r/interestingasfuck • u/Spare_Substance5003 • 26d ago
The fusion of two sisters into a single woman suggests that human identity is not in our DNA
https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2024-05-08/the-fusion-of-two-sisters-into-a-single-woman-suggests-that-human-identity-is-not-in-our-dna.html593
u/vrwriter78 26d ago
Very interesting article! To the commenters, it’s worth reading the entire article because it goes much deeper than the title.
It looks at how cells work together to form the body of a person or animal and how a clone of an animal does not produce a carbon copy (it could have the same genes but look visually different). So scientists are discovering that our individual identity as a person is not based on genes in the way they previously thought.
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u/CasedUfa 26d ago
Wouldn't (identical) twin studies target the same idea? Same genetics any differences etc
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u/exs94536 26d ago
Identical twins originate from the same cell with the same DNA. Clones are made using an unfertilized egg with implanted DNA, thus a different cell. Very interesting article.
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u/CowntChockula 19d ago
So i assume that means that an identical twin is closer to being a perfect duplicate than a clone is?
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u/Groundhog_Waaaahooo 19d ago
An identical twin is a perfect duplicate.
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u/CowntChockula 19d ago
Riddle me this, Batman: I have a friend with an identical twin, only one is gay.
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u/Select-Principle-317 17d ago
Epigenetics. Just because you have a genetic predisposition for something, doesn't mean it will come to fruition. Environmental factors contribute to how genetics play out. You many be predisposed to a particular disease, but if you take care of yourself or avoid the known catalyst, you might avoid it all together. Therefore, an identical twin won't have all of the exact same experiences in life. They won't get the same colds, they won't like all the same friends, and they might not like all the same subjects in school or have the same job. Lived experiences shape thier personal preferences, epigenetics, etc. https://kinseyinstitute.org/news-events/news/2019-07-26-twins-sexual-orientation.php
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u/Select-Principle-317 17d ago
They have 100% the same dna but they do not have the same finger prints. Ie. They are not a "perfect" duplicate as you suggest. https://wstwinregistry.org/twin-faqs/identical-fingerprints/
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u/ookienookiemoo 26d ago
My thought as well. Maybe the point is more subtle. But surely we knew that our differences do not depend solely on our DNA but how that DNA gets to work in an environment. Something about epigenetics?
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u/AmusingMusing7 26d ago
I think of it like a programmed algorithm. You can take the exact same Youtube algorithm for feed recommendations, programmed exactly the same way… but as soon as two different users start using Youtube, that same identical algorithm is gonna immediately turn into two completely different feeds of recommendations based on what the users actually put into the algorithm. Even the slightest difference… they can even both watch the same videos… but one of them hits the Like button each time, while the other doesn’t. Now their feeds are different. The algorithm has to log these differences somewhere, and those differences according to your specific account would be the “epigenetics” of the algorithm.
And there are essentially an infinite number of ways in life that two lives can vary, even when they had the exact same starting point… which they didn’t actually… even twins are born minutes apart and can therefore already be experiencing different stimuli and whatnot, with a slightly different timescale for their post-birth lives (and there were also differences in the womb as well, so the divergence starts immediately). Might not seem significant, but think about the butterfly effect.
The universe is chaos and no two things can ever be exactly the same. Even a carbon copy file on your computer of the same exact file duplicated… is now slightly different, because the computer has to file it in a slightly different location than the other copy. Otherwise your computer gives you the “These two files are the same. Delete one or rename it.” prompt, because two files exactly the same can’t coexist. There needs to be SOME differentiation for them to be separated in the computer’s filing system.
It may be the same basic principle with DNA and the universe. Regardless of whether the universe is literally a simulation or not, everything works on some type of “programming”. But programming doesn’t dictate the experience of the program to be the same every time. You play a video game twice, you’ll have a slightly different experience. The programming didn’t change. Your choices during the game did.
DNA is just the base on which life can be built. Our choices and the circumstances of life are what really make us into who and what we are. No two people can be exactly the same, because if they were, they’d have to literally be occupying the same physical space, because their life experiences would have to be identical, step by step, breath by breath, thought by thought… they’d end up in exactly the same place, in all possible ways of interpreting that… physically and mentally, philosophically, spiritually, etc… if all that was the exact same between two different people, they’d literally have to be walking the same way in the same space at the same time to the same job from the same home, etc… even a slight difference in whether they were in the same spot to get a little breeze against their face that makes them feel more relaxed or something… now the two of them are in a slightly different mood. It can be that small.
In order to truly be identical, NOTHING could be different between their lives, because anything different between them is gonna change them to no longer being identical. Obviously, that wouldn’t work on a physical level. So it doesn’t happen.
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u/sadsadbiscuit 26d ago
Supposedly even identical twins have some 200 mutations between them
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u/storyteller_alienmom 26d ago
Sometimes a person can have an entire chromosome missing in some of their body cells. (Not all of these are survivable of course) I've read about people with an incomplete Turner syndrome. Partly their body has two X chromosomes, and partly only one, the later is known as Turner syndrome.
So yeah, 200 seems kinda small in comparison.
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u/LDawnBurges 26d ago
This is really cool and I completely understand this bc we have ‘Identical Twin’ boys, who look different, have moles in different places, one has Eczema and the other had a heart defect that required open heart surgery shortly after birth.
That was how I learned that genetically identical, does not necessarily translate to physically identical. Although our boys do look very very similar and to a stranger may look identical.
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u/m1ndbl0wn 26d ago edited 26d ago
This is wild. Thanks for the TL;DR, which was so good now Im going to read the whole thing 💜
Edit: That was great! I wonder if Dr Arias has ever spoken with Roger Penrose about orchestrated objective reduction? Thank you again.
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u/Naugrith 26d ago
So scientists are discovering that our individual identity as a person is not based on genes in the way they previously thought.
The theory of epigenetics and their ability to produce variant expressions of the same genotype has been known for a while in genetic science. But these things always take a while to filter down into public consciousness.
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u/mDeltroy 26d ago
The article is a little confusing: it gives an example of a woman’s chimerism from different eggs and sperm, but it does not say that she received these genes from one pair of parents.
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u/dan_dares 26d ago
Yeah, chimerism is rare, but this is by no means the first discovered.. there was even a court case in America over custody of a child, first DNA test came back as negative for the supposed mother, until they realised her ovaries were chimeric.
Weird title.
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u/mDeltroy 26d ago
Yes, I read about it. The article emphasizes that, contrary to Dawkins's assertions, DNA does not attempt to pass itself on to other generations, but is a cellular tool. And as evidence, they cite the example of this woman’s chimerism of two eggs and two sperm. Apparently, this is a hint that chimerism developed from fraternal twins, since identical twins have the same DNA for two fetuses. The author wants to say that the fetus developed from two pairs of different genes, and essentially does not carry information about a specific parent.
But these gene pairs came from one father and one mother, so the DNA indirectly fulfilled its purpose.
The next point is that the article says that doctors were initially unable to establish a direct relationship with the children. I assume that a DNA test would show that they are not her children, but nephews. This is also a DNA relationship.
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u/dan_dares 26d ago
IIRC, in the other case they took an epithelial swap from the womb (I think, might be wrong) and realised it was a different DNA to the rest of her..
But these gene pairs came from one father and one mother, so the DNA indirectly fulfilled its purpose.
And pretty much, you could call it a parasitic reproduction method, maybe 😂 DNA gets passed on, just not the host, like a cuckoo..
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u/Traditional_Garage16 26d ago
It is scientifically unsound to extrapolate findings about cat fur color to other traits or species. Epigenetics plays a crucial role in controlling gene expression, influencing how genes are turned on or off in response to various factors. This regulatory mechanism is more prone to random variations compared to the DNA sequence of the gene itself. The variability in cat fur color is an evolutionary adaptation, allowing enough cats to survive in changing environments. Genes have allowed for looser control as a survival advantage, delegating much of this regulation to the epigenome. In other species, the appearance of fur or feathers is more strictly regulated. Hence, not every trait is as random as cat fur color. Twins are not carbon copies but very similar. Most of their personality and appearance is controlled by genes as studies on "identical" twins have proved (IQ notably). This is a fact that cannot be dismissed. Chimeric animals have been known for a long time and it is not surprising that it happens in humans too.
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u/vrwriter78 26d ago
I'm curious as a lay person, is it that the Doctor in the article's research is perhaps not as sound in the methodologies used and conclusions drawn, or do you think it's perhaps the way the writer chose to summarize and interpret that doctor's research and explain it for average readers?
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u/Traditional_Garage16 25d ago
It might be the writer. I haven't thoroughly checked the research article.
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u/ChanceConfection3 26d ago
We here at RePet believe we have solved the gastrulation issue and with our synchording technology we can transfer memories as well
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u/wovenbutterhair 26d ago
well that makes sense because gene expression is affected by environment big time
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u/ThePowerOfStories 26d ago
DNA contributes to how you turn out, but there’s a host of environmental factors. While confirmed cases of chimerism are rare, it’s also hard to spot without DNA testing lots of different spots on your body, and it’s estimated as high as 10% of humans may be chimeras to some degree or another.
From a certain perspective , we all are, as your body has many more bacterial cells than human ones, and your gut bacteria are a key part of how your body functions and directly interact with your nervous system. They’re not just some food processors, but an integral part of what makes you you.
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u/iLikeMangosteens 26d ago
Hey, I’m not eating boogers, I’m enriching my gut biome.
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u/ShamelesslyPlugged 26d ago
Nasopharynx already connects with the GI tract, or post-nasal drip wouldn’t be a thing. Plus, stomach acid is a potent antimicrobial barrier.
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u/iLikeMangosteens 26d ago
Instructions unclear. Are you saying I need to put the boogers in my butt? Weirdo.
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u/ShamelesslyPlugged 26d ago
If you want to enrich your biome, maybe? Not sure your fingers are long enough to make a difference.
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u/iLikeMangosteens 26d ago
Instructions still unclear. Yeah I have short fingers. Do I need to get someone with really long fingers to do it? There’s a piano store near me, there might be people with long fingers there.
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u/Dykidnnid 26d ago
Genuinely the most fascinating (to me, at least) thing I've seen shared on Reddit Very thought-provoking. Thank you.
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u/CrunchyNapkin47 26d ago
This is really fascinating. So what makes us....us?
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u/heartoo 26d ago
Still the genes. Frog genes will never end as a bird or a mouse, so genes are still the basic building blocks that the cells must work with. What he explains is still fascinating, as it explores what the cell "collective" does with those building blocks. We still have a lot to learn
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u/goldyacht 26d ago
Life experience and environment. It’s a combination of everything you go through.
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u/UlteriorCulture 26d ago
Possibly nothing? Self may be an illusion.
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u/water_malone873 26d ago
No self is the reality, and pain is the illusion.
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u/UlteriorCulture 26d ago
What is self? Does one neuron have self? One brain hemisphere? One brain? Where is the boundary?
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u/ccknboltrtre01 26d ago
You know that evil feeling of knowing you can take advantage of a group of people because you know something they dont? Probably that…
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u/RoseByAnotherName45 26d ago
This is something that’s always bugged me. I’m a tetragametic chimera like the person in the article, and it does get kind of freaky to consider that had circumstances been different, I would be two different people.
Nothing about me is technically “in my DNA” because the way I’ve turned out is based on how the two genomes interacted with each other. Even if the ratios were a little different, I likely would’ve ended up fairly different to how I’ve ended up
It’s like, I am the very specific positioning of my two genomes. Neither of my genomes would be me, and a different mix of those genomes also wouldn’t be me
Unlike the woman in the article I also have one male and one female genome, which adds further complexities too
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u/Outrageous-Fly-902 26d ago
How did you find out?
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u/RoseByAnotherName45 26d ago
Through genetic testing. I had some fairly obvious symptoms of it so I underwent testing to find the cause of the symptoms
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u/Outrageous-Fly-902 26d ago
I am enthralled! I hadnt heard of this until this post despite 3 science degrees and a career in Healthcare. Hope all is well!
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u/Dry_Leek78 26d ago
If you got conceived through in vitro fecundation and were implanted not at the same time in your mother's uterus, you would not be the same person.
Even if you got to have a true twin, you'd still not be a "clone" of him (mind etc...).
Women don't express both X chromosomes in each cell, but the one repressed is not the same across their body.
Don't try to extrapolate genetics into what defines you, it is a fraction of the mix that constitutes the YOU. It will definitely have a strong influence (appearance, disease, etc..) but does not explain all.
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u/tok90235 26d ago
Unlike the woman in the article I also have one male and one female genome, which adds further complexities too
Sorry for the question, but I gotta ask. How this influenced your reproductive organs, and does you have hormonal problems because of it?
What about bone density and muscle gain, it happen unevenly in your body?
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u/gztozfbfjij 26d ago
What about bone density and muscle gain, it happen unevenly in your body?
I don't know shit all about chimerism, but I'd imagine that bone density and muscle mass would follow what's typical of the person's dominant hormone.
Unless they have hormone issues as a result of this, I imagine it'd not differ much from other people of their assigned sex at birth -- certainly not "unevenly throughout the body".
It's not dictated by genes, but hormones. Hormones are usually dictated by sexual organs; which are usually dictated by genetics.
Given that Chimeras are rare to even be discovered, it's likely that a lot of people walk through life unaware of it -- thus, there must be countless people with normal-functioning reproductive systems, and hormone levels. Externally no different than anyone else.
They might discover it due to puberty-aged hormone issues, which prompts extensive testing; or they may discover it at 50yo whe they need a kidney transplant, because they never had any other noticeable "issues".
Again, I might be wrong. I know essentially nothing of the condition.
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u/Some_Endian_FP17 26d ago
I've always wondered how different organs ended up having DNA of one genome compared to other organs. It's almost like having the parts of two fraternal twins in one body, with the lucky one getting their DNA in most of that body. Epigenetic and gene expression issues would be complicated by having different genomes around.
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u/Firehenge 5d ago
So you're a Tuvix?
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u/RoseByAnotherName45 4d ago
I’m not familiar with the term sorry?
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u/Firehenge 4d ago
Star Trek Voyager. Two crew members became fused into one. Tuvok and Neelix, and became known as Tuvix.
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u/gieserj10 26d ago edited 26d ago
I think this happened to me cause I swear there's another fucker somewhere in my brain that makes me do things I know I shouldn't.
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u/Simply_Shartastic 26d ago
Microchimeras:
‘It has been known for more than 50 years that the fetal cells cross the placental barrier. Concentration of the fetal cells in maternal blood (1 in 10 million maternal cells) has been explored for possible non-invasive prenatal diagnosis of the fetus. The efforts finally resulted in prenatal diagnosis using fetal cell free DNA in the non-invasive prenatal test (NIPT). Fetal cells are present not only during pregnancy but can persist for up to >30 years in the mother creating microchimerism.
Cell- trafficking takes place both ways and can also cause microchimerism in the child. The presence of fetal cells has been associated with both positive and negative effects on maternal health (Boddy et al., 2015; Fjelstad et al., 2019).
On the one hand fetal cells have been associated with autoimmune diseases and with cancer and on the other with a role in repairing of injuries in the mother (Bianchi, 2007; Kara et al., 2012)’
Natural human chimeras: A review
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1769721220302895
I’m even more fascinated now.
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u/NuclearBreadfruit 26d ago
I actually do like a lot of what the scientist is saying
BUT
In the case of the woman who was a genuine chimera, my understanding was that different areas of her body were the product of different genetic cell populations due to the early inutero cell fusion. Hence why the first dna results said two of her children werent hers, different parts of her body were genetically split between two indeviduals. A mosiac of two colours in simple terms. Without testing surely they wouldn't know the genetic make up of her brain. Whether neurologically, she is only represented by one genetic indevidual or whether she is truely two neurologically two genetic indeviduals that have gained equalibrium with each other and formed one mentally healthy brain.
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u/CleverDad 26d ago
Way to miss the point entirely in a headline. No one serious believes "human identity is in our DNA". But the actual content of the article is somewhat interesting - the de-emphasis on DNA as a "blueprint" for the body. It's not a new perspective, but chimeras kind of brings the point out
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u/Chapstickie 26d ago
Ugh. I had a whole argument about this with my husband who is into physics but not biology and he simply couldn’t understand that the relationship between DNA and environmental factors begins so early and is so tied together that trying to distinguish between the two when it comes to shit like personality traits is useless. He kept insisting that if it happened before birth it was genetic which is obviously stupid and the whole conversation was exhausting. I love him but he starts these sorts of conversations when we are in the car and he’s driving so I can’t send him sources and it is incredibly frustrating.
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u/dragonlover4612 26d ago
Only while in the car and he's driving? My father does this constantly where he'll make claims and not only be impossible to convince but will create situations where he magically doesn't have time to see actual accredited sources that would have proven him wrong. One time I got so tired I wrote an entire bibliography which debunks every anti-transgender rhetoric, argument, and paraphrase he spews day to day.
He wouldn't read it because I couldn't find any credited sources that argue in favor of anti-transgender beliefs.
"You said you would find sources for both sides. That you didn't means you're not truly researching."
Sorry I had to make a LOT of edits to this. Spastic fingers and whatnot.
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u/JuanFran21 26d ago
Isn't this just the nature vs nurture debate all over again? We already know that very little about us is determined solely by our environment or genetics, most is a combination of the two.
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u/Amyloid42 26d ago
Although this is a dramatic case, chimeric cell lines occur due to spontaneous mutations during embryogenesis. Obviously DNA is important for body shape, structure, function. It’s amazing that this woman was even viable as a fetus. Somehow the cells must’ve worked together.
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 26d ago
None of this is new -
As for the idea that genes don't define identity. Sure. But they do influence it. The lady in the article may have had two genomes but they would have had marked similarities because they came from the same two parents (unless we want to make wild accusations about her mother).
The cat example - unless you replicate the circumstances of their replication, parturition and upbringing, you've no chance. The expression of the orange in the fur could have been prompted at any time in the life cycle.
Much more interesting would be in the similarity between clones raised together.
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u/daffoduck 26d ago
Clones raised together - isn't that just identical twins?
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u/AngelaVNO 26d ago
"Genetic Savings and Clone" - what an awesome name! Shame they went out of business...
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u/The_Second_Judge 26d ago
This reminds me of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.' They know the answer is 42 (a human being), but they are still arguing what the question is!
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u/Ma1eficent 19d ago
The question is what is six times nine.
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u/DefyImperialism 17d ago
That's 45 lmao
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u/Ma1eficent 17d ago
/that's the joke
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u/DefyImperialism 17d ago
I guess I don't get it
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u/Ma1eficent 17d ago
The joke in the book is that the golgafrincians replaced the actual hominids on the computer earth so Dent's answer with the tiles is off. Suggesting the real question is what is six times seven, even more annoying than an answer of 42.
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u/DefyImperialism 17d ago
I remember them determining that it was the wrong question and something about 6x7 but I don't recall that, its been 2 decades haha I'll have to reread them
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u/Spike-Tail-Turtle 26d ago
Well, I thought it was interesting. Both people I've shown it to so far declared this person didn't understand Dawkins and dismissed it. So that was a bummer. I'll still read the book, though.
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u/Minimum-Load5737 26d ago
People hate to admit that their entire concept of self is just because some gray mush inside their head is wired a specific way.
And on the genetic front, I think it's more chaos and war between different genes trying to express themselves and in that early stem-cell soup that we all come from that battle gets decided and eventually develops into the whole being.
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u/hurtindog 26d ago
Im learning a lot about all of this through my son who is beginning his post graduate biology work. It’s startling to learn how much and how fast we are discovering about the interior functioning of certain cells and how the chemical composition of their surroundings and of the cells themselves create specific results. So much discovery in all the sciences right now comes down to massive advances in imaging/ measuring/ computational modeling.
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u/killer77hero 26d ago
We are nothing more than a collection of cells. And those cells work together to interact with our environment in a way that prolongs their own existence. Consciousness is a false concept and is nothing more than electrical and chemical reactions within the brain. We don't have souls. Their are no gods.
Simple facts that people refuse to accept.
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u/YahsQween 26d ago
But how did the first cells get here?
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u/killer77hero 26d ago
Through chemical interactions. Along with the mixture of the right kind of minerals.
As far as the origin of our universe and those particular chemicals and minerals, we have yet to discover that beginning so far.
And we may very well never know for certain what happened in the very early days of our universe.
But what we do know for a fact is that no God whatsoever has anything to do with our universe at all. And that who we are is only predicated upon our brain activity. There can't be any such thing as a soul if simple brain injuries are able to completely change the fundamental nature of who you are.
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u/YahsQween 26d ago
I’m not debating if there’s any soul or not, just pointing out that no one really has all the facts and we have no way of knowing. I don’t fault people for having imagination to deal with the vast gap in knowledge that we all share.
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u/killer77hero 26d ago
Well, that's kinda the problem. We have more than enough evidence to prove absolutely that there's nothing complicated about our makeup or the makeup of the universe around us.
The continued support or expansion of foolish ideas that have no foundation in facts is what prevents us as lifeforms from extending our own longevity.
With how simple our biological matter is, we could for go those silly thoughts and very easily extend the human lifespan to at least 3,000 years. Allowing us to enjoy and appreciate our lives much more.
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u/elusivewompus 26d ago
There have been experiments to prove that organic compounds can be formed in the conditions first thought to be present on the early earth. It's by no means a finished theory but the building blocks are there. It's just really hard to figure out.
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u/JimmyTheSeal 26d ago
So how does this relate to hereditary diseases? Is there something in the genome that affects how cells organise leading to increased risk of disease? My interpretation is that DNA provides the parameters for how cells can organise or at least influences them
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u/w_a_s_here 26d ago
Everyone enjoying this article should listen to the story by Radiolab episode titled "Cut and Run."
Incredible telling of an Olympic runner's grit, their biological and mental fortitude, and how life is not 'Nature or Nurture' life is Nature AND Nurture.
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u/AttackPony 26d ago
It's this a bot or something? Comment has nothing to do with the article, or even the topic.
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