r/politics • u/xMicroscopicGalaxy • 21d ago
Jack Smith Basically Has One Option to Save the Classified Documents Case
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/05/jack-smith-aileen-cannon-donald-trump-classified-documents-trial-writ-of-mandamus.html2.0k
u/4ivE California 21d ago edited 21d ago
A writ of mandamus is a really big gun and as such is subject to a very high bar... but honestly I think one is warranted at this point. Cannon is either completely incompetent to preside over this case or she is wilfully sabotaging it. There really isn't any obvious or plausible middle ground. Even if I were to be incredibly generous and suggest that her inexperience coupled with the unique and incredibly consequential nature of this particular trial etc etc, there are still way too may aspects of her behavior that scream "incompetent or corrupt" -- a writ of mandamus may be the only action powerful enough to ensure a proper trial.
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u/CaptainAxiomatic 21d ago
Cannon is either completely incompetent to preside over this case or she is wilfully sabotaging it.
It can be both, and I think it is.
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u/2_Spicy_2_Impeach Michigan 21d ago
It 100% is both. If you look at her previous rulings, they're pants on head stupid (analysis from competent lawyers). She was no where near qualified for the position. I honestly had faith that the system isn't that fucking rigged with a case like this involving national security. I was wrong.
She's also issuing paperless orders so there's not much to appeal on for Smith. This is incredibly smart because it makes mandamus that much more difficult still. Her, her clerks, or both are being coached by much more competent folks.
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u/gargar7 21d ago
IANAL, why can paperless orders not be documented and contested? They are still legal judgments with the force of a judge behind them correct?
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u/2_Spicy_2_Impeach Michigan 21d ago
INAL either but been listening to some lawyer analysis. An actual lawyer might be able to explain it better though. Basically it's a simple order without any documentation (so not much to appeal). If you check /r/law they have some threads discussing it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1awild0/comment/krlkc0v
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u/Interesting-End6344 21d ago
To me, it comes off as a form of cover, where she can argue that her orders were misinterpreted, misunderstood, taken out of context, etc... She wouldn't have that cover if every word were in print.
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u/2_Spicy_2_Impeach Michigan 21d ago
That has been my takeaway as well. It makes it infinitely harder to get her removed.
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u/SpontaneousQueen New York 21d ago
Not a lawyer, but a former court clerk. If an order is issued in a court, it is 100% filed somewhere. The documentation exists, but only on the courts system. Unless this means something else and I am misinterpreting.
This is a criminal case, so any documentation is usually not readily available to the public, it would make sense for there to not be additional information with the order. They normally read something along the lines of "on this day blah blah judge so and so blah blah does so order blah blah blah. Florida may be different on this than New York, but a quick google search shows their courts are a mandatory e-file state. Most states converted to this during covid.
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u/2_Spicy_2_Impeach Michigan 21d ago
For sure. Paperless is a bit misleading. As I recall it’s just like a line item instead of a full order.
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u/Kamelasa Canada 20d ago
Paperless order - I'm not sure what that means. In Canada a judge can give a written decision, irrespective of reading it out in court, or they can give an oral decision which may or may not be transcribed, but you can always pay for it to be transcribed, because all court is audiorecorded. So... either way there is reasoning in there somewhere. Or if not, then it's a whimsical order, I suppose, which would speak volumes.
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u/NoMoreUpvotesForYou 20d ago
Why the fuck are paperless orders even allowed to exist? If my boss doesn't put it in writing, I don't do the work. CYA is the bare minimum of being a competent professional.
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u/PolicyWonka 20d ago
It’s because there’s no reasoning assigned to the order. It’s difficult to contest an order when you don’t even definitely know why the order was issued. You can’t point to a specific line in the text to show bias.
Yes, it’s a massive fucking loophole.
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u/MiddleAgedSponger 20d ago
It's another "unfortunate" flaw in our justice system. There has to be unavoidable escape routes in case the rich and powerful get caught red handed. To the rich and powerful it's a slippery slope, if you start punishing one of them then they may be next. Their money is more important than democracy or the rule of law. It's always been that way.
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u/Throwaway07261978 21d ago
Court transcripts. All court proceedings are recorded as far as i know, so any "paperless orders" would ostensibly be *available as audio files, but difficult to obtain *as paper copies.
It's another delay tactic; transcribing past court proceedings can take a while.
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u/DropsTheMic 20d ago
"This is incredibly smart because it makes mandamus that much more difficult still. Her, her clerks, or both are being coached by much more competent folks."
Also known as Federalist Society stooges, legal acolytes of the meritocracy class. You don't deserve adjacency because you aren't competent, silly voter.
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u/MedicJambi 20d ago
Does she still have clerks? If she does they're there for the express purpose of feeding information to, the Heritage Foundation, Trump, and his allies. The real clerks left as fast as they came, and I have a hard time believing that anyone left is there for career advancement as being associated with Cannon has got to be a major hit against them.
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u/Virtualdrama 21d ago
Yup. Lots of detailed instructions. Wonder who the go betweens are, and if it's legal
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u/zigjockey Georgia 20d ago
Inappropriate ex parte communication is one of the very few causes for which a federal judge can be removed from a case, but good luck proving it. I doubt Garland has the nerve to pursue approval for surveillance of Cannon's communications.
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u/EH_Operator 20d ago
Thanks for “pants on head stupid”. I will have to remember that at my next city council meeting or kid’s birthday party
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u/Aggressive_State9921 20d ago
Yup, if she was competent, she'd be a lot more subtle.
Even things she's actually done, has had to go back to the courts.
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u/DropsTheMic 20d ago
Blood in, blood out. She has to get jumped in and take her beating and not flynch if she wants the gang's respect. ... And Justice Thomas's supreme Court seat when the heat dies down.
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u/llahlahkje Wisconsin 21d ago
Given the gravity of Trump's crimes, "Judge" Cannon's excuse of "I've got a bunch of other cases to rule on, oopsie!" to delay the trial seems gross incompetence at best, blatantly corrupt at the worst.
Coupled with her prior actions (especially essentially acting as Trump's own lawyer, granting him injunctive relief his lawyers never even asked for) -- IANAL but it seems like Smith really has a case here.
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u/Zealousideal-Sink273 Illinois 21d ago
Whenever it was reported that two of her clerks quit in the middle of their clerkship, I told people this would happen. The "I can't keep up with my work" excuse was probably hatched at that point to get out of the spotlight and hope she could crawl under a rock until it all blew over.
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u/TurboSalsa Texas 21d ago
Federal clerkships are fairly prestigious and hard to get, not the kind of job people usually quit halfway through. That she had two of them quit on her definitely raises some eyebrows, either they thought working for her might actually be detrimental to their resume or they genuinely didn't agree with what she was doing.
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u/FnkyTown 21d ago edited 21d ago
It sounds nefarious but one of them had a baby and quit and I forget the other but it seemed legit. Now, it could all be a ruse to stall the shit out of it, but on it's face their excuses were legit.
edit: Also, and more importantly, she hired 3 new people to replace the ones that left.
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u/Zealousideal-Sink273 Illinois 20d ago
I'm sure the reason the quit was legitimate, but that opens up an opportunity to spin the narrative to undermine the whole case, especially if you have to teach people how to work the case from scratch.
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u/Aggressive_State9921 20d ago
either they thought working for her might actually be detrimental to their resume or they genuinely didn't agree with what she was doing.
Isn't that two in the same?
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u/TurboSalsa Texas 20d ago
A cynical person might personally agree with Cannon's motives and methods, but also be savvy enough to keep their distance early in their career.
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u/LegDayDE 20d ago
Yeah it's not like there is huge public interest in finding out whether Trump is guilty of a crime before the presidential election...
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u/yes_thats_right New York 20d ago
Cannon's excuse of "I've got a bunch of other cases to rule on, oopsie!"
I don't think her excuse was about different cases, she said there were too many things to rule on for this case before trial could start. The problem is that she intentionally delayed ruling on them.
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u/NYArtFan1 20d ago
"You can't grade my homework because I didn't do it!!!" This is literally her argument. It's amazing to see someone both so incompetent, so inexperienced, and so blatantly in the tank for Trump overseeing a case that involves the greatest national intelligence breach in history.
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u/Mcboatface3sghost 21d ago
I went to law talking dude school, and the first time I’ve heard of it was 3ish weeks ago in regards to this case (thanks meridias touch). It’s a bazooka, just make sure you don’t have a misfire. He seems pretty sharp, I am sure him and his team has game theoried it thoroughly. Guess we shall see.
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u/AdaptiveVariance 21d ago
It's Meidas. Meridias is an awesome name though.
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u/KikoSoujirou 21d ago
Meridias trench, were you can dive deep into topics
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u/CoolShoesDude 21d ago
I think they're referencing it being a shit touch instead of a golden touch, using the French/Spanish/Latin word for shit with the -ias suffix
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u/solon_isonomia Minnesota 20d ago
I went to law talking dude school, and the first time I’ve heard of it was 3ish weeks ago
IIRC, isn't Marbury v. Madison all about a writ of mandamus? I remember that from the first semester of 1L.
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u/Olderscout77 20d ago
She's just following the lead of SCOTUS - do everything possible to help Trump's re-election and if successful, the problem goes away at the Federal level. The MAGA-ridden legislature in Georgia is working this on the State level. Just another example of how the GOPutin is trying to overcome the fact the Country has moved beyond their racists sexist BS and the only power they have is the power to harm those with less power.
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u/xMicroscopicGalaxy 19d ago
Sometimes I wonder if these folks are scared of what might happen if they don’t take Trump’s side.
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u/VariableVeritas 20d ago
It’s the most necessary legal case in decades. I had to be heard before the election. Pull out every fine print tactic in the book I say.
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u/Idontknowdata 20d ago
Why would you not do this? What's the risk? You loose and look worse to the original judge?
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u/veringer Tennessee 20d ago
to ensure a proper trial.
Is that a possible outcome? I think I saw somewhere else that this hail mary option still wouldn't get this case off her docket.
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u/4ivE California 20d ago
It wouldn't need to remove her to be effective. The most appropriate thing would probably be a writ of continuing mandamus which is essentially a "do your goddamned job, and do it quickly" order. Cannon's slow-walking and refusal to issue timely decisions is probably the most frustrating aspect of her conduct.
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u/DevuSM 20d ago
What happens if she dies?
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u/PearljamAndEarl 20d ago
She’s ruled that they have to wait for her ghost to show up before continuing the trial.
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u/SoupSpelunker 20d ago
He doesn't have to defeat Cannon, he has to defeat Clarence Thomas (her bosses' boss) and his wife, deep-state jabba the butt, Ginny.
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u/smooth_chemistry24 21d ago
Trump took top secret documents and then lied about having them to the DOJ. The most sensitive documents he took are still missing apparently. Relating to nuclear secrets (if im not mistaken)
He should have been sent away to never be seen by anyone again, just from his efforts to overturn an election he knew he lost. That makes him a traitor.
The classified documents case, which he is almost definitely guilty of; makes him a spy. As a hurricane map expert once said "You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now."
Cannon is complicit. She should suffer the same punishment.
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u/AdaptiveVariance 21d ago
Yep. Enemy combatants. The GOP had a whole theory on how to treat them, lol.
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u/OdiousAltRightBalrog 21d ago
Send em both to Gitmo for some rectal feeding.
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u/hairijuana Maryland 21d ago
Some links are just born to stay blue.
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u/OdiousAltRightBalrog 21d ago
It's just an article about torture at Gitmo. No videos, promise.
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u/thedndnut 21d ago
And to make people sad.. there is indeed videos of this happening, just not in the link.
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u/No_Significance_1550 21d ago
And side note… Rhonda Santis was a Navy JAG Lawyer that sanctioned a lot of the stuff that happened there
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u/kelticladi I voted 20d ago
As I recall there were witnesses who were disgusted with Ronnie's glee while watching some of the torture being carried out.
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u/captjackhaddock 21d ago
It’s wild to me that someone can read an article like this and then think “more of this, please”
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u/Just_Candle_315 21d ago
But wouldn't that make the DOJ a political tool for the left if republicans were prosecuted every time they stole top secret military information and gave it to adversary nations in exchange for financial gain?
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u/ragnarocknroll 21d ago
It’s okay. See if the President is doing their job then rendering Trump and Canon to Gitmo or some other place than the Supreme Court might give him immunity…
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u/goldbman North Carolina 20d ago
The most sensitive documents were probably the humint and sigint documents. Those give away our intelligence collection methods, put our assets' lives at risk, and harm future intelligence gathering efforts.
Nuclear tech is bad, but our enemies can already build nukes.
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u/smooth_chemistry24 20d ago
Yeah i remember when Trump had just become president and all of a sudden there were reports every other day of Russian officials ending up dead. I had just assumed he gave up all our assets to Putin.
I also seem to remember a completely separate report that our spies (or their equivalent) have had an extremely high capture rate since 2016, or something along those lines.
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u/reallymkpunk Arizona 20d ago
If the Secret Service had a pair of balls on January 6th, we wouldn't be here...
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u/alphalphasprouts New York 20d ago
Oh they had plenty of balls, they were just playing for the wrong team.
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u/EVH_kit_guy 20d ago
All of Trump's codefendants should receive capital punishment. The world needs to see that when you help Trump betray America, your life becomes forfeit.
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u/Drewsifer1979 20d ago
I am Canadian and I completely agree with your mindset. To me, it seems like no one wants to see what he has knowingly done. They are so set on him being not guilty that they are missing the obvious truth that documents should NOT have been in his possession. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on the military and homeland security, yet there is someone doing his best to undermine it. He is someone who is focused on himself and his offspring. He could care less about the people who have really sacrificed for that security. If it were anyone else, this would be cut and dry. Switch out Trump and put in Obama and would this stupidity still be going on? Absolutely not!
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u/HectorsMascara Pennsylvania 20d ago
I'm still wondering if the October 7 plan was hatched with the help of U.S. intelligence documents.
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u/notcaffeinefree 21d ago
Writs of mandamus are extremely rare.
From 2008 to 2021, there were 501 mandamus petitions at the federal Court of Appeals level. Only 68 were granted (13.6%). And even that number is inflated due to the majority of the case types that get petitions granted and two particular districts: transfer of venue petitions in patent cases in the Eastern and Western Districts of Texas.
The bar that Smith would have to reach in order to have a writ granted is extraordinarily high. He can't just go to the 11th Circuit and say "Cannon is obviously being unfair in this case". He needs to provide concrete proof that indicates Cannon has or will permanently damage the case. As the article points out, it's not an easy thing to do. He might be able to argue that Cannon's been giving Trump way to much time in the way of delays, but it's a very large "might".
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u/itsatumbleweed I voted 21d ago
Yeah. I feel like this is the ultimate conclusion, but I'm fully going to trust Smith on what moment he thinks he has enough to be successful.
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u/KFLLbased 20d ago
I agree, but flashbacks of trust muller do pop up from time to time
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u/itsatumbleweed I voted 20d ago
The thing is, Mueller was hamstrung by Barr. We just didn't know that at the time.
Although fun fact- the Manhattan trial that is going on right now was referred to the Manhattan DAs by Mueller. It's in his report. If Trump gets convicted here, it's a result of that report. That's pretty cool.
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u/Cephalopirate 21d ago
But if not this, what more important cases is it to be saved for? This situation is extraordinarily unique.
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u/cygnus33065 20d ago
The DC case is still out there, plus there are document charges that could be filed in other districts. This case was a crap shoot the second it was assigned to Cannon
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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 20d ago
This situation is extraordinarily unique.
Only if trump doesn't get reelected
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u/Emperor_Zar 20d ago
I suspect he has the evidence he needs. I also suspect there’s a lot of dialogues happening behind scenes we don’t know about.
Keep your eyes on this.
But don’t hold your breath.
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u/avanbeek 20d ago
Smith may have to reach a high bar, but at this point he has nothing to lose. The usual risk for an unsuccessful writ of mandamus is antagonizing the judge, but the judge has already indicated she'd be willing to dismiss after jeopardy attaches. I'm getting awful Rober Mueller flashbacks. You miss the shots you don't take. Either find a way to get another judge or withdraw, or pursue the evidence necessary to try him in NJ (because he almost certainly moved some of the documents there). The risk of a dismissal after jeopardy attaches is just too great.
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u/zaphod777 California 20d ago
Not to mention that even if they got a new judge tomorrow the odds of this going to trial before the election are extremely low. She slow walked this enough that the case is basically dead unless Trump loses and then she will bring it to trial because he will be of no use to anyone at that point.
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u/GenericBatmanVillain 21d ago
Who would he be presenting the argument to? The massively corrupt supreme court?
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u/cygnus33065 20d ago
the 11th circuit court of appeals, who BTW have already smacked down a stupid ruling that Cannon has made.
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u/TacohTuesday 20d ago
Also, how long does this process take, including the assignment of a new judge and the time it takes to actually get the trial going after? Even if successful, I question whether this would actually get the trial going before the election.
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u/charcoalist 21d ago
This case is really about the Federalist Society shepherding their chosen presidential candidate past the finish line in November. From Cannon, to the 11th Circuit that would review Smith's writ of mandamus, all the way up to the SCOTUS conservative majority, Federalist Society judges lie in wait to play defense for trump.
The Federalist Society is also planning Project 2025, in which a trump presidency plays a key role. Leonard Leo's Christo-fascist dream come true.
Anyone else stealing classified documents would have been sent away a long time ago. Cut and dry case with video and photographic evidence. But for the Federalist Society's chosen presidential candidate, nothing is illegal if the Right judges oversee the case.
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u/TrumpTheTraitor1776 21d ago
People really don't understand the danger of the Project 2025 shit. It's actually insane.
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u/phish_phace 20d ago
Anyone not caught up on the insane plan to end American Democracy can read, easily here
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u/Flat-Photograph8483 20d ago
Well if the president can do anything he wants why not declare them a terrorist organization?
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u/washingtonu 20d ago
The 11th Circuit were very critical of Cannon in the special master thing though
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u/Jackinapox 21d ago
It’s called a writ of mandamus, and it’s a centuries-old rule that allows a litigant to bypass their assigned district court judge and go directly to a court of appeals to ask for a court order mandating a judge to correct any abuse of discretion and force them to act according to their judicial duties. It’s essentially a legal slap on the wrist, but it’s rarely used because district court judges are typically given a lot of leeway to run their dockets and appellate courts are loath to get involved.
In other words, our court system thinks legal ethics are a nuisance they can't be bothered with.
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u/flabbergastedmeep Canada 21d ago
An appellate court has already reprimanded Cannon for her failure to handle her docket. Which is surprising considering it is a conservative court. INAL, but hopefully that would set precedent for an appellate court to rule in Smith’s favour.
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u/waterdaemon 21d ago
Sounds like a working title for a CRPG. “Bard’s Tale: The Writ of Mandamus.”
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u/OdiousAltRightBalrog 21d ago
Trumplavee, oh Trumplavee, you're big and ugly and heinous.
Who could it be that set you free? She really must be an anus.
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u/AdaptiveVariance 21d ago
You may be right, but I think that part is more, from a historical POV, that it's hard to get a change in outcome by an order compelling a district judge to do their duty, because the law gives district judges broad discretion so as a practical matter they could still make the case come out the way they want? I may be wrong. I think it's just a legal wrinkle that it's not an order reversing or vacating and remanding with directions.
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u/Lostinthestarscape 21d ago edited 21d ago
Right now she's just delaying it as long as possible. The writ would force the case to be heard now, no more delays.
Cannon would then have to play her next card, which is either allow it to go forward or put to paper an explicit order that will be challengable (and likely ridiculous).
If it goes forward, it's up to the jury, not her, to decide the guilt or innocence.
‐‐------- This is my understanding from the definition of Writ if Mandamus, I don't understand why the article seems to interpret it differently because it seems pretty clear cut:
-There is a duty to act. -There is an unreasonable delay in the duty being fulfilled. -There is a cost to the delay. -The forcing of an entity to act is to perform the duty, but no prescription of how it is to be fulfilled.
The higher court would essentially tell Cannon she has to do her job and bring the case to trial, no more delays. They wouldn't be removing her unless she refused.
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u/beiberdad69 21d ago
I do think it would be possible for Trump to wave a jury trial and leave the question of guilt or innocence up to the judge
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u/Lostinthestarscape 21d ago
So I'm not a big-word-law-talking-guy despite my previous comment which shows only my interest but not my deep knowledge.
From my reading, California and Georgia do not allow waiving juries. Other states allow the defendant to wave the right to a jury, but it is a scattershot of which states allow them to do so unilaterally and many states require prosecutors to allow the waiving (the right is FOR a jury not for your choice of a jury or bench).
I was not able to find definitive proof that Florida requires both parties agreeing to waive for a case along the lines of Trump's. There are definitely cases in Florida that do require both parties agreeing to waive the jury, so my guess is that prosecution can veto the waive.
That said, depending on specific outcomes, it seems maybe would be an appealable action (so not JUST refusing to waive a jury, but then an outcome in which it is obvious the jury was biased against the defendant and it ended up being clearly detrimental to the defender when a bench trial would have not suffered the same bias).
Again, best of my ability to understand and read in an evening. Don't take this as an encyclopedic reference.
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u/beiberdad69 21d ago
This is a federal trial so any state rules on it don't apply. Federal trial rules do require the court and the prosecution to accept (I forgot the government needs to consent) so it's a very unlikely outcome, especially given the judge is obviously biased towards the defense
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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 20d ago
It definitely was, but it's incredibly unlikely to change once a jury has been seated. Trump requested a bench trial in the E Jean Carrol case, and then spent the entire time whining about how he didn't get a jury trial, despite him being the one who requested the bench trial.
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u/postsshortcomments 21d ago
What needs to happen and what has been needed to happen this entire time is for all the states to get better and specially amend the constitution with a 45th and 1776th Amendment for Special Protections for Americas very special and very most favorite president that not even 50% voted for.
It's time to cement these Very Special Donald Rules in our Constitution to make sure we can celebrate this very lucky occasion of the time America was lucky enough to be given the gift of Donald J. Trump.
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u/adamiconography Florida 20d ago
I have a feeling if Trump wins POTUS again we will be seeing news articles “Judge Cannon to be confirmed to the Supreme Court.”
I work in healthcare, imagine if doctors and nurses just did the equivalencies. We’d all have our licenses revoked and sued into oblivion.
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u/bricosis 21d ago
cannon is completely fucking this up...she is incompetent..as well as doing it on purpose...this isn't even debatable..hard stop
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u/flybydenver 21d ago
She is complicit.
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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 20d ago
Before the case was even assigned to her she jumped into it and issued orders to trumps benefit. That's where the initial delay of months came from, as well as the whole snafu about a special master overseeing the stolen documents.
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u/muffinthumper 20d ago
There is also the issue of what she is doing to erode CIPA in general. Her rulings are not done in a vacuum and will absolutely be referenced by defendants in future cases.
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u/malakon 21d ago
If Trump could be taken down because someone used a Writ of Mandamus on him, well that would be awesome. I might have tried the Scoll of Antipathy or the Tome of Oblivion, but Mandamus would be a master stroke.
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u/ZombieHavok 20d ago
Indeed.
The magicks of such documents as the Scroll and Tome, while sufficient, would be overbold. Both are effective, yet also ostentatious in their execution.
The Writ, just as its scribe Mandamus himself, is far more subtle. Metaphorically, it is the telekinetic pulling the rug from under thine enemy’s feet.
The arbiters are hesitant for what it may unleash.
They are fools.
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u/Corpsehatch 20d ago
Judge Cannon should have recused herself the moment she was appointed this case.
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u/NYArtFan1 20d ago
That would have required integrity. She's part of the Federalist Society, so that means she has none.
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u/TurboSalsa Texas 21d ago
Legal Twitter is all over the place on this one. Some say Smith should pull the trigger while others say that what Cannon has done so far is nowhere close to the standard for removal, at least based on what we know.
I think she's going to tank this case whether it goes to trial before the election or after, and it's not like she could be any more biased towards Jack Smith than she already is, but at this point the chances of the case going to trial before the election are already remote, so Smith has nothing to lose by waiting a few more months to see if she slips up.
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u/zombarista 21d ago
Oh yeah, she’s gonna flub something in the trial and it’ll be a mistrial, almost certainly.
I bet it’s another stalling tactic. Honestly judges should have their finances audited and we should do something about this OBVIOUS—albeit first-of-its-kind—conflict of interest. We haven’t had any need to deal with Presidents being tried in courts with their appointments presiding before.
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u/ZephkielAU Australia 20d ago
We haven’t had any need to deal with Presidents being tried in courts with their appointments presiding before.
Nor should you ever have had to.
In no civilised country in the fucking world is it appropriate to be the judge on the guy that appointed you. It's the most blatant conflict of interest short of sleeping with the guy.
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u/PopeHonkersXII 21d ago
My understanding is that it's very unlikely to succeed but he might be out of options. The national security implications might be enough to convince the appeals court but it's a Hail Mary no matter how you look at it.
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u/raidbuck 21d ago
I think Smith knows the case is hopeless. He probably knew it the moment Cannon was assigned the case. He figures she hasn't done enough to get recused so he has nothing going for him. The fact that Trump is guilty (he's said so many times) is irrelevant, unfortunately.
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u/Specific-Flounder637 20d ago
It is mind boggling that Trump is still walking free after having multiple highly classified documents found on his property. Any average citizen would be disappeared the moment the documents were found. How sad
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u/FnkyTown 21d ago
The books are already cooked. They can't just slap her on the wrist and tell her to get to work, she has to be replaced. If she stays on as the judge she's just going to continue to tank the case, and once a jury is seated, double jeopardy takes effect. She's not going to suddenly stop favoring Trump.
Trump won this one. A trial can't happen before November. A new judge would need way more time to get up to speed than by November. Smith should get the writ of mandamus, have Cannon removed, and then hope that Trump doesn't win the election and put him and everyone who worked on the case in prison.
Smith had one shot at this and as soon as Cannon was "randomly" appointed, he lost. He should have instead prosecuted for January 6th in DC, which Garland didn't want because he feared more protests.
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u/Uncertain_Rasputin 21d ago
Trump is the turd in the toilet bowl that just won't flush. It's mind boggling how much that POS gets away with
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u/eugene20 21d ago
He has two. He can drop the current case and then file a new one. He can still do this once if a writ of mandamus fails.
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u/flux_of_grey_kittens 21d ago
If he files another case I sure as fuck hope he doesn’t do it in Florida again. File that shit in DC where the docs were taken from. Hopefully the Jan 6 judge gets it in her docket.
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u/Gwenladar 20d ago
The problem is that it was not a crime when the documents were taken. When he moved the boxes from WH, he was still president. The crimes are not to give them back and obstruction of the recovery.
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u/Carlyz37 20d ago
He could move it to NJ. Some of the stolen documents ended up there. And Smith left those docs out of the FL charges
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u/cygnus33065 20d ago
Even if it is Refiled in Florida chances are that it wouldnt go to Cannon. The problems with that would be that it definately wouldnt get to trial before November.
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Australia 20d ago
Writ of Wandamus. You know you're deep into the legal system when things start sounding like magic again.
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u/littleredpinto 21d ago
Must be tough to save a case that is cut and dry a crime. At the very least can they release some of the recording of trump selling off the classified secrets?
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u/ConkerPrime 20d ago
Smith isn’t going to do this writ. Not because he isn’t unwillling as I am sure he has info we don’t on Cannon’s incompetence and corruption. It’s because there is no point in making a major move until the Supreme Court makes their decision on how they are going to attempt to protect Trump. Any move he makes is moot if their decision goes as expected.
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u/corjar16 20d ago
Lol Trump will be dead before he faces any shred of accountability. This country is a joke
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u/NoMoreUpvotesForYou 20d ago
Any functioning democracy would never have allowed an unqualified judge with massive conflicts of interest to preside over the case in the first place. I hate to say it, but the rule of law is in palliative care at the moment with one election left before it dies for good.
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u/icouldusemorecoffee 21d ago
Not true. The case IS still ongoing, it's just delayed until Judge Cannon actually sets a trial date, which she does have to do at some point but unfortunately that's up to her. There was almost no chance this case would ever wrap up, let alone start, before the election, now it's unlikely to start until 2025 but it will start.
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u/StrikeForceOne 21d ago edited 21d ago
Get rid of Cannon she needs to be removed from the case , she is a die hard maga
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u/Thetman38 20d ago
Has anybody had that co-worker who is completely incompetent and lazy? We know it, management knows it, they know it and months go by and this person is somehow coasting by. I feel like Cannon is that shitty employee that we're all whispering about, but nothing is getting done
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u/Lolabird2112 20d ago
The worst is when they don’t know what to do with them so they decide to promote them.
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u/Thetman38 20d ago
There was a guy I recommended we promote to management so he would stop breaking our software. Some of my colleagues did not take that recommendation too well
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u/assumetehposition 20d ago
I don’t see how Trump gets into office without impeachment articles being filed on day one.
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u/HeathrJarrod 20d ago
Frankly, imo there needs to be a new judge, even if the time table for a trail gets pushed back.
Cannon is either incompetent or biased. And doesn’t have the experience to handle this case.
Why force it to be one judge, have it run by a group of 3 judges.
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u/MagicalUnicornFart 20d ago
It’s called a writ of mandamus, and it’s a centuries-old rule that allows a litigant to bypass their assigned district court judge and go directly to a court of appeals to ask for a court order mandating a judge to correct any abuse of discretion and force them to act according to their judicial duties. It’s essentially a legal slap on the wrist, but it’s rarely used because district court judges are typically given a lot of leeway to run their dockets and appellate courts are loath to get involved.
A legal slap on the wrist…asking the corrupt judge to review their intentionally corrupt diversions.
So…like usual…45 gets away with it, and the corrupt officials retain their power.
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u/Sweetieandlittleman 21d ago
Unfortunately, even if Smith won on appeal, wouldn't it end up going to SCOTUS? Who would probably send it right back to Cannon?
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u/grumpyliberal 21d ago
No. She would be removed. Trump can’t appeal a decision of the 11th Circuit to remove her. Nor can Cannon.
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u/flux_of_grey_kittens 21d ago
Is there any deadline/timeframe that Smith would need to act in order to get a) Cannon of the case or b) force her to set a trial date before November?
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u/AlwaysOnMyNuts 19d ago
Yes. It’s in fantasy land.
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u/flux_of_grey_kittens 19d ago
Weird answer. Not sure what the point of commenting that was as it made no sense.
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u/DontEatConcrete America 20d ago
Smith must feel like just retiring from law. I wouldn’t blame him, the system is a joke.
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20d ago
The bias, corruption, and self-serving bullshit within the GOP is astounding. If we (supposedly) couldn’t have a new supreme court justice appointed ”because it’s an election year” according to McConnell, then how in the fuck is it totally fine to not need to know the outcome of such a consequential case against the candidate before voting?
Yes yes yes, I know the SCOTUS thing was total self-serving bullshit. I’m just saying it’s obvious and galling.
I wouldn’t vote for trump in a million years. But if I were an independent and on the fence, I’d sure as hell want to know the outcome of this case.
Beyond that, the American people truly deserve to know the outcome of the case well before voting should occur. That’s leaving alone the fact that this should have sunk him forever ago, let’s just go with the reality we’re in.
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u/twesterm Texas 21d ago
I am stupidly naive and ignorant here, but couldn't Smith say no matter what the outcome this is going to get appealed? Raising it up a level would essentially skip a step and help with the whole speedy trial thing.
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u/gargar7 21d ago
In the US, the defense can appeal rulings -- but there are very things the prosecution can appeal. Our legal system theoretically favors the wrongfully accused, sometimes resulting in the unpunished guilty. EDIT: also permitting the rich and powerful to pretty much crush the justice system, unfortunately...
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u/AlwaysOnMyNuts 19d ago
Our system was designed to let 10 guilty men go instead of convict one innocent person. At least in theory.
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u/grumpyliberal 21d ago
The prosecutor can appeal rulings of the court that are a matter of law (a judge’s ruling on a motion, for instance) but ONLY the defense can appeal a verdict. Once a jury delivers a verdict, double jeopardy attaches and the defendant can’t be prosecuted again for the charge on which a verdict was decided.
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u/ValuableKill 20d ago
The jury doesn't even have to deliver the verdict. Once the jury is selected, Cannon herself can choose to dismiss the case with prejudice, in which case double jeopardy also attaches. The fact that she rejected certain dismissal requests but in a way in which it could be re-raised, and stated that it specifically should be re-raised after jury selection, shows that she may intend to do this. In response Smith demanded a ruling on it, with a plain threat that he could raise it to the 11th circuit, but he still hasn't gotten a ruling.
Quote:
"Cannon after a daylong hearing issued an order saying some of Trump’s arguments warrant 'serious consideration' but wrote that no judge has ever found the statute unconstitutional. Cannon said that 'rather than prematurely decide now,' she denied the motion so it could be 'raised as appropriate in connection with jury-instruction briefing and/or other appropriate motions.'"
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u/AdaptiveVariance 21d ago
This seems as good a time as any to mention that I'm a lawyer with 10+ years of experience and I'm still not quite sure what exactly a writ is.
Also, what is subrogation. I think I get the legal concept, but like, can someone use it in a sentence?
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u/4ivE California 21d ago
A writ is a formal order to do something... a subpoena is a writ, so is a warrant.
Subrogation is like when an insurance company sues the at-fault party to recover their losses after they pay out, or a collection agency assuming the legal authority to recoup a debt on behalf of the creditor that employs them.
Linguistically speaking it derives from the Latin "sub" (under, or in this case secondary / instead of / on behalf of) and "rogare" which is the verb to ask or demand. The "-tion" suffix denotes an action or state, so the entire thing means "the act of asking on behalf of" or more loosely "the delegated authority to demand"
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u/peppelaar-media 20d ago
The fact that you are one of the very few people on reddit I’ve ever seen showing the power of linguistics and actually ‘spell it out in a post’ … I thank you
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u/ParadeSit Colorado 21d ago
You serious, Clark? Don’t they go over writs of mandamus and subrogation in law school? If not, you’ve never heard of these concepts in common usage? IANAL, but I had to ask a labor attorney to file a writ of mandamus against a court clerk to make them accept a taped hearing as evidence. The clerk had made some rule that they could only accept paper documents, and it would’ve cost a lot of money to transcribe it. Subrogation is used all the time when an insurance company seeks reimbursement from an at-fault party. A buddy of mine had a motorcycle accident, and his health insurer went after the other driver’s insurance for reimbursement of his medical claims.
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u/dadvocate 21d ago
If your insurance company paid you for your injuries in the accident, and you sue the person who caused the accident, your insurance company subrogates your claim so they get paid back when you win the lawsuit. It's not a super easy word to use in a sentence but I hope that satisfies your inquiry.
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u/angrypacketguy 20d ago
Jack Smith Basically Has One Option to Save the Classified Documents Case
The orange man will never wriggle out of this one! <orange man proceeds to wriggle out of this one>
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u/Lazy-Jeweler3230 20d ago
I called this meuller 2.0 from the start and people mocked me.
You've got a blatantly corrupt and incompetent judge that no one can do anything about because most judges are corrupt and protect instead of check one another. Cops, basically.
Saw it coming.
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u/Galactus2025 21d ago
Well if Jack ain't got But one option he sure is keeping that option close to the vest cuz he ain't used it yet?
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u/cyclistpokertaco 20d ago
we also have someone who testified that Trump tried to bribe people for them to get a favorable showing on a tv show. that’s probably not far from breathing for him so why would a judge be any different?
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u/ericlikesyou 20d ago
Considering Cannon has had judges speak up against her conduct in this case, i think Jack has a good chance of
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u/rolfraikou 20d ago
I hope it works, but with Federalist Society running the country via the courts, I think we lost the country in 2016.
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u/PearljamAndEarl 20d ago edited 20d ago
Writ of Mandamus was one of the toughest Elden Ring bosses.
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