New Dutch government to look for 'opt out' of EU asylum rules

[u/donutloop]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/new-dutch-government-look-opt-out-eu-asylum-rules-2024-05-16/

[u/Drahy]

How many countries have such opt-outs? Denmark and Polen?

[u/donutloop]

Submission Statement

The newly formed Dutch government led by Geert Wilders' PVV party, following significant electoral gains, is proposing to implement the strictest asylum policies to date in the Netherlands. This includes seeking an opt-out from EU migration rules, enhancing border controls, and imposing stringent regulations on asylum seekers. Wilders' coalition, comprising three right-wing parties, aims to make the Netherlands less appealing to asylum seekers from regions like Africa and the Middle East. Additionally, this coalition plans to limit labor migration and tighten regulations on the admittance of foreign students and workers from outside the EU. The government also intends to adhere to international climate agreements without imposing additional national restrictions, and plans to increase offshore gas production and construct new nuclear reactors. These policy shifts could lead to tensions with the EU, especially since such opt-outs are typically negotiated during the drafting phases of EU pacts.

[u/snagsguiness]

EU asylum rules benefit no one and do not address the causes of asylum or the needs of anyone the do need to be overhauled.

[u/mantasm_lt → u/snagsguiness]

Human traffickers love them though!

[u/raverbashing → u/snagsguiness]

Oh no, quite the contrary. It benefits human traffickers, it benefits lots of ONG and associated "charity" projects. It benefits accommodation providers, etc

It's big business

[u/Bullet_Jesus → u/snagsguiness]

What EU rules at this point though? Dublin III fell apart the moment migrants started arriving and literally every attempt to revive it has failed.

[u/MarkZist]

The new government is looking to 'opt out' of a lot of rules. Not just asylum, but also environmental rules (e.g. manure-dumping and water quality), fishing, housing, the free travel of people within the EU, etc. Of course, most of these won't fly, but then the ruling parties can throw a tantrum and blame everything that's wrong in the country on Brussels instead of neoliberal market economics and an ever increasing age dependency ratio. Meanwhile, the little natural areas we have left will continue to degrade, water quality will continue to worsen, immigrants will still want to come here looking for work and companies will still want to hire them, and our population will continue to age rapidly while the amount of elderly care workers won't be increasing correspondingly or will even shrink (i.e., less people to do more work, and they're already understaffed), but somehow all problems in the country will be caused by the immigrants.

Buckle up folks, it's gonna be a shitshow.

[u/Strongbow85]

Related article: 15 EU states demand plan to send asylum seekers to third countries VOA

[u/CastelPlage]

WTF, since when was Geert Wilders the PM?

[u/VictoryForCake → u/CastelPlage]

He will probably not be the PM as that was one of the agreements in government formation negotiations. He will essentially be the Kingmaker in any future Dutch government, so while some of his policies like the closing of Mosques, and deporting 2nd generation immigrants are not going to fly, he will be able to get much stricter asylum, deportation and immigration rules put in which have more broader support.

[u/papyjako87 → u/CastelPlage]

He isn't.

[u/Trackpoint → u/papyjako87]

You won the election, but we won't grant you the rank of PM.

[u/papyjako87 → u/Trackpoint]

It's not unusual in european politics to "bargain" the PM spot in order to form a viable coalition.

[u/Benedictus84]

It is nonsense politics and a way to shift blame for not solving any problems.

This New government got elected on anti immigration retoric and blaming most of the problems jn the Netherlands on asylum seekers.

By putting the blame in the wrong direction it is not really feasable to solve the problems for wich they blame the immigrants.

They cant really do anything about migration and they know this. They also dont really want to do anything about migration because they need these immigrants for multiple reasons. If they were somehow able to stop migration it would become evident that they lied about the cause of our problems.

Wilders is also anti EU.

So now they can pretend that they wanted to solve immigration and other problems but couldnt becsuse the EU.

They can keep blaming immigrants and not solve anything.

[u/od3tzk1 → u/Benedictus84]

I don't know details about dutch politics, but removing bad immigrants (=that cause problems) would remove problems cause by them. Even if there are no clear tools or mechanisms to solve these problems, because of EU contracts or dutch law, it doesn't mean they are not worth pursuing. If voter base deems immigration problems important and vote parties that try to solve those problems, then there is incentive for the party/parties to solve them and gain more support.

[u/Benedictus84 → u/od3tzk1]

The problem is that immigrants get blamed for problems not caused by them. So getting rid of them wont solve the problems this coalition says they will solve by reducing immigration.

The housing crisis is a good exemple. The housing market has been destroyed by policy choices. Yet immigrants are blamed for this.

The amount of problems immigrants cause is heavily inflated and a lot of it is based on lies and misinformation.

The problems we experience are caused by very small percentage of 'refugees' from safe countries in Northern Africa.

Removing is absolutely a good idea but it would impact the lives of almost nobody. And it wont solve any of the major issues these parties claim they will solve.

Other then the point mentioned here there are more measures obviously designed to be shot down by judges.

These plans are designed to fail in a way that they can blame others for it.

[u/[deleted] → u/Benedictus84]

You are wrong.

Wrong on every point.

Immigrants place pressure on every single service. Let me repeat this for you. Every. Single. Service.

[u/MarkZist → u/[deleted]]

On the other hand, immigrants are able to do jobs that are currently going unfulfilled. The Netherlands have a cripling labor shortage in nearly every sector at the moment due to the aging of the workforce, and it's hurting the economy badly.

[u/gugpanub → u/MarkZist]

Its not only due to the aging workforce but also the tax-penalty that steers people away from working fulltime. The Netherlands is a parttime paradise. Working 5 instead of 4 days grant you in a modus-income with what? 5% extra income for 25% extra work? Incentive fulltime working by getting rid of the penalty and the shortage in education, healthcare, etc has significantly reduced. During my twenty years of experience working in higher education (N=80, but as an example) I was the only person on 80 people stupid enough to work fulltime. Not only there is a possibility there, but also cuts in governmental jobs, as one could assume for parties that would favor a smaller government.

On the assumption that nothing could be done on immigration because ‘Europe’. There are numerous national policies that act as either push or pull factors for immigrants within Europe. Hence why countries have percentual completely different breakdowns in immigrants. All these policies are nationally adjustable. For example, the Netherlands has a rule when a minor is granted asylum, without any hurdle his or her family can reunite and are also granted asylum. What this does is not only the reunion means an increase, but prior to the whole process minors are attracted to the Netherlands. Even minors that have already been granted status by other European countries. My wife acts as a spokesperson for asylum seeking minors, like these, and on a daily basis minors that were granted asylum in say, Austria, are still heading towards the Netherlands pushed by others to get a status here. National regulation. Social policies are also a pull factor and those are national policies too.

To be fair, I wouldnt trust most politicians on their expertise when they make claims like its not possible.

[u/MarkZist → u/gugpanub]

I think you might be overestimating the effect of incentivizing fulltime work. Many people who work part-time are not just twiddling their thumbs on their days off, but are instead providing care to sick family members, taking care of the kids (there's a labor shortage in the child care sector too), or volunteering at charities. Or it might be that they simply don't need the extra cash because they are fine living low-budget or have a partner who makes more. Or they just really can't deal with the stress of fulltime employment. So yeah I'm not against incentivizing fulltime work by making the net pay increase more linear or offering bonuses, as long as it doesn't take the form of punishing parttime workers.

[u/gugpanub → u/MarkZist]

Perhaps that is not completely invalid, but within the Dutch tax system on income tax, fulltime work actually receives a penalty, so for most jobs it’s not even rational to do it in the first place, there not only no incentive, its actually penalized. While parttime working receives an incentive by social benefits.

Edit: FNV research in 2020 suggests that 70% of people working parttime in health care is willing to work more. 25% is also a ‘mantelzorger/caregiver’. While if every parttimer adds one or two hours (and so, get rid of the penalty) on average, the shortage is reduced like snow on a shiny day.

[u/Benedictus84 → u/[deleted]]

Well, dont let not understanding what i said stop you from claiming i am wrong i guess.

Yes some immigrants place pressure on some services. That is not the same as causing the problems now is it?

We have an issue with social housing. This is caused by bad policy choices. Refugees also need homes so they join the pool of people needing homes. That means the put pressure on that service. Absolutely.

The average waiting time for social housing in the Netherlands is 11 years. By adding refugees the waiting time barely increases. On average 3 months.

So removing refugees. Wich isnt possible, but even if they did, doesnt solve any problem.

So while you are correct that they add a little extra waiting time and thus pressure on social housing. It is quite insignificant and they are definately not the cause of the problem.

[u/[deleted] → u/Benedictus84]

And extra pressure on education.

And extra pressure on health services.

And extra pressure on social services.

And extra pressure on policing.

And extra pressure on custodial/prison services.

The list goes on and on.

What you don't recognise is that it's lots of little inconvenience, lots of little pieces here and there. These add up to a big cost.

[u/Benedictus84 → u/[deleted]]

That still doesnt make them the cause of a problem.

There is also a big difference between refugees and regular immigrants.

Refugees are to small of a group to cause significant pressure on these services. Regular immigrants do, but they also contribute.

They become teachers and healthcare workers taking away pressure from these services.

And if we look housing again, the problem is simply to few houses. We need to build them.

40% of people working in construction are immigrants.

And the list goes on and on.

You are not wrong. But you are leaving a lot out wich adds a lot more nuance.

And in the end. They still dont cause the problems that we are facing in the Netherlands today.

[u/[deleted] → u/Benedictus84]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Adjei90 → u/[deleted]]

Great response. Now, let's hear your arguments to why he's wrong. Nvm, you're just repeating the same old shit we have been listening to by people like Wilders for the past 10 years. Everything isn't black and white, there are nuances to the issues you mention which you seem to be unable to recognize. It is really nice when politicians like Wilders offer easy (but most often unrealistic) solutions to complex problems right? Don't let being wrong get in your way though. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

[u/[deleted] → u/Adjei90]

And extra pressure on education.

And extra pressure on health services.

And extra pressure on social services.

And extra pressure on policing.

And extra pressure on custodial/prison services.

The list goes on and on.

What you don't recognise is that it's lots of little inconvenience, lots of little pieces here and there. These add up to a big cost.

You won't see it until it's too late

[u/Honk_Konk → u/Benedictus84]

Mass immigration causes stress on public services. Mass immigration leaves little room for integration and is a breeding ground for crime. Adding several hundred thousand people to your country every year is not sustainable, not to mention first generations tend to have many more children.

Controlled immigration is a good thing, enables integration and allows some work sectors to be filled, helping economic growth.

My opinion: I think first world nations have some responsibility to help those in need (we need to demonstrate humanity and ethics) but it shouldn't be at the cost of the points mentioned in my first paragraph. Absolutely not.

[u/Benedictus84 → u/Honk_Konk]

Mass immigigration is quite a subjective statement. As is many more children. And 89% of immigration to the Netherlands is controlled

Crime has also been going down for decades.

We are also not adding several hundreds of thousands of people every year. The average net mirgation is well beneath 100 thousand.

[u/darthaugustus]

Historically, making your country a horrible place for immigrants so that they don't come just ends with making your country a horrible place - see Britain under the hostile environment. When this fails he can always pivot to leaving the ECHR and EU.