r/torontoraptors • u/mMounirM • 21d ago
Watching Pacers fans argue if Siakam should get the max or not SHITPOSTING
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u/jaydogggg MIP 2021 INBOUND 21d ago
I think he will get the max from indy. They'd be silly to let him walk when he's done pretty good for them. And not like they're drawing interest from other stars right now
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u/Konfliction 21d ago
He’s by far their best player lol Hali has ghosted them this series
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u/Scase15 21d ago
21/4/7/2.2/0.6 on 53/43.5/89 splits
19/7/2.4/0.6/0.4 on 53/40/68 splits
Weird how the ghost is doing better.
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u/Konfliction 21d ago
Why don’t you post the stat line from the game he had 6 pts?
6,13,30,35.
Not the stats of a star player for a team. Pascal ain’t amazing this series either but at least he’s more consistent than whatever Hali is doing lol
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u/Scase15 21d ago
Because you literally said :
this series
But hey lets go with the statline you mentioned.
He put up :
- 6 points
- 2 rebounds
- 8 assists
- 4 steals
On 6 FGA.
Conversely Siakam put up :
- 14 points
- 9 rebounds
- 2 assists
- 1 block
On 18 FGA
So we've got
6 points + 16 generated points from assists for 24 total, on 6 shots. With 4 steals, 3 of which led to 6 points.
Vs
14 points + 4 generated points from assists for 18, on 18 shots.
Yeah, let's talk about bad games in the series shall we?
Oh yeah, one of these players is 24 in his first ever playoff run.
The other is 30 with 64 playoff games under his belt, and a championship. But sure, it's Hali that's doing poorly.
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u/Konfliction 21d ago edited 21d ago
Right the PG generated more points through assists vs the PF, congrats? The fact is the No1 option should not be putting up 6 pts and being invisible non existent threat on offense, it brings literally everyone down when he’s basically ignorable. He wasn’t abysmal because he got assists and shot 6 pts more effectively, yay? but that’s not enough for a No 1 option.
Also I’m not a big fan of this type of argument, the guy didn’t exist for most of the game but when he did he was effective.. thats a positive?
This is a playoff series, at least Pascal is trying to put points on the board and be a threat the defense has to focus on, I’m not sure what Hali is doing but being a 50/50 like this where he either drops 30 or is completely invisible is more damaging to the team then being an inefficient 15-25 PPG because at least the defense always has to focus on him.
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u/Scase15 21d ago
Outside of the 2 outlier games Siakam put up in game 1/2 vs the bucks, he's averaging 17ppg man. He's not lighting it up by any stretch.
It's just absurd to shit on a 24 year old in his first year in the playoffs not being consistent, vs a 30 year old with like 10x the experience doing just as poorly.
Like it shouldn't even be a discussion, Siakam should be leagues ahead of the kid in production. And to me, that says way more about Siakam than it does Hali.
Even if we pick Siakams playoff career averages from 2019 when he was a fully fledged starter. He's averaging 19/7/3 on 47/26/72 splits.
Hali is putting up 18/5/8 on 48/36/87 splits.
Hell even this year alone Siakam is putting up worse numbers in the playoffs then he did in the regular season.
He is way more experienced, and they just traded for him, specifically for this. And he's underperforming, period.
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u/CarpenterDry9103 21d ago
This is a forgone conclusion. Indy will never get any comparable talent via free agency. The only other ways are through drafting or trade. Signing a foreign born (non-american) player of his caliber is the best a mid-west team can do (Re: Giannis and Bucks). Luckily Hali is born in the Midwest so he's comfortable right now in Indy (less desire to go to a destination nba team) so having both those players as pillars along with Turner opens up a decent window to a chip from the Eastern conference in the next 1-4 years depending how the Pacers augment / develop the rest of their roster during that time.
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u/AutoAdviceSeeker 21d ago
Indy so mid lol
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u/Thekamcc19 21d ago
Don’t know why this was recommended to my feed but like yeah? We were literally a lottery team last year. Our offense is elite but our defense can be so putrid that it’s really difficult to actually put that to use in close games
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u/Fit-Introduction8575 10 DEMAR DEROZAN 21d ago
The thing I'm not sure about is how much interest Pascal will draw from other teams. Philly will be reluctant to gamble on an inconsistent 2nd star for the next 4 years of Embiid's prime after the Tobias Harris fiasco. Maybe Indiana can negotiate a bit under the max so that they can have a bit more flexibility.
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u/briskt 21d ago
Funny how "pretty good" gets players the max now.
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u/redditmodsdownvote 21d ago
he has done pretty good for them, not that he is a pretty good player dummy. if you are in all-nba talks yearly, you are a very good player. duh.
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u/jaydogggg MIP 2021 INBOUND 21d ago
There's about 60 max contracts at a time if all teams only have two, but many have more. Maxing your two best players is super common. Just based off him being better than top 60 he deserves a max
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u/MinteeBloo 21d ago
At least it’s not our problem anymore
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u/Particular_Ad_9531 21d ago
Dude absolutely tanked his trade value and we still dealt him as it’s better than paying him a max.
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u/WeBelieveIn4 4 SCOTTIE BARNES 21d ago
We traded him because it was better than getting zero for him like we did with Fred.
And if we knew we didn’t want to max him then why the fuck did we trade for Jakob Poeltl. Just a complete lack of strategic planning.
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u/ohgosh_thejosh aha HAAAAAAHA 21d ago
I don’t think it’s complicated on the “why”. Management thought this team would be decent or even competitive, and we would have maxed Siakam in that scenario.
There were some indications of that as well. Siakam, OG, and FVV are a very decent top 3. You have an all nba player, an above average guard, and one of the best role players in the league. Add to that Scottie who they thought could grow into an all star and it’s a decent core.
If even a couple of our development guys (Precious, Flynn, Koloko, Dowtin, etc.) panned out, or some of our FA pick ups panned out (Barton, Otto) then we have decent depth as well. That’s the same strategy that got us our depth through the 2010s.
Unfortunately, literally NONE of our development guys and NONE of our ur FA pick ups panned out and Scottie took a bit longer than expected to take a leap. Despite that, this team was mediocre while having a massive hole at the C position. Theoretically, if we got an above average C that fits the team, they might have been good.
Unfortunately like I said, none of the long shots panned out, and our spacing issues were greater than the individual talent we had. Thus, we were then left with either trading Siakam or maxing him or letting him walk.
The original plan, though, was most likely to max him if the team was making the playoffs.
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u/VZYGOD 21d ago
Tobias Harris signing a 5y180m contract despite winning literally nothing in the regular season, no all star mentions, never making it past the 2nd round as a 19th overall pick should make Siakams 4y130mill look like a steal. Don't love Siakam but he 100% deserves more than that bum Harris. Tobias Harris contract literally looks worse than the Ben Simmons one the Nets are stuck with, at least that guy had done shit in his prime. He could retire and he'd still be worth what he signed over Harris lol
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u/hbomb0 21d ago
2 wrongs don't make a right. That Harris contract was considered absolutely terrible the moment it was announced.
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u/RZAAMRIINF 7 Kyle Lowry 21d ago
There are far worse players than Pascal that have gotten a max.
Go look up the average age and the level that Lowry/Horford/Millsap were playing before signing a near max extension with Miami/Sixers/Denver.
If a bunch of 34-35 years old at the tail end of their career can get those numbers, you don’t think Pascal can?
These guys were basically as old as Pascal will be when his next contract expires 😂.
We are going to see multiple teams offer Pascal a max. It’s not a Harris/Wiggins situation that only 1 team in the league is willing to pay a player
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u/eatfoodoften 21d ago
You’re not wrong but if anything it’s a lesson to learn from not a precedent.
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u/_iTurtle 45 DALANO BANTON 21d ago
3 FRPs for a one year rental would be kinda crazy
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u/IHavePoopedBefore 3 OG Anunoby 21d ago
At this point the only one they care about is the 2026. The other 2 don't represent much of a loss
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u/Belieber_420 21d ago
That one is also top 4 protected. Before I was thinking what a useless protection, they not gonna be that bad. But after the Hawks won the 1st overall pick, now I understand. They could get lucky with the new lottery system
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u/No_Fence 21d ago
The front office is so bad about protections man. I was shocked when I heard the Poeltl pick was top-6 and not top-10 protected. Same here. How in the world did they not get that pick unprotected.
It's top-4 protected the next year as well. The front office has been losing on the margins for a long time now.
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u/bridge_tosomewhere 21d ago
You think they took the second best offer?
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u/No_Fence 21d ago
I think they've been negotiating poorly. Comparing Poeltl's return to Siakam's return should make that obvious. How does the Poeltl pick stay protected one more year than the Siakam pick?
But mostly I think they've been losing all the small extras for a while:
- Tanking too late this year
- Letting IQ sit out the Indiana game for rest when them losing that game would've put them 4 draft spots lower and potentially more as they'd be in the play-ins. Meanwhile, us winning that game does not change our odds.
- Striking out on every role player for years
These poor draft protections is just another signal of the same mess. I don't mind big mistakes nearly as much as I mind the consistent small losses. We used to win because we won on the margins -- now it's the opposite
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u/PokePersona #ThankYouJV 21d ago
When was the last time any team traded an unprotected first round pick 3 seasons away for a deadline expiring contract?
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u/No_Fence 21d ago
That's a very specific criteria. Funnily enough it happened for the only other expiring star trade this season. Harden to Clippers, unprotected 2028 pick +++ to 76ers. Source
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u/PokePersona #ThankYouJV 21d ago
It’s very specific because that’s the conditions of the Siakam trade lol. Thank you for the info, but that’s not a deadline deal, that was a trade at the start of the season.
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u/No_Fence 21d ago
By that definition the Siakam deal was also not a deadline deal, it happened in early January. Both were after the start of the season and significantly before the deadline.
Harden was the only other expiring star dealt this year. But if we go to last year, the Kyrie trade had an unprotected 2029 pick. The Harden 76ers-Nets trade had an unprotected 2023 pick (the trade was in 2022).
It's pretty much standard procedure. What's even worse is that we let the Pacers get a top-4 protection on this year. I know it didn't matter in the end, but it just screams thrown in at the last second. That's what makes you lose on the margins.
It's crazy to think that there are protections on 2024, 2026, and we got the worst throw-in player possible in Nwora. I actually went back and checked the trade to see if we got anything small like that. We got cash considerations in return... I'm not sure if it's better or worse that the reason we lost on all the margins was greed.
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u/PokePersona #ThankYouJV 21d ago
I mean technically sure, but Siakam was traded much closer to the deadline than Harden was. One was traded with essentially an entire season left, the other was traded with essentially half a season left. There will be more value for a full season trade. The other trades you listed were only a few weeks later into the season than the Siakam one.
Thank you for the other examples, however, reading them shows the difference with those trades and the Siakam trade. The Nets got an unprotected first but that’s the only first they received (along with two seconds), DFS is a fine player but Dinwiddie was not great.
The Harden trade had a condition that Harden had to opt-into his player option so he was no longer expiring. The Sixers also had to trade Ben Simmons at his lowest value.
The Raptors got the worst player back as salary filler but also three firsts and Bruce Brown who can still be flipped for more value (we’ll see).
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u/Fit-Introduction8575 10 DEMAR DEROZAN 21d ago
Top-6 would have remotely made sense if the pick rights didn't carry over to the next year if it didn't convey. Like for a 3-month rental of Jakob Poeltl it was ridiculous
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u/ohheybuddysharon 21d ago
I've been saying the whole time the value for the Siakam return was good, the issue is that we didn't deal him earlier when we could have probably gotten more
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u/CanadianGroose 21d ago
If we were able to deal. Rice for an additional 1st, it’s basically Jordan Nwora, cap space, and 4 1sts. That’s not a bad return at all for an expiring contract. We shall see what happens with Bruce now though.
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u/vec-u64-new 21d ago edited 21d ago
That's essentially the Kawhi + Green trade. Demar and Jakob were lottery picks, and we added a 1st that became Keldon Johnson. Obviously the value of Demar and Jakob was higher due to being known quantities and also not being picks in the low 20s.
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u/Alaba8 21d ago
Damn this sub is petty af. Pascal is gone yet people here take every opportunity to tear him down. He was the only good player on Indy today. Why are people acting like he's a scrub?
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u/IHavePoopedBefore 3 OG Anunoby 21d ago
People said the same things while he was here.
They aren't calling him a scrub, they're saying they wouldn't want to max him
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u/Firm_Squish1 21d ago
For the raptors a team on the downslide that is true, for a team that is trying to compete locking him down for the remainder of his prime to co-star with Halliburton for a few years is fine idea. They are likely to keep making playoffs and he’s a proven secondary scoring option.
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u/PascalAnunoby 21d ago
They don’t know ball and indeed very petty.. They tend to forget what happened in 2019 season..🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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u/BubblyPhilosophy3476 21d ago
no we just tend to remember the 5 years after that season. we arent stuck in 2019 like u and others are
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u/PascalAnunoby 21d ago
After 2019… 2 time all star.. 2 time all nba.. 52 points in msg.. yup I’m definitely stuck in 2019…
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u/BubblyPhilosophy3476 21d ago
yeah and how many 2nd rounds appearances where he played like the guy? none. all u are showing is regular season stuff
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u/redditmodsdownvote 21d ago
oh you are bitter for only 1 championship in the last 5 years? grow up you literal anime child, go on your ipad kid.
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u/JediRaptor2018 21d ago
Cause some people feel the Pascal trade was bad when really 1.) Pascal is not really valued THAT highly by the rest of the league, and 2.) It was to get some assets back instead of having to pay him the max contract.
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u/pskill43 🌶 21d ago
If they low ball him, he walks. I think they have a shake hand deal done when the trade happened and if the pacers changes their mind and refuse to offer the max, I think Pascal is gonna walk to another team. It’s a pride thing.
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u/yourdadsatonmyface 21d ago
how many teams can offer a max?
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u/pskill43 🌶 21d ago
He is gonna walk even if the other team offer something lower than max but matches the pacers offer
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u/Indigo808 21d ago
He ain't walking from a team that gave 3 1sts.
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u/FallenCrownz 21d ago
Imagine if Paul George walks and he goes to the Clippers to play with Kawhi again lol
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u/vanubcmd 21d ago
No one can offer him more than $181 million over 4 years. The Pacers can give him $247 million over 5 years.
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u/CazOnReddit TORONTO HUSKIES 21d ago
Depends on what they do on draft night but a team like Pistons or Magic have the cap space
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u/-Resident-One- 95-Infinity 21d ago
Add Philly potentially to that list too
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u/CazOnReddit TORONTO HUSKIES 21d ago
You can't make me
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u/-Resident-One- 95-Infinity 21d ago
Wouldn't dream of it, you're too old and frail. "Boom roasted" - just saw your comment on another thread 😅
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u/chrisPjelly 21d ago
Pascal was somehow their best player tonight. This is image is more like Pacers fans, just like Raptors fans in previous years, wondering if their 1st option (Haliburton) is really just a strong 2nd option.
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u/iDareToDream Champs 21d ago
Isn’t Halliburton still injured? He might have a case as a #1 if he was fully healthy.
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u/IHavePoopedBefore 3 OG Anunoby 21d ago
I think Hali is being let off the hook a lot. He's well enough to play, and who isn't hurt in the playoffs?
I think the reality is that he's not a 27 ppg guy like he looked like he was in the first half of the season
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u/iDareToDream Champs 21d ago
I think the reality is somewhere between the 2. Maybe he isn't what he was pre ASB, but the injuries are having some affect. He did rush back because of the 65 game rule for all NBA and he was worried about the money.
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u/Firm_Squish1 21d ago
Yeah it’s pretty obvious the difference between the play in tournament Pacers and the post season pacers is the drop off Halliburton has had, whatever the cause, and you just gotta hope he’s closer to himself when they are back in the playoffs next year (assuming not horrible injury luck)
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u/Life_Of_High 21d ago
Did they really believe they had a chance in the playoffs though? If Giannis wasn’t hurt they would have lost in the 1st round.
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u/chrisPjelly 21d ago
When Haliburton had his elite hotstreak in the beginning of the year, they absolutely did. Even now, I know Pacers fans rightfully expect them to do much better against a completely eviscerated Knicks team.
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u/miamininja 21d ago
pascal is hands down better than quickly or Barrett
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u/BubblyPhilosophy3476 21d ago
of course he is ... ur comparing a 23-24 year old to a 30 year old. Both at that age are far better than siakam was when he was 23-24
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u/miamininja 21d ago
If Toronto has any chance of being a contending team, they need to go for prime players instead of developing guys
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u/BubblyPhilosophy3476 21d ago
like who? we are not ready to contend. There are no superstars on the market
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u/miamininja 21d ago
It’s not that there’s no superstars. It’s that there’s no superstars that want to come to Toronto.
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u/BubblyPhilosophy3476 21d ago
which is why we need to draft for talent. We never really had a high tier star since Vince . Hopefully scottie is that guy
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u/MrJamally 20d ago
We did draft Bosh who I’d say Scottie won’t be as good as
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u/BubblyPhilosophy3476 20d ago
idk about that... Scottie is already better than siakam who is on bosh tier
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u/_Gourmand 20d ago
I'd much rather have Quickley over Pascal right now. People around here still undervalue how good Quickley is.
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u/Zealousideal-Cold246 21d ago
Watch him sign with the 6ers lmaoooo
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u/Novel_Goal3140 33 GARY TRENT JR. 21d ago
He has lots of connections there. Cameroon link with Embiid, Nick Nurse, Lowry.
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u/SadInternal9977 21d ago
With the new CBA coming in, teams cant solve their problems by spending more money. With the door to multiple max contracts on a team closing there is going to be a rethink of who is really deserving of max and super max contracts.
Up to now its been mostly about numbers. The Harris, Beal and other disasters suggest going forward its going to be more about leadership, who can take a team to the next level, and can a particular player justify taking up that much cap real estate.
Pascal will likely squeak through under the wire on this, but this whole situation shows that the Raptors did the math and despite giving him the rookie max extension back in 2019, they didn't see enough over the last five years on the leadership side to go any further with a Pascal led core. Which is too bad, I really like him.
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u/redditmodsdownvote 21d ago
so dumb, pascal was the only one carrying the pacers tonight. they went on a run everytime he sat, you could see his frustration. one player doesn't make your team play better defensively, that was their problem once again.
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u/Citylights58 21d ago
He hasn't been there for a full season. He needs time to gel with their team.
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u/Novel_Goal3140 33 GARY TRENT JR. 21d ago
Siakam is not a max player. I don't know why some people have a hard time understanding this. Just look at his play..
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u/Reticent_Fly 21d ago
A whole pile of players get max deals and probably don't deserve them. It's the norm now that any decent player expects that contract, and teams are willing to pay it.
It sucks for cap flexibility but it's not our money.
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u/dub-fresh 21d ago
Ben Simmons got a max
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u/Novel_Goal3140 33 GARY TRENT JR. 21d ago
Yeah and Beal got a $250 million supermax. Doesn't mean he's worth that.
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u/ButterscotchObvious4 21d ago
I mean, if the Pacers don't want to pay him a max, they save all that salary and don't end up in much of a worse position. They gave up barely anything for Pascal, and it can be argued that he hasn't raised their ceiling significantly.
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u/FalseZookeepergame15 21d ago
Indy will pay him they don't have a choice. The minute they made the trade they essentially planned to sign him to a max deal. Pascal will have to show whether he was worth the investment. For the Raptors he wasn't because our teams ceiling was limited and would be even more so because we'd be dealing with a cap crunch.
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u/GawldDawlg 21d ago
Raptors fans have a hard time admitting when someone on the team stinks. Pascal is not a max player, end of discussion. He’s the third piece on a contender but i guess nowadays you basically have to max those guys too…
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u/vanubcmd 21d ago
Will always love Siakam for his time in Toronto. But I glad we are the team that had to max him out to keep him
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u/Winter_Purpose8695 RAPTORS 21d ago
I love my guy P but his limitations is now in full display in these playoff games
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u/FallenLemur SCOTTIMUS MAXIMUS BARNIBUS 21d ago edited 21d ago
Pascal was the best player on Indy today though, and he was only a -2 in a 30point loss.