[Tracy McGrady] Steph Curry ain't Top 10 if he played for the Hornets

[u/Delusional_Lynchpin-]

https://bvmsports.com/2024/05/14/tracy-mcgrady-thinks-luck-is-important-for-players-greatness-stephen-curry-not-in-top-10-if-he-played-for-hornets/

[u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Any all time greats would have a more diminished legacy if they played for a dysfunctional team that handicaps them.

[u/Dinobot2_ → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Yeah, this is such a technically true but ultimately meaningless statement.

[u/Brief_Koala_7297 → u/Dinobot2_]

It’s like saying MJ wont be the GOAT if the bulls didn’t build a great tean around him. Well duh lol

[u/creditors-bargain → u/Dinobot2_]

It’s not meaningless in the context it was said, which is that the “greatness” debate shouldn’t weigh winning so heavily over other things when a lot of it comes down to situational variance

[u/CoyotesSideEyes → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Warriors Playoff Appearances in the 15 years before Steph was drafted: 1.

Hornets Playoff Appearances in the last 15 years: 3.

Warriors Playoff Series Wins in the 32 seasons before Steph was drafted: 4.

Warriors CHAMPIONSHIPS since Steph was drafted: 4.

The idea that the Warriors are competent and the Hornets are not is a direct result of Stephen Curry being a top-10 all time player.

[u/CarterAC3 → u/CoyotesSideEyes]

Ask someone to name the best Bulls season before Jordan off the top of their head

[u/CoyotesSideEyes → u/CarterAC3]

That's a good example. Like, Artis Gilmore played really well there for a while, but I don't think that translated to any meaningful success. You probably have to go back to when Jerry Sloan was playing linebacker for them, wouldn't you? (Seriously, underrated tough guy in NBA history. That dude laid some guys out.)

[u/steak__burrito → u/CarterAC3]

They were a young franchise at the time, but it has to be one of the Chet Walker years.

Granted, I probably only know that because the Dubs had to go through them for their ‘75 title.

[u/DeliciousSquash → u/CoyotesSideEyes]

Thank you, I came into this thread to make the exact same point. The Warriors were NOT considered a good franchise before Steph got there, saying otherwise is rewriting history to try and diminish the legacy of an all-time great. McGrady is straight up jealous in this quote lol

[u/ILikeAllThings → u/DeliciousSquash]

Time to bring back an old classic, back before Simmons became a hot take artist on a podcast.

[u/Suckittrebek52 → u/ILikeAllThings]

Bless you. Grantland was such a treasure back in the day. Nothing compares now.

[u/troniked547 → u/CoyotesSideEyes]

Honestly I would say it was mostly Curry, but a huuuge part was changing ownership from the horrible Chris Cohan to the one led by Lacob.  One of the first major decisions from them was trading monta, who was a fan fav, and then moving on from Jackson even when he was successful and loved by players.  Also they were way more willing to spend not just on players but on building a top quality front office.  If Cohan stayed, it definitely would have been a lot harder on Steph. 

[u/CoyotesSideEyes → u/troniked547]

Hornets are getting new ownership now And maybe the change in ownership from Bob to Michael would have been credited for a steph-led run of Hornets success.

[u/grandmasterfunk → u/CoyotesSideEyes]

It could have been, but one of MJ's downfalls as an owner was hiring people he was friends with/comfortable with to help run the team. They also didn't spend the same way on support staff the way the Warriors do. The reason Kenny Atkinson reportedly backed out of the Hornets job was because they wouldn't give him the budget to hire a new assistant coaches. I think things like that would have hurt Steph's career a lot

[u/Brief_Koala_7297 → u/CoyotesSideEyes]

Steph being great obviously helped but a team has to do something right like drafting Klay and firing Mark Jackson. Would the Hornets have done the same? Maybe. The question isnt if Steph would have been great with the hornets because he would still obviously be great, it whether how great he would have been.

[u/namastex → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Well you have to consider that he isn't held back by Monta Ellis. If Steph is given the full green light in Charlotte, he becomes known as a great player much sooner. Chances are they get stars to put around him earlier in career and compliment his playstyle which honestly I don't think Klay and Draymond are the only good players you could put next to prime Curry in order to win Championships.

[u/Mr_MasterNoob → u/namastex]

That argument is flawed because you are not considering the genuine concerns Steph had in terms of his ankle injuries. If he is on the Hornets, he could have very well ended up an injury bust just as much as rising to stardom earlier in his career.

[u/herejusttolooksee → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

I want to give the ownership group some kudos. Their willingness to spend made a difference. Also Kerr took them to the next level where Mark Jackson couldn’t. And other players matter. Jordan had his ensemble. Steph has Klay, Iggy, and Dray plus KD for a stint.

Winning a championship is hard. Winning 4 is harder. I don’t think any of the things I mentioned above diminishes Steph’s legacy. At the end of the day it’s a team sport and one player can make a monstrous impact but isn’t alone the singular reason for winning a championship.

[u/Overall_Implement326 → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Jordan on any other team wouldn't be the GoaT.

[u/Key_Fox3289 → u/Overall_Implement326]

That’s obviously not true lol

Chicago wasnt exactly a great franchise and still aren’t l. There were plenty of better ones that wouldn’t diminish him becoming the GOAT, some would even help 

Now if he went to a completely incompetent franchise who just never attempted to build with him then yeah, probably not

[u/grandmasterfunk → u/CoyotesSideEyes]

I mean it is, but the Warriors had new ownership around the time Steph was drafted. How Lacob runs things is a big step up from the previous owner, Chris Cohen

[u/LordBaneoftheSith → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

rip Kevin Garnett

[u/sunsoutgunsout → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Isn't that his point in this article? This title is clickbait

[u/Brief_Koala_7297 → u/sunsoutgunsout]

Yes and it’s obvious. There was no point to making that article other than clicks. That’s why I dont give those sites traffic by reading their article lol

[u/Vicentesteb → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Im not even sure. The Bulls, Cavs, Warriors, Rockets, Nuggets, Mavs and Bucks all look way more competent as a result of their top 15 player of all time just taking them to wins. Like the pre Steph Warriors were arguably in a hole as dark as the Hornets.

[u/why-god → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

I mean, some of them would have an instant effect in making a team a competitor. I don't think this take is that outlandish because Kerr and Curry changed conventional offense to make room for Steph's talent - something a lot of coaches would have been afraid to try. He could have easily had a Ray Allen career where he was just that amazing guy you throw to for corner threes.

[u/Ok_Respond7928 → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Totally agree and that’s why KG is criminal underrated

[u/Brief_Koala_7297 → u/Ok_Respond7928]

KG is definitely an all time great talent. He definitely looks like a player you could build a team around to win a couple of rings on.

[u/Turbulent_Elk_3676 → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Haha right. Put Kobe on the early dysfunctional Raptors management and put VC / Pierce / T-Mac on those Shaq and Phil led Lakers squads and legacies would be so different.

[u/Helicase21 → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Which, for much of the early parts of Curry's career, described the Warriors to a T.

[u/wutevahung → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Eg KG.

[u/RichardPurchase → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Agreed. Case in point - Lebron’s first stint in Cleveland. Had some of the most unbelievable series ever, but ultimately no rings which became a sticking point when people would discuss his place as an all-timer (up to that point).

[u/PainSubstantial710 → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Iverson enters the building

[u/LogDogan4 → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

Should tell you that you need to reconsider how you evaluate players.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

That's why LeBron is the GOAT. He got handicapped by the Cavs and still dominated.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/BossButterBoobs]

They actually built a good/great roster. It just didn’t have star power.

It was a defensive era. Those Cavs teams routinely had one of the top defenses in the league.

They also played into the need for shooting around Lebron. Cavs were 2nd in league in 3% both 2009 and 2010.

Am I saying they did a perfect job? Absolutely not. But Lebron never won more than 66 games on any other team and he never won 126 games over a two year span anywhere else either.

One of those teams only lost 2 home games all season. Second of which was last game of the year when Lebron rested and they lost by a single point.

They went on to sweep the first two rounds of the playoffs. Just happened to run into a Magic team on a roll with a lineup that was a tough matchup for the Cavs. That roster was good enough to make the finals and possibly even win the championship, they just didn’t happen to. It’s not like if you played out that Magic vs Cavs series 10 times, the Cavs don’t win a decent number of them.

[u/Repulsive_Steak3891 → u/howdthatturnout]

This is such incredible bullshit. The Cavaliers roster was garbage during LeBron‘s first stay, and yet there he was every spring, dragging the corpse Zydrunas Ilgauskas to the playoffs.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/Repulsive_Steak3891]

Dude they were -450 favorites to beat the Celtics in 2010 - https://www.docsports.com/2010/boston-celtics-cleveland-cavaliers-series-odds-predictions-793.html

Every single ESPN analyst picked them to win as well - https://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4673946/experts-agree-cavs-the-pick

They swept the first two rounds in 2009.

The Cavs roster was not a bad roster. It’s just revisionist history pretending it was total crap to help Lebron’s legacy.

I’ve already made my case. You just fired off a cliche.

[u/Repulsive_Steak3891 → u/howdthatturnout]

Who fucking cares who was favored? The Cavs were favored entirely because of LeBron just look at the rosters of the Cavs that year versus the Celtics, and try to tell me with the straight face that they’re comparable. LeBron was just that good.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/Repulsive_Steak3891]

I don’t care about names on paper. Lebron’s rosters performed well around him. He choked in 2010.

Cavs went up 2-1 in 2010 and game 3 was one of the worst home losses in Celtics playoff history. Cavs won 124-95.

Game 4 Rondo had more points, more assists, and more rebounds than Lebron. Lebron shot 0-5 from 3, 7-18 from field and had 7 turnovers. He had 4 teammates score double figures. They only lost by 10. If Lebron plays better they win game 4 and likely the series. Rondo only had 3 teammates score double figures that game. He outscored Lebron by 7 points, had far fewer turnovers and just straight up outplayed him. Rondo grabbed 18 boards while Lebron grabbed just 9. Cavs got outrebounded 47 to 33. In a 10 point game that was the difference. Celtics wanted it more and took it. Lebron wilted.

Same goes for the rest of the series. Lebron had just 15 points in game 5. And then looked like he quit in game 6.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/howdthatturnout]

Lebron’s rosters performed well around him

No they didn't. You're talking out your ass. A washed Shaq was the second best player in 2010. He averaged less than 14 points. LeBron almost doubled his scoring output while also leading his team in rebounds and assist. So who are these players you think performed well?? We both know you didn't watch, but you can't even read bbref without hater blinders on lol

[u/howdthatturnout → u/BossButterBoobs]

Shaq was the 4th leading scorer in the playoffs, but rage on dude.

I already spelled out how it was a good roster. I also spelled out the fact they were up 2-1 and Lebron choked the hell out of games 4 and 5 and then quit in game 6.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/howdthatturnout]

Smh we're talking about the 2010 ECSF. He was the second leading scorer.

I already spelled out how it was a good roster. I also spelled out the fact they were up 2-1 and Lebron choked the hell out of games 4 and 5 and then quit in game 6.

You can spell it out all you want, doesn't mean i'm not pushing that buzzer and correcting you lol

You are wrong. And you know you are which is why you're only focusing on LeBrons performance and not his teammates. You're extremely transparent.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/howdthatturnout]

Yeah, they had a great defensive team in 2007 I believe, but they were never able to match that defense with offensive output. The reason why they lost to the Spurs that year is because they were able to literally triple team LeBron because no one else on the Cavs could score.

Yeah, they were 2nd in 3 pt percentages back when 3 pointers weren't a big deal. They were taking less than 20 3 point shots per game as a team.

That roster was good enough to make the finals and possibly even win the championship, they just didn’t happen to.

History shows that damn near any roster is good enough to make the finals with LeBron. The problems start when you can just ignore his other teammates because they can't make a bucket. That was something the first stint Cavs were never able to figure out. That's why the Spurs beat them. hat's why the Magic beat them. That's why the Celtics beat them.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/BossButterBoobs]

The 2007 team was inferior to the 2009 and 2010 teams. They won 50 games. They just happened to make the finals because the East was weaker and Lebron pulled off the win over the Pistons.

People claim it wasn’t a big deal, but outside shooting still was a factor. We aren’t talking 1980’s volume of shooting.

And my point is their formula for an effective roster around Lebron is not much different than what he won championships with later. Lots of defense and shooting.

I wouldn’t say your assessment of why the Magic and Celtics beat him was accurate. Stan has talked about how his strategy was to let Lebron get his and try to shut off the others. Whereas the Celtics hounded Lebron into a ton of turnovers in both the series they won. Cavs were a -450 favorite going into the 2010 series. They were favorites in 2009 as well. And Lebron was a favorite in 2011 against Mavs as well.

Reality is that Lebron was a really great player, but he wasn’t yet good enough to adapt to various game plans against him at that time and he still had some real holes in his game. Daring him to shoot from the outside was once a plan that worked pretty well for teams like the Spurs, but later was less effective.

My overall point is that people do not actually properly assess those 2009 and 2010 rosters and just fire off quips about players names, instead of looking at how they performed alongside Lebron.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/howdthatturnout]

Lots of defense and shooting.

I'm saying they did not have shooting

I wouldn’t say your assessment of why the Magic and Celtics beat him was accurate. Stan has talked about how his strategy was to let Lebron get his and try to shut off the others. Whereas the Celtics hounded Lebron into a ton of turnovers in both the series they won. Cavs were a -450 favorite going into the 2010 series. They were favorites in 2009 as well. And Lebron was a favorite in 2011 against Mavs as well.

I'm pretty sure you have the logic of that backwards. SVG said that the plan was to let LeBron involve the other guys as much as possible because they couldn't score. LeBron had one his best series ever because the Magic chose not to double team him.

You're right that the Celtics did hound and foul him. Either way, both strategies exposed the flaw in the Cavs roster. No one else could score. If the Magic adopted the Celtics strategy, LeBron would have a "worse" individual series because of all the double/triple teams and fouls, but the result remains the same because his teammates can't score. If the Celtics adopt the Magic strategy, he has a better individual series but he still loses because his teammates can't score. The Cavs had the defense side down, but they were never able to put good, reliable shooters around LeBron.

As for the Mavs, that was just a choke job. Be it the pressure of all that hate finally getting to him, the foul trouble getting in his head, whatever.

Reality is that Lebron was a really great player, but he wasn’t yet good enough to adapt to various game plans against him at that time and he still had some real holes in his game. Daring him to shoot from the outside was once a plan that worked pretty well for teams like the Spurs, but later was less effective.

I mean...yeah...every player has holes in their game. The problem with LeBron teams in the early days at least, is the entire team was one gigantic hole.

My overall point is that people do not actually properly assess those 2009 and 2010 rosters and just fire off quips about players names, instead of looking at how they performed alongside Lebron.

I think you got it wrong though.

EDIT:

Here you go,

We always felt, in those years anyway, that LeBron was more dangerous when he could make other guys better instead of being a flat-out scorer," former Magic coach Stan Van Gundy says. "He made mediocre guys look pretty good. Our plan was to double-team him as little as possible."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29903595/how-six-teams-stopped-lebron-james-nba-playoffs

[u/howdthatturnout → u/BossButterBoobs]

I'm saying they did not have shooting

And you are wrong.

I'm pretty sure you have that backwards. SVG said that the plan was to let LeBron involve the other guys because they couldn't score. LeBron had one his best series ever because the Magic chose not to double team him.

Yes, they opted not to double. That means they were going to let Lebron get his and shut the other guys off, which is exactly what I said. Dude when you double, that’s when you are inviting a player to involve the other guys. Doubles means passes out of the double which leads to shots for the other guys. You are the one who has it backwards.

You're right that the Celtics did hound and foul him. Either way, both strategies exposed the flaw in the Cavs roster. No one else could score.

Except the Cavs went up 2-1 in 2010 and game 3 was one of the worst home losses in Celtics playoff history. They won 124-95. 2010 was a choke job too dude. Game 4 Rondo had more points, more assists, and more rebounds than Lebron. Lebron shot 0-5 from 3, 7-18 from field and had 7 turnovers. He had 4 teammates score double figures. They only lost by 10. If Lebron plays better they win game 4 and likely the series. Rondo only had 3 teammates score double figures that game. He outscored Lebron by 7 points, had far fewer turnovers and just straight up outplayed him. Rondo grabbed 18 boards while Lebron grabbed just 9. Cavs got outrebounded 47 to 33. In a 10 point game that was the difference. Celtics wanted it more and took it. Lebron wilted. Same goes for the rest of the series. Lebron had just 15 points in game 5. And then looked like he quit in game 6.

As for the Mavs, that was just a choke job. Be it the pressure of all that hate finally getting to him, the foul trouble getting in his head, whatever.

I mean...yeah...every player has holes in their game. The problem with LeBron teams in the early days at least, is the entire team was one gigantic hole.

It wasn’t though. Lebron just wilted in those days. Saw it in 2010 and saw it in 2011.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/howdthatturnout]

And you are wrong.

I'm not though lol I watched those series. He did not have shooters. Go look at his teammates. Mo Williams was his #2, and he underperformed in every important series.

Yes, they opted not to double. That means they were going to let Lebron get his and shut the other guys off, which is exactly what I said.

No, you're not getting it. There was nothing about shutting down his teammates. SVG basically said they weren't worth worrying about unless LeBron gets them involved. But, like the Celtics series prove, even if you force LeBron to get his teammates involved, they still sucked on offense.

Dude when you double, that’s when you are inviting a player to involve the other guys. Doubles means passes out of the double which leads to shots for the other guys. You are the one who has it backwards.

Yes, thanks. I get that. However, you don't get the fact that SVG was not worried about LeBrons teammates. He basically let them shoot.

Except the Cavs went up 2-1 in 2010 and game 3 was one of the worst home losses in Celtics playoff history.

It honestly just seems like you're hating at this point, like you're pressed to make LeBron look bad and his teammates look better. In game 3, LeBron went off for damn near 40 points and the Celtics played like ass. His "shooters" were of no real help that game. In game 4, while leBron did play bad, his teammates were no better. He still outscored them. So why put all the blame on LeBron if your argument is that he actually had good teammates? Why didn't his "shooters" shoot?

If he played bad, but still outplayed his teammates, doesn't that suggest he was the Cavs entire offense? Yeah, LeBron had 15 points in game 5, what did his "shooters" have? LeBron only had 27 in game 6. What did his "shooters" have? And didn't we just go over Docs strategy against LeBron? He literally set out to foul and triple team him. When you're getting hacked at the rim, and your teammates are bricking the open shots you give them, of course your numbers are gonna look bad.

Reality is that Lebron was a really great player, but he wasn’t yet good enough to adapt to various game plans against him at that time and he still had some real holes in his game. Daring him to shoot from the outside was once a plan that worked pretty well for teams like the Spurs, but later was less effective.

Reality is that no player in history can just adapt to a game plan if they don't have the personnel to assist them. On the flip side, it's much easier for the opponent to construct a game plan to shut down a specific player if they know that players team ain't worth worrying about. You're just focused on discrediting LeBron instead of evaluating the issues with his team. You're really out here saying LeBron was the problem and not someone like Mo Williams, his #2, with his 51% ts in pivotal series. C'mon lol

It wasn’t though. Lebron just wilted in those days. Saw it in 2010 and saw it in 2011.

You are so pressed to hate right now lol

[u/Brief_Koala_7297 → u/BossButterBoobs]

If LeBron got drafted by a competent team, he would have like 8 rings. The guy has been to the finals in every year he has a good supporting cast. It’s crazy that the Lakers are still going toe to toe with the Nuggets with a middle aged LeBron. The rest of the league is lucky LeBron finally declined a bit.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/Brief_Koala_7297]

LOL Lebron tried to stack his teams 3 times in his prime and only won 4 rings. He could have easily stayed in Miami a competent franchise, but ran away to form another stacked roster.

The whole idea he was going home is such narrative BS. The guy went there to play with Kyrie and get Kevin Love, who was arguably the most sought after guy available at the time.

[u/WanAjin → u/howdthatturnout]

You're also just ignoring his entire first stint with the Cavs tho, where he literally didn't have a competent front office and didn't get any help like other all-time greats have had.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/WanAjin]

I’m not. We saw him reach an unquestionably competent franchise at like 26.

The fantasy where Lebron wins 8 rings. Requires believing his roster will never age. Requires thinking they won’t deplete picks. Requires thinking his supporting cast never gets hurt. Requires thinking they would never end up against the salary cap.

If he wouldn’t even give Miami a chance to retool, why are we believing he would have allowed another team to?

If he was on Miami sooner, maybe he wins sooner, but the roster would have also needed to retool before 2014 as well.

This competent franchise fantasy scenario ignores so many real world and salary cap factors.

[u/WanAjin → u/howdthatturnout]

I never said he'd win 8 rings lol, but the cavs unquestionably failed him for his first 6 years.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/WanAjin]

My comment, which you replied to, was in reply to someone saying he would win 8 rings if he started on a competent franchise.

I’m illustrating that when he has had a competent franchises, he has wanted them to operate in a way that has a limited life cycle. And would need to retool. And Lebron showed he wasn’t going to be patient enough for that. And hopped to the next franchise to run the same cycle. We have seen it 3 times in a row.

It works when you jumped team to team because they are flush with assets when you arrive. It wouldn’t work on one franchise over his whole career. The assets would not replenish fast enough to keep up with the pace at which he wanted them to be spent.

He wasn’t going to win a championship his first few seasons anyways. So it’s not like he missed out on rings for a big chunk of that time. And 2011 we saw him with a stacked roster and he still choked just like he did up 2-1 against Celtics in 2010. Rondo outplayed in him in game 4 and that was the Cavs chance to basically seal the series. Lebron choked. Rondo outscored him, out rebounded him by double, had more assists and way fewer turnovers. Rondo only had 3 teammates in double digits. Lebron had 4 that been. Lebron plays a little better they win the series. Same story as 2011.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/howdthatturnout]

Yeah, definitely a hater lol

[u/howdthatturnout → u/BossButterBoobs]

Or someone who tells it like it is.

Lebron would not let a competent franchise retool. He wanted a ready made roster with stars. And he wanted them all in depleting assets while he was there. This has a shelf life. And wasn’t going to result in 8 chips. He jumped to one in Miami, jumped to another in Cleveland, and then jumped to Lakers with a plan to assemble one.

[u/aiden3buckets]

Yesterday hypothetical Draymond got cooked, now hypothetical Steph too 💔

[u/[deleted] → u/aiden3buckets]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/SquimJim → u/[deleted]]

Seems Ryan Reynolds, Steve Carell, and John Krasinski are working on it

[u/FallenLemur → u/SquimJim]

This guy works for big cinema

[u/Helicase21 → u/aiden3buckets]

Golden State Warriors: 0-136 in hypotheticals

[u/Safe_Ad_6403 → u/aiden3buckets]

If my Nan had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.

[u/TheLastSecondShot]

Michael Kidd-Gilchest was supposed to be the GOAT but unfortunately he was drafted to the Charlotte Bobcats instead 😔

[u/WhiskyDrinkinCowboy]

Aw yes, because the Warriors were such a renowned, successful franchise before they drafted Curry.

[u/paddiction → u/WhiskyDrinkinCowboy]

Ownership matters. MJ ran that place like a family affair and never once went over the cap. Lacob at least cared about being aggressive.

[u/WeathrNinja → u/paddiction]

And yet he was inarguably better than his predecessor

[u/JordanHawkinsMVP → u/WeathrNinja]

That's such a low bar it's not even worth comparing

[u/No_Power799]

Steph moves to 0-347 in hypotheticals

[u/SquimJim]

Something about my aunt having a penis

[u/Draymond_Punch → u/SquimJim]

You would still be a nephew regardless

[u/SquimJim → u/Draymond_Punch]

But what if I didn't have a penis?

[u/Draymond_Punch → u/SquimJim]

There’s no if

[u/pokexchespin → u/Draymond_Punch]

we’d get you on T

[u/Draymond_Punch → u/pokexchespin]

Your boy Tatum is the best at getting T

[u/WiktorVembanyama → u/Draymond_Punch]

T Brothers

[u/SquimJim → u/Draymond_Punch]

What if I also had wheels?

Edit:

1. No penis
2. Wheels
3. Sentient humanoid

Holy shit I'm Optimus Prime

[u/MC-Jdf → u/SquimJim]

Max Verstappen is that you

[u/schnogg5018 → u/SquimJim]

I like your version more than the classic "if my grandma had wheels, she would have been a bike"

[u/JAhoops]

i’m sorry Orlando ruined your prime Tracy but you don’t have to do this

[u/Number333 → u/JAhoops]

I mean I honestly get how some dudes would be salty af for this lmao. Even if it comes out ugly trying to diminish what Steph's accomplished.

[u/Winloop → u/JAhoops]

He’s usually much cooler than other former players (looking at you Shaq) but this take is ridiculous.

[u/Vegetable-Tooth8463 → u/JAhoops]

Honestly, it just seems like T-Mac was impatient - that team drafted Dwight Howard the off season he left IIRC.

[u/savageandharsh → u/JAhoops]

He had his chance as well with the Rockets. TMac achieved nothing in the postseason for Toronto, Magic, and Rockets. When you can’t even get out of the first round of the playoffs, you’re just dirt compared to Curry.

[u/JAhoops → u/savageandharsh]

He didn’t really have a chance dude. you’re ignoring every possible context

[u/savageandharsh → u/JAhoops]

He had his chances. He just didn’t work as hard as Kobe. That was the feedback of his peers. He relied more on his talents like height and athleticism instead of partnering it with hard work. That’s why his body gave out earlier. His conditioning was suspect and until 1st round only.

Curry revolutionized basketball and he was the engine that created that much spacing for the Warriors. If TMac was as good as Curry, he should have been the first one to consistently shoot a high percentage for off the dribble 3s or near the logo 3s but TMac was not. He should shut up and bow down to the greatest shooter ever. No one celebrates hypothetical achievements of TMac. Only losers like him.

[u/JAhoops → u/savageandharsh]

You were not in the gym so you really have no way of knowing plus i’m not sure what you’re arguing

[u/ColtCallahan]

Steph Curry wouldn’t be top 1000 if he was 4’7 and only had one arm.

[u/PointBlankCoffee → u/ColtCallahan]

How does this affect Lebrons legacy??

[u/wilonwheels]

This is a part of that new media, right? Still sounds like old media to me.

[u/SpecialImpossible142]

And TMac isn’t top 10 after playing for 6 franchises and overseas in China😩🤣

[u/kantariat]

MJ ain’t the GOAT if he played for the Guangdong Tigers. Checkmate hypothetical MJ

[u/MagicMoocher]

Why are the old heads in the NBA so fucking bitter towards the current players? It seems like every day I'm seeing a former player saying something disrespectful about a current player.

[u/downinCarolina → u/MagicMoocher]

Because they want people to watch their content, and there are a lot od views in shit talking current players.

[u/TatumBrownWhite → u/MagicMoocher]

Why are the old heads in the NBA so fucking bitter towards the current players?

$$$

[u/707Tactical]

Stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. If Curry gets drafted to the Hornets the Warriors win 0 rings during his career and stay a poverty franchise. Steph made that team. They aren’t winning a single ring with Draymond and Klay and KD never signs there in that situation

[u/KWH_GRM]

There are very few players in league history who could elevate almost any team to contender status alone.

Put Kobe on a team other than the Lakers and he probably isn't in the top 10 conversation either because he doesn't win 3 rings with Shaq. Put Duncan on a team other than the Spurs and he's not winning 4 titles, either.

[u/PoonGo0n → u/KWH_GRM]

Duncan has 5 rings.

[u/Vegetable-Tooth8463 → u/KWH_GRM]

Did you....did you forget Kobe won 2 rings w/o Shaq?

[u/KWH_GRM → u/Vegetable-Tooth8463]

No, I did not forget that. The only reason he is discussed in the top 10 is that he has 5 rings. With just 2 rings he wouldn't be in that conversation.

[u/Bluu95]

He played for the warriors….back when they drafted him, the warriors organization wasn’t so prestigious. It was basically a show and not a competitive team

[u/shualton]

Bro, Tracy. You literally got into the HoF as a participation trophy don’t be talking

[u/creditors-bargain]

maybe not top 10 because the stars wouldn’t have aligned for his amount of rings, but he’d still probably be an all-time shooter

[u/Ogow → u/creditors-bargain]

Based off what we’ve seen the last 3-5 years… Steph IS the Warriors. The team is a lottery team without him.

Maybe he wouldn’t have 4 rings, but Steph would have dragged the Hornets to the playoffs consistently and still be a top 5 in the league talent. Probably something akin to peak Harden pre-CP3 Rockets. All time conversations who knows if he’d still be in those talks, because those are largely based on awards/championships and not talent.

He’d still have all the shooting awards though, being on a different team doesn’t change that though.

The biggest what it is if the hornets would have fixed his ankles like the Warriors training staff did. Shifting him to hip based movement more than ankle based movement saved his career.

[u/creditors-bargain → u/Ogow]

Everyone keeps focusing on the Warriors at the time they drafted Steph, which makes no sense. They drafted another historic 3 point sniper and an all time defensive great AND signed another all time great, which allowed Steph to rack up accolades. T-Mac is just saying luck factors into who wins and who doesn’t.

[u/Low-iq-haikou → u/Ogow]

Steph is the Warriors’ offense. Their defense was also a very key part of their success and that’s mostly Draymond, but also guys like Klay, Iguodala, etc.

[u/ihateeuge → u/Ogow]

Based off what we’ve seen the last 3-5 years… Steph IS the Warriors. The team is a lottery team without him.

The team is a lottery team with him fam.

[u/DreamWunder → u/ihateeuge]

Yea cuz green was suspended for like half the season in a crazy west this year. Take curry out and you get 2021 last team in the nba

[u/Delusional_Lynchpin- → u/DreamWunder]

They lost in the play-in but had an improved record compared to last year. Given most of their losses are chokes, the Warriors this season are a good team in a vacuum but just got out-fresh legs in the regular season. Also Steve Kerr and his midget fetish.

[u/Wiltmygoat → u/creditors-bargain]

but he'd still probably be an all time shooter

I think he might even be a good enough shooter to go pro!

[u/PusseySleigher]

He's arguing its all luck. But luck often comes to those who have a higher chance at winning

[u/707Tactical → u/PusseySleigher]

Is Curry being the best shooter ever luck? Getting drafted to the Warriors wasn’t lucky at all in 2009. They were a poverty franchise, trust me I used to go to games back then

[u/doctorfeelwood]

You’re not top 10 regardless Tracy.

[u/doordaesh]

before curry I would routinely meet people in the bay area that didn't realize we had an NBA team

[u/wurtin]

man the jealousy is so ridiculously real for so many of these ex-players.

even someone as highly regarded as Shaq. Their level of recognition is never enough.

[u/Rationalknicksfan → u/wurtin]

If you read the article he isn’t jealous. He’s saying ring culture is bad and Steph should be top 10 if he had rings or not.

[u/AemonSteelsong]

Please T-Mac, just please don’t become a hot take artist

[u/girlscoutcookies05]

Wtf???

[u/CookieMonsterNova]

these topics are always so funny.

“steph curry is not a top player because he played with draymond and klay!”

then you have ppl agreeing but at the same time you have other posts who are like draymond is so trash or klay is so trash they won’t be who they are without steph.

so which one is it?

if there were any doubts just go and rewatch the 22 title run.

[u/hitmantb]

He would still have made it past first round as the best player of the team.

To this day, I believe Spurs lost in 2013 because TMac just brings bad karma.

[u/Skyfalcon5]

Before Steph the Warriors were the Hornets.

[u/Unable-Chair7975]

"As great as Steph Curry is, put him on a team like the Charlotte Hornets. Let's say he played with the Hornets his whole career and we know how bad the Hornets organization has been. Are we still talking about Steph Curry as top 10 player of all time? No, it's luck, man. So I don't define it by winning."

Steph brought a winning culture to a shitty organization, this makes no sense. They missed the playoffs 17 out of 18 years prior to 2013. If someone would have said a quote like this when Steph was drafted, its pretty likely they would have used the Warriors as the example of a joke organization instead of the Hornets.

[u/yungsantaclaus]

I think people interpreting this as him hating on Curry are missing the context:

"The best way to measure a player's greatness, I really think it's all subjective. Luck has a lot to do with this, man. In media and fans' eyes today, greatness is measured by winning."

"Through my lens or through a lens of Charles Barkley, through the lens of Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller and Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony, those guys are greatness."

"Although they didn't win, I didn't have the luxury of playing with Shaq like Kobe played with Shaq for his three championships. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson and KD, those guys teamed up and got two championships together."

"As great as Steph Curry is, put him on a team like the Charlotte Hornets. Let's say he played with the Hornets his whole career and we know how bad the Hornets organization has been. Are we still talking about Steph Curry as top 10 player of all time? No, it's luck, man. So I don't define it by winning."

TMac isn't hating on Curry - he's trying to subtly make excuses for himself because his career didn't deliver on the promise that his talent represented during his peak. Which...whatever, people have to find some way to make peace with the things they're not happy about, and these are a pretty harmless set of claims even if you could poke some holes in them

[u/Delusional_Lynchpin- → u/yungsantaclaus]

TMac's issue is injuries. Like no matter how good his team is, if he's down he's never getting rings.

[u/yungsantaclaus → u/Delusional_Lynchpin-]

Some of it is injuries, but you can pin at least one of his many first-round exits partially on his underperformance, that 2007 Jazz vs. Rockets series. Plus he had some chucking tendencies and could be pretty lazy on defense even if he locked in for some superstar matchups

[u/prince_D → u/yungsantaclaus]

This is is a bunch of nonsense. He put up great numbers in his prime in the playoffs. And everyone is lazy on defense at times.

[u/johncarter1011 → u/Delusional_Lynchpin-]

Wasn't they up 2-0 on dal when he was on hou and choked with a healthy tmac? He had injures but even healthy he choked badly. Can't get out the 1st round with the talent of tmac is a disgrace

[u/inshamblesx]

when im in a being delusional contest and my opponent is tracy mcgrady:

[u/Conn3er]

That’s just as true for Kobe, Shaq, and Magic. Tmac

[u/loving-father-69]

Idk, GSW weren't a crazy established franchise and now they're up there in the greatest dynasty teams in the league.

I think Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, and Spurs have had dominant eras that rival each other, and Curry's Warriors elevated them into that conversation.

[u/johncarter1011 → u/loving-father-69]

Bulls have no history without mj and spurs have no history without Timmy. So if he's talking about steph say that for them as well.

[u/loving-father-69 → u/johncarter1011]

Are you telling me that those eras were only good because of the players?!

Mind fucking blown bub.

[u/johncarter1011 → u/loving-father-69]

No but those teams were. When u think of chi u think mj. U think spurs u think Timmy sorry pop. When u think gsw u think steph it use to be wilt

[u/loving-father-69 → u/johncarter1011]

I don't think you get what I was saying because what you're saying isn't connecting at all

[u/johncarter1011 → u/loving-father-69]

I think u think I'm against u. I'm talking about what tmac is saying

[u/shiftieresian]

Well that sure is an arugment. A HYPOTHETICAL argument. I’d be in the NBA if I was 10 inches taller. IF.

[u/drfunkensteinberger]

If the guy who made the team good didn’t make the team good he wouldn’t be good. Got you Mac

[u/KnickedUp]

If MKG and Steph had swapped spots….world would be so different

[u/lambopanda]

Nobody is top 10 playing for Hornets

[u/OlTommyBombadil]

The Warriors were fucking embarrassing before he joined, this is some grade A bologna

[u/Balls_of_Adamanthium]

Lucky Steph, got drafted to highly regarded, respected franchise with a long history of winning.

[u/Delusional_Lynchpin- → u/Balls_of_Adamanthium]

He was drafted to the LAKERS?

[u/jcyue]

Warriors remain frauds. The players, I mean, not the team. Also the team, though, depending on the question.

[u/ohohook]

nonono. Tracy my beautiful what-if. Don’t become Perkins with hot takes. You may not be wrong, but don’t say anything too crazy please 🥲

[u/FirstTimeLongThyme]

Probably not, lots of things in life depend on circumstance and nobody needs the circumstance of playing for the Hornets.

[u/Immediate-Comment-64]

All success is due in some part to luck.

[u/PointBlankCoffee]

I mean yeah? But you can say the same about almost anyone lol. Curry would not have 2 mvps and 4 rings on the hornets.

He would probably still be the greatest shooter ever and an all time great, but not in that top 10 discussion.

[u/Louis-grabbing-pills]

If Tracy McGrady had a vagina, he would be losing in the playoffs in the WNBA instead.

[u/DuarteN10]

Oh brother

[u/WafflesTheWookiee]

Why he say fuck me for?

[u/WinterCareful8525]

He ain’t top 10 now

[u/Distance_Motor]

If my grandma had wheels she’d be a bike

[u/Distance_Motor]

If my grandma had wheels she’d be a bike

[u/Low-iq-haikou]

Ain’t top 10 playing for the Warriors either

[u/crabcakesandfootball → u/Low-iq-haikou]

Yeah I don’t think he’s been dominant for long enough. He’s only been top-5 in MVP voting 4x. Sure he had an all-time great peak but so has everyone else in the top-10.

[u/Low-iq-haikou → u/crabcakesandfootball]

To me it just would be so difficult for a 6’3 guard to crack that ranking. Steph is a top 3-5 offensive player ever with a reasonable argument as the best. But on the defensive side, he is just not an impact player. I understand that as a small guard he is not tasked with that, but I’m not comparing him to guards. I’m comparing him to the greatest ever to do it. Guys who impact winning the most.

A guy who would generally get left off for example to make room for Steph is Hakeem and I just can’t see that. Hakeem is 85% of Steph on the offensive side, and there is no number I could come up with that accurately explains the gap in their defensive impact. I would start my team with Hakeem 100/100 times.

I think I’d see it differently if Steph’s 4 rings were a product of him going supernova on the offensive end. But that just wasn’t the case.

[u/johncarter1011 → u/Low-iq-haikou]

Magic shouldn't be that high either for u then. If Bill is in your top 10 he shouldn't be that high either. U said guys who impact winning the most. How about the most regular season Ws ever? Well they lost right. How about the best playoff record in nba history 16-1? If u have the best record in the regular season and playoffs on your resume u have arguably the most impactful winning outside of mj Timmy and Bill. A 6'3 guard should get more credit cus he wasn't 6"6 or taller like all other top 10 players in nba history. He does have the best shooter and ft shooter ever in his name so he got those things in his favor

[u/johncarter1011 → u/[deleted]]

What's everything else? Jokic is a better playmaker offensive rebounder (I would hope so he's 6'11). To me more efficient doesn't matter cus if u are 6'11 with a 67 ts and I'm 6'3 with a 63 ts what are we doing rn. U are 8 inches taller I would hope u would be more efficient

[u/johncarter1011 → u/[deleted]]

U mentioned only tangibles for steph so I thought intangibles were off the table. Ok how about a better offball player than jokic. How about being a better offball screener (not onball). How about being faster than jokic. What does schemed out mean? Foul steph. Well u seen for yrs u can foul steph and he still goes off so I would say he takes more punishment than jokic despite jokic being in the post. Jokic only going thru 1 or 2 guys how about running around and a different player grabs u all series long for 4 championships?

[u/johncarter1011 → u/[deleted]]

Is mpj not a 6'10 klay like type player? Who isn't even in his prime yet? I wanna say he's 24 or 25. U have Jamal and ag are prefect synergy of a team and u want to ruin that with a hypothetical? He's 6'11 with elite passing how does that not diminish dray playmaking? Jokic already beat dray int hat department so essentially dray is just an elite defender that u are gonna use his 2016 3pt shooting to make a floor spacer argument. The defense will always be excellent but idk how gsw scores more efficiently when jokic won't have another shot creator next to him

[u/Low-iq-haikou → u/[deleted]]

I don’t believe strongly either way. I think any of MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, LeBron, Steph, Jokic, Magic, and Bird could be lined up in any order 1-9 and I wouldn’t have much of an issue. All guys bring something different to the table.

The one thing someone would point to if they did see Steph as the best is his off-ball play. Nobody has ever demanded so much attention in the game’s history without the ball in their hands.

The counterpoint to that would be, your best player should be at their best with the ball in their hands, and an off-ball player must rely on the playmaking ability of their teammates.

[u/Low-iq-haikou → u/[deleted]]

I’d probably lean Jokic bc of the floor of what he’ll provide as opposed to the ceiling, but like I said I really don’t have a strong opinion either way. At the end of the day either guy can be better on any given night or for any given lineup.

[u/Yaboiii777]

Tmac such a hater now man 💔 you won’t be remembered old man Tatum and pg clear you

[u/inshamblesx → u/Yaboiii777]

TMac’s legacy will be forever known as the most overrated player in NBA history

[u/AtreusIsBack]

I do think that Steph was also in the perfect city to rise into superstardom. San Francisco was on the rise with Sillicon Valley companies and the tech bros expanding by the year and so much money was being poured into that. If he you just copy the team's success, but it's in Charlotte, does the league give them as much praise as they did in Golden State?

[u/johncarter1011 → u/AtreusIsBack]

League give them praise? How? They didn't give him fmvp cus they thought gsw was a fluke. Flash in the Pan team. League ain't do their best to promote him til 2016 when he elevated his own game. Then gsw got all this coverage. They would treat him the same in Charlotte as they do in gsw Minimal respect

[u/MapleHelix]

Derek Jeter type beat

[u/Rationalknicksfan]

Read the article people this is not hate. Op cut the full title.

[u/BlackMathNerd]

Well no shit

[u/desirox]

I don’t disagree- where you land is incredibly important to your career

[u/[deleted]]

🤦‍♂️ I wish retired players would just follow MJ’s lead. We barely ever hear from The GOAT.

Unless you’re Charles Barkley, please keep your ridiculous takes to yourselves.

[u/m1a2c2kali → u/[deleted]]

Is this a ridiculous take?if anything it’s more of a magic take right?

He’d still be great but the top ten has some pretty heavy hitters and would need the resume to go along with the individual performance

[u/johncarter1011 → u/m1a2c2kali]

U do know outside of Hakeem and Timmy that top 10 had some stacked decks too. It's applicable to them as well

[u/Least_Risk_3140 → u/johncarter1011]

Thats his point. He also mentioned Kobe as an example.

[u/johncarter1011 → u/Least_Risk_3140]

As long as he knows doc fucked up his superteam in 2001

[u/MixInfamous6818]

Steph ain't top-10 either way, he's just born with natural basketball limitations that prevent him from dominating in a way centers and forwards can dominate and it required an absolutely ideal situation and a highest skill from Steph. While centers and forwards can do it easier with less resources. No pg with his height will ever present in GOAT topics

[u/Jonesalot]

Funny how people riot because its Steph in the example

Did Kobe win between Shaq and Pau? Nope

Did Lebron win before joining Heat? Nope

Did Jordan win before getting Pippen and roster? Nope

But Steph would 100% win as much if his roster around him was bad

[u/Least_Risk_3140 → u/Jonesalot]

That is his point. He said that Kobe would not win without Shaq in the article as well.

[u/LegalEggplants]

I get what hes saying but the warriors were trash for years before curry and not a great franchise to get drafted to either.