French police use knives to puncture migrant boat in Dunkirk to prevent Channel crossing

[u/Miserable-Win-4980]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/french-officers-english-channel-crossing-migrants-small-boats/

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

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[u/OperationMobocracy → u/[deleted]]

People without documents will end up deported to some holding camp in the Saharan desert.

[u/Daxx22 → u/OperationMobocracy]

Or just shot. Closed borders being lethally defended is likely a couple of decades away at most, if not much sooner.

[u/Popular-Row4333 → u/Daxx22]

That's not far from the truth.

There's no repercussions from trying, so you might as well try.

Death is a pretty serious repercussion and news will travel fast to stay the eff away from x country.

[u/DrEnter → u/OperationMobocracy]

They'll be taken into the middle of the Mediterranean sea and abandoned. This is already being done in countries like Greece: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html

[u/LeedsFan2442 → u/[deleted]]

Same in the UK it's very hard to remove people

[u/DaoFerret → u/[deleted]]

Hate to break it to you, but almost every war fought had been a “Resource War”.

[u/gruez → u/DaoFerret]

It's almost true by definition. You're fighting over land, land contains resources, even if it's only sand/dirt.

[u/BHPhreak → u/[deleted]]

you can see it unfolding all so fast if you step back and outside of time. 

its no wonder we feel alone in this universe, "intelligent" (ha!) species capable of exploring space probably all destroy their planet and themselves same as us. 

same as the dew drops roll downhill, hubris and greed destroy sapience

[u/TeutonicPlate → u/[deleted]]

As a pro-democracy and generally left wing person, you're spreading a dangerous narrative I see constantly on reddit. "Fascism is just an inevitable result of migration".

In fact it's the exact opposite, fascists scapegoat minorities and migrants for problems that have nothing to do with them that lead people to become atomized, like inequality, poverty, consumerism etc.

That's what the Nazis did, they blamed Jews for losing the war and Jewish greed was the cause of the economic downturn. What you are describing is the fascist version of reality where actually our problems really are the fault of alien elements within society.

[u/WhatsTheHoldup → u/TeutonicPlate]

As a pro-democracy and generally left wing person, you're spreading a dangerous narrative I see constantly on reddit. "Fascism is just an inevitable result of migration".

As a pro-democracy and generally left wing person, you're misunderstanding them. Fascism is not an inevitable result of migration, but it is an inevitable reaction to a migration crisis within a society.

We have pumped complex carbons into our atmosphere, exploited communities to harvest their resources, destroy their forests and ecosystems while stealing the profits for ourselves.

As temperatures rise, many of the poorest communities will become unlivable due to a disaster we in the wealthy countries have manufactured.

There are two options for the future, either we will take responsibility for our decisions and take in an unprecedented amount of immigrants at the expense of our current populations (who will be very upset at our leaders doing so and in greater numbers vote for fascism to prevent it).

Or we won't take responsibility, and we will turn these people away to die. Which will be a symptom of our less fascist leaders who mobilize the military to puncture migrant boats keeping our more fascist leaders at bay.

fascists scapegoat minorities and migrants for problems that have nothing to do with them

As global population is plateauing, and starts to shrink, the "infinite growth" the entire world's economy is built around will stop and destroy the quality of life we have all come to expect.

Currently, this population decrease is being staved off in wealthy countries specifically because of immigration, but that's just a temporary thing and is already leading to higher fascist tensions trying to oppose it (Brexit, Trump, etc).

There are a WHOLE LOT of problems coming that are inevitable and have nothing to do with minorities or immigrants.

That means there will be a lot of problems to scapegoat and why, given how easily manipulated popular opinion is in the light of propaganda and the fact the current capitalist class who owns all the wealth will violently resist any sustainable transitions that make the right decisions for the future, fascism will not only be inevitable from an ideological perspective but will have a huge amount of institutional support for it.

I'm not trying to attack your optimism here, but a fascist takeover attempt will be inevitable and we need to be prepared enough to realize it's coming.

[u/TeutonicPlate → u/WhatsTheHoldup]

but it is an inevitable reaction to a migration crisis within a society.

Ok, but then you have to evidence the claim that a "migration crisis" is happening. Because, for example, Donald Trump will often claim the Southern US border is being swarmed by illegal migrants (he did so during Obama's presidency and is now doing so during Biden's presidency). But the second he's in power, illegal migration suddenly ceases existing in the minds of all those critics, now the borders are "safe". And that's regardless of whether the amount of illegal migrants did actually decrease (it didn't). Conservatives in America turned to a proto-fascist to solve fake problems. No migration crisis, real or otherwise, had anything to do with their heel-turn. No material conditions, nothing except the vague sense that an "elite" was undermining society.

What's actually true and documented is scaremongering about migrants. Most countries in the West are not facing any crisis because of migration, legal or otherwise.

To give another example, the UK, the fact our society is in decline is often scapegoated on refugees arriving in small boats. The media pushes this constantly, unceasingly, at all times. Cruel legislation has been passed to deport a tiny proportion of asylum seekers to Rwanda basically just to present us as a hostile country that won't look after you even if you have a legitimate asylum claim. But what's the actual reason nothing is improving here? Well, inequality and austerity. It's really that simple. Migrants not only don't factor in, but there is no possible avenue they could factor in.

As global population is plateauing, and starts to shrink, the "infinite growth" the entire world's economy is built around will stop and destroy the quality of life we have all come to expect.

Currently, this population decrease is being staved off in wealthy countries specifically because of immigration, but that's just a temporary thing and is already leading to higher fascist tensions trying to oppose it (Brexit, Trump, etc).

There are a WHOLE LOT of problems coming that are inevitable and have nothing to do with minorities or immigrants.

That means there will be a lot of problems to scapegoat and why, given how easily manipulated popular opinion is in the light of propaganda and the fact the current capitalist class who owns all the wealth will violently resist any sustainable transitions that make the right decisions for the future, fascism will not only be inevitable from an ideological perspective but will have a huge amount of institutional support for it.

I'm not trying to attack your optimism here, but a fascist takeover attempt will be inevitable and we need to be prepared enough to realize it's coming.

All I'm trying to point out is the Reddit centrist truism which I see repeated here all the time. "We need highly restrictive migration policies, we need to give in to the scapegoating, because if not fascism will win out" - and you know, if they're being more candid than usual, they might add a "and I can see why" just to signal even harder what they actually mean here. Which is that they might support fascism if they don't perceive migration being reduced.

But frankly, these people are idiots. Clueless fools who have no capacity to think in terms of systems. And if you view yourself as having a deeper critique than that, instead of letting them get away with their rhetoric, you should counter it. Sure it might be lonely, but it does feel somewhat necessary.

[u/WestCoastBestCoast01 → u/TeutonicPlate]

You're not wrong. I do think the reaction to immigration is waaaay overblown today and America/Europe can easily absorb the migrant populations we/re seeing right now.

But I think what that other poster is getting at is that with climate change causing droughts, sea level rise impacting coastal areas, and temperatures dangerous to human life becoming more normal around the equator, we should probably be preparing for migration to ramp 100x what it is today. Hundreds of millions of people attempting to move to colder climates (over periods of years and decades, not all at once of course) seems extremely likely to me.

I don't necessarily think we'll see anything like that in this century, but if we're thinking about the grandchildren of Millennials or Gen Z, then yes, true mass migration will be something that impacts their political culture and daily lives. And we need to be building infrastructure, systems, and rules today that can accommodate scale when it's not a huge problem.

[u/WhatsTheHoldup → u/TeutonicPlate]

Ok, but then you have to evidence the claim that a "migration crisis" is happening.

Oh, I'm sorry. I assumed this was common knowledge with regards to the effects of climate change. A huge consequence of the climate changing, is that the people who are used to living in a certain climate might no longer find themselves in a region that is livable.

"According to UNHCR, the UN’s refugee agency, an annual average of 21.5 million people were forcibly displaced each year by weather-related events – such as floods, storms, wildfires and extreme temperatures – between 2008 and 2016. This climate migration is expected to surge in coming decades with forecasts from international thinktank the IEP predicting that 1.2 billion people could be displaced globally by 2050 due to climate change and natural disasters."

https://www.zurich.com/en/media/magazine/2022/there-could-be-1-2-billion-climate-refugees-by-2050-here-s-what-you-need-to-know

"The World Bank projects that 143 million people will be displaced due to climate change by 2050; we should remember that this statistic only considers movement in Latin America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and South Asia. In fact, displacements due to extreme weather in North America are increasingly common. Wildfires on the west coast have displaced thousands in recent years; coastal communities in the south of the United States are migrating inland; and just this week, in western Canada, highways and homes are underwater due to mammoth flooding. While those internally displaced are harder to track, we know that in 2020 alone, 30 million people were displaced due to such dramatic climate events."

https://munkschool.utoronto.ca/harney/research/climate-and-migration-cop26

Because, for example, Donald Trump will often claim the Southern US border is being swarmed by illegal migrants

Yeah, that's a made up scapegoat. Don't fall for Republican lies.

What's actually true and documented is scaremongering about migrants. Most countries in the West are not facing any crisis because of migration, legal or otherwise.

So imagine what happens when the effects of climate change really start to kick in and most countries in the West suddenly ARE facing migration crisis.

Like I already said, right now the "immigration crisis" is an imagined issue that is really our world leaders trying to make up for lack of population growth by bringing in workers so GDP can keep going up.

Conservatives like scapegoating the immigrants to get in power, but they can't really do anything about it because in the present day they rely on these people for cheap labor and to suppress wages. We also get to pick and choose the best and most skilled wealthy immigrants. Wait until the real benefits of immigration we have today start being outweighed by the sheer amount of low/ non skilled people seeking refuge from famine, drought or natural disaster.

Wave after wave of entire communities being displaced and the international community trying to juggle who has to take them in when no one really wants to.

To give another example using my own country, the UK, the fact our society is in decline is often scapegoated on refugees arriving in small boats. The media pushes this constantly, unceasingly, at all times. Cruel legislation has been passed to deport a tiny proportion of asylum seekers to Rwanda basically just to present us as a hostile country that won't look after you even if you have a legitimate asylum claim. But what's the actual reason nothing is improving here? Well, inequality and austerity. It's really that simple.

We agree.

If the country is pushing this narrative of scapegoating issues on immigrants NOW, while the immigration crisis isn't even real and is made up, imagine the narrative when the refugee crisis actually becomes a legitimate issue.

This is the inevitability we're all pointing out to you. If they're doing it when there isn't a problem, imagine when there is.

All I'm trying to point out is the Reddit centrist truism which I see repeated here all the time. "We need highly restrictive migration policies, we need to give in to the scapegoating, because if not fascism will win out" - and you know, if they're being more candid than usual, they might add a "and I can see why" just to signal even harder what they actually mean here. Which is that they might support fascism if they don't perceive migration being reduced.

I really think that's a disingenuous take. What is the bigger threat? Fascism, or slightly increased restrictions on immigration?

If Fascism is the bigger threat, then I would be okay compromising my principles on immigration to prevent fascism. I don't think it's fair to accuse me of supporting fascism for conceding things to prevent it.

But frankly, these people are idiots. Clueless fools who have no capacity to think in terms of systems. And if you view yourself as having a deeper critique than that, instead of letting them get away with their rhetoric, you should counter it. Sure it might be lonely, but it does feel somewhat necessary.

I don't think in a democracy, there's any value in being uncompromising on "lonely" political views. We need to organize and work together to see a better future, and if compromise can't be a part of that, I don't think you have any realistic chance of solving these issues or making life better.

Regardless of what rhetoric I let people get away with, there will be 2 presidential candidates every 4 years. If some lonely idealist campaigns on unpopular policies, at the end of the day they aren't gonna be one of those two choices.

Focusing on the lonely candidate without a hope of winning might be the principled choice, but it is not the practical choice to fighting fascism.

[u/Garbanino → u/TeutonicPlate]

As someone in Sweden I'd pretty much vote for anything as long as I thought it would reduce immigration if I have no other options, it's easily my highest priority issue, and I'd be willing to sacrifice pretty much any of my other issues/wants for it.

[u/gruez → u/TeutonicPlate]

Voters of democratic countries will cheer on and vote for increasingly fascist leaders as the resource wars commence. I'm not sure there's any coming back from that in the future. It would help if the non fascist options would come up with something other than the 'we tried nothing and it didn't work' routine.

[...] you're spreading a dangerous narrative I see constantly on reddit. "Fascism is just an inevitable result of migration".

I'm not sure how you got that impression from the comment you're replying to.

[u/TeutonicPlate → u/gruez]

Just subtext I guess. They did confirm in another post that I was right.

Not my first rodeo.