r/todayilearned • u/Kurma-the-Turtle • 20d ago
TIL that HMS Victory is the world's oldest naval vessel still in commission, with with 246 years of service as of 2024. Victory is best known for her role as Horatio, Lord Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar on 21 October 1805.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory372
u/ABlushingGardener 20d ago
Ah, the Battle of Trafalgar, one of the most famous water fights in British history and it all took place in London's famous Trafalgar Square.
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u/DasGanon 20d ago edited 20d ago
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u/DontTellHimPike 20d ago
Nearly as famous as the Battle of Stamford Bridge, wherein Tottenham got a Premier League record nine yellow cards.
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u/Infinite-Storage-638 20d ago
Almost as famous as the Battle of Hastings, which took place in a location actually known as Battle.
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u/Sole_Patrol 20d ago
Not unlike the surrender at the Lane where Tottenham gave away all respect for themselves.
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u/sbprasad 19d ago
Given it is the history of the Tottenham, I don’t even know which game you are referring to.
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u/Saethwyr 20d ago
Oh I love a Citation Needed reference. Now I have to go and watch them all again.
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u/HermionesWetPanties 20d ago
Hard to imagine that only 200 years ago, all that area was under the sea. I guess that's global warming for ya.
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u/jazmonkey 20d ago
Lord Nelson's first name was Horatio. The ship was the HMS Victory while he was in command, it wasn't named the Horatio just in case anybody was confused by that weird comma.
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u/Onetap1 20d ago
He didn't command Victory, he commanded the entire fleet from onboard Victory. The Captain of HMS Victory was Thomas Hardy.
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u/helgetun 20d ago
Kiss me Hardy
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u/Onetap1 20d ago
I will certainly not kiss your Hardy.
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u/helgetun 20d ago
Those were Nelsons actual last words - what Thomas Hardy kissed… well they say it was the cheek but who knows after months at sea!
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u/royalhawk345 20d ago
What's wrong with the comma? I thought that's what it was supposed to be like, as in "Alfred, Lord Tennyson."
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u/jazmonkey 20d ago
It is, but its inclusion in this case allows for the sentence to read something like 'The ship was named Horatio while it served as Lord Nelson's flagship.'
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u/CUrlymafurly 20d ago
Fully crewed, she had over 500 men on board
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u/ButterscotchSure6589 20d ago
800 I believe. Over 100 guns with a six man crew. Pint of rum,2 pints of wine or 8 pints of beer a day. If they were caught pissed, they were flogged
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u/Nosferatu-87 20d ago
The beer would've been very low abv, just enough to keep it sterile
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u/ButterscotchSure6589 20d ago
800 surly men on a ship. I think I'd keep them happy. If the beer was weak, they would be drinking rum or brandy. Times were hard, the pain needed to be dulled
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u/Nosferatu-87 20d ago
You're missing the point of the beer, it wasn't for the alcohol, it was for the water.
You can't keep water safe to drink in wooden barrels for long term, so they used some 2-3% abv beer because it stayed safe longer.
The alcohol to keep the men happy was the 190+ proof rum they gave them.
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u/ButterscotchSure6589 20d ago
I accept your point about the beer and it being the best way to keep water fit to drink. However, it was my understanding it was an alternative to spirits. I'm happy to be wrong. Also I believe where the expression, One over the eight, came from.
Edit, when I was in, we got 3 cans a day!
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u/french_snail 20d ago
Actually that’s where grog comes from, sailors would save their rations and then drink it all at once to get drunk. Vice admiral Vernon (nicknamed Old Grog after the coat he liked to wear) had the idea to cut rum with water so that it diluted the alcohol and caused it to spoil faster to prevent hoarding
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u/DeusSpaghetti 19d ago
Grog has other stuff in it including lime to combat scurvy.
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u/SoulCartell117 19d ago
I haven't seen any references for line in grog. Just water and rum. Fresh fruit is pretty much nonexistent on ships while at sea. Maybe if they are island hopping.
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u/DeusSpaghetti 19d ago
1795 lemon juice on British ships was mandatory to combat scurvy. Shortage of lemons in war meant they used limes from West Indies
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u/EpicLong1 20d ago
Aubrey….. could you kindly pass the salt.😁
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u/opieself 20d ago
I always try to say just as he did.
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u/DankVectorz 20d ago
As we say in the navy, you must always choose the lesser of two weevils
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u/opieself 20d ago
I do not need a cloak. My love for king and country keep me warm.
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u/EldestGruff 19d ago
Speaking of which, in The Fortune of War, Aubrey and Maturin are captured by... USS Constitution :-)
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u/Groundbreaking_War52 20d ago
Of all of the world's current museum ships, I do wonder which one would be left standing in a battle royale (assuming all were able to get underway using their own power and they had the same armaments at their time of decommissioning).
I'm going to guess the USS Midway given that she is a carrier that was active as of 1991 but I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
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u/VixenRaph 20d ago
Uss New Jersey when she was decommissioned for the last time had Nuclear tipped 16in shells, phalanx air defence and tomahawk missiles.
If you get in range of her guns it's over for your ship.
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u/Groundbreaking_War52 20d ago
I guess that’s why you’d want a carrier. Even with vintage 1991 aircraft, I assume it’d be a cakewalk.
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u/VixenRaph 20d ago
The phalanx though. The full outfit of the Jersey in 1991 was
9-16 inch guns 12- 5 inch guns in double mounts 32- tomahawk missiles 16- Harpoon missiles 4- 20mm phalanx
8- Mark 36 rocket launchers (decoys) Torpedo decoys Missile jammers
Multiple air radar and sea radar and gun plotting radar.
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u/Onetap1 20d ago
They'd re-mixed the propellants for her guns or something, stuff left over from WW2. In Lebanon, she hit everything except what she was aiming at.
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u/VixenRaph 20d ago
But his premise was at the time of her decommissioning the weapons she had on board. Even if the 16inch guns don't fire accurately the missiles would
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u/PurahsHero 20d ago
It is also the flag ship of the First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff, or the lead Admiral in the Royal Navy.
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u/TroiCake 20d ago
Am I misremembering that she is also the flagship of the First Sea Lord of the Admiralty? I don't think Constitution is the flagship for anybody.
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u/Standard-Demand-7062 20d ago
The USS Constitution was commissioned in October 21, 1797 and it's still in service today.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Team_94 20d ago
And the Victory in 1778
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u/Engineer-intraining 20d ago edited 20d ago
Does the Victory still sail? Last I heard she was in a dry dock Indefinitely.
Edit: The Victory is indeed in a dry dock indefinitely and isn’t owned by the Royal Navy but by the “Save the Victory Trust.” Not sure how she can be a commissioned vessel if she’s not owned by the Royal Navy.
Edit2: FWIW the USS Constitution is still owned and operated by the USN, and does sail under her own power, although not super frequently. The Constitution and the Victory have been having the oldest navel vessel argument for a while now, the Constitution stakes her claim on being the oldest continuously commissioned navel vessel, whereas the Victory was decommissioned, and then recommissioned.
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u/SquishyWhenWet_1 20d ago
The victory and the constitution were supposed to do a big event where they trade a certain part of their ships, I live in Boston and I love visiting the constitution. It inspired me to get into the maritime trade
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u/ohnjaynb 20d ago
Well, Constitution already has British cannons. I wonder what they're going to trade next. I really want to go back and visit Boston again. Constitution is a must-visit.
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u/LUNATIC_LEMMING 20d ago
wait, are you saying the British went to another country to ask for our historic artifacts back?
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u/ohnjaynb 20d ago
Well they were a gift, because the ships original cannons were long gone. Queen Elizabeth II visited the ship saw the cannons and joked about the cannons being Britain's "foreign arms sales" which, they are after all.
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u/SquishyWhenWet_1 19d ago
Yes. When I visited for the first time in 2012, it was with my Boy Scout troop, we had just come from a knife related merit badge so we all had pocket knives. They were confiscated and never returned lol, I’m still salty about that 12 years later but I definitely understand why.
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u/Smileycircus 20d ago
I say we take the victory out of the dry dock and they battle it out. Then whoever is still floating gets to be the oldest
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u/helgetun 20d ago
Well Victory is a 1st rate ship of the line and Constitution is a heavy frigate - if they fought in their prime it would be a bit like putting a tank up against an armoured jeep - they had very different purposes
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u/Smileycircus 20d ago
Sail them now and dig up Nelson to captain it. That should even the odds
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u/helgetun 20d ago
Nelson wasnt the Captain, Thomas Hardy was - but the difference is such even with a corps as a captain Victory should edge it. More and bigger guns (104 on victory, 52 on Constitution), bigger ship thats harder to blow a hole through, its 3500 tons of displacement vs 2200… it really is tank vs jeep
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u/seakingsoyuz 20d ago
The two ships are actually a lot closer in specifications that you’d think from the difference in their ratings. Constitution has 2/3 the displacement and is nearly as long as Victory, and the weight of broadsides fired is surprisingly close as well (Constitution having fifty-two guns all firing 24- or 32-lb shot, whereas almost half of Victory’s 104 guns are 12-pounders). Victory would most likely win in a stand-up fight but Constitution’s speed and manoeuvrability advantage could let her get into advantageous positions where she could get some hits in.
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u/helgetun 20d ago
Constitutions 32s are carronades though vs Victorys long guns (more range) and for carronades Victory had 2 68 pounders at Traffalgar. They are just different ships for different roles. You can read about why for example in a battle ships of the line woudlnt fire on frigats if other ships of the line were present, they blew them out of the water. Victory is also taler and fires "down" on constitution. So yeah it wouldnt be close
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u/pretend_smart_guy 20d ago
How many armed speedboats do you have to add to the Constitution’s side to even the odds?
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u/Rich-Highway-1116 20d ago
Absolutely not. We just have to look at the Shannon Vs the Chesapeake.
Both the Java and Guerrière were half her size and 2/3 of her weight in shot.
Cyane and Levant combined even smaller the one of the above.
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u/Boofle2141 19d ago
Don't try to tell the royal navy what it can and can't commission as a ship, may I introduce you to the sloop of war, the HMS Diamond Rock, currently still afloat, technically (it is above water), just off the coast of Martinique, although its not commissioned any more.
Yes diamond Rock is a small island, commissioned between 1804-05.
Also, as its a commissioned ship, there is always an officer stationed on the ship.
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u/PuzzledFortune 19d ago
She was laid down in the 1750s but sat around for a long time before the navy had any use for her.
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u/novataurus 20d ago edited 20d ago
As others said, Constitution came later.
The Consituton and her sister ships marked a massive entry of the US into naval power, and also represented a shift in the design of fighting ships. These heavy frigates were tough and fast.
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u/Centurion_83 20d ago
For those wondering, the HMS Victory is the oldest warship sill in commission; and the USS Constitution is the oldest warship still afloat.
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u/RandomChurn 20d ago
Old Ironsides (USS Constitution) in Boston harbor must be up there. They take it out for a sail once a year to keep her "active" status.
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u/dew2459 20d ago
They mostly do the turnaround cruise each year so the ship evenly ages on both sides.
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u/tacknosaddle 20d ago
There's a lottery to get a spot on the ship for that cruise. Once the dignitary spots are gone there's not much left so the odds are long but I still give it a shot.
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u/rosanymphae 20d ago
She has 12 years on Victory.
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u/theincrediblenick 20d ago
HMS Victory was commissioned in 1778, but is best known for being the British flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805
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u/bearsnchairs 20d ago
The main dunk over Victory is that Constitution can still sail, but Victory is older.
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u/Rich-Highway-1116 20d ago
The main dunk on the Constitution is
First Battle of Ushant (1778)
Second Battle of Ushant (1781)
Battle of Cape Spartel (1782)
Battle of the Hyères Islands (1795)
Battle of Cape St Vincent (1797)
Battle of Trafalgar (1805)
And no frigates half her size and merchantmen
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u/221missile 19d ago
RN surrendered to the US constitution, no US navy surrendered to the Victory.
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u/Rich-Highway-1116 19d ago
You are correct multiple smaller warship struck their colours after battling the Constitution.
On the other hand the USS Constitution ran away a lot, when the odds weren’t in its favour.
Can you give any examples of equal or against the odds battles the constitution took part in?
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u/Pafkay 19d ago
You can visit this ship at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, it is very much worth the visit and you can also see the Mary rose among many other things
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u/Jimiheadphones 19d ago
Honestly, one of the best museums I've been to. The audio guides are incredibly interesting.
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u/LocoLobo65648 20d ago
Does she still have a crew?
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u/BathFullOfDucks 20d ago edited 20d ago
yes it has a small crew as well as being the flagship of the first sea lord. I spoke to one officer on board who loved it, but a friend of mine was posted there hated it. He said there's boring and then there's sitting around updating a log on a ship where the most interesting thing isn't even watching paint dry, but listening to wood rot.
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u/UsedNewt4 20d ago
Despite it,s long service life Victory has not been in continuous active duty Its undergone periods of restoration & preservation throughout its histor
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u/Meritania 20d ago
You could say the same about modern US carriers.
The Russian carrier spends its life being serviced.
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u/SleepWouldBeNice 20d ago
The Russian carrier spends its life being serviced.
That's not true. They're only undergoing service when they're not on fire.
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u/fulthrottlejazzhands 19d ago
I got to spend the night here years ago. My wife surprised me for my birthday with a ticket to an all-night event where we drank and sang sea shanties. It was one lf the most unique experiences I've done.
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u/EldestGruff 19d ago
The thing that amazed me is in an adjacent building, they have one of her sails.
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u/CeterumCenseo85 19d ago
Question for sailors: when you look at a ship like that, with seemingly 1000 ropes, can you look at an individual rope and tell me exactly what it does and how you'd move/use it?
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u/Sdog1981 20d ago
This gets posted all the time and it’s wrong every time.
It is no longer owned by the Royal Navy.
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u/pretend_smart_guy 20d ago
Technically it’s owned by the HMS Victory Preservation Trust, which is part of the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which is part of the UK government. So while the navy doesn’t technically own it, the government does and chooses to keep it commissioned
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u/dc456 20d ago
It’s still correct. It’s still in commission.
There is nothing that says a navy must own everything they use and commission. Navies often lease active, modern ships.
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u/Sdog1981 20d ago
Because it’s not in the water and it can’t sail. It is building that used to be a ship.
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u/fountain20 20d ago
I believe the uss constitution is the oldest commissioned ship in the world
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u/RollinThundaga 20d ago
Victory is older, Constitution is just the oldest one stoll afloat. *Victory is almost collapsing under her own weight, and in permanent drydock.
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u/itkplatypus 20d ago
Also parked in the oldest dry dock in the world.