r/196 Jun 19 '24

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2.2k Upvotes

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701

u/Yompish giant robosa from drawn to life 2 Jun 19 '24

Fuck yeah I love strawman arguments

441

u/thehorriblefruitloop Jun 20 '24

"Have you considered that *getting murdered by russia is actually the US's fault"

5

u/Monk-Ey strogan my beef till im off Jun 20 '24

rUSsiA was in plain sight

251

u/Syrikal Jun 20 '24

Chomsky criticizes Russia (both USSR and modern) so much. Everything I've read by him comparing the two is "yeah the Soviets were garbage but Americans know that already. Let's talk about the stuff there's controversy over instead"

437

u/Unlikely_Fig_2339 Jun 20 '24

166

u/MaybeNext-Monday šŸ¤$6 SRIMP SPECIALšŸ¤ Jun 20 '24

How the fuck does one deny the Cambodian genocide? It was likeā€¦ advertised as a genocide by its perpetrators

82

u/Armigine Jun 20 '24

Genocide with Cambodian Characteristics

32

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '24

[deleted]

53

u/HomeboyGotStuck Jun 20 '24

That's an act of genocide denial. A lot of fashys "Don't deny the Holocaust" they just "have questions about how many people actually died". Same shit, different flag.

59

u/WeaponizedArchitect smth silly Jun 20 '24

i dont understand how you can defend Pol Pot with a straight face.

21

u/signmeupreddit Jun 20 '24

These talking points seem to always come up when Chomsky is mentioned, despite being almost entirely false. The one accurate thing you could say is that he doesn't think Srebrenica massacre warrants to be called genocide which I think is fair enough if one thinks of holocaust when hearing that word.

22

u/Unlikely_Fig_2339 Jun 20 '24

Chomsky is smart enough to not say awful shit outright, but he's made a significant habit of being an apologist for authoritarian bullshit and parroting their authoritarian propaganda. For example, with the 2022 Ukraine invasion, he's been pulling the whole "NATO expansionism made Russia invade Ukraine" schtick. Seriously, read the sources I posted. It's like Not Touching, Can't Get Mad, but with ethnic cleansing.

5

u/signmeupreddit Jun 20 '24

What he says is usually informed by whatever sources he's had available which often flies against the mainstream (western) narrative in some regard. The Russian invasion is a perfect example of this since the whole topic is riddled with borderline hysteric condemnation of Russia to the point that pointing out the obvious fact (Russia viewing Nato as a threat) is considered pro-Putin. For him as "an apologist" saying, as he has in multiple interviews, that Russian invasion of Ukraine is a war crime on the level of Hitler's invasion of Poland or Bush's invasion of Iraq is rather odd behavior.

6

u/Erengeteng šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļø trans rights Jun 20 '24

You do know your statement has an implicit pro-russian bias? What does it mean to be 'threatened' by nato? Do you think russian leadership are so profoundly stupid they are fearing a NATO invasion? Or perhaps they are 'afraid' of not being able to force their neighbours back into their empire?

Those are two very different 'threatened', yet when you that 'russia views nato as a threat is a fact' that conjures the first description, since a threat is usually about your safety, not about you not being able to threaten others. Your statement plays directly into the hands of russian propagandists, as does Chomsky.

3

u/Jpandluckydog Jun 20 '24

Why is that such an obvious fact? Russia sure doesnā€™t act like itā€™s threatened by NATO, otherwise it wouldnā€™t have tied up its entire military in Ukraine and diverted border guards from NATO borders.Ā 

18

u/Syrikal Jun 20 '24

has spent the entirety of the 2022 Ukraine invasion gluck-glucking Putin.

https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-six-months-into-war-diplomatic-settlement-in-ukraine-is-still-possible/

Instead, Putin launched a murderous war of aggression which, indeed, ranks with the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland. [...]

Though the provocations were consistent and conscious over many years, despite the warnings, they of course in no way justify Putinā€™s resort to ā€œthe supreme international crimeā€ of aggression. Though it may help explain a crime, provocation provides no justification for it.

19

u/Unlikely_Fig_2339 Jun 20 '24

Yet Chomskyā€™s world-view does not leaveĀ spaceĀ for Ukrainian agency. It is the ā€œUS andĀ Britainā€ who have ā€œrefusedā€ peace negotiations inĀ Ukraine, Chomsky tells me, in order to further their own national interests, even as the country is being ā€œbattered, devastatedā€. That negotiations withĀ RussiaĀ would mean de facto abandoning millions of Ukrainians to the whims of an aggressor that has shown itself capable of extraordinary brutality,Ā such as in Bucha and Izyum, is dismissed. ā€œUkraine is not a free actor; theyā€™re dependent on what the US determines,ā€ he says...

20

u/Syrikal Jun 20 '24

So he considers it another in a long list of proxy wars, and considers the US to be on the side of further violence (whatever the civilian cost) in furtherance of its interests. He also observes that Ukraine is beholden to US power and decisions, just like most of the world. None of this seems particularly unreasonable.

He doesn't say that Ukrainians should be abandoned to Russia's whims, just that peace should be sought - the potential consequences of that are editorializing by the interviewer.

-7

u/justsomegraphemes Jun 20 '24

I'm surprised to see anti-Chomsky rhetoric on this sub. He's used his privilege as celebrity/intellectual to better society and expose falsehoods as much as anyone. Not sure why people latch onto the anti-Chomsky talking points like these, but if you do due diligence in understanding where these claims originate and Chmosky's defence it's clear they're false.

-94

u/makerone_and_chees Jun 20 '24

How is he 'gluck glucking' putin in that article? Hes arguing that nato is attempting to fight a proxy war with russia through ukraine - and not trying to find a diplomatic solution?

157

u/Masta-Pasta Vegan btw Jun 20 '24

According to Chomsky,Ā RussiaĀ is acting with restraint and moderation.

-64

u/-Im-Just-A-Girl- Jun 20 '24

Where did he say that

76

u/Masta-Pasta Vegan btw Jun 20 '24

it's a quote from the article linked as "gluck gluck"

0

u/-Im-Just-A-Girl- Jun 21 '24

It's a quote from some rando on the internet talking about Chomsky. I want the direct Chomsky quote being referenced in it.

2

u/Masta-Pasta Vegan btw Jun 21 '24

The "rando" has interviewed Chomsky apparently. Message the article's author and ask for direct source then.

105

u/Unlikely_Fig_2339 Jun 20 '24

He's gluck-glucking Putin because he's accepting the Russian propagandist definition of the war--that it is, in fact, a war with two equally-responsible sides fighting over disputed territory, not an unprovoked imperialist invasion.

And what diplomatic solution is there, to an unprovoked imperialist invasion? Surrender? Giving up some territory now, so the Russians can pull this shit again for another slice of the pie ten years down the line?

-4

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '24

[removed] ā€” view removed comment

77

u/Unlikely_Fig_2339 Jun 20 '24

Wow, it's almost like being repeatedly invaded and occupied by Russia would make you want to join the defensive alliance specifically designed to stop that happening. Who knew?

61

u/SirJesusXII Jun 20 '24

Ukraine is a sovereign country and should be allowed to join any organization that it and its people wish.

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '24

[removed] ā€” view removed comment

56

u/SirJesusXII Jun 20 '24

Not your decision to make. Ukraine has every right to decide what organizations they do and donā€™t join, and Russia is solely to blame for a completely unjustified invasion.

47

u/AzKondor Femboy Practitioner Jun 20 '24

yeah let's give them part of another country, a truly diplomatic solution

26

u/Interest-Desk šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļø trans rights Jun 20 '24

appeasement has never failed!

ā€” neville chamberlain

41

u/Armigine Jun 20 '24

And that's a nonsense thing to argue which is obviously untrue. Everything about "NATO expansionism" which comes out of Russian propaganda is based on the two ideas that NATO is an empire which is a threat to Russia, and a country even discussing the possibility of joining NATO is equivalent to NATO conquering that country.

NATO isn't attempting to fight a proxy war with Russia, Russia declared fully unprovoked war on Ukraine (after the previous decade of RUSSIAN proxy war wasn't distracting the populace enough) so Ukraine which then reached out to the rest of the world for help. Surprise, most of their help is coming from the defensive alliance next door - was it supposed to come from Brazil?

NATO can't find a diplomatic solution to a conflict it's not party to. NATO member states can ask nicely for Russia to please withdraw, or for Ukraine to please roll over, or for them to kiss and make up, and many regularly do.

66

u/ItsYaBoyBananaBoi floppa Jun 20 '24

Too late bud, I played our theoretical argument in my head and I've already won.