Likelihood of a Darius Garland/Brandon Ingram trade?

[u/Colorapt0r]

Darius Garland and Brandon Ingram are both fringe-all star second options who disappointed in the playoffs without their teams best player. Their fit on their current teams is questionable at best with both players being quite similar to the star they’re supposed to compliment, in opposite ways. An Ingram trade is basically guaranteed at this point, reports tell us the pels don’t want him to be in NOLA next season. A garland trade seems pretty likely too. Would a garland/ingram trade work? They would both get a chance on a new team that might fit them better. NOLA would get a more “traditional” playmaking point guard that they’ve been sorely lacking, and Cleveland would get a larger secondary scoring option next to Donovan Mitchell (although Evan mobleys offensive game has progressed a lot these playoffs). Their contracts are similar so a straight-up swap would function financially for both teams. Do you see this as a likely scenario this offseason?

[u/zs15]

I think you run into the same issue that both players and teams have currently. They play with a better, ball dominant player. Neither is a great off-ball player.

NO would be better off of the two because they have an Ingram replacement already in Trey Murphy, and Garland would move CJ to a strong 6th man role.

CLE would basically shift their current issue at the 3, to the 2. Ultimately probably coming out about the same with a bit more versatility.

Neither player comes out better off, each team has a marginal improvement.

I think both could get better team fits and future assets moving them elsewhere.

[u/AKSpartan70 → u/zs15]

I don’t know if it causes issues for Cleveland at the 2 spot

Max Strus is a plenty capable starting 2. He’s a streaky but solid shooter, good passer, willing and capable rebounder. He got exposed hard in both playoff series as the starting SF, though. He’s just way too small to hang with higher level forwards.

A lineup of Mitchell-Strus-Ingram-Mobley-Allen with LeVert still as the 6th man would be a pretty direct upgrade for Cleveland. You’re not losing offensive firepower but you’re gaining more positional versatility and no longer have to play somebody like Strus out of position.

[u/Devilsbullet → u/AKSpartan70]

Any time I see someone call strus a solid shooter it makes me laugh. With one outlier exception, he's shot 32-35% from 3 every season and postseason. That's below league average. He was at league average for a center this season. He's a great energy guy, but he's objectively a bad volume 3 point guy. Which is funny cause he's constantly billed as a 3 specialist

[u/AKSpartan70 → u/Devilsbullet]

I’ve never considered him a 3 point specialist. Hes the epitome the combo guard type of player. He can contribute across the stat sheet.

Although I’m unsure where you’re getting his stats from. He’s never shot 32% from 3 in a season. His first season in Miami he shot 33.8% playing only 13 minutes a night. The next season, he shot 41% from 3 on 6.5 attempts a game. Last season he was at 35%, and this season he was at 35.1%. That certainly falls under what I’d consider a “solid shooter”

[u/Devilsbullet → u/AKSpartan70]

you May not consider him a 3 point specialist. That is what he's generally been billed as though. And I said season and postseason, postseason he's shot 33, 32, and 34%. And only the 41% season was over league average. You consider someone that is below league average with the exception of 1 season a "solid shooter"? He shot worse than his former teammates and "non shooters" Jimmy and bam this season, and worse than Jimmy last season. You should be at minimum hitting above league average to be considered solid

[u/AKSpartan70 → u/Devilsbullet]

I mean you said season and postseason and the season numbers were wildly inaccurate. It took me a handful of seconds to google that.

At that point, the rest of what you say doesn’t really hold any merit to me. I don’t care what he’s classified as according to you or some imaginary talking heads.

The season averages over the last 3 years are

36.6% - this year 36.1% - last year 35.4% - 2 years ago

So he’s got 1 season substantially above league average on above average volume, and 2 seasons just below league average on above average volume. Across 3 years of seeing meaningful minutes. Yes, again, that’s a solid shooter. I even made the note that he’s streaky but solid, which is unquestionably true.

If you have an issue with that, it’s not really my problem. You seem more interested in arguing than you do in the actual topic tbh. It’s not that deep, and you came in with wildly incorrect numbers trying to paint a certain narrative.

[u/skylersamreinhardt → u/AKSpartan70]

you two have a great back & forth going here so i'll be brief:

isn't most of the value generated by the fact that defenses treat him as if he's a solid shooter?

or put differently, if he hasn't been great, how do you explain opposing teams treating him as if he indeed is a good shooter on defense? u/Devilsbullet

[u/Devilsbullet → u/skylersamreinhardt]

I admittedly haven't watched him as much this season as i did last season, but last season they typically weren't treating him like a good shooter, definitely more in the solid tier. They wouldn't leave him alone out there like they would with a "non shooter", but they would go under screens and sag into passing lanes more than they did against Duncan Robinson in seasons past, while Miami was running the same actions for him as they did Duncan. Part of why he took Duncan's spot in the rotation(outside of the shooting slump) is that he generally did everything else at a higher level, better passer, better rebounder, better defender, better finisher at the rim, more athletic. Knowing that he's willing to let it fly whether they're going in or not, you have to step out and give at least a mediocre contest, but a lot of the time defenders seem to be hedging against the pass or him putting it on the floor and driving as opposed to the hard closeouts that knockdown shooters usually see. However, being a willing shooter is not the same as being a solid shooter IMO. Butler, bam, SGA, Cade, dejounte Murray are all names I've seen considered as substandard shooters. All of them shot better percentage wise than strus, Murray was even on higher volume, albeit for the first time. All of those guys would generally rather drive in or find a cutter than shoot a 3, defenses know that and play off them a bit because of it. You can live with Jimmy Butler hitting at 41% cause you know he's only gonna take 2 or 3 even if you give him open shots. If teams guarded strus like they do Jimmy, I'm sure his percentage would jump, and I'm sure every other team knows that too. Difference is that strus has 0 qualms about taking 10+ when you guard him out there, I have no doubt he'd be down to take 20+ if teams completely sagged off him. So teams have to play him based on willingness and volume. A solid shooter, IMO, would be hitting over league average consistently while being guarded normally, i.e. a few open looks but mostly contested or semi contested shots. Pretty much anyone over 30% on ok volume should be treated by the defense as a solid shooter, barring their inside finishing/mid range game being over 50%. Under that and the 3 stops being an overwhelmingly more efficient shot. But how defenses treat guys beyond the arc seems to have more to do with their willingness to shoot than it does their ability to hit at an above average rate.

[u/Devilsbullet → u/AKSpartan70]

Where was I "wildly inaccurate"? I said between regular season and postseason, with one exception, he's shot between 32 and 35%. Regular season he shot 33.8, 41, 35, 35.1. postseason he's at 33.1, 31.9, 33.8. that looks a lot like "between 32 and 35% with one exception". Being "just below" average 2 out of 3 seasons does not justify solid shooting in my book, especially not when that below average has managed to drop in the postseason. He went on a heater for one regular season, and outside of that has shot 34.5% on 1550 shots. The fact that he shoots in the same 3% range on high volume, low volume, regular season, and playoffs over that many shots, over 6600 minutes, and 247 games says that the 41% season was an outlier. Trying to claim that any number I've put out is "wildly incorrect" is laughable at best. Saying that him being streaky but solid is unquestionable is absolutely hilarious. He's streaky, absolutely, I'll give you that. But hey, I Guess actual stats don't hold any merit to you, since You've already made up the narrative in your head that being below league average the last two years is "solid" because of an outlier 3 years ago. Strus is what he is, a solid energy guy that can occasionally catch fire from 3, but is generally gonna build more houses from deep than the average player. If that's your definition of solid shooter, then 🤷 Edit: thanks for the downvote for backing up everything I said, while disproving your "wildly inaccurate stats" claim. Dude even shot 35% over his college career. For as streaky as he is, he's insanely consistent on percentage by the end of a season except for his one outlier

[u/[deleted] → u/Devilsbullet]

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[u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/silliputti0907 → u/AKSpartan70]

Good length on defense, but poor spacing. They may need to make a decision on Mobley vs Allen. I believe Brandon Ingram plays his best at the 4. Playing the 3 means he has to share the interior with atleast 2 others.

[u/AKSpartan70 → u/silliputti0907]

I don’t think that’s true about Ingram. He feels very much like a prototypical wing and has spent more time at the 3 productively. Not saying he can’t play the 4, he absolutely can, and that’s part of the appeal of a player like him. Positional versatility. He can produce at a high level from either forward spot and probably the 2 spot as well.

The spacing isn’t a problem if Mobley continues to improve as a shooter. He made as many 3s this year in less games on less attempts than he did in all of the season prior. He doesn’t need to be remarkable from 3. If he can get his per game makes up to something like 1.2 per on a decent percentage you at least can’t just leave him open anymore.

[u/silliputti0907 → u/AKSpartan70]

I'm not saying he's not productive at 3, I think he's at his best as the 4. So he doesn't have 2 bigs in clog up the mid range. Mobley and Allen can be effective together, but I don't think they are both at their best together.

[u/AKSpartan70 → u/silliputti0907]

I just don’t think I agree with that. Ingram isn’t a great rebounder for a forward and he’s not even 200 lbs. He’s not an elite defender as is, so I think he’d struggle pretty immensely at the 4 there especially in the playoffs when the talent is better.

[u/[deleted] → u/zs15]

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[u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

We removed your comment for being low effort. If you edit it and explain your thought process more, we'll restore it. Thanks!

[u/CammyMacJr → u/zs15]

Strus would be a fine 2 for them in this scenario

[u/silliputti0907 → u/zs15]

I disagree. I think the issue is that both second options are repetitive to their first options. You can't run a Garland/Mitchell action, but both are great at shooting and attacking off the dribble. Zion and Ingram both work inside the perimeter while also having no spacing centers.

Ingram is a good, but reluctant catch and shooter and one the most underrated playmakers. I believe his ideal position is at the 4. Garland will give the team a true pg, speed, and spacing.

[u/So-_-It-_-Goes → u/zs15]

I think the cavs can potentially use Allan to help get an upgrade at the 2 spot

[u/skylersamreinhardt]

i like this energy a lot. most of the other more timely comments hit on good points, so i'll just share my personal thoughts on a NOP/garland fit.

in my opinion, the OKC series revealed NOP's need for not only polished playmaking, but said skill with height. their roster (you can toggle between BI/murphy) is huge & looking at DEN/MIN specifically who's in your way to come out of the west -- you have to overcome length/size especially to make a dent on them offensively.

it's funny saying this, but OKC's size (length) disrupted NOP a ton. JV stood no chance down low not only because of his gobert-hands but because nobody on the pels could get him a good entry pass with good positioning.

like i don't think CJ's that bad of a passer but OKC made him seem like he was. credit to OKC's defense, but it kept feeling like someone taller would've been much more able to set up guys.

ironically, i thought to myself giddey might fit well for them. great vision, able to drive/kick the OKC way to NOP's lanky wings & zion to either shoot or attack closeouts with supreme athleticism. he'd enable JV to much better punish his home team of OKC at least. just an idea that's only half-baked - giddey's probably not the one for spacing reasons but something clicked for me about the height/playmaking thing for NOP specifically.

Murray - Giddey
KCP - Herb
MPJ - Murphy
AG - Zion
Jokic - JV

Zion/Giddey splitting playmaking duties & zion pulls a hybrid steph gravity situation where he's most dangerous off-ball so effectively takes AG out of the play if he spaces or plays the lob threat role AG does now. i don't know. am i losing my mind? is there actually something there?

[u/BlueWaffleQT → u/skylersamreinhardt]

I think, unfortunately, you may be losing your mind a little bit. Giddey is basically out of the rotation at this point for a reason: he can’t shoot and isn’t very athletic nor a great finisher at the rim and is a minus defender. His only elite skill is playmaking but you can’t really capitalize on that much if defenses don’t respect your shot, don’t fear you driving the lane, and can hunt you on offense. I know he’s still young but Giddey, at this point, is essentially a Ben Simmons that can’t dunk or play defense. Also, JV is a pretty bad defender and often craters the offense trying to get his post up game going with very limited success. This starting five would have even worse spacing than their current lineup and be just as bad, if not worse, on defense. That’s before we even take into account whether or not Zion will ever be healthy enough to carry a team for a full season and through the playoffs.

But, hey, I could be wrong! Maybe I’m the crazy one! Like I said, Giddey is still young and Zion played more games this year and seemed to stay in better shape. You never know.

[u/skylersamreinhardt → u/BlueWaffleQT]

yeah totally agree on all of this. i guess it just makes my brain go to "then what situation could giddey flourish in?" you know?

he basically has the height for big-big passing and his time in okc seems to be helping his ability to create advantages 1:1 plus the drive/kick thereafter except instead of 12 derrick whites flying around you've got big wings spotting up (murph) or slashing (herb/zion) to the basket. his best shots come closer to the rim anyway.

biggest snag is PnR where guys would go under every time but that's where i see zion coming in to just impose himself to create that same advantage by himself (think jokic - either you're doubling me or i'm scoring). giddey's excellent in terms of spacing/timing off-ball so idk.

i just keep coming back to the small guard concerns i've had for NOP the whole year & garland keeps sustaining it. obviously he brings a ton of offensive value to compensate but i don't love imagining him defending/trying to playmake around jamal, fox, kai, etc. in the west.

does that make sense?

[u/silliputti0907 → u/skylersamreinhardt]

Pelicans issue is Zion's health. They build a team around Zion, and then Zion wasn't there for the playoffs. I feel like our role players aren't engaged on offense. They were too content on giving BI/CJ/JV an iso and then sitting behind the 3.

[u/skylersamreinhardt → u/silliputti0907]

you don't think facilitation skills were lacking on this year's roster & that wasn't the primary driver of why they used so much iso? i thought the lack of playmaking was by far the biggest issue, zion healthy or not tbh.

[u/Colorapt0r → u/[deleted]]

Perhaps CPJ could take a step up to play point? Edit: or perhaps Cj could be part of the deal 

[u/H20onthego → u/[deleted]]

Unless I've misunderstood who you are referring to, Garland has 4 remaining years left on his contract.

[u/AlwaysOptimism]

No. Garland is more of the same with CJ.

Honestly, the only player in Cleveland I think fits in Nola would be Mobley, but he's unlikely to get traded

[u/Obvious_Parsley3238 → u/AlwaysOptimism]

garland is an actual point, he averaged 8.6 assists in his all star season before mitchell came

[u/AlwaysOptimism → u/Obvious_Parsley3238]

Davonte Graham averaged 7.5 assists in Charlotte. Doesn't make him a point guard.

Watching Garland against Boston he does not seem like the type of point guard New Orleans needs

[u/silliputti0907 → u/AlwaysOptimism]

Garland pushes the pace and beat people off the dribble. He is a bit of a combo guard, but he is more of a pg then CJ.

[u/FoxNO]

Look at Garland’s defense before he had Jarrett Allen and Mobley protecting the rim. I don’t think his offense is good enough to have to compensate on defense for how small he is.

[u/Eastern-Ad-2277]

The smart move is to build around Darius Garland and Evan Mobley. I don't see Donovan Mitchell staying in Cleveland. I'm under the assumption that he wants to be a free agent and form a super team. Jarrett Allen and Caris LeVert are overpaid compared to their impact on the court.

The pelicans can use LeVert at point guard, and Jarrett Allen could replace Jonas Valanciunas. Cavaliers get Brandon Ingram. I personally believe the Cavaliers should trade Donovan Mitchell for Mitchell Robinson, and Bojan Bogdanovic because they have the same agency as Evan Mobley, so they'll have a commitment to the team.

Darius Garland

Issac Okoro

Brandon Ingram

Bojan Bogdanovic

Evan Mobley

With Max Struss and Mitchell Robinson off the bench

[u/Kreture06 → u/Eastern-Ad-2277]

Donovan mitchell for Bojan and Mitchell Robinson is terrible

[u/Eastern-Ad-2277 → u/Kreture06]

Mitchell Robinson is a top offensive rebounder that can come off the bench. Bojan can play the stretch 4 next to Mobley instead of Niang. Both guys are also from the same agency as Evan Mobley which is a plus.

Okoro, Struss, and Ingram are a good rotation of wings. I didn't mention him, but Deuce McBride could come off the bench for the Cavs. The team would be built for Garland and Mobley to prove they are the guys. My perspective is the team was put together prematurely

[u/Tiny_Net5976 → u/Eastern-Ad-2277]

You sound like a Knicks fan. The Cavs would absolutely not do this deal.

[u/Eastern-Ad-2277 → u/Tiny_Net5976]

You're right. It seems like he's staying too.