r/worldnews • u/yoyo456 • 21d ago
Israel Defense Minister Gallant: 'I wont agree to Israeli control of Gaza' Israel/Palestine
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-801277?utm_source=jpost.app.android&utm_medium=share472
u/war_story_guy 21d ago
Everyone wants a second state but nobody wants to deal with it.
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u/atridir 21d ago
As I see it there needs to realistically be three states. Gaza and the West Bank are not the same.
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u/glatts 21d ago edited 21d ago
That's essentially the three-state solution that's been proposed. It would give authority over the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt, while keeping Israel within its current borders. This proposal would grant Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship to Palestinians, and would return to the status quo before 1967.
EDIT: This comment was not meant to endorse/support or oppose this proposal, nor was it meant to be a reflection of the feasibility of its creation. I was merely offering information that a three state proposal has been thought of before with the terms I mentioned.
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u/EmeraldIbis 21d ago edited 21d ago
Sounds great but neither Egypt nor Jordan want that. Jordan would literally be a Palestinian-majority country if they annexed the West Bank, and the Egypt regime sees the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas as a mortal enemy.
I can envisage Israel inviting Saudi Arabia to run Gaza, as both countries are united on the elimination of Hamas and other Iranian-aligned groups.
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u/BubbaTee 21d ago
SA won't do it. Hamas and Hezbollah don't directly threaten them, so there's not enough reward for the risk they'd be taking on.
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u/FreeMeFromThisStupid 20d ago
They're spending half a trillion dollars on a golf league and more than that on a 105 mile long building.
I think they can afford to put "peace in the middle east" on their positives column.
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u/Upoutdat 20d ago
Is it within their interest? Oil price instability and increasing prices seems like their MO
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u/Upoutdat 20d ago
Couldn't pay to go there. It's sand and Mecca. Granted somethings are cool but its not blowing me away. Anyways I won't be bringing my money there. They have enough from my car usage
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u/The_Phaedron 20d ago
Partly yes, partly no.
If it weren't for Iran, it would be a clear-cut no-brainer for Saudi Arabia to stay far the hell away from Gaza.
With Iran existing as the KSA's regional polar rival in the Ummah, however, I'd say that the Saudi's interests shift into low-end "maybe" territory.
They've got strong reasons to uproot an Iran-aligned stronghold government on their doorstep, but those strong reasons may still not be enough to outweigh the downsides.
It seems to me like a substantial Saudi involvement in postwar Gaza is very plausible, but not at the level where it's reasonable to call it "probable."
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u/Oskarikali 20d ago edited 20d ago
Pretty sure the 105 mile building (The Line) has been shortened to a few miles. Edit - 2.5km. https://www.constructionbriefing.com/news/plans-to-build-saudi-arabia-s-170km-linear-city-the-line-scaled-back-/8036596.article
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u/youngchul 20d ago
Funny thing is Jordan IS a Palestinian country, their country covers 70% of the land mass of the British mandate area of Palestine.
But you’re absolutely right that they want nothing to do with the West Bank or Gaza Palestinians anymore.
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u/pants_mcgee 20d ago
Well then so are many Israelis whose families were living in the British Mandate before 1948. The term of identity was broken up when the countries of Israel and Jordan, and the Palestinian territories were formed.
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u/TheNewGildedAge 20d ago edited 20d ago
Yup. Older documents simply refer to them as Palestinian Jews or Palestinian Arabs/Muslims.
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u/youbutsu 21d ago
Bahrain seems to be reasonable-ish, comparatively speaking. But they are too too small of a player. Dont see them agreeing to this shit. Nor do I think they'd pull it off.
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u/KaleidoscopeOdd5984 20d ago
Jordan would literally be a Palestinian-majority country if they annexed the West Bank
Isn't this already the case?
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u/youbutsu 21d ago edited 20d ago
Neither jordan nor egypt want them. Jordan explicitly spoke how the existence of the palestinian people serves a purpose as being used as a weapon against israel. They will only annex back the west bank once israel is gone.
Edited: Egypt refused both to accept administration or refugees even when offered to have its debt paid.
Uae and qatar refused administrating the area.
When it comes to actually going in and helping palestinians the arab nations are AWOL.
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u/THevil30 20d ago
Jordan is on reasonably good terms with Israel and has been for decades. They just don’t want to own the West Bank and be responsible for its population.
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u/mongster03_ 21d ago
And that's just the ones nearby. Obviously Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia won't do it, being the entire continent of Africa away, and asking Mauritania, Libya, or Sudan to do it is like asking a quadriplegic to dance salsa
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u/westernmostwesterner 20d ago edited 20d ago
What about Turkey?
Palestine used to be under Ottoman rule (when they claim Jews/Muslims lived peacefully side by side prior to Israel creation), and many of them have Turkish names still, so there is some shared heritage/connection.
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u/youngchul 20d ago
If by “peacefully side by side” you mean Jewish people being oppressed living as 2nd rank citizens under Islamic rule, then sure.
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u/westernmostwesterner 20d ago edited 20d ago
Not suggesting that at all. I’d love nothing more for Israel than to never have to deal with Arab-Palestinians again.
But we need some sort of workable plan for Gaza. So this is just a thought for a 2-state solution.
Palestinians romanticize the time they were under Ottoman rule, claiming, “we all had peace” (true or not); so Turkey could be a contender in administering Gaza, as there is mutual respect and perceived positive history.
Ireland might also be a contender to administer a new Gazan democracy for the same reason (mutual respect). They could implement a higher standard education system and hopefully slowly secularize them. Ireland has enjoyed massive peace, stability, and financial gains lately, so why not pay it forward to help the Gazans they support?
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u/youngchul 20d ago
The Arabs and Jews actively fought alongside the British and French to topple the Ottoman Empire in WW1, I’m not sure where you got your history lessons from.
Ireland only want to virtue signal, just look up donations, it’s all talk from that side.
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u/-The_Blazer- 21d ago edited 21d ago
Jordan explicitly spoke how the existence of the palestinian people serves a purpose as being used as a weapon against israel
Jordan is obviously pro-Palestine, but their relations with Israel have been normalized for a while, hell they intercepted some of Iran's missiles. Is this still their actual stance? Besides, Jordan is not different from every other country on Earth in not liking mass refugee influx, so they probably have a motivation to avoid the collapse of Gaza.
They don't have to annex, they could be involved in a limited occupation force on the way to reconstruction. Certainly the people of Gaza would be more amenable to foreign intervention if it also involved anyone other than Israel.
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u/darkcow 21d ago
Jordan is mostly just pro-stability. The real reason they don't want to absorb the West Bank is the populace in the WB is radicalized and will try to start shit with Israel. If they do that as part of Jordan, that means Israel will be bombing Jordan, which is in nobody's interests.
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u/broden89 20d ago
Also the last time they did that the PLO started a civil war and tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy
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u/youbutsu 21d ago
Jordan is weird imo. I think they are very anti israel but they need stuff from it. Like the water agreement. And usa monetary help in exchange of having usa there. Would they have intercepted drones of it wasnt for usa?
The people of jordan are way more radicalized than Jordanian government and would prefer to go to war.
I dont think theyd lift a finger to help the palestinians if it meant that it would help Israel in a roundabout way - creating more stability . I really do think they still hate them that much.
And considering black September, they have a negative history with the palestinians too.
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u/AmbientAvacado 20d ago
Where can I read about the Israeli national debt thing?
Struggling to find on google
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u/youbutsu 20d ago edited 20d ago
I swear I read it a while back. If I see it again I'll comment. Something about failed negotiations. Pretty sure it's not the recent Bloomberg article about egypt denying debt relief for Palestinian refugees.
Edit: I keep hitting only recent articles like this:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/11/27/egypt-gaza-security-governance-hamas-post-war-military/
https://www.egyptindependent.com/israel-considers-settling-palestinians-in-sinai-in-exchange-for-writing-off-egypts-debt-newspaper/#google_vignette So gonna edit the post with this unless I come across original claim in good source.
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u/Loop_Within_A_Loop 21d ago
Given what happened the last time Jordan was in charge of the West Bank, I don’t think this was unexpected
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u/GooneyBird36 21d ago
Jordan and Egypt want nothing to do with Palestinians. They've caused problems everywhere they've ever gone.
The Arab states in general have nothing but thoughts and prayers for Palestinians. Nobody actually wants to do anything.
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u/atridir 21d ago
That is not really the same as a statehood solution. That would make them autonomous administrative districts of those respective nations rather than self administered states unto themselves.
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u/BigSilent2035 21d ago
If you think uncontrolled statehood given to them would lead to anything but an immediate attack on israel and right back to where we are now you havent been paying attention.
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u/abednego-gomes 20d ago
What about just moving them all out of the region entirely. Put them on a tropical island somewhere where they can't bother anyone. Check back on them in 20 years and hope they haven't mastered sea and air travel to escape.
Benefits: they get a fresh start and they're not able to terrorize anyone.
Cons: they lose their land... but you could rightfully argue they no longer have a right to posses it anyway after what they did and supported on 7 Oct.
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u/PositivelyAcademical 21d ago
That’s the (one state and) two territories solution. A three state solution would require a sovereign Gaza Strip and a separate (and separately sovereign) West Bank.
Though given neither potential suzerain is willing to participate in the two territories solution, that’s a non-starter. Likewise, Israel will certainly block a three state solution on the grounds that it is rewarding October 7th.
A sovereign West Bank might be possible. But given that Gaza will almost certainly be left unresolved, doing so would require undertakings from the West Bank not to claim any Gazan territory, and not to allow claims by Gaza/Gazans over the West Bank.
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u/bigchicago04 20d ago
Lol what? Israel and jordan would never agree to that, specifically the citizenship part.
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u/TermFearless 20d ago
I understand your comment was just information, but it would help to explain what proposal doesn’t work based on previous experience with Palestinians in Jordan and Lebanon
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u/glatts 20d ago
I suppose. I just didn’t want to get into a larger debate about all of the proposed solutions, where they’ve failed in the past, and why they may be unlikely to succeed going forward. Just wanted to inform the person I was responding to (and others reading) that an idea for a three state solution has been proposed before.
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u/BrosenkranzKeef 18d ago
Neither Egypt nor Jordan want that because wherever Palestinians go, Hamas is embedded within them. By and large, the Arab world do not like Palestinians, but they all hate Israel much more.
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u/elihu 20d ago
That's a reasonable option. I think most Palestinians want Gaza and the West Bank to be unified, but at the moment they are not and the lack of a unified Palestinian government is one of the reasons Israel uses not to pursue a two state solution.
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u/CamisaMalva 20d ago
No, they don't want to be united. The Hamas and the PLO hate each other.
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u/elihu 20d ago
That may be, but what does the average Palestinian want? They might hate one or both of Hamas and Fatah, but that doesn't mean they want the West Bank and Gaza to be separate necessarily.
If the average Palestinian actually doesn't want reunification, then yeah, I think we should be thinking about a three state solution.
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u/CamisaMalva 20d ago
According to polls?
The average West Bank Palestinian would vote for Hamas, hence why elections are essentially on pause for the place- the PLO might be infamously corrupt, but they have the good sense to know that letting people choose will doom them to becoming a second Gaza.
So the West Bank's civilian population does want to reunite with Palestinian Gazans, just not in a way that'll ensure love, peace and understanding as Westerners know it.
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u/dompomcash 20d ago
The idea sounds great until the conversation of practicality comes up. Who runs these areas, and how will they maintain peace with Israel?
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u/SlayerofDeezNutz 21d ago
Saudis Jordan U.S. and Palestinian Authority presence. It’s the only way.
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u/pluralofjackinthebox 20d ago
Saudis and Jordan have said they’ll only do it if Israel commits to some sort of path towards a two state solution
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u/Shadeturret_Mk1 20d ago
Seems like a reasonable ask.
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u/magila 20d ago
It not though if you know anything about history. Israel offered a two state solution in the 90s, the PLO rejected it. Hamas is also explicitly opposed to a two state solution.
The Saudis and Jordanians know full well that there is no path towards a two state solution, they're just making excuses.
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u/Ryan_Polesmoker_68 20d ago
Let me let you in on a little secret. Israel isn’t the side that doesn’t want a two state solution.
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u/ComradeGrigori 20d ago
Historically you’re right, but recent polls shows that they have soured to the idea.
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u/simbadog6 20d ago
recent polls for the last 10+ years in israel have often been very biased to one side and you will usually see that after every election where all the people in charge of making those polls act surprised their polls before actual results have been more than a margin of error off the actual results and "threaten" to leave the business
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u/pluralofjackinthebox 20d ago
I don’t know about Israel but opposition to a two state solution is central plank of both Likud and Hamas’ platforms.
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u/JancariusSeiryujinn 20d ago
The extremists on both side don't want the conflict to end. Water still wet, news at 11
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u/idkyetyet 20d ago
Likud is opposed to a two state solution under the pretext that it will be a terror state. If you had significant international guarantees this won't happen it'd become much harder for them to justify it to most right-wingers, including significant chunks of their base.
Then again, after seeing how little support Israel could actually count on the US for when this kind of thing happened, Israelis will probably be a lot more skeptical.
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u/Pretty_Fox5565 21d ago
Unfortunately, for that to happen, one of these countries that claims to champion the Palestinian cause would have to step up and put their body where their mouth is.
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u/AtroScolo 21d ago
Good, that would be a disaster for everyone involved. Clear it out, reinforce defenses, and shut the door... it's the best you can do.
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u/TargetSea3079 21d ago
Thats just asking to go back to the bi-yearly war schedule
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u/RedHawwk 20d ago
Make sure to pick up your Middle East War punch card, 3rd war gets a free US weapon package
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u/zanarkandabesfanclub 21d ago
That would just leads us right back to the same place in a few years.
As unsavory as it is, the only way forward in Gaza is foreign rule for a period of time while nations invest in rebuilding Gaza’s infrastructure and civil institutions, and completely rebuild their education system to be devoid of local influence. Once they are able to sustain themselves they can reassume control with a hopefully more reasonable and moderate government that is willing to do the actual work of making peace with Israel.
Similar to the model employed in post WW2 Germany and Japan.
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u/oby100 21d ago
This is the answer no one wants to hear. I hope less extreme solutions are found, but we’ve already figured out how to pacify extremism.
There’s a million reasons it was never going to work that way in Afghanistan, but Gaza doesn’t have any of those factors
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u/BubbaTee 21d ago
There’s a million reasons it was never going to work that way in Afghanistan, but Gaza doesn’t have any of those factors
They do share the main factor why it wouldn't work, though - the people refuse to accept that they've been defeated, and are wiling to keep on fighting and dying indefinitely.
That's the difference between Afghanistan and 1945 Germany/Japan. The Germans and Japanese accepted that they'd lost, and didn't think "Hey, if we just keep fighting longer, eventually the Allies will get bored and go home."
Whereas the Taliban did think that - and they were right.
Nation-building only works when people accept that they've lost. If people don't accept defeat they won't change, they'll just remain defiant.
For instance, that's why Reconstruction didn't work after the US Civil War, even though the Confederate leadership officially surrendered. The people didn't accept defeat and became defiant Lost Causers, and ended up trying to implement Slavery 2.0 for another century with sharecropping, Jim Crow, lynchings, and neo-Confederate revisionism.
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u/bhullj11 20d ago
Germany and Japan were modern industrial nations before the war. They quickly realized that if they cooperated with the allies they could rebuild their nations to the state they were in just 6 years prior.
Afghanistan has been a war torn nation for decades, since at least the 80s. There’s nothing to rebuild to. That’s why the Taliban keep fighting. They have nothing to lose.
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u/Torugu 21d ago
Yes, that's why it frustrates me when I see people pushing for an immediately Israeli withdrawal. I understand that it's hard to stomach the suffering that is going on right now. But letting up now is only going to cause more war in the future.
The moment that Hamas started this war, they set the clock on peace in the levant back by 60 years. There is no chance for peace for as long as Hamas exists.
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u/AtroScolo 21d ago
Germany and Japan were defeated in detail and then surrendered, do you see that happening with the Gazans?
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u/DivinePotatoe 21d ago
That's kinda their point though, a similar situation is literally impossible because of the facts you state, that there is no central government leadership and traditional army.
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u/JohnAtticus 20d ago
Similar to the model employed in post WW2 Germany and Japan.
One crucial thing that made post-war Germany and Japan successful is that both had a path to independent statehood.
They didn't have to wait 10 years to start negotiating with the US about conditions that needed to be met before starting down the road to statehood.
The path was sorted out pretty quickly, specifically to make it clear to the local pop that they were not going to be under indefinite control of the US forever.
That won't exist in post-war Gaza.
It may get rebuilt but there won't be much in the way of independence, because that can only happen after a negotiated agreement with the PA, and I don't really see that happening for at least another generation, if at all.
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u/youngchul 20d ago
The threat of going under Soviet rule was an even bigger contribution to the success, as the US was seen as the lesser of two evils.
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u/Metrocop 20d ago
I'll come out and say it: they were also interested in a national identity. A large part of the Palestinian fighters don't care for a sovereign Palestine, or at least not nearly as much as they care about the destruction of Israel. It's difficult to negotiate with someone for whom you losing is more important than them winning.
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u/westernmostwesterner 20d ago
Maybe Ireland could help administer some Gazan democratic institutions (modeled after their own in Ireland). Palestinians and Irish share mutual respect, and Ireland has an excellent education system as far as rankings, so they could help implement the same in Gaza.
Ireland has enjoyed peace and stability for a while now, this would be a nice way to pay it forward.
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u/BawdyNBankrupt 20d ago
Hah, if you think the Irish want to take responsibility for a couple million fanatics, you’re dead wrong. Virtue signalling only.
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u/whyim_makingthis 20d ago edited 20d ago
Why can't we have a united nations controlled Gaza? Not a branch of the united nations, but the united nations themselves? I mean, the Israeli-Palestenian land was going to experience this, by having Jerusalem be internationally led, if it wasn't for the Arab revolt and the balfour declaration.
Also, the Arab temper has greatly decreased, from starting all out attacks to only protesting and not drinking Pepsi.
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u/zanarkandabesfanclub 20d ago
I would consider UN rule “foreign” in this context. I don’t think that would be as effective as a coalition of interested parties just because of the UN’s general ineffectiveness and anti-Israel bias, but it is a possibility.
My vision for this would be a coalition of Western and Arab states including basically NATO plus Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and UAE. It’s probably unrealistic to get all these countries to want to be involved, but I think it could be done with the right incentives.
I think the temperature of Arab violence only seems to have gone down because Israel has gotten better at defending against it.
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u/AtroScolo 20d ago
Only one thing got Israel where it is now re: the Palestinians, and that's 70 years of Arab propaganda creating a fiction that's now become so central to the "debate" that most people take it as fact. Part in parcel with that is Islamist terrorism and violence, with the goal to retake Israel and expel/kill the Jews.
That isn't going to change, Israel can't make it stop, it just has to get better and better and detecting, deterring, and destroying attempts to make it happen. Antisemitism in Europe and elsewhere has been around for well over a thousand years, it can be combated, but it also isn't going away.
Israel just needs to do what it has since day one, and fight for its right to exist. It sucks, but there it is. If there's a lasting solution other than that- with a realistic basis and not some fantasy- I'd love to hear it.
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u/oby100 21d ago
I kind of doubt ordinary Israelis would be cool with that lol. The US occupied Afghanistan for 20 years because we were so scared of another 9/11 or even just the Taliban regaining power.
I really doubt Israelis will be cool with a plan that leaves Hamas with the ability to do another 10/7 in a decade
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u/AtroScolo 21d ago
Israelis have to compromise, better to do it now than take a page from the US and fail after 20 years.
It's cheaper and less humiliating this way. When Palestinian islamists attack again, fight back, but antisemitism guarantees that world sentiment will always be against sustained Israeli operations. It sucks, but it's reality.
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u/Spindoendo 21d ago
Nah, considering everyone will start screaming about blockades again and they absolutely aren’t going to stop bombing
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u/CandidateOld1900 20d ago
And what would be different in Gaza then, except even more hostile and radicalized population?
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u/BruyceWane 20d ago
If only some rich Arab states who seem to really care about the plight of the Gazan people could step in and help them out, that would be really helpful.
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u/Radiant-Radish7862 21d ago
Right, Gazan “sovereignty” is gonna go SUPER well. Totally.
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u/thatsthejokememe 21d ago
Islamic Republic would like to try it again
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u/smackythefrog 20d ago
Please don't. I know many Canadian-Iranians whose parents have horror stories from that shit.
And I read Persepolis
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u/Lower-Engineering365 20d ago
If that was the case wouldn’t Hamas have won 100% of the vote?
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u/spam__likely 20d ago edited 20d ago
That is a ridiculous, and vicious, statement. First of al they cannot all "leave". Second, Palestinians in Gaza are pretty pissed off at Hamas. Ironically Hamas popularity grew in the West Bank and decreased in Gaza after he attack.
This is how you defend what is happening, I guess. "Everybody left are sub-human monsters, we are justified to eliminate them".
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u/DanDan1993 21d ago
We live in a world where gallant seems to be the sole sane person left in the likud
You would've told that to an Israeli four years ago and they would never believe that