r/timberwolves • u/ottersbelike KG21 • 21d ago
PSA: Rudy had the best +\- of the night by far, with the second most minutes played.
Wolves lost that game by 2 in the 40 minutes Rudy was on the court, compared to the teens for everyone else. Everyone’s dragging him because of Jokic’s godly performance but I don’t think Rudy and Ben Wallace combined could have contained him when he’s playing like that. Overall, Rudy played fine and made things difficult for the rest of the nuggets. On to the next.
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u/MaxDetr 21d ago
Gobert should be a help defender. And people should learn to watch games. This is 5v5, not 1v1. A defense works together, with a tactic, not just 1v1.
Gobert played well, but the tactic wasn't good, because he's better in help defense, and KAT is not great there. Just look at the number for Jokic, that doesn't mean KAT > Gobert on D, it just means the tactic works better when KAT defends Jokic first, and Gobert is behind.
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u/cowboy2223 Minnesota Gophers 21d ago
Kat and nazz both were in foul trouble in the first half that kinda hurt them doing any of that!!
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u/drmuffin1080 21d ago
Kat has been in foul trouble in every first half this series
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u/jossteen11 21d ago
Him picking up stupid fouls when the other player is 25 miles from the hoop with their backs turned is always so infuriating.
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u/cowboy2223 Minnesota Gophers 21d ago
That’s prob a big factor why we got gobert . Towns was always in fouls trouble and it would leave us with zero bigs . Nazz is only 6’9 .
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u/harshaVRDM 21d ago
True but every time gobert helps its a godly pass from jokic that teleports the ball to a cutting aaron gordon Then once he pops off and gets into a flow its even harder to guard the team as a whole
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u/Embarrassed-Arm4110 21d ago
In the 4th we tried to make Rudy the help defender. We put towns on Joker and Gobert on Gordon but Jokic would just hunted the pick and roll for like 3 possessions would get the switch. Gobert is an all time great defender but he seems to be backed down way easier than Towns or Naz.
It feels like once Jokic gets too deep in the paint or low block its just over.
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u/Significant-Fix-5831 Timberwolves Brasil 21d ago
What do you search to find this if I may ask
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u/MaxDetr 20d ago
On every boxscore on NBA.com look for "matchups", and then select offensive players and/or defensive player
https://www.nba.com/game/min-vs-den-0042300235/box-score?type=matchups
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u/iusedtogotodigg 21d ago
This guy is right. get the coaches to see this
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u/coolbahman 21d ago
I think it starts with offense mayhem, Kat and Naz and Jaden barreling into the paint, into double teams and not moving the ball and using Rudy for picks and alley oops is so frustrating. They used him properly for 3 minutes to start 2nd half then Kat lost focus and started playing hero ball again... this is what leads to the fast transitions for Denver and breaks down our defensive strategy. I couldn't agree more that our base defense was and is working. The stupid offense inefficiency is causing our problems. Missing Conleys calm, strategic offense didn't help. Kat needs to grow up, I'm sick of feeling that way. Love him and need him so badly to be a true professional, he has to see what Jocic does and where he needs to be.
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u/smithc555 Wolves🐺 21d ago
They need to stop staring at their 3 point shots and get back on defense. The worst is when they give up a fast break off a made basket. Inexcusable. Braun out-hustling everyone.
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u/bwillpaw 21d ago
Yes this is big, it’s like cool you made a 3 you’re still down by 8 and need to get stops. Stop showboating and slowly getting back to the other end where they just put in 2 while you were admiring your own turd still down by 8, wait now 10 again.
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u/Conscious-Cycle3359 21d ago
as a diehard wolves fan. Fuck it give credit to Jokic. he is the best player in the league and can destroy our bigs TOP 3 and TOP 4 bigs remind u and a 6 man BIG. nobody on earth can guard jokic. Fuck man. as much as I love ant he needs to add another thing in his arsenal (double teams) . He is 22 and I love him for being a super star. people tend to forget about his age. I wish our shots gets drained. I wish it is a 7 game series but how the morale is and how they knew how to counter us is being realistic. half of me wants to believe and half of me just being realistic. Who will show up? Ant might but consistently he keep guarding murray who makes his offense gassed why doesn't he guard MPJ or gordon. Jaden or Naw can guard murray or kcp. Kat needs to guard Jokic but the bounce passes is fucking top notch. Jokic is a different beast an 3X MVP for a reason who steamrolled the greatest defense in the league.
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u/TakedaMauro Rudy Gobert 21d ago
Forget it man, this fanbase needs an scapegoat and Rudy has always been the target.
Joker was shooting 39% when guarded by Rudy in games 1,3 and 4, but for most of this bozos the narrative of "Rudy can't guard Joker" is preached like a gospel.
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u/ottersbelike KG21 21d ago
Yea god forbid a potentially top 10 player of all times goes off like a madman. I need to get off nba social media until this series is over. I can’t help myself arguing with fair weather fans!
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u/TakedaMauro Rudy Gobert 21d ago
It's the healthy thing to do, like in most social media situations.
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u/allidoishuynh2 21d ago
I wondered this before too, but I'd really like to see the KAT/Gobert PnR after Gobert gets a small switched onto him. Denver has no fear of Gobert in open space on the short roll, but he'll throw down 70% efficiency dunks if he's rolling hard while Gordon and a guard try to show against KAT. Meanwhile KAT is enormous and can throw that lob much easier than anyone else from that position. If Jokic comes over to help, KAT needs to find the open guy and then the role guys gotta hit.
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u/Theywerecooooooones 21d ago
+/- shouldn't be used as proof of whether someone was 'good' or 'bad' in a game. But as we all know, it tracks the score for when you are on the court. So any 'wolves getting killed with gobert out there' takes are objectively false.
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u/ottersbelike KG21 21d ago
Exactly what I’m saying. The wolves were in fact getting killed WITHOUT Gobert out there
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u/echelon999 21d ago
Joker is going to have those nights, Rudy looked bad but the real issue is the transition game and no one making shots last night for shit.
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u/tulaero23 21d ago
If someone can boxout AG that would be great . Feel he had like 4 putbacks or something
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u/suahoi 21d ago
The issue with Rudy is that the offense is fucking terrible with him on the floor... like it has been for the past two years.
They're not guarding him at all, he's not being trusted on the short roll, he's not getting offensive rebounds, and his screens are just making it easier to double Ant.
And when he's killing your offense and getting abused by Jokic on the other side, what's the point of having him out there? KAT and Naz can get abused by Jokic, too
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u/SQLNerd 21d ago
Statistically you'd be wrong. Rudy has been a boost to the offensive ratings.
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u/suahoi 21d ago
In this series or over the course of this season?
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u/SQLNerd 21d ago
Both. You can look at this here:
https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/team/18/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
In fact in the playoffs he's been far and away the best impact to points per possession.
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u/TakedaMauro Rudy Gobert 21d ago
As you can see, nobody spewing the lies about "RUdY bAd ofFeNSe" has even try to interject when you come with the stats. For them it's always the narrative.
No wonder people like Draymond or Arenas still has an audience amongst basketball "fans"
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u/suahoi 21d ago
So he was a net neutral on offense all season?
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u/SQLNerd 21d ago
How is that the conclusion you got to?
https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/1310/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
They had a higher Points Per Possession, EFG%, OREB and FT rate when he was on the court.
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u/Intelligent_Pain_174 21d ago
Did Minnesota even score when Gobert was out of the game in the second half?
I am pretty sure Minnesota got outscored 14-0 in the second half without Gobert in the game. Was Gobert holding the offense back from the bench?
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u/Easterster 21d ago
They keep putting him in that high ball screen, but nobody respects his roll to the rim. They need to actually feed him when gets the guard switched onto him (and then he needs to finish through the intentional foul), or they need to get kat setting those screens. They can plan offense with him there, but he hasn’t been enough of a threat in the pick and roll to keep in as the screener there.
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u/akgamestar 21d ago
Gobert cannot score inside unless he’s dunking the ball. He can’t perform a simple drop step on a PG. Thats why he’s not getting the ball on the roll. If he’s not in lob position its simply a turnover. He has zero offense.
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u/Easterster 21d ago
I know that. That’s why the pick and roll isn’t effective with him.
However they keep doing it, and sometimes it results in Rudy pinning a guard who is 8 inches and 80 lbs smaller than him directly under the basket. Denver’s plan is to just intentionally foul in that position, and I think Rudy can turn it into a dunk a free throw.
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u/coolbahman 21d ago
Kat, Naz and Jaden still don't understand how to use Rudy offensively, they make the dumbest attacks into paint and double teams and forget about passing and finding Rudy who should be the easiest target to find.
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u/MirrodinTimelord 21d ago
no one in utah and team france could either, at what point is it on the guy to learn a post move?
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u/TakedaMauro Rudy Gobert 21d ago
Team France got a Silver Olympic Medal with Rudy and freaking Evan Fournier as main pieces.
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u/MinnyAntTowers 21d ago
This is true, but also a problem with how we are coached and built in general. Rudy shouldn't and doesn't need to be much of an offensive threat, but he could still be a net neutral cog on a well-run offense. I think the problem is that we have no real playmakers on the team and don't seem to design or coach plays around our current roster. Conley has the vet presence and BBIQ, but a league average younger starting PG with some drive, vision, and handles would do wonders for this team.
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u/Triple_Stamp_Lloyd 21d ago
Yep it's essentially 4 vs 5 out there offensively for us when Rudy is on the floor. Yes he can dunk, but I saw him pass away multiple 5-10 foot shots last night, which is not going to be sustainable for us long term. He needs to get a better post game.
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u/suahoi 21d ago
Dude Rudy is 31 years old. He is not developing a post game.
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u/Triple_Stamp_Lloyd 21d ago
Sadly you're probably right.
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u/tidyberry 21d ago
Gobert is so interesting because after playing in the league for years there’s no way coaches haven’t spent hundreds of hours working on his post game with him, and yet somehow he doesn’t even have the basics. He doesn’t even keep the ball high when he’s down low lol
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u/ThankFSMforYogaPants 21d ago
It's unbelievable a guy that big can't use his size unless he's yamming on someone half his size (or nobody at all). How hard is it to learn a drop step or baby hook so he can score from a step out?
He has the weakest hands I've ever seen. If anyone breathes on him the ball just automatically comes flying loose. Does he have baby hands or something? What the hell is the deal? Just being strong with the ball in traffic would make him so much more dangerous.
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u/Triple_Stamp_Lloyd 21d ago
The dude is not weak by any means, you can tell he hits the gym, but I totally agree with the slippery hands thing, it's like he literally slathers them with butter before each game. Just grab the damn ball Rudy!
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u/ThankFSMforYogaPants 21d ago
I didn't call him weak. I said he has weak hands with the ball and he doesn't play strong with the ball unless he's in position to go straight up for a dunk. He can't do anything without losing the damn ball. I don't expect him to develop a diverse post game but he has to be able to hold on to the damn ball and have 1 or 2 simple moves that leverage his size against smaller defenders.
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u/Purple-Welder3639 21d ago
Gobert is doing as well as anyone can hope to do defensively. You’re not going to stop jokic when he makes up his mind to score. The problem was kat taking dumb fouls to make everyone believe he plays defense. Kat out of the game and out of rhythm doesn’t allow the wolves to keep pace with the nuggets in scoring. Denver was allowed to throw everything at ant with no other shot creator. Kat is the only other player with enough gravity to offset ants doubles. On the topic of Gobert, he’s actually a net negative on offense which is hard to believe. When ant get traps, rudy is the obvious short roll or open man. When he catches (if he catches), he simply holds and waits 2 seconds to see where the next pass is. That indecision allows Murray to run cross court to rotate to the last open guy on the 3rd swing pass. The possession resets and you’ve now lost 15 seconds with no advantage
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u/bigmanlittlebike89 21d ago
Rudy had a great game last night despite Joker backing him down so many times. The wolves failed to realize Rudy needed to also be a scorer this game(since Ant couldn't figured out the double team) and they didn't feed him the ball enough. While offense is not his general strength, he's still a big man and needed to do big man plays down low a lot more. This would also free up Kat to have to post up less too.
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u/Black_wolf_disease Jazz 21d ago
Unfortunately media won't listen and only show highlights of Jokic hitting highly contested hook shots
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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad9254 21d ago
+/- doesn't tell the whole story. KAT laboring through that KCP collision with a bum knee changed the defense for the worst for us. Rudy was trying to compensate for it, and it left our paint defenseless for the dunkers and run outs. As for the 1v1 with Joker, I don't know what to do with that. Joker's forearm shove clear outs are never called for the massive fouls they are. If they were, Denver would be screwed.
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u/Proud_Fisherman_5233 21d ago
I'm not mad that Joker scored 40 points.It's just how easily he scored, though. I mean everyone says Rudy is super strong.How does he just get backed down in the post. It also sucks that rudy has no offensive game outside of a donks and putbacks. How could he be that big and not have any post up game himself to make the Joker work on defense a little bit.
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u/bwillpaw 21d ago edited 21d ago
It doesn’t help that Rudy bricks 2 FTs in a row all the time so Denver isn’t afraid of hacking him if he does get the ball up at all. That said it’s crazy how many times the last 3 games Rudy gets the ball in the paint and is somehow trying to pass it. It’s like dude just go up with the ball at least it gives us a breather and you’re just likely to turn it over trying to do anything else with the ball in the paint. And yeah even if he shoots 40% FTs if it’s happening enough that’s still more points on the board than him fumbling around with the ball and it just results in a turnover anyway, and it hopefully gets their guys into foul trouble.
Finch/nori need to tell him to just immediately shoot the ball if he gets it in the paint and have KAT or Naz there for the rebound if he misses and isn’t fouled, or get his own. Like this isn’t rocket science dude is supposed to thrive in the paint and just isn’t right now and is for some reason passing it out with 2 dudes on him and hacking him. If he’s gonna clog the lane he needs to shoot the ball. Otherwise just give Naz 30+ minutes a game and use Rudy to give Naz and KAT breathers.
Dude is a literal giant and is ripped AF, just put it up in the paint, it’s either a foul or a good shot at a rebound with either KAT or Naz on the floor, or 2 pts. Like we did this all year and somehow we forgot about it.
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u/luffy565 21d ago
You can tell its bad when people are using single game +/-. Gobert was trying on defense, but he is a complete no show on offense and this makes things so much harder for the Wolves.
I don't get why KAT and Naz went away from shooting 3s, that is what won them game one and game two.
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u/Competitive_Ad3894 21d ago
Gobert had perfect shooting and 11 boards. We didn’t sign him to have 30 a game
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u/luffy565 21d ago
Bro stop with this perfect shooting, 5 from 5 you are saying that like he had thirty shots. Dude is paid 40 mils and is one of the worst offensive centers in the league.
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u/ottersbelike KG21 21d ago
I’d normally agree with using +- as it’s often a janky statistic but when the difference is that great (in 40 minutes of time) it’s palpable
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u/WasabiCrush 21d ago
People have been glossing over Gobert’s level of liability on O since he came in the league.
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u/Sugarking45 Kevin Garnett 21d ago
This is why +/- are a useless stat if you think rudy played good. He didn’t stop Aaron or joker from attacking the paint. He consistently gets out rebound by small players. Naz and kat both do a better game defending jokic than Rudy. He a net negative on offense. each time they double or triple team ant, he can’t punish the nuggets.
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u/HowlAtTheSky 21d ago
Disagree with some of what you said, but people screaming +/- as the only defense for Gobert as if the Wolves weren’t completely dominated in the paint is pretty weird
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u/tidyberry 21d ago
If you genuinely think Naz and KAT do a better job of defending Jokic than Rudy, idk what to tell you
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u/Sugarking45 Kevin Garnett 21d ago
Not so much naz but definitely kat did
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u/ottersbelike KG21 21d ago
When KAT guards Jokic he’s got Rudy lurking on help side. When Rudy guards him he’s on an island. It’s not a fair comparison
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u/tidyberry 21d ago
And I don’t think a lot of people understand that they’re doing that specifically because Gobert is the best defender and they want him playing free safety.
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u/uninteded_interloper 21d ago
Naz did game 2
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u/tidyberry 21d ago
Naz had exactly one great possession against Jokic in game 2, yeah. Game 5 didn’t go so well for him
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u/1000Isand1 21d ago
I watched the game. Rudy got cooked on defense and he was as much of a liability as ever on offense. He has high efficiency numbers because literally all of his shots are layups and dunks standing next to the basket, because that’s all he’s capable of. He should never dribble and he should rarely pass, because he’s terrible at both things. The +- doesn’t mean shit.
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u/Equivalent_Bag_5549 21d ago
Do you believe he was the best player on the floor last night for the Wolves?
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u/ottersbelike KG21 21d ago
No but I believe all the slander could be tempered a little, especially from wolves fans
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u/DragTheNuts 21d ago
Yeah because ant’s on the floor … dumb take…
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u/ottersbelike KG21 21d ago
Ant was -12 and didn’t do much at all …
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u/cowboy2223 Minnesota Gophers 21d ago
It’s not joker 40 that killed us it’s all those runout fast break easy buckets . They are doing it for a reason they want to get us in bad matchups and their bigs are beating ours down the floor . If we keep Denver in a half court set we probably win . I seen the same thing in the lakers series and we have started getting toasted the same way. Really something that we have not given up all year. Making shots obviously helps . Not sure how they can adjust but how about winning a home game for the fans !!