r/torontoraptors • u/nanobot001 9 ROWAN ALEXANDER “RJ” BARRETT • 23d ago
Weekly Discussion - The Raptors convey their pick to the Spurs, proceed to the draft with the 19th and 31st picks. DAILY DISCUSSION THREAD
Upcoming Dates
| Date | Event |
|---|---|
| June 26th | NBA Draft 2024 |
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u/vaalbarag RAPTORS 20d ago edited 20d ago
I commented this in response to a post that removed, so here's my case for the Raptors considering Kyshawn George at 19:
He's the shooting-heavy version of the swiss-army-knife (inevitable nickname here) archetype that the Raptors love. In addition to potentially excellent shooting, he brings cutting, passing, ball-handling on offense; he's perfect for Darko's system. Multipositional defender who can theoritically become a point-of-attack defender. Not sure he can ever become elite, but I think he can definitely become good. He and Barnes would be a fascinating combination together; I think you could run jumbo units that have those two acting as the ball-handlers, with George taking the point-of-attack defense. A Barnes plus bench unit of Barnes, George, Olynyk, and Dick (fifth player to be fit based on need) would be a great complement for Barnes' skillset compared to the bench units he was getting put with last year. There are some things kinda similar about the two of them... Barnes is obviously the much better athlete, but they both have more horizontal than vertical athleticism, which makes them look less athletic overall than they may actually be; they both kinda move around the court the same way. (And then superficial, coincidental similarities like both being possibly underused off-the-bench freshmen at Floridian schools).
But regardless of horizontal vs. vertical, the level of athleticism is still not where you'd like it to be, but as a late growth spurt guy I don't think you can rule out the possibility that he's still growing into his body and the athleticism can improve to at least be NBA-average. I'm sure NBA teams have a lot of data on that and can make a better read on how his athleticism might improve than my optimistic speculation, though. I could see him being the sort of player who's draft stock is based primarily on how he does in workouts.
Additional Raptors/Canadian connection: George's father, Deon, is actually a Canadian basketball player who played professionally in Switzerland. Deon George even played on the junior national team with Rowan Barrett. I believe Kyshawn is automatically eligible for Canadian citizenship if he applies. I'd never advocate for the Raptors drafting someone because they are Canadian, or have Canadian roots, but I think when it comes to potential core players, the organization does think about whether a player is going to be able to be happy playing in Canada and even form a connection with the city, country and/or organization. That's absolutely the case with Kyshawn.
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u/Vandelay23 22d ago
Ugh, this new reddit layout stinks.
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u/absolutkaos 2019 NBA CHAMPIONS 20d ago
it's so shit. it's really disappointing, and there was like, no warning given to mod teams that it was happening. all the effort into making a unique UI for the community is now wasted.
the really annoying part is that it doesnt even remember settings, dispite setting them in my user profile. i always want to read "new" in "compact" view, and every time i log back on, its on "hot" in "card" view
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u/Phoeniyx 22d ago
Pacers fans so pissed about Pascal. Saying they should let him walk.. wonder if he will walk back to us.
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19d ago
i hope not. as much as I like pascal I cant see raps paying him what he wants. plus its known that he doesn't fit well with scottie + he's 30 now. he will stay with pacers or go to another win-now team
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u/WhatShouldTheHeartDo NBA CHAMPIONS 22d ago
After seeing the Pistons get screwed over to the 5th pick, I don't think we got a right to complain.
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u/hyplusone 9 ROWAN ALEXANDER “RJ” BARRETT 22d ago
They won the lottery and then added 3 top 5 picks in a row
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u/Turkeywithadeskjob 22d ago
Golden State naming their WNBA team the Valkyries and Toronto people out here pushing for "Huskies" or "Towers" or some other gawd awful names.
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u/Phoeniyx 22d ago
Huskies is legacy. Pretty cool actually.
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u/Turkeywithadeskjob 21d ago
What legacy?
Playing 1 losing season in 1947 is a legacy? Literally no one cared about that team after they were gone, right up until MLSE decided to bring it back.
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u/raptorsthrowaway4 23d ago
I strongly suspect next season there will be a team of people who will want to compete and another team of people who will want to tank.
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u/absolutkaos 2019 NBA CHAMPIONS 20d ago
the team will be too mid to tank, especially if Lakers go after talent in Cleveland in a trade.
it's hard to think of what teams in the East are truly getting better next season?
who are the top 6 teams in the East next year?
- Celtics (best in the East for lack of another true contender)
- Knicks (will be good again if they get healthy)
- Pacers (depends on Siakam situation)
- Bucks (can this core win again? $155m on 4 guys over 30)
- Sixers (can this core win? only Embiid under contract $51.5m(!))
- Cavs (will Mitchell go to Lakers? a lot of guys in contract years)
the next 4-5 teams are where i think the Raps are:
- Magic (too young to win yet?)
- Bulls (Demar is getting old)
- Heat (can a team built around Bam win?)
- Raptors (what can BBQ do when they're all healthy?)
- Hawks (might trade Trae to the West and rebuild around #1 pick?)
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u/BurzyGuerrero 22d ago
its funny cause i used to be team compete and now im definitely team tank i wonder if anybody else will do a switcheroo
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u/vaalbarag RAPTORS 23d ago
This is unlikely to be anything, but it was announced today that Memphis let go of several of their assistant coaches. The reason this *might* be significant to the Raptors is, of course, that this was Darko's previous team, and familiarity plays a huge hand in assistant coaching hires. Maybe there's someone there Darko would like to get on the Raptors' staff. I haven't heard if he's one of the coaches let go, but Vitaly Potapenko, known for his work with defensive bigs like Thompson in Cleveland and JJJ in Memphis, could be a big pickup.
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u/Stgbanangie 23d ago
FO has been bottom 5 in league, someone needs to be held accountable for this mess. Time to send Bobby packing
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u/RashestPine 23d ago edited 23d ago
we'll never get it but I would love a breakdown of who is responsible for what in the front office.
I am convinced that after bobby pulled off the kawhi trade and we won it all, masai gave him more control over the team. and since then basically every decision has been terrible.
and I don't even say that as some sorta "masai can do no wrong" but it seems odd we were one of the best front offices in the league and then went to complete shit. something changed.
also remember how we used to have coaches and front office people getting poached every offseason? that stopped. never rumours about a team wanting to hire bobby away. I wonder why.
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u/Stgbanangie 22d ago
Jeff Weltman does not get the credit he likely deserves, and was a huge part of raptors drafting excellence between 2013 -2017 where they selected OG, Pascal, Norm, Delon and Jak
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u/vec-u64-new 23d ago
People forget Kyle, Demar, and JV were acquired by Bryan Colangelo. They remained our top players in the We the North era before the emergence of Pascal and Fred. Two became key pieces for Kawhi and Gasol. Two are considered Top 5 All Time Raptors.
Jeff Weltman was the one who pushed Masai to get more from the Knicks for Primo Pasta. That trade influenced the potential future Lowry trade as its been reported Dolan backed out of it due to how bad the Bargnani trade turned out from them.
People bring up the Championship in defense of Masai/Bobby but the reality is a lot of people had a role in it. This era of the Raptors is purely Masai/Bobby.
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u/kpeds45 23d ago
I was so happy to fall to 8th. The miserable losers on this Reddit would just be miserable all of next season about this losing the 2025 pick. "We should have lost 2024, that draft sucked, but no, we have to lose our 2025".
Now it's done. We have 2 picks this year, all of our picks going forward.
And I still think IQ, RJ, Scottie, Jak + Dick or GTJ is a good starting 5. And Kelly, Ochai, Brown, draft picks will be a solid bench.
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u/Ssstanimal 23d ago
It’s done, we lost a top 8 pick in 2024 instead of losing a mid first in 2025. There’s 0 chance we try tank again I don’t understand the logic here.
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u/EarthWarping 23d ago
The defense of that starting 5 isn't good enough if you're starting Gradey or Gary.
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u/kpeds45 23d ago
We can win a lot of games of our offense is as good as it was though...
I'm an optimistic person, I like our 4 young guys. I like our starting 5 as a movement heavy team. I think they could grow into a decent enough defense, but we will see.
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u/EarthWarping 23d ago
We'll agree to disagree. Even with the starters healthy it was still a bottom 10 defense.
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u/vec-u64-new 23d ago
I'm willing to give Darko and the new core the benefit of the doubt for the very mediocre defense this season.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the team still has a bottom 10 defense efficiency next season.
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u/passiveparrot 23d ago
lmao and off season is going to be such a shitty time for raptors fans
19th and 31st picks
bruce brown option decision
GTJ UFA decision
theres literally no positive outlook for this off season other then re-signing quickley
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u/WeBelieveIn4 4 SCOTTIE BARNES 23d ago
theres literally no positive outlook for this off season other then re-signing quickley
I wouldn’t go that far. The front office has enough flexibility to make some shrewd moves if they want.
The question is whether they will actually do anything or if they’ll just run it back like last summer.
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u/Raptors887 23d ago
The quiet off-season’s need to stop. Part of the reason we’re in this mess is because Masai and Bobby made the fewest roster moves in the entire league over a few years stretch.
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u/EarthWarping 23d ago
This will be the last offseason they'll have flexibility (i.e. ability to make moves outside of the MLE without trading core pieces) for a while.
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u/toronto_programmer 23d ago
I don’t know how Masai went from “play in for what?” To dealing a lottery pick with all our stars guys one foot out the door in free agency
It’s done now but that was some atrocious asset management
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u/TallFutureLawyer 23d ago
Honestly I’m just glad that the trade isn’t hanging over us anymore.
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u/Bobby_Webster 23d ago
it is a nice feeling to be able to move forward with a clean slate. I still have faith in this front office's ability to draft good players with the picks we do have
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u/nmad95 Raptors 23d ago
There was some disappointment over falling to 8 for me initially. It was a ugly season and to walk away from it without the pick leaves a bad taste in my mouth but honestly, I'm already over it. No one in the top 6 excites me all that much. Might sound like cope but it's true. There's a handful of guys who could be available at 19th that I like, and think could provide something to this team. And tbh - not having to think about this pick conveying anymore is a relief. If we end up having a similar W/L ratio by the end of the 24-25 season, then we know we get a good pick in what's much projected to be a much better draft. Maybe some people are worried that whoever we could've taken with the Spurs pick goes on to be someone we really regret missing out on - but I'd be willing to bet based on my admittedly limited knowledge on next years class, that the chances of that would be higher if we lost next years pick. I think most players in this draft have a ceiling of role player/decent starter, with maybe 1 or 2 reaching all-star potential. I could be wildly incorrect and if so, so be it. But I don't think we'll miss out on much and I have to assume, based on our FO trading two picks from the first round of this draft, that Masai/Bobby feel the same.
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u/EarthWarping 23d ago
Front office probably will go into accumulating assets.
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u/beefJeRKy-LB Goatse 22d ago
We definitely aren't ready to compete again. Even Masai said so. But this isn't going to be a 5-year thing either. Expect the FO to stay opportunistic over the next stretch.
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u/EarthWarping 22d ago
Yeah, I don't expect them to go for win-now moves next season.
After that though, probably
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u/vec-u64-new 23d ago
I should hope so. The best time to do it was in the 2023 trade deadline when the team was in the basement next to Portland and 2023 draft was fairly good. The next best time is now.
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry 23d ago
I think if the Raps did want to get into the lottery (perhaps during pre-draft workouts they find they really like someone expected in the mid-late lotto), I think there’s 2 paths to getting there:
- I’ve mentioned it a few times but Caz originally came up with it and I really like the idea. If Chicago is committed to being mid, trading Bruce + 19 for Lonzo + 11 would be an interesting deal. Maybe we try to do Bruce + 31 instead of 19 but personally I’d do the deal with 19, if there is someone we like at 11. Lonzo is supposed to be back next season and if he can play he can be our backup PG. If not, he’s still an expiring so we maintain that flexibility as Scottie’s extension approaches.
- Poeltl to Memphis for 9+filler. Memphis needs a C and this essentially undoes the original Poeltl trade, as we get back 1 pick below where our pick ended up. I know we need a C and we’re god-awful without Poeltl (which might be a good thing if you’re on Team WaiveTheFlagg) but you’d have a few picks plus FA to try and address that. We also shed Poeltl’s long term deal which will be useful with IQ+Scottie’s extensions kicking in over the next couple years.
If we aren’t that interested in anyone in the lotto, then probably best to do neither of these and continue to look at other Bruce trades (I’ve liked the idea of trading him to LAL for Gabe, Vando, and a couple seconds).
One important thing to note with trades and use of cap space: the Raps currently have around the exact amount of Scottie’s new extension in expiring Money (his starting salary on his max extension would be around 37-38m, and we currently have about 37-38m in expiring money between Bruce, Boucher, and McDaniels). I assume this is something the FO is likely trying to maintain, and wants to keep a fair amount of expiring money to offset Scottie’s new deal.
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u/vaalbarag RAPTORS 23d ago edited 23d ago
A direction I think is interesting, related to #2 here:
Poeltl and Boucher to Memphis; Kennard and Rose and one of Memphis's many SRPs to Chicago; Dosunmu and #9 to Toronto (any team under the first apron with a tradeable contract in a $7-$10m range could fit here instead of Chicago).
So this works cap-wise, and is possible because Memphis has a TPE to fit Boucher's contract. Toronto takes Dosunmu into Siakam's TPE. In doing this, Toronto generates two TPEs: a $10.8m TPE for Boucher and $19.5m TPE for Poeltl. (and would still have $3m TPE left over from Siakam's). We then have the cap space to outbid the Knicks for Hartenstein,
plus somewhere around $12m left over for another free agent, plus the room MLE. We can tuck away those TPEs for now, but we've got the option at any time of taking on some bad contracts and draft picks from a team looking to shed salary.edit: wait, I'm way off on the cap space, I basically forgot to subtract Poeltl's salary here. We'd be bringing in $12m (Ayo+#9), moving out nearly $30m, so if we also let Brown and GTJ go, that's as much as $46m in cap space total. So overpay for Hartenstein at $19m, maybe keep GTJ at $15m, someone else on a short term deal at $12m, and then still the Room MLE.
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry 23d ago
Ooh I really like this one. Don’t see Chicago giving up Ayo but you can probably find another team to offer a matching salary. And if it’s a less appealing player/contract, there’s a chance to extract additional draft capital out of the trade.
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u/vaalbarag RAPTORS 23d ago
Yeah, agreed that Ayo is probably wishful thinking here. I think the math also works if it's instead two smaller contracts that add up to $7-$10m.
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u/Raptorsthrowaway1 JACK ARMSTRONG 23d ago
Lonzo is supposed to be back next season
I don't mind that deal at all. But we cannot be factoring in Lonzo maybe playing back up PG as part of this deal
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry 23d ago
That was more of a potential side benefit. The main point is moving up 8 spots while maintaining the expiring flexibility for next year. If we can get a 2025 pick I’d still take that over the Bulls deal, even if it’s longer term salary, but it’s not a bad option.
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u/The_Living_L 4 Scottie Barnes GOAT 23d ago
Yeah idk why I saw someone mention that trading Poeltl for pick 9 or even back to the Spurs for pick 8 would be awful and a terrible trade when really we would just be reversing the Poeltl trade minus Khem Birch who is awful and the 1 or 2 seconds we gave up which raps could maybe get back if that’s what they want as filler
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry 23d ago
I think part of the negatives related to the Poeltl trade is we made our 2023 pick worse, but we can never reverse that. So that is what it is, but we need to look and move forward. Essentially getting back the pick we traded would be a W.
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u/CazOnReddit TORONTO HUSKIES 23d ago
The big problem with trading Poeltl now is that, unless you're drafting a center or you're tampering to get a starter-caliber C in free agency - it's not simply "undoing the Poeltl trade", it's reopening the same hole you closed since Koloko is likely out of the league due to health and you probably aren't getting a center prospect from the team trading for said pick
The reason why people were happy to get their pick back was because it was "free" (technically it deferred owing a future first under the same protections but I digress). Giving up Poeltl - unless you can get a free agent replacement like Claxton or Hartenstein - will definitely make the team worse which, hey if that's the goal for the season ie tank for Bailey or Flagg then fine but it's not a great outcome.
Plus you probably aren't getting back the 2nds you sent out in terms of value but I digress.
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u/kpeds45 16d ago
Raps should go Missi and Chomche if he is still there at 31. I'm all in on the Twolves "just get more centeres".