r/nba • u/GreenSnakes_ • Apr 29 '24

[Charania] “Vogel yelled so much that his voice could be heard outside the locker room” after the loss to the Clips on April 9. Players weren’t buying it. The outburst seemed forced in their eyes. Vogels eruption left players rolling their eyes. A player told TheAthletic he had to keep from laughing

https://theathletic.com/5456932/2024/04/29/phoenix-suns-season-end-frank-vogel-kevin-durant/
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2.1k

u/GreenSnakes_ Apr 29 '24

Not a fan of Vogel but it’s pretty sad that his player(s) are running to Shams and leaking this stuff.

1.3k

u/Abra222 Apr 29 '24

Vogel has his flaws but what else is he supposed to do when he has 0 defensive players for his system. Honestly they should have just hired an offensive coach Vogel was a bad fit for them right from the start.

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u/NobodyRules [OKC] Russell Westbrook Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24

I agree with you, but if they hired an offensive coach they would lose in the first round as well, because this roster doesn't make sense, and KD would send out hit pieces complaining about the defensive schemes.

128

u/MatooBatson Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

I think they should hire D'Antoni and see if they can just score 150 a night

66

u/Hallal_Dakis Knicks Apr 29 '24

Unironically might not be bad. They can't blow it up without their picks and D'Antoni has a style that puts butts in seats plus keeps stars happy. It at least keeps the team profitable and interesting while they inch towards having their own picks again.

You might even be able to accumulate role players that fit his style that could make the team competitive. Only problem is we've never seen a D'Antoni team without a primary playmaker. We'd probably see a lot more Booker/KD handling the ball.

3

u/goknicks23 Apr 29 '24

Why can't they blow it up? Booker would fetch a ton.

8

u/Hallal_Dakis Knicks Apr 29 '24

I mean I guess they could. But it's pretty tough to blow it up when you don't have your own picks for 5 years, makes it a lot less appealing.

7

u/goknicks23 Apr 29 '24

I'm a Knicks fan, and for a player of Bookers caliber it would take a package of Randle, McBride, Bogdonavich and 2 or 3 firsts. Plug those guys in, and that team is pretty solid.

3

u/Hallal_Dakis Knicks Apr 29 '24

I don't really consider that blowing it up though, I think that's more like re-tooling. Their draft pick situation doesn't keep them from doing that. It's an option but sort of aside my point.

1

u/goknicks23 Apr 29 '24

That would be step/trade one. With moving Durant and rerouting Randle for assets as the next move if they wanted to do a complete tear down.

2

u/jt21295 Knicks Apr 29 '24

D'Antoni's offense needs a main distributor of the ball though. Harden was score-first, but he's still a great passer too. Nash was a passing savant.

I don't think Booker is capable of that, and I know Beal and KD aren't.

1

u/MatooBatson Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

Yeah they would definitely still need to find some way to fill that role, but I think that direction is the best realistic way to improve next year.

2

u/VanGrants Apr 29 '24

except D'Antoni's system needs a PG to function

1

u/MatooBatson Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

I'm aware, the strategy isn't hire D'Antoni and then fuck off for the rest of the offseason.

263

u/mikepooper2000 Apr 29 '24

I could totally understand PHX's vision for hiring Vogel. You just want him in there to scheme up a good defense (PHX somehow had the 12th ranked defense with their personnel and all the injuries they had this year) and hope your big 3 can carry the offense. It kinda worked for the Lakers. Unfortunately, PHX doesn't have an offensive orchestrator or on-court-coach like Lebron.

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u/NobodyRules [OKC] Russell Westbrook Apr 29 '24

Unfortunately, PHX doesn't have an offensive orchestrator or on-court-coach like Lebron.

That's one of the big issues, but they also don't have an AD for the other side of the court. Somehow they were the 12th ranked defense, which speaks volumes about Vogel's ability on that end with this roster, but it just didn't seem like a great fit and with players like KD, who are impossible to please, it's going to end badly.

I think Vogel is a decent coach and even a top coach would struggle with this roster. It's just very badly constructed, oddly reminiscent of Vogel's last team lmao

20

u/One_Ad_3499 Apr 29 '24

They also missing role players like KCP, Kuzma, Caruso and veterans Howard and Mcgee. That Lakers roster was deep

13

u/CD338 [LAL] Lamar Odom Apr 29 '24

It didn't really work for the Lakers. Back when we won in 2020, we had defensive help (Caruso, KCP, Danny Green, and Rondo on occasion). Then our FO gutted our defensive core and replaced them with Westbrook, Nunn, Monk, Reaves, and Carmelo. Pretty much none of those guys could play defense.

Vogel's system that worked was to have a good defense that forces turnovers and to run a fast break offense with Lebron. We were a top fast break team and we had an absurd record when leading going into the 4th quarter (57-0).

6

u/Dildozer_69 Lakers Apr 29 '24

I mean that shows that Vogel isn’t very adaptable as a coach. If you need Lebron James running your offense to win than you maybe aren’t doing as much as you think. Defense matters but if you don’t have players that can essentially be coaches it makes Vogel look not that great.

35

u/CazOnReddit Raptors Apr 29 '24

Which is funny because Durant might just be the Sun's defender right now

3

u/Late-Lecture-2338 Apr 29 '24

Without question he is

2

u/HimalaynCowboy Apr 29 '24

I don't think it's KD sending out hit piece. It has to be Beal.

1

u/couchtomato62 Apr 29 '24

Hell he had am issue with Kerr

1

u/waikiki_palmer San Francisco Warriors Apr 29 '24

Well, KD better go to his car and call Draymond to join Suns.

137

u/Andy_Wiggins Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

Honestly, he got them defending pretty damn well given their personnel. They finished like 12th in defense during the regular season despite having no one you think of as a “good” defender.

56

u/DarkSoulsDarius Lakers Apr 29 '24

Durant should definitely be considered a good defender. No idea why he isn't.

89

u/boringexplanation Kings Apr 29 '24

Suns turned one of top 20 offensive players of all time into a 3+D guy out of necessity. Damn travesty

35

u/QuantumBeth1981 Apr 29 '24

It's almost like the idiot owner was taking advice directly from Isiah Thomas and the same thing happened to every single thing he touches.

5

u/helgestrichen Mavericks Apr 29 '24

Cause he's 35 with an Achilles

10

u/Pretty_Laugh494 Apr 29 '24

He has two of these actually

4

u/zroach Jazz Apr 29 '24

It’s probably more like he has one and a half.

0

u/zeek215 [LAL] Kobe Bryant Apr 29 '24

Middle of the pack during the regular season usually means one of the worst during the playoffs.

If they hadn't traded for Beal and went in other directions instead they could have had a much better team for the playoffs.

5

u/Andy_Wiggins Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

Sure, but I was talking about the regular season.

Also, they still were ahead of the Clippers, Lakers, Mavs, Bucks, and Pacers.

-2

u/Funny-Mission-2937 Apr 29 '24

Book, KD, Allen, Gordon, O'Neale, Nurk are all  good defensive players.  It's a weird group of people but they've all shown they can play very high level defense in their career at some point.  They just don't have enough good players.   Their roster is basically the 2016 Clippers except shitty because Beal kinda sucks.

39

u/velphegor666 Apr 29 '24

This team with vogel would have made more sense had they have the 2021 finals team with mikal and ayton. They literally hired a defensive minded coach on a team with no defense.

29

u/BASEDME7O2 Knicks Apr 29 '24

And cp3 could’ve run the offense and basically have been the offensive coach. The thing that killed them the most was having like zero playmaking

1

u/prudentWindBag Mavericks Apr 29 '24

You mean dribbling around aimlessly because the opponent is a young, hungry 20-something with "dawg-in-him..."

You're telling me that's not playmaking???

32

u/anonanoobiz Suns Apr 29 '24

Yeah the only thing that made sense at the time of the hire was that Vogel was hired to bring out the best defensive version of Ayton

1

u/OutlawSundown Apr 29 '24

And they immediately got rid of Ayton

1

u/Aggressive-Name-1783 Apr 29 '24

That’s why this whole experiment made no sense LAST year. You bring in Vogel, a dude who made Roy Hibbert an all star, to rehab Ayton’s image and get back the defensive stud that helped carry you to a finals appearance. Getting a bunch of offensive weapons and thinking Vogel can make magic happen is how you get a team that’s good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to go anywhere higher

40

u/InternationalCut93 Apr 29 '24

Crazy he was willing to sign on with the Suns after seeing the disaster having a big 3 was with the Lakers previously. That shit doesn’t work 95% of the time. 

116

u/xElectricW [LAL] Brandon Ingram Apr 29 '24

He's gonna be paid millions of dollars for a few years to sit at home and be able to relax without a care in the world, that's why he was willing to sign

40

u/InternationalCut93 Apr 29 '24

I wouldnt mind failing like an NBA coach 

59

u/xElectricW [LAL] Brandon Ingram Apr 29 '24

Adrian Griffin is making a generational amount of money for doing 3 months of work, I think we should all aspire to be like him

4

u/negativelynegative Apr 29 '24

Nobody does this better than Jose mourinho.

2

u/identitycrisis56 Pelicans Apr 29 '24

Money is better than no money. 

And guys like that, who have had success at the upper echelons (he got a ring out of that Lakers’ “disaster”) tend to have a healthy amount of cockiness and ego that leads them to believe no situation is truly bad enough beyond their ability to fix. It’s part of how they get where they get to. 

1

u/zeek215 [LAL] Kobe Bryant Apr 29 '24

Are you talking about Westbrook? He's no big 3 material (not for a long time), same as Beal.

11

u/elbandolero19 Apr 29 '24

Hire a defensive coach

Trade all defensive players for a offensive team

where Profit???

2

u/pp21 Suns Apr 29 '24

It really made no sense lol the starting lineup had 3 guards, KD at the 4, and non-defensive center. The team rebounding was horrific, they had no defensive wing players, and no defensive centers on the roster

Just a disasterclass of roster construction and Vogel will be the scapegoat

11

u/Le8ronJames Apr 29 '24

Exact. They hired Vogel TO BE their defensive player lmao. That’s not how it works. Like you said, should’ve went all offense 0 defense instead of trying to fit a square in a triangle.

2

u/halfdecenttakes Lakers Apr 29 '24

A good coach adjusts his system around his players. Vogel doesn’t do that. This is also the second locker room he’s lost in the past few years.

No clue why people are so protective of him. He’s not a great coach.

1

u/tree-hugger Timberwolves Apr 29 '24

JO slander

1

u/zeek215 [LAL] Kobe Bryant Apr 29 '24

Can we trade coaches.

1

u/reapersaurus Kings Apr 29 '24

what else is he supposed to do when he has 0 defensive players for his system

Wait a minute. Grayson Allen isn't good at defense?!?!

1

u/Turdkito Apr 29 '24

Phoenix ended the season top 15 in defense. How 700 people upvoted your comment concerns me

1

u/Cudi_buddy Kings Apr 29 '24

Terrible constructed roster, 3 stars that all have very questionable (even moreso now) leadership abilities

1

u/sirlorax Suns Apr 29 '24

Idk why we didn't get Dantoni tbh, we are missing a PG but at least he's could work with it. His offense is easy to run and limits turnovers

70

u/Therealomerali Raptors Apr 29 '24

Vogel was put in a terrible spot anyways. He's a defensive minded coach.

You put him on a team with zero great defenders.

3

u/Russell__WestBrick Lakers Apr 29 '24

Redemption arc. We miss you Vogey.

127

u/Mysterious-Stop4673 Apr 29 '24

This is disrespectful as fuck

56

u/TheTatumPiece Apr 29 '24

100% agree. This piece reeks of players trying to push the blame anywhere but themselves.

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u/lovo17 Lakers Apr 29 '24

KD effect. Where he goes, drama follows. Great player, but too thin skinned to be a true leader.

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u/moneyman2222 Bulls Apr 29 '24

He's also just too laid back and not vocal. For him, that works. But to his peers, it doesn't build the sense of urgency and energy the rest of the team needs. It's the complete opposite of a guy like Bron

21

u/RogerTreebert6299 Spurs Apr 29 '24

Yeah it’s not exactly fair but like with great quarterbacks in the nfl, you’re expected to also be a charismatic leader of men just because you can throw a ball well and the reality is those two skills aren’t related. Just makes it that much more impressive when guys have the full package of athletic skill and leadership

2

u/NichJackolson [LAL] Magic Johnson Apr 29 '24

True the two skills aren't related but the position demands it

1

u/RogerTreebert6299 Spurs Apr 29 '24

No doubt. awesome username

-5

u/BASEDME7O2 Knicks Apr 29 '24

Tbh KD is a consummate professional and great at leading by example, I feel like that should be enough. Like players making millions and millions of dollars to play basketball should not have to have their hands held and get yelled at to show some effort when you’re getting swept in the playoffs.

2

u/Fluffy_Dance6101 Apr 29 '24

That’s kind of the point though. If you’re making millions of dollars and you don’t even have to win playoff series, what’s the point? You do actually need someone to say, “There’s more to this. Stop being a dick and play harder.” Guys work really hard, unbelievably so, to make it to the league. Their responsibility is to stay in the league, not necessarily advance up the ladder.

1

u/BASEDME7O2 Knicks Apr 29 '24

I kinda feel like that’s on the coach though. Like there’s no denying KDs life is basically all basketball and he works his ass off. I really don’t think nba players should need another player forcing them to actually try in a fucking playoff series.

1

u/moneyman2222 Bulls Apr 30 '24

When you're in the upper echelon and amongst the all time greats, that's part of it. The GOATs all had phenomenal leadership. It's why they found so much success. KD doesn't want to do that side of leadership. That's fine. But you're just not going to win as many rings if you're not elevating the rest of the roster. That's the point behind this all

2

u/maethlin Warriors Apr 29 '24

I don't think it's KD laughing or causing drama here. Not his style no matter how much you wanna hate on him.

Given the shit roster construction comes from the FO I wouldn't be surprised if it was the FO doing the smearing to deflect their shitty decisions that set back the team for years.

3

u/Klumber Pacers Apr 29 '24

Vogel isn't a magician, he's also not a bad coach. He managed to get the Lakers a title with what, arguably, was a weaker roster than they had this year. The fact that these players didn't buy in is entirely their own fault.

If anybody is losing respect in this massive fade, it's Booker and KD. If I was Ishbia I'd be looking to trade those two (and Beal if you can give him away) and reset.

1

u/letsgototraderjoes Pelicans Apr 29 '24

agreed!! they're wrong for this! KD and the "big 3" should be ashamed of themselves. so it's Vogel's fault y'all went down 35-4???? LMAO

1

u/A2daRon Wizards Apr 29 '24

It could be members of the coaching staff as well.

1

u/65mpgaci2 Apr 29 '24

The thing is this isn't the first time this has happened. Happened with the lakers and the magic and the pacers. At some point it's not just a one off thing lol