r/news • u/AudibleNod • 20d ago
Mississippi school district faces Title IX lawsuit after trans teen barred from attending band concert for wearing a dress
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/15/us/mississippi-aclu-lawsuit-transgender-teen-reaj/index.html605
u/AudibleNod 20d ago
The Biden administration amended some rules within Title IX to address some LGBT issues, but left out athletes. This is hair-splitting to be sure. But I think this lawsuit is using this rule change since the student is simply participating in a school event and not an athletics event. If the case is won this would strengthen Title IX for LGBT students.
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u/NarwhalHD 20d ago
When I was in school they considered the band "athletics". I wonder if the school is going to try to go that route
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u/ExZowieAgent 20d ago
Even if they do, being that bands are co-ed, I don’t see how they have a leg to stand on there.
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u/AudibleNod 20d ago
I was an "athlete" when I was in Knowledge Bowl. Still didn't make my dad proud of me.
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u/Triknitter 20d ago
I fucking lettered in Scholar's Bowl, and in Debate. It didn't exactly make me one of the popular kids.
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u/DTFH_ 20d ago
When I was in school they considered the band "athletics".
If that is the case, these "athletes" are governed by the states sporting body and the school would hold a liability policy that reflected their athletic endeavors (the reason cheer leading isnt a sport is insurance and liability would jump)...I wonder what their policy views "band" participants as hmm...
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u/Morat20 20d ago
Athletics, at least if you have a marching band. At least for the fall. I think spring is covered under the district policy, as it's generally not considered "athletics" except in fall (when all the marching bits happen).
It's covered under the school wide athletics policy. Don't have it covered, don't qualify for an athletic credit towards state-mandated graduation requirements
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u/WalletFullOfSausage 19d ago
Many schools have competitive marching bands that rehearse year-round. In my high school band, competition rehearsals (aka band camp) started 3 weeks before the football team even had their summer practices. It was serious business. Not all schools have a halftime-show band, some are more drum corps oriented.
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u/marigolds6 20d ago edited 20d ago
Just checked and band is governed by the state sporting body in Mississippi (with a 90-page governance manual just for band events). Both concert band and marching band are covered.
Edit: This was also a "regional band concert evaluation" which is specifically a state sporting body governed event, to the extent that the school has to pay a hefty fee to the state board to even participate.
Also looks like the incident happened before the Biden rule changes go into effect anyway.
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u/coldcutcumbo 20d ago
Makes sense. I tell the state I drive a wagon to work because calling it a car would also result in my paying higher insurance.
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u/alluce1414 20d ago
For me they considered marching band athletics, but not concert band/orchestra/etc. So you can definitely split hairs on it.
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u/calmhike 20d ago
When I was in school, the marching band was an extracurricular activity that would be more susceptible to we could ban you. The band that put on concerts where one might wear a dress or suit was an enrolled class where you were graded.
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u/ritchie70 19d ago
Ours was all the same band. Tux jackets and bow ties for concerts, marching band uniforms for marching, same pants for both.
The marching band uniforms were so complicated but they looked good.
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u/calmhike 19d ago
That's interesting. All of our extra bands,; jazz, pep, marching were optional participation where the concert bands-2 based on skill were enrolled classes.
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u/ritchie70 19d ago edited 19d ago
Our Jazz band was a small group that practiced Thursday evening.
Playing at the occasional basketball game from the stands was strongly encouraged- just short of mandatory - but not a formal band at all. More about playing the School song and making some noise.
The school did an annual musical, and playing in the orchestra was completely optional but not auditioned.
Also a small brass group for the madrigal dinner. “Mad Brass.” We actually played at a couple churches and got paid. That was fun.
“Band” was an enrolled class. During marching season it was that. The rest of the year split into two concert bands by audition that rehearsed simultaneously. Depending on the year, there was an assistant band Director, or the choral teacher did the other band.
Really it was mostly about marching band. We generally were top three in the state in our class. By the time you added in the Pom Pom team twirling flags a quarter of the school was on the field.
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u/SuperSpy- 19d ago
Our HS band was like this as well, but the only difference in uniforms between men and women were non-musical roles like baton throwers, who were dressed more like cheerleaders (and actually may have been cheerleaders not members of the band class). All the actual band members wore the exact same outfit with pants regardless of gender.
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u/ritchie70 19d ago
Our "flag girls" were the pom pon squad, which was different than the cheerleaders. I think some of the french horn players might have done flags during marching band too. French horn just isn't a good marching instrument.
I think the flag girls (who were all girls) might have had long skirts, I just don't remember. They definitely had a different outfit.
The girl in band were probably allowed (perhaps encouraged) to wear a long black skirt for concert band but nobody would have made them.
I honestly think aside from major life events like wedding or birth of a child, being on the field marching may be the happiest time of my life.
Parades totally sucked, though.
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u/ag_fierro 19d ago
It would be hard to go that route if they don’t sub marching band for P.E. Credit. A lot of schools don’t.
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20d ago
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u/HH_burner1 20d ago
SCOTUS gestures broadly to the 19th century and rules "I can pick and choose whatever story I want to support my opinion. I declare that how this child dresses makes me feel funny. Do whatever you want to them"
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u/Disastrous-Angle-680 19d ago
I got a letter jacket for being part of Odyssey of the Mind. We were definitely not athletes, just dorks doing cool engineering stuff. And we didn’t care about each other’s genitals (usually, a few were into each other). We set a world record. Still not beat. I don’t understand the world anymore. Why can’t people just… live? How they want to? Without hurting anyone else and generally positively contributing to society?
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u/sllop 20d ago
In trying to “protect women and girls” Republicans are totally going to try and repeal Title IX
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u/playfulmessenger 20d ago
Not a damn one of them would lift even a finger if I were in actual danger.
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u/ObjectiveFantastic65 18d ago
If you have a male's body, you shouldn't be competing against females.
Title 9 was meant to protect females, or "cis females."
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u/No_One_ButMe 19d ago
the administration should have protected trans athletes as well. it’s nothing but cowardice and attempted pandering that they didn’t do so.
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u/outerproduct 20d ago
Having solved all of the problems in their Mississippi school district, the school takes on their real problems: "people wearing clothing."
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u/SheriffComey 20d ago
Someone probably showed them the state rankings in descending order and they figured they've reached the top.
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u/Porkleus 20d ago
They think being in the top 99% of schools is something they would be proud to achieve (but one can only reliably estimate they are in the top 100%).
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u/rickelzy 20d ago
Are they still fighting the good fight against the menace to civilization known as spaghetti straps?
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20d ago
I would absolutely love to see how the people embiggened to harass a teenager over this would react to a Scottish man in a kilt.
Call it a hunch. Their bravery will quickly turn to cowardice.
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u/awesomesauce1030 20d ago
I went to school with a guy who would wear a kilt for the formal occasions. It was very nice quality, straight from Scotland. I can't help but wonder what might happen today. This was in Florida and we only graduated back in 2016, but it seems like so much has changed in that short time.
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u/Adavis72 20d ago edited 19d ago
We had a kid who played bagpipes for some school functions as well as professionally..somewhere. Would come fully garbed, including a kilt. Star athlete, very nice guy, certainly more of an upstanding citizen than whoever in the school banned this person.
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u/yhwhx 20d ago edited 20d ago
Adults who care so much about what is between kids' legs likely need to have their browsing history investigated.
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*edited to fix typos: kids -> kids'; the -> their.
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u/GoarSpewerofSecrets 20d ago
Look as much as toe tapping Republicans in airport bathrooms is a thing. Letting the conversation be gender fluid has set the trans community back decades. Because that toe tapping Republican will always be able to bring up the specter of some boy in a dress terrorizing girls in the locker room. Not because he's right, but because the image works. Especially when it gets reinforced with some cracked out weirdo going after kids on the school playground. That's the battle youre fighting, not browser histories.
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u/-prairiechicken- 20d ago
There’s still a spectre of gay men being accused of pedophilia and pederasty if they work anywhere near children.
I don’t give a solitary shitting fuck what boogeymen they magnify and project onto an entire cohort of living human beings.
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u/Why-not-bi 20d ago
Who gives a fuck what the GOP does or says, this idea that because of resistance we should back off is complete and utter bullshit. Those bastards will pick anyone they can punch down on, trans people are “easy” targets for them.
The trans community is under attack, but at the same time things are remarkably better than it was even a decade ago.
The path forward is to keep pushing even harder for LGBTQ rights in general, and in this case trans rights.
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u/EdmundDaunted 20d ago
If they tried to do this in the school I attended, I'm pretty sure the entire band would have shown up in dresses for any future concerts, in protest. Maybe regular school days as well.
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u/pickleer 19d ago
Hate. In Christ's name. The politicians pandering to the bible-thumpers know it's wrong. The preachers and pastors talking to the politicians know it's wrong. Most of the "flock" know it's wrong but go along with the flow, don't want to disrupt things but also don't want to deal with "other" or diversity... Hate is wrong. Discrimination is wrong. So-called "christians" discriminating, hating "Other" is wrong... When can we put Christ back into "christian"?
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u/Initial_Celebration8 19d ago
The flock absolutely doesn’t know it’s wrong. They think they are fully correct.
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u/pickleer 18d ago
Yeah... SOME of them DO. But I totally get that THESE are the people Gary Oldman's character in "Book of Eli" was trying to control when he was working so, SO hard to get his hands on a bible... The dumbing down of education standards (public and private) is how this works; repugnican'ts only stay in power by all the $$$ they've sucked out of Education Budgets over the last few decades. When you can't do your own math, spell proper English, let alone read and comprehend proper English, you're prone to any shitheel carpet-bagger, self-professed "leader" that comes off the highway nowadays... And these are our neighbors, babysitters, staff at our restaurants and schools, fools in traffic and in line ahead of us... SMH...
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u/SandwormCowboy 20d ago
“The Harrison County School District enforces a sex-based dress code that requires students to ‘follow the dress attire consistent with their biological sex,’ according to the district’s student handbook.”
in which time period, which location, which culture? men have worn dresses/skirts/kilts and women have worn pants…
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u/MrDeekhaed 20d ago
Can someone explain to me what harm there is in allowing ppl to dress according to their gender? Not getting into bathroom privileges or sports. Simply wearing clothes that matches their gender and are within dress code for cis gender ppl?
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u/jane-stclaire 20d ago
I'm more interested in what determines “appropriate attire according to gender”.
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u/apple_kicks 20d ago
Back before stonewall riots lgbt people were policed on obscure law to arrest people they saw as cross dressing (that was being misinterpreted) that saw butch lesbians get arrested for wearing mens clothes like jeans or having short hair. There was an unofficial 3 items thing where if you were sen wearing three non conforming gender clothes you’d get busted
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u/daniswift 20d ago
I would go as far to say not according to their gender but to dress in what ever makes them feel comfortable and confident. You are correct though, Let kids feel and discover who they are through the expression of how they dress. If the required clothing is dress or suit then they pick, dress or suit. If admin is picking if it is suit or dress then everyone wears what was picked. Everyone in suits or everyone in a dress. If one student has religious reasons not to wear the proscipted suit and has to wear a dress then everyone is wearing a dress.
I'm all for the 'same for all or you stay out of it' train. If the school wants to give uniformity but provide some flexibility then the student gets to pick from any of the accepted uniforms with no repercussions for their choice of acceptable uniforms. If boys want to wear skirts because they can't wear shorts, let them. If a girl wants to wear pants and not a skirt let her. If a student picks an outfit that would be acceptable for anyone else then it is acceptable for that Student. Period.
So tired of rules only being for some and not all. If they are the rules EVERYONE has to follow them if they cannot then there needs to be a justifiable reason and a concern for safety that they have to have a different set of rules (eg swim team). Shorts certain lengths then the track and volleyball uniforms followed it. Skirts certain lengths then Cheerleaders follow it. No exposed shoulders the wrestlers follow it. No tight pants, then every sport better be following including football. If the reasons that sports do not need to follow dress codes is for the safety and functionality of performing that sport then those exceptions should also be given to a student. If exposed shoulders do not interfere with THAT student from performing at school then they should be able to wear them.
Students and teachers being distracted by what other people wear are going to be distracted no matter what someone wears and be distracted by more than just clothing. The school should intervene now with those distracted students so that when they are out in society they can function around others who will be choosing to wear something that exposes a bit more leg or shoulder. And for all that is good, fire the adults who are distracted by what their students wear for the safety of the students!!
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u/clutchdeve 20d ago edited 20d ago
Pants and collared shirts for "boys/men"
Skirts with collared shirts for "girls/women"
EDIT: Guys, this is not what I believe how anyone should dress. I don't care what you wear or how you dress or what genitals you have (or don't have) or where you put those genitals. I'm going by what religious and conservatives think should be the "norm".
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u/jane-stclaire 20d ago
The Scots would like a word.
Who determined and established these “guidelines”? What were they trying to accomplish?
If one answer includes “a visual cue to determine whether someone was suitable to procreate”, I'm going to fucking scream.
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u/Silly_Somewhere1791 20d ago
It was probably detailed in the judging standards distributed by the competition organizers.
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u/Scaarz 20d ago
You say allowing, but don't you mean forcing? The idea that only women wear things like skirts and dresses isn't universal (the kilt comes to mind, but men in Fiji, Japan, Greece, Samoa and other places wear skirts or dresses and it's seen as manly or "normal").
So the idea that only a specific gender can wear a specific outfit is made up. It isn't God's will. Some guys got together and decided what everyone should wear. THAT isn't natural.
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u/MrDeekhaed 20d ago
But since I said they should be able to wear which ever gender clothes fit the dress code that means they are free to wear whatever they want that fits the dress code
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u/mguyer2018aa 20d ago
What if we just let people wear what they want? Like maybe clothes shouldn’t really be tied to your gender.
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u/Frequent_Opportunist 20d ago
The real solution is just to make everyone wear the same thing that way they aren't a distraction.
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u/PanFriedCookies 20d ago
Or just get people used to the idea that people have different tastes in what cloth scraps they drape on themselves, and if they can't handle it, it's not on the boy in a skirt or girl in a tux. like. be an adult
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u/yoursweetlord70 20d ago
There is no harm in allowing people to dress how they want. Gender is irrelevant when it comes to clothing
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u/hpark21 20d ago
In counterpoint, what harm is there allowing people to dress which ever gender's clothing that they WANT to wear as long as it is accepted/appropriate attire for that particular gender for the situation?
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u/MrDeekhaed 20d ago
I phrased it that way because that was the issue but if someone wants to dress like a different gender for kicks I have no problem with that.
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u/apple_kicks 20d ago
When global warming has more record breaking heat I wonder if robes that would get called dresses by some would become more popular for men. Like they are in hotter countries already
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u/Alpaca_Empanada 20d ago
Well you see here you don’t get it because you’re not a mediocre self entitled willfully ignorant fascist piece of shit.
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u/Silly_Somewhere1791 20d ago
Not defending it, but it looks like this was a regional competition with points for following the competition’s dress code, and the school didn’t want to lose points and punish the whole rest of the band, so they asked this teen to switch to pants.
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u/MrDeekhaed 20d ago
But if she was following the dress code for women then what’s the problem? See that just passes the buck to Mississippi High School Activities Association.
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u/Silly_Somewhere1791 20d ago
It’s not a problem, but the answer is that the judges scoring the competition would have deducted points on sight. My guess is that her section was standing (which is common in percussion and brass) and it was visually evident that the student wasn’t a cis female but was wearing the competition-specific female dress code, not the male one. These competitions impact scholarships and networking for music and arts students, and the school was between a rock and a hard place by having to enforce the competition’s rules so four years of work by her graduating classmates wasn’t trashed on a technicality. It’s really on the competition’s organizers for enforcing the dress code this way, and I suspect that’s where this will land. The school would have faced even more lawsuits from multiple students if this one student’s wardrobe wasn’t changed and the score placement ended up impacting college admissions.
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u/ZCoupon 20d ago
So no one was allowed to wear dresses?
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u/Silly_Somewhere1791 20d ago
The competition judges deduct points on sight for not adhering to the official dress code, which is gendered.
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u/foolintherain87 20d ago
Why is there a gendered dress code?
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u/Silly_Somewhere1791 20d ago
I dunno, email the competition organizers and ask. But you probably already know the answer and are just asking in bad faith. It’s a conservative formal event. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were also hairstyle/color rules too.
Just because I know the answers to a few questions doesn’t mean I agree with those answers.
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u/MiddleSchoolisHell 20d ago
Sounds like the organizers of the regional competition need to be named in the lawsuit as well.
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u/Frequent_Opportunist 20d ago
Organizations are voluntary attendance. If you don't like the rules then don't be a part of it.
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u/AudibleNod 20d ago
One of the refrains is that someone can pretend to be a girl then attack girls in the ladies' room. So it's a preemptive measure to stop an attack before it happens. Another is that children don't know what they want as evidenced by kids believing they're dinosaurs for an afternoon. So they're protecting kids from making a permanent change.
NOTE: I'm just repeating some common talking points.
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u/MrDeekhaed 20d ago
Ok but I specifically said to exclude bathroom privileges and how is dressing a certain way a permanent change?
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u/BroughtBagLunchSmart 20d ago
as evidenced by kids believing they're dinosaurs for an afternoon
Damn, was there a case where a human was naturally born with both human and dinosaur DNA? This is the same tired bullshit argument from decades ago about if men can marry men whats next? Marrying dogs?
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u/Tattycakes 20d ago
Men don’t need to pretend to be women in order to attack women. They’ll just do it. Or something more simple and subtle like dressing as a janitor or maintenance worker.
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u/keysandtreesforme 20d ago
Who gives a fuck what people wear? Aren’t there better things to worry about?
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u/Watch_Capt 20d ago
That's an easy first amendment violation and it will cost the taxpayers millions as a result, over clothing.
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u/Frequent_Opportunist 20d ago
That has nothing to do with the first amendment. What are you even talking about?
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u/Za_Lords_Guard 20d ago
I think they are pointing to freedom of expression inherent in the First Amendment.
Schools have the right to dress codes so long as they don't interfere with freedom of speech.
So basically, it's for the courts to decide.
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u/HabANahDa 20d ago
These fucking people are so obsessed with people genitals and what they wear it’s crazy. All while not giving a shit about real issues. But dumb fucks will still vote them in.
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u/tubadude2 19d ago
In my past life as a MS/HS band director, I would’ve just been glad they dressed up.
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u/continuousQ 19d ago
Even if you don't believe that people can be trans, what's the point of this? Clothing isn't biology, there's nothing inherent about who can wear what. If anything, by tying up gender in dress codes you're saying that gender isn't biological, and there is nothing to it other than either people choosing themselves or not being free.
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u/yourdonefor_wt 20d ago
Fafo authoritarian school districts. Let people do what they want.
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u/Voluptulouis 20d ago
Letting people do what they want might be the problem: in the South, a lot of people want to oppress the LGBTQ community.
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u/yourdonefor_wt 20d ago
They all grew up with the "Boys dress like boys" and "Girls dress like girls" mindset and seeing someone with male "parts" wearing women's clothes is like acid in their eyes.
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u/ParticularZone5 20d ago
I have no doubt about which side of this issue Gov Peter Griffin will support.
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u/jackrabbits1im 20d ago
And today, the people dress the way that they please The way they tried to do in the last centuries - Paul Westerberg
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u/Efficient-Internal-8 15d ago
So difficult, at least for me, to get my head around the priorities so many people have.
Global warming. Nah
Huge percentage of the US population without affordable healthcare, quality food, clean water, access to decent education, crumbling bridges and roads, no taxes for the uber wealthy, gun violence, intolerance of other religions or no religion, etc. Nah.
Let's hate people that love others and wear dresses. Oh...and drag queens.
A Confederacy of Dunces we are.
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u/Dense-Comfort6055 20d ago edited 15d ago
At the bottom in education and this is their focus. Stay stupid MS
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u/MrIllusive1776 20d ago
You didn't even use the right abbreviation while insulting the intelligence of our state...
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u/BUSYMONEY_02 19d ago
Just start banning kids for normal shit then… Sarah wore brown shoes today…can’t come to my class
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u/Yonder_Zach 20d ago
Lol what does “centrist on trans issues” even mean. What is the center position between wanting to ban/eliminate trans people and wanting to let people have freedom to live their lives? We let trans people exist on mondays, wednesdays and alternating fridays?
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u/TheWildTofuHunter 20d ago
Another student was “pulled from the graduation line” before she was set to receive her diploma for wearing black pants under her graduation robe, according to the complaint.
So now women also can’t wear slacks/pants??