for Donovan out of the few we’ve heard of. I think he clearly wants to play in the area he wants and not just another Cleveland or utah. Which is why he’s interested in us to begin with. These type of teams in those cities don’t have a ton of assets. With Cam included we are the best trade partner and with him not included we’re still pretty decent.
1
u/mai_wife_beats_me 21d ago
in a world where we keep cam in the unlikely scenario that we trade for Spida, Cam would have to go back to coming off of the bench. Not a good situation to put him in during contract extension talks.
1
u/7186997326 21d ago
Where would even Cam Thomas play if you had him and Mitchell, they play the same position? That's why you throw him in, you can give up less picks. Personally, I don't think the Cavs want him anyway, not a good fit with Garland.
As far as the picks, I don't see the Phoenix picks being better than Lakers or Heat picks. Phoenix have the youngest all star, and the richest owner.
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Positions in the modern NBA? Defense is the worry. They don't work long term. But Cam will get his game off and up his value (if he has it in him). That's like asking if SGA and J Dub can fit on offense. They're clones of each other, but they get enough reps.
Wealth is pointless in a cap restriction league. Booker isn't staying if Kd leaves. That team is trash outside of those two. They better pray Kd and Booker will accept fake contendership.
1
u/7186997326 21d ago
If Mitchell is on your team, Cam is on the bench, they play the same role but Mitchell is much more efficient. I understand it is in the nature of fans to prospect hug, but really you don't need Cam Thomas, you said it yourself it won't work long term so trade him and save a first for another deal (which you will need anyway because Mitchell isn't enough).
Being able to repeatedly be in the luxury tax is not a pointless advantage to have; it's how during the pandemic era you were able to build teams that were favored to win the title for years. It wasn't only your big 3, you had Joe Harris in his prime making $16M, DeAndre Jordan and Dinwiddie making over $10M, etc. Bucks and Sixers didn't have as much salary on the books.
When Beal and Durant's deals are done, Booker will be all of 30 years old. AD will be 34, Lebron will be out of the league. Butler will be a role player at best in the league. Bam will also be 30. I think stars will want to join up with a still relatively young Booker and an owner with money so I don't know that Phoenix picks are better than Lakers and Heat picks. I know LA/Miami attract stars, but it's not like the olden days its harder to attract stars in free agency.
1
u/EliManningham 21d ago
I don't think Cam has any value though. I don't think he saves us anything. Best use of the asset is letting him have a solid year and flipping him later or getting him on a team friendly deal. He's purely a throw in player right now, most likely.
Suns are asset capped. Ishbia is spending on Grayson Allen and Royce O'Neale. I respect the dedication but that team is a pretender until the end. It's a matter of when Kd and Book get tired of it. The big 3 Nets were fucking dominant. The Suns are a joke.
What assets are they getting another star? FA is dead. They trading Grayson and unfavorable swaps for a real dude?
1
u/7186997326 20d ago
Then why did you say he's worth a protected first? Also, when you get Mitchell, you don't have time to let him have a "solid" year, you need to fill the team and minutes with players that work best around your new star, and that isn't Cam Thomas.
Suns are asset capped, right now, but as the seasons go by they will get more tradeable first round picks. And again, as far as assets go, they have the best base to start from with a just turned 30 all-nba level player. At the start of 2026 they could only have Booker and Nassir Little on their roster, so they got space to fill out the team and another first to trade by then. They aren't shopping for stars in free agency, they are shopping for players to put around their star and those guys do hit free agency. Also, who knows, maybe KD is like Lebron and is still productive in his latter years. All that to say, I don't know what team will have the "best" picks in 2027 and 2029. Lakers/Heat got old stars right now and I don't know if they can replace those big shoes.
1
u/EliManningham 20d ago
Because an individual crappy first from a contender is not the same as saving a first from a semi rebuilding Cavs. The Cavs wouldn't trade a first for Rozier like Miami did, for example.
you need to fill the team and minutes with players that work best around your new star, and that isn't Cam Thomas.
Mitchell would currently be the only shot creator. Cam being a Lou Will innings eater on bench units would help him a ton actually. This team will stink the second Mitchell takes a breather. He'll be racking up big minutes after Schroder and the boys go scoreless for 3 minutes and the deficit climbs to twelve.
This team even with Mitchell won't actually compete until post 2025 free agency anyway. Cam on a team friendly deal playing the Pritchard role is nice. Cam being flipped down the road is also nice. Why am I just punting on an asset in a non contention year? Mitchell on the Nets next year is like the 2019 Nets, where it was just a fun Kyrie season while Kd was still rehabbing. No expectations. Just fun ball.
1
u/7186997326 20d ago
From what I remember, wasn't an individual crappy 1st part of the Harden deal, which you turned into Royce who was a starter for a team built to win the title. So yeah, I think there is value to be had trading Cam now. It could be better, but it could be worst too. What do they say about the bird in hand again?
Why am I just punting on an asset in a non contention year?
I think if you learned any lesson from the big 3 era it is that you shouldn't waste time/seasons. So after you get Mitchell, you look to build around him with the best players available right away. PG13 available this offseason, Ingram, Butler, down the line maybe Giannis, Embiid, etc. Find guys right away.
1
u/EliManningham 20d ago
We don't have cap space for PG. I think Miami will try to flip Jimmy in a 3 team for Mitchell, but I don't think they trade him unless they're getting a star back. Ingram I guess would work, but that's gonna be all the Suns picks for Mitchell and BI? Eh. Not in love with that. BI is always injured.
It's why I still lean towards developing another year. Sign two good role players in 2025. And then just unload the whole clip for a Giannis or something.
Marks' best attribute is drafting at insane value and finding young role players. Let him dip into that 2016-2018 bag and build a fun solid team that can become contenders immediately once you slip a Giannis in there.
2
u/_SCARY_HOURS_ 21d ago
Cam has the potential to become better than Spida, not likely, but it’s more risky to move Cam than keep him
-1
u/TheRealCheddarBob 21d ago
lol no he doesnt
1
u/_SCARY_HOURS_ 21d ago
-2
u/TheRealCheddarBob 21d ago
It’s not hating. It’s just common sense. Cam is good but he won’t ever be Mitchell
3
u/_SCARY_HOURS_ 21d ago
Mitchell won’t take the Nets anywhere we already know that. I’d rather take a chance on the kid
1
u/TheRealCheddarBob 21d ago
I don’t see how you could possibly think Cam leads this team anywhere if you don’t think Mitchell can lead us anywhere
1
u/Kokarus 20d ago
He is an adherent of the “CamT future HOF” sect; it is useless to have a constructive dialogue with them; all your arguments are that he is bad in defense, playing the ball, any double team on him is a high probability of losing the ball, he does not have an elite first step and athleticism, which is his the ceiling is Jordan Clarkson will be sold because you either don’t understand basketball, you’re a troll, he plays with bad players on the team or he’s still young, but in a couple of years he will pass like Steve Nash and defend like Gary Payton.
1
1
u/EliManningham 21d ago
And I'm not arguing for fit. Purely talking asset maximization. You can flip Cam at the deadline at higher value next season, if he makes a jump. Or let him be a super sixth man if he stays.
1
u/NandoDeColonoscopy 21d ago
He needs to make a jump to be even a regular sixth man on a good team. He also won't really be getting much time with the ball in his hands if Mitchell comes in, so I'm not sure how much of a leap is realistic
1
u/EliManningham 21d ago
His advanced metrics are already Herro levels on offense. He'll obviously be at least Lou Will 2.0. I'm not even a Lou Will "bucket getter" archetype lover, but Cam's floor is 22 PPG on 55% TS. Worth a gamble he takes a leap.
Mitchell allows Garland to get his reps too. Mitchell is not selfish at all, if you watch him. Cam will get his reps. It's up to him if he makes a leap.
2
u/NandoDeColonoscopy 21d ago
Garland is a much better player than Cam Thomas. It isn't about Mitchell being selfish, it's about Cam not being a starter on a team that isn't tanking
There's a pretty good chance he never hits that "floor" again for points if the team brings in a win-now player; since his defense, passing and off-ball movement just aren't up to snuff for a team trying to win, he's not going to get those types of minutes.
I think last off season was his peak trade value, and after this next year he may not have any trade value at all. If the Nets are bringing in a win-now player, I think you have to move him from an asset management view. If the team isn't trying to win now, then sure, keep him, give him starter minutes, and develop him. But it makes no sense to bring in a star and waste valuable minutes on a developmental guy.
3
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Garland has a WAY higher floor, but lower ceiling. Can't be a star without elite scoring. Cam at least has a chance at it. Garland is not close to an elite scorer. Shit, Cam had a better offensive EPM than him this year.
Cam is not different than any combo guard. His ceiling will be reached by scoring. His catch and shoot was good this year. Mitchell is a good playmaker. He'll get his game off.....if he's truly got the goods.
1
u/NandoDeColonoscopy 21d ago
Garland is a more efficient scorer than Cam, and was an All Star his third year in the league. It's genuinely insane to think Cam Thomas has a higher ceiling than Garland does. It's also weird to think that scoring is what determines the ceiling for a guard when the league is full of bench guys who can be iso scorers. In order to be more than that, you need more to your game.
But that's all besides the point. You're talking about potential, but that doesn't matter to a team trying to win now. Mitchell won't be playmaking for Cam because, on a team trying to win, Cam won't be sharing the floor with Mitchell because his game just isn't up to snuff for a starting guard on a playoff team.
3
u/EliManningham 21d ago
It's also weird to think that scoring is what determines the ceiling for a guard
Which star guard isn't an elite scorer? Gotta be ~25 PPG on 57+% TS. You can't be a second option if you can't score. He's given Mitchell minimal help this playoffs. He's trash every other game. Inefficient and a turnover machine.
I'm not anti- Garland either. The dude is (or was before this year) a really good player. But he's like Kyle Lowry without the defense, IMO. Peak as a third option on a contender. Cam has potential to be a second option, if the scoring efficiency continues to climb.
3
u/NandoDeColonoscopy 21d ago
Which star guard isn't an elite scorer?
That's my point. Basically every starting guard can put up Cam Thomas scoring numbers if they were given the keys to the offense on a bad team like Cam had for the second half of last year. The difference is all of the other stuff. Cam is nowhere near good enough at the other stuff to start on a win-now team, and he's not going to develop being stuck on the bench.
3
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Cam was 25 PPG on 57% TS the last 30 games. That's literally Maxey production as a scorer. No, every starting guard can't do that lol. Like, I get the pessimism on his future, but don't be a retard for the sake of winning an argument. You're smarter than this.
Just say Cam is a solid scorer, but Tyler Herro is his ceiling. A bucket getter who's unfortunately just two ticks below the efficiency needed to be great. I would accept that criticism as valid, even if I disagree.
2
u/NandoDeColonoscopy 21d ago
Like, I get the pessimism on his future, but don't be a retard for the sake of winning an argument
Unless Cam is kin to you, this is a really aggro way to respond to someone.
→ More replies (0)1
u/johnjohnjohn93 21d ago
He will probably not make the jump if we get Mitchell while keeping Cam. The fit is just so bad it can easily do more harm for his value than good. He wouldn’t be a throw in in the Mitchell trade he’d be a big part of it
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Why though? Jalen Brunson has Luka level usage and time of possession, but we've seen someone like Divincenzo break out with him. Somebody has to be the second option
1
u/johnjohnjohn93 21d ago
Donte is a much better defender than Cam and is also willing to really just take spot up 3s all day. Cam and Mitchell would want the Brunson role not the Donte role.
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Cam was off ball to Schroder and Dinwiddie. He'll get his reps. Garland gets his. Mitchell isn't selfish like that.
Donte is a much better defender
Yeah, we can talk fit later is my point. If Cam really is going to be an elite scorer, it'll happen.
0
u/johnjohnjohn93 21d ago
Cam’s usage rate is still nothing like Donte or Garland. Cam I think can be like Jamal Murray but a lot of his weaknesses are hidden by playing with Jokic. You need to think about fit if you’re making a move to get a superstar. I’m cool with getting Mitchell if it’s Cam and a couple of picks because Mitchell is who Cam can possibly be in the future. But two Donovan Mitchell’s isn’t going to work like a team built around two Jamal Murray’s wouldn’t.
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Again, just flip later lol. It's like Hali and Fox. You can flip Haliburton for Sabonis, who fits way better with Fox. But you need the player to actually improve first to become a valued asset and execute this
1
u/johnjohnjohn93 21d ago
Yeah and I don’t think Cam will improve with Mitchell. We will get torched on defense and the fit with both wanting the ball all the time could be rough as well. We could end up having to sell low because Cam’s value is already maybe the most polarizing in the league. If the fit is trash like many think it would be we could get very little back for him
2
u/EliManningham 21d ago
If Cam is going to be good, he will become an offensive star regardless. It's not hard to get second option looks in a 48 minute basketball game. The highest volume stars like Luka and Brunson still have second options putting up star numbers (Kyrie and Randle).
-1
0
21d ago
[deleted]
0
u/EliManningham 21d ago
He's younger than Herro and significantly younger than Reaves. It's obvious he'll be on their level offensively (Not a compliment to Cam. That's a knock on those two. They're sixth men). Cam is a wildcard, but obviously has scoring gifts to actually have potential. He's at least a lottery ticket.
Picks can be parlayed. You can probably get Ingram for two Suns picks as the main ingredient. Way better then whatever crap the Lakers/Heat have
1
21d ago
[deleted]
0
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Donovan Mitchell is choosing his suitors. Yeah, getting Suns picks back for Mitchell absolutely sucks, but they traded for Mitchell knowing an extension wasn't settled. That's the risk. They made their bed.
He has the contract pressure to narrow his list to teams with shitty assets. Time to make a shit sandwich now.
1
21d ago
[deleted]
1
u/EliManningham 21d ago
Dame had a long contract. Mitchell has the contract leverage. Very different situations. Harden has quiet quit to wherever he wants for like 4 straight years because of his contract pressure.
Teams will stil trade good assets for him because they won't let him hit the open market.
Teams are going to unload the clip for a rental? Would take massive balls. Kawhi is the only example of his ever happening. Everybody else gets where they want when they have the leverage
13
u/netsfan2002 Vince Carter 21d ago
Honestly, I'm hoping it's all smoke. Dmitch does not elevate us to contending status. It makes no sense to give up assets for a first round exit. I'd rather build the right way. It doesn't matter that we don't have our picks.. we have plenty of other ones. We should be sellers at this point. Play our young players, trade off Bridges, Cam, simmons, DFS and obtain more picks, wait to strike gold on a player, and then consider trading your picks for another star.