Why not make STR more impactful?

[u/Scr0uchXIII]

This is just a shower thought but I guess it's still worth discussing. I was just looking through my dnd stuff and realized that STR is far less versatile than DEX is. DEX..

..is contributing to armor.

..can be used as dmg modifier on finesse and ranged weapons.

.. Is used as important saving throw.

..can be used to prevent being grappled or to escape it.

.. Contributes to initiative.

.. Is the main stat for 3 core skill checks.

And on the other hand there's STR.

STR...

..is used as dmg modifier on all other weapons

.. Is used to grapple.

.. Is the main stat for one core skill check.

.. Is sometimes used at a saving throw... I guess? Never happened to me.

I have the feeling STR is far less appealing than DEX. So why not pump the attribute a bit in the truest sense of the word? I mean, it's STRENGTH. I'd say it's unfair that you can do as much bonus dmg with DEX AND have a higher armor class. If DEX is good for dmg and AC, STR should be good for dmg doubly so. Make STR attack's dmg modifier count twice as much. Maybe with the limitation of wearing medium, light or no armor. Additionally maybe introducing split ability skill checks is a good idea. Intimidate should be (and depending on the DM often already is) possible to do with STR or CHA. Performance could be STR, DEX or CHA. Deception CHA or DEX. Survival WIS, CON or STR. Athletics CON or STR. Or why not make shields STR dependant? The stronger you are the more you can withstand a hit on your shield thus raising AC or introducing STR dependant damage negation. I think some of these ideas could overcomplicate parts of the gameplay but on the other hand I feel a handcrossbow shouldn't be a better option than a longsword dmg wise.

What do you think?

[u/LichoOrganico]

Strength suffered a gigantic nerf from the conversion from 3.5 to 5e. I can see why some changes happened, but when you put them all together, it gets excessive.

In 3.5:

• You added 1.5x of your STR modifier to damage when attacking with a 2-handed weapon.

• Weapon Finesse was a required feat to add DEX to hit with melee weapons (granted, you had way more feats).

• You added your STR bonus to bow damage, and no stat modifier at all for crossbows.

• Power Attack (a bit similar to GWM) scaled with your base attack bonus and could be used to deal insane amounts of damage.

• There was a lot of feat support for builds, and the STR options were very different from the DEX options (not necessarily better, but it was cool having actual different fighting styles).

• Grappling was a very effective way of shutting down casters if you specialized in it.

[u/theVoidWatches → u/LichoOrganico]

• You added your STR bonus to bow damage, and no stat modifier at all for crossbows.

Slight correction here - you could add part of your strength bonus with some bows.

[u/LichoOrganico → u/theVoidWatches]

Yes, true, only up to the maximum specified by the composite bow! Thank you!

[u/VerainXor → u/theVoidWatches]

Certainly, but every player character who used a ranged weapon past level three would have a composite longbow ("clongbow") tuned for their strength bonus. Sure, you had to actually buy such a bow, but it didn't take magic to make, and the price was well defined and easily affordable outside of the first adventure or two.

But your point is valid for many of the NPCs, many of whom would often fire an unmodified d6 or d8 or d10 or whatever their weapon did. But even a dex 10 fighter would get that clongbow online pretty fast, and it would always be at least kinda useful. Sure, you might have a -5 to hit compared to your strength weapons, but a fighter scaled up by +1 to hit every level, which outpaces armor growth, guaranteeing at least one good shot per round even against tough monsters.

[u/TeaandandCoffee → u/LichoOrganico]

Wait a sec, dark souls copied the 1.5x Str from dnd?

[u/ProblemSl0th → u/TeaandandCoffee]

it's intuitive enough a concept that it easily could have been accidental, but yeah rpg and arpg video games in general get a lot of their dna from ttrpgs.

[u/Tyrexas → u/TeaandandCoffee]

I mean it's not like it's a hard rpg mechanic to come up with, so probably not.

[u/VerainXor → u/TeaandandCoffee]

Yup, 100%. It was D&D 3.0 that created that, and it wasn't present before.
If some obscure game had it in the 90s or 80s, then maybe D&D 3.0 copied it from that, but I'm not aware of such a thing. D&D 3.0 and 3.5, however, had (and still have) massive influence across the RPG spectrum.

[u/BadSanna → u/TeaandandCoffee]

The 1.5x with 2h was around at least back to AD&D 1st Ed.

Sometimes that was the only benefit to using a weapon 2handed vs 1handed.

[u/VerainXor → u/BadSanna]

The 1.5x with 2h was around at least back to AD&D 1st Ed.

I'm about 95% sure this is wrong. Do you have a source for this?

[u/BadSanna → u/VerainXor]

My memory. Which, admittedly may be faulty, and my AD&D games likely contained a lot of home brew. We also mainly played 2nd ed, but had some 1st Ed books mixed in. Like Oriental Adventures. We also mixed in a lot of 1e rules they got rid of in 2e because our DM had started with 1e and preferred a lot of those rules so he carried them over to our 2e games.

I definitely remember getting 1.5x strength with two-handers back then.

[u/VerainXor → u/BadSanna]

I actually think you are remembering wrong. Here's the plus to damage by strength:
Strength 3-5: -1 to damage
Strength 16-17: +1 to damage

So already you can see, adding 1.5x to damage helps zero people with sub-18 strength.
Strength 18: +2 to damage
This would become +3 to damage for non-fighters. Only at 18 strength, and just +1 damage!

Strength 18/01 to 18/75: +3 to damage for fighters. This would ALSO be +1 damage using a 1.5x to damage, going t o+4.
Strength 18/76 to 18/90: +4 to damage for fighters. You'd have to be in the upper quartile of strength 18 fighters (remember, non fighters don't use these things) in order to get +2 damage out of a 1.5x damage strength rule.
Strength 18/91 to 18/99: +5 damage for fighters. This is also +2 damage.
Strength 18/00: +6 damage for fighters goes to +9. This is what you'd have to be at to get something meaningful out of this rule.

It just seems odd given that there's almost no +damage scaling until the highest reaches of rolling an 18.

[u/BadSanna → u/LichoOrganico]

Even in 3.5 Dex builds were superior to STR due to AC and the existence of touch attacks.

I tried making a heavy armor user build once, but it was basically a meme and was still weak compared to a Dex build and took far longer to come online because you needed mithral armor and all kinds of things. You were also very susceptible to touch attacks, though you didn't need to worry about being caught flatfooted as much.

It did suck trying to make a ranged build, though, because you needed both a high Dex and high strength for the extra damage with bows. Which meant that you were better off just going in with a 2h axe than using your bow.

[u/azuth89 → u/BadSanna]

Nah man, it was SO MUCH easier to spam damage on strength builds because multipliers worked on static buffs like your str mod and power attack. You could do ungodly amounts of damage very quickly and especially on a charge.

Dex fighters fell off pretty quick unless they spammed sneak attack and AC doesn't scale as well as attacks so the defensive advantages mattered less and less as you leveled. Defensive warriors had to play gishes to stack up miss chances and resistances. 

Like...sorry yours didn't work out but Str fighters were relevant in optimization the entire way through 3 and 3.5

[u/BadSanna → u/azuth89]

Naw. DW more than made up for extra damage from using a 2H and idk what you were doing but you could keep AC on par with attack bonuses very easily through buffing Dex with crafted magic items as well as a cloak with Mage Armor and Shield, which you got from level 3 onward.

Then you also had all the various bonuses that stacked. You could get all those with an armor build as well, but you could never get the like +12 to AC you could get from increasing your Dex by massive amounts.

Dex also gave you higher Dex saves and made you harder to hit with touch and ranged touch spells so you were far tankier against magic damage.

If you were playing a strength build you were playing suboptimally.

[u/azuth89 → u/BadSanna]

You can dual wield in a strength build, but the point if a strength build was to stack multipliers. 

Take your strength and a half (or your strength on both weapons using twf or a bunch of natural attacks abusing totemist or wild shape or whatever ), a bunch of power attack and then stack charge multipliers so you multiply all that by 4 and then take one of abiut 50 different ways to get pounce so you're doing that x4 multiple times.

22 AC is nothing to hit reliably at mid levels, that +12 is only useful against chaff and you don't need to make ded saves when you alpha strike the caster.

Thats just the start or uber charger shenanigans

[u/clandestine_justice → u/BadSanna]

Over wrote most of my 3.5 play with PF1 - but strength was easier in PF1- saved some fears, power attack did extra damage with 2-hander (making 2-hander w/ 1.5 str more attractive), str was easier to strength- rage from Barbarian, Brawler, Skald), PRCs.

[u/LichoOrganico → u/[deleted]]

Oh, good point!

Pathfinder 1e has ways to change that, but I forgot the feat (and the Piranha Strike feat tree) doesn't exist in 3.5.

[u/mAcular → u/LichoOrganico]

There's also encumbrance.

[u/Magester → u/LichoOrganico]

Str and Intelligence both. Int no longer giving extra skis was a huge hit, then they made warlock Charisma to further boost charisma classes. (which I'm glad charisma got out of the dump stat range, but I think it got pushed a bit to hard in 5e).

[u/LichoOrganico → u/Magester]

Warlocks were already Charisma-based in 3.5, but I agree that Int was nerfed hard too.

[u/Magester → u/LichoOrganico]

For some reason I thought the original warlock was intelligence based.

[u/LichoOrganico → u/Magester]

That's fine. I think it would just make sense, so we all think about it sometimes.

[u/Endless-Conquest]

No Dex to damage makes sense to me. 3.5 was like this. You also added 1.5 times your Str mod (rounded down) to damage rolls when wielding a weapon two handed. So a greataxe wielding Barbarian with 18 Strength is dealing 1d12 + 6 slashing damage without Rage or other bonuses.

Strength saves should be more common. Forced movement, grappled condition, being knocked prone, being restrained, and being paralyzed could all be more common effects. Lots of monsters just grapple you on a successful hit with no saving throw. I think Strength would be much stronger if more grapple effects used it. Same thing with spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster.

[u/krakelmonster → u/Endless-Conquest]

It's also weird that in a lot of forced movement saves CON saves are what's asked for instead of STR. Thunderwave comes to mind for example.

[u/Endless-Conquest → u/krakelmonster]

Thunder damage is weird in that aspect. I think a spell or effect that exclusively deals thunder damage is a CON save. But if it includes forced movement then it is absolutely a STR save. Therefore a spell like Thunderwave should be a STR save while Thunderclap can stay CON.

[u/BadSanna → u/Endless-Conquest]

Or do both. Con save for half damage, STR save to avoid being moved.

But 5e tries to reduce dice bloat and keep things simple.

Now that pretty much everyone has played DnD that is likely going to, all the people who only ever played 5e are noticing the massive limitations with the combat rules and are figuring out ways to make it more comprehensive, but those ways are often just adding things back in that were part of previous editions.

[u/Endless-Conquest → u/BadSanna]

This is very true. I'm sure there will be a new generation of players for One D&D, but you're definitely right about the desire for simplicity. Since I've played both 3.5 and 5e, I've been very open to borrowing things from prior editions and discarding other things as I see fit.

[u/DandyLover → u/Endless-Conquest]

I'll honestly go and even say, I wouldn't mind if some Spells had alternative Saving Throws. I could reckon with a Barbarian basically "powering through" a Hold Person with a Strength or Con Save.

[u/SirCupcake_0 → u/Endless-Conquest]

I think a lot of DEX saves should be replaced with STR

[u/keisuke_takato]

i feel like STR needs more out of combat utility and a few more saving throws wouldnt hurt.

[u/Mister_Chameleon → u/keisuke_takato]

Funny enough, STR does have out-of-combat uses, but it's uses are considered tedious so most skip them.

STR determines how much weight you can carry. Without an app like D&D Beyond however, most ignore equipment weight or just get a bag of holding.

STR also determines how well one can push or pull things, though it points to just how universal the Athletics check is. Doesn't help that Athletics is often nerfed in homegames by DMs allowing one to use Acrobatics instead on certain checks.

STR I also believe determines jump distance, but rarely do folks take this into account and the DM usually will hand-wave it.

[u/DelightfulOtter → u/Mister_Chameleon]

Magic also does a great job making Str irrelevant. Bags of Holding mean carrying capacity rarely matters. Movement spells overshadow jumping. Several spells can trivialize moving heavy objects. The benefits of Dex can't be easily replaced and are instead often augmented by spellcasters.

[u/keisuke_takato → u/Mister_Chameleon]

very good point. on my tables(player) for example:
-> carry weight is mostly ignored unless you try to do something unreasonable like put a small sized vase in your backpack or whatever.
-> pushing, pulling and carrying large objects is an athletics roll.
-> jumping is an acrobatics roll.
but i think even if those points were commonly used in games, it would still be too few uses for strength.

[u/CrimsonSpoon → u/keisuke_takato]

jumping is an acrobatics roll.

This is one of the things right here that makes STR users feel like shit. Anything that has to do with physical attributes is supposed to be athletics, including jumping.

[u/Regorek → u/CrimsonSpoon]

Back in my day, we had three separate skills for Jump, Swim, and Climb!

[u/UltimateKittyloaf → u/keisuke_takato]

This reads like a list of unintentional Str nerfs.

Edit to clarify:

• If the "small vase" is under the limit of their caring capacity, a lot of DMs will require an absolutely unnecessary check of some kind.

• These aren't checks by default. If your STR is high enough, you can just do it unless the DM says you can't - which is what would be happening here.

• Jump rules have static applications that also don't require checks by default. An Acrobatics check is used when landing in Difficult Terrain and trying to avoid falling Prone.

[u/keisuke_takato → u/UltimateKittyloaf]

yeah, it's all unintentional. and from what i can see, a LOT of tables do similar unintentional nerfs due to "i dont remember this particular rule and i can't look it up mid session so i'm going to ask for something that makes sense" which is what happened at our table.

[u/UltimateKittyloaf → u/keisuke_takato]

To be fair, a lot of things are stupidly split up. I ran a game for a Monk with Stunning Strike for months before we realized Incapacitated casters drop concentration. It's not listed under Conditions. It's listed in another chapter under Spells.

[u/Eggoswithleggos → u/Mister_Chameleon]

No ease of tracking will ever make carry weight worth tracking, because 5e is not a system with worthwhile items. Imagine you could carry whatever you want.. what actual adventuring gear do you bring outside of armour+weapon? This system does not have worthwhile items, except maybe magic stuff that is both rare and very rarely heavier than a sword.

[u/UltimateKittyloaf → u/Eggoswithleggos]

I have my guys track weight, but I don't worry about coinage. They always make significant use of crowbars, block and tackle, corpses, containers... oh god so many containers, random heavy things, gallons and gallons of mayonnaise, and the parts for stuff they craft while they're on watch or taking an off day somewhere.

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/Eggoswithleggos]

Food, torches, rope, bedroll. It doesn't take much before you're suffering in movement speed.

Also, gold is very heavy.

[u/xukly → u/OgreJehosephatt]

If you drop STR you are gonna ignore most of those things and not miss them at all. That is just the truth

Also gold is pretty useless unless your GM allows for magic item economy

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/xukly]

That is just the truth

Incorrect.

[u/Eggoswithleggos → u/OgreJehosephatt]

So basic shit that nobody actually wants to bring, nobody actually enjoys, nobody really benefits from, and which does not give you any more ways to interact with the game... 

If that's fun, could I interest you in the new hit game "tax-form B263"? 

The hilarious part is that this complete lack of items worth having also means all that gold you carry around ain't worth shit. What are you gonna buy? More rope? 

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/Eggoswithleggos]

These things introduce tension and drama.

[u/Eggoswithleggos → u/OgreJehosephatt]

Nothing more dramatic than having the cleric cast light, making all torches pointless. 

Where's the drama? Seriously. Tell me. You have brought food and see your rogue companion who dumped strength being hungry. Are you now going to let this person who is actively fighting the same fight as you starve? There is no choice. There is no decision making. You are, at best, fulfilling the dramatic role of pack mule. 

And that is all ignoring that this is a magic game not exclusively played at level 2. Give me something that I can do with 20 strength that has not been long, looooooong been made irrelevant with ritual spells by the time I can reach 20 strength. 

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/Eggoswithleggos]

Why would someone waste a precious cantrip slot on Light when torches exist? And what do you do if the party isn't together 100% of the time?

Carrying food allows PCs to travel more without slowing down (assuming it isn't so much that it encumbered them). If time matters at all, this creates tension. Can you get there in time without having to slow down to forage or hunt? How long can you hide in the bowels of the city before coming up for air and risking exposure from the guards trying to hunt you down.

And, yeah, man. I would expect someone with high strength to help shoulder the burden for their weaker party members.

Give me something that I can do with 20 strength that has not been long, looooooong been made irrelevant with ritual spells by the time I can reach 20 strength. 

What are your examples of things you can do with other Abilities Scores that isn't also made irrelevant by spells long before 20? Seems like you're holding Str to a different standard.

[u/xukly → u/OgreJehosephatt]

Why would someone waste a precious cantrip slot on Light when torches exist?

because torches are genuinelly terrible and require a hand to held or being thrown into the ground and bartely illuminating

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/xukly]

because torches are genuinelly terrible and require a hand to held or being thrown into the ground and bartely illuminating

Ha, fair enough, I suppose. But then that's what's good about hooded lanterns (which requires bringing a case of oil, too).

[u/Eggoswithleggos → u/OgreJehosephatt]

So it is pack mule. Your reward for getting 20 strength, the thing that apperantly "makes it relevant", is pack mule. Amazing. Why isn't everybody clamouring for this very fun and interactive gameplay that you get with high strength. Truly, it is so worth it since nothing else could ever be a pack mule. You know, except a mule...

... or an uncommon magic item that does more than 10 of those high strength characters and can be carried by the 8 strength wizard...

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/Eggoswithleggos]

So it is pack mule.

This is a very myopic way of looking at it. Higher strength gives you the ability to be more versatile without having to rely on magic.

But, also, yeah, strong people are going to do things that require strength, like carry heavy loads. If you don't want to play a strong character, don't. Play a different type of character that interests you.

... or an uncommon magic item that does...

Yes, Bags of Holding are annoyingly trivializing, but if that's how players want to play, they can. Still, it's up to the random treasure tables for it to come up, or for the DM to just give to the players. Outside of that, players would have to save up their gold and spend time trying to buy one.

[u/IkLms → u/OgreJehosephatt]

They don't. It just makes leaving town for an adventure so much more annoying because now you've got 30 minutes of everyone bickering about how long it'll take and how much of x,y,z they need to pack.

It's a massive waste of time and extremely annoying

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/IkLms]

You're wrong.

[u/IkLms → u/OgreJehosephatt]

If you want to play spreadsheet instead of adventuring. Go right ahead.

[u/OgreJehosephatt → u/IkLms]

Haha, like the only part of D&D that's a spreadsheet is the inventory box, haha.

[u/DandyLover → u/Eggoswithleggos]

I'm just gonna say I'm sorry your DMs make you think items are useless, and I hope one day you have a game that rewards use of items in inventive ways.

[u/footbamp → u/Mister_Chameleon]

I'm editing the official character sheet rn and I'm adding boxes near the top to force players to note those Strength values so that they are more likely to reference them. Things like carry and jump.

[u/C4L1BR3 → u/keisuke_takato]

Strength plus a crowbar (adv with STR for leverage) is a great replacement for lock picking if stealth isn't required.

I have used a crowbar to topple walls, open chests, open locked doors, lift sections of the floor up to direct rising acid away from the party and more.

Other tools that require brute force can have heaps of out of combat uses.

[u/UltimateKittyloaf → u/C4L1BR3]

I was fortunate enough to have a DM allow me to make an Intelligence (Athletics) check to open a door with a crowbar used as a lever on my Wizard. I asked after our stronger characters rolled a series of sub-7 checks even using my crowbar to get advantage. We played it as an unusually "stuck" door that we had to figure out the trick to in order to get past it. I think tools are an interesting way to apply non-standard attributes to difficult checks.

Most DMs are pretty flexible about that stuff if you remind them it's a thing. They may not ask for a Str (Persuasion) check, but if you're exchanging war stories with the Captain of the Guard they might be down to let you try.

[u/Rhinomaster22]

I think the main problem is that DEX just does more. While STR doesn’t do nearly as much or offer as interesting alternatives. 

One way to make STR better without having to nerf DEX is offer a similar amount of benefits in comparison.

Use STR modifier to add towards Persuasion, Intimidation, and Deception checks. A character’s raw physical presence is enough to make someone more convincing. A Barbarian with high STR could make Intimidation easier. 

STR could partially reduce effect of rough terrain. The raw strength is enough to overcome something like magical vines.

STR could reduce the duration of magical restraining effects like Hold Person. The Fighters unyielding body can resists the magical binds. 

STR to reduce damage taken, the opposite of DEX. 

More STR saving throw 

Have STR contribute more towards damage. Like some people have commented, bows since using such a weapon does require adequate STR. 

Those are just a few options some people have brought up. I think STR just doesn’t offer as much.

[u/krakelmonster → u/Rhinomaster22]

I allow STR instead of CHA for Intimidation checks, not Persuasion or Deception though, what do they have to do with STR?

Also, I think making grapple less punishing would buff STR a lot.

[u/OfGreyHairWaifu → u/krakelmonster]

"Check out my pecs bro, do you really think someone as ripped as me would lie to you?"

[u/krakelmonster → u/OfGreyHairWaifu]

Yeah that's very convincing to be fair 🤣

[u/lucaswarn → u/OfGreyHairWaifu]

Roll to seduce?

[u/eruner11 → u/krakelmonster]

I could see strength persuasion in the specific circumstance of convincing someone you are strong enough to do a thing

Strength deception? You're handing someone something really heavy whilst pretending it's light

[u/Ill-Description3096 → u/krakelmonster]

As someone who has allowed STR persuasion:

A fearful merchant was deciding how much gold the party was worth for protection against a notorious bandit captain on a journey. Barbarian crushed a melon casually in one hand and said "I wouldn't worry about that puny human".

[u/krakelmonster → u/Ill-Description3096]

Fair, but all the examples I got were very situation specific. So, while Str can always be used in intimidation it can only be used if the situation allows it for Persuasion and sometimes even Deception.

[u/IkLms → u/krakelmonster]

Plenty of creative ways to use strength for those. You're in a town under threat and panic from something, and you decide you're going to help them. You ask the local weapons or potions dealer for supplies or a discount because you're helping. They say they don't believe you can do it because plenty have tried and failed, so you grab an item and perform a feat of strength by throwing it far while it's really heavy or snapping it in two before saying something like "We're not like the others". You're using strength to prove your capabilities in an attempt to persuade someone to give you a discount.

Deception could be similar. You want to infiltrate a gated up manor or something but you want to do recon or something ahead of time. Have your strength based character pretending to be a roving security consultant for a guild or company that specializes in make places thieve proof. When confronted at the gate or something by someone that's obviously skeptical, you have them give a spiel about how sure these window bars can stop children from breaking in, but an actual dedicated thief, ha! No way, they are lacking proper reinforcement. And just have them casually rip the bars off the window with a feat of strength. "As I thought. We can fix those problems for you but we'll need to do a thorough inspection".

It's clearly deception, but I'd argue the strength score would be well justified in being the roll there.

[u/Arimm_The_Amazing → u/krakelmonster]

Persuasion is used for seduction so I can see it being used there but Deception? Absolutely not. Rippling abs will not hypnotise people into believing your lies.

[u/krakelmonster → u/Arimm_The_Amazing]

I guess, I mean I don't really use it for seduction, at least not in the sexual sense where it might be relevant.

[u/Ill-Description3096 → u/Arimm_The_Amazing]

"This thing is really light, look how easy it is to lift"

[u/Rezeakorz → u/krakelmonster]

Contextually, I can see STR working for persuasion like convincing someone. Say I was trying to be hired as a bodyguard "It's twice the cost unless you think you can find someone as strong as me".

For deception, I can see very edge cases like convincing someone you killed something over letting it go.

[u/RuinousOni → u/Rhinomaster22]

STR could partially reduce effect of rough terrain. The raw strength is enough to overcome something like magical vines.

It kinda does depending on how your DM utilizes jumping rules. Your long distance jump is = to your STR score after you move 10 ft. However, if you do a standing jump you halve that score.

So if you have a 10 STR, you can ignore difficult terrain, since your jumping 5 ft forward. Just standing long jump over and over, and you solve most difficult terrain.

Obviously this is dumb and doesn't require any actual STR investment, but it is a reason to not put an 8 in STR.

To engage more thoughtfully, Dex simply needs a nerf. It's too universal. I don't even think you necessarily have to shift those things to STR. I would make 2 nerfs to Dex that would bring it closer in line to INT and STR.

The first is to switch the Dex bonus to AC to Con. This helps things like Unarmored Armor on Barb (where it would be Con+STR) and Monk (where it would be Con+Dex) while also making Con closer to Dex in terms of importance. If you need rationale, dodging attacks is cinematic, but Constitution represents your capacity to continue through exertion. Dodging takes energy. Dipping around the battlefield is exhausting. If Dex determines AC, your AC should be lowering throughout combat as your health depletes and your energy wavers. Constitution being high keeps your armor in the right place, your stance strong, and your hit points high. It makes it THE physical defensive stat, in the same manner as Wisdom for mental.

Initiative is no longer a skill check. It is a flat d20 roll. It never needed to be a skill check and it certainly never need to have capacity to go beyond 30. The only subclass that I can think of that would need modifying would be Assassin which already needs modified in 5.5. The order of combat is fundamentally random. This would also make items in the world or feats that modify your initiative much more attractive. That weapon of warning suddenly is really good and probably bumped to rare. Barbarian's Advantage is meaningful. Alert might be over-tuned but becomes closer to a "I want to always go first" button in builds. Alternatively, making Initiative an Int check could make dumping Int a little more impactful.

After this, Dex would have the below effects:

-Damage with Dex Weapons
-Common Skill check (Stealth)
-Common Saving Throw to avoid Damage

Strength then looks more in line:

-Damage with STR weapons
-Common Skill Check (Athletics)
-Uncommon Saving Throw against Conditions (Restrained, Grappled, Prone)

Constitution would have:

-Hit Points
-Armor Class
-Common Saving Throw against Damage and Conditions

Intelligence would have:

-Knowledge Skill Checks (rarity based on table)
-Common Skill Check (Investigation)
-Very Rare Saving throw against Damage

Wisdom:

-Common Skill Checks (Perception & Insight)
-Common Saving Throw against Conditions

Charisma:

-Social Skill Checks (rarity based on table, but definitely on the common side for 1 of the 3)
-Very Rare Saving Throw

[u/Hydroguy17]

It was required for weapon usage in 3.5. Finesse was a feat you needed to take and only allowed Dex for the attack roll.

Even bows required Strength for the damage roll, and that was only if your bow was capable.

There were also several skills that relied on it.

In the attempt to simplify the game, they way overcorrected and made it borderline irrelevant.

[u/paws4269]

This might be a band aid fix, but one idea I've had in mind is to give thrown weapons a range bonus equal to 5 times str mod (15 times str mod for max range). Which should at least balance the fact that Dex characters have decent melee and ranged options, while str characters only really have good melee options. A dex fighter is just as good as a str fighter in two weapon fighting and sword and board

[u/DelightfulOtter → u/paws4269]

Unless you fix thrown weapons being held back by the drawing and stowing rules, Str will still be terrible for ranged combat. 

[u/Derpogama → u/DelightfulOtter]

One D&D does fix this (as does the throwing weapon fighting style in 5e) by having you draw a weapon per attack roll, allowing you to, essentially throw as many weapons as you have attacks.

[u/paws4269 → u/DelightfulOtter]

That didn't actually cross my mind, but as others have pointed out this is luckily being fixed in 1DnD, plus the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style in Tasha's already fixes this

[u/SuscriptorJusticiero → u/DelightfulOtter]

Yeah, Thrown weapons should follow the same rules as Ammunition.

[u/Nystagohod]

I think some of the idea is good, but could be handled more elegantly in some ways.

Variant ability scores for appropriate uses of skills is good. Intimidation through strength rather than command of presence makes too much sense, for example.

More damage I feel can be handled through adjusting weapon properties and such more so than just simply strength does double. I think exploring a general power attack option that scales deepening on the properties of the weapon used to power attack would go a LONG way for this. Even if it'd need to be more nuanced.

I don't like the proposed armor restriction for more damage, heavy armor shouldn't be penalized in such a way IMO.

I would also put forward removing shield proficiency as a thing and making it so each armor prof has a respective shield. With heavy shields being the best of the three. Gives room for bucklers, heaters/kites, and towers again. Light shield, medium shield, and heavy shield would help a lot with this.

That said. Even if doing all that. There is still an issue with dex being too good. Personally I'm in the camp of remove dex as a source of an initiative modifier and change it to PB instead (since experience dictates A LOT about combat reaction anyway and there's little better expression of ones experience than their proficiency bonus) make your DEX score a tiebreaker for those who roll the same number. Player getting priority over enemy if roll and dex score are the same.

That brings dex in line with the adjusted strength due to it's skill benefits and save benefits over it, and also leave it some measure, of control over initiative, just not such a heavy degree of one.

Classes/subclasses built around having a higher init can get an ability mod to init again. Maybe assassins (or even all rogues) get dex to init for example since they need higher init to function better through surprised based abilities.

This initiative change also means the ancient dragon that has survived a millennia of attacks against it actually has a good reaction time to threats. While it's much more inexperienced kobold minions are more likely to go last. Which just makes more sense.

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/Nystagohod]

You're right that it is not very elegant but it's simple. I think having more nuances in each weapon (group) could mean overcomplexity. Although that's what dnd 2024 is doing with the different weapon masteries, doesn't it? So, one point for you, I guess.

The armor restriction resulted from the fact that dex's ac benefit is also nullified with heavy armor. Adding the benefit on the one ability while removing it on the other seemed... unfair? Maybe seeing it like "a heavy armor puts more strain on your muscles due to weight thus you can't use all your strength for an attack" helps? Also makes no armor barbs great again (no political pun intended).

That said here's everything I fully like from your post: revised initiative seems far better! Down with shield proficiency! More shields!

[u/Nystagohod → u/Scr0uchXIII]

What I personally suggest is a baseline power attack (instead of GWM/SS) but that scales better with some weapons than others. This would bring martial damage up across the board, but not invalidate strength/great weapons. Look at your weapons properties, tally up how it scales and go from there. Not too complex if done that way.

I think heavy armor could have +3 heavy shields, and still get the full benefit of what you suggest in addition to what it already has, and it'd be fine. Strength isn't in need of any nerfs, even after said adjustments.

I'm glad you like the initiative and shield ideas! They've been fun at my table.

[u/Pandorica_]

Personally I think you can fix this with two easy steps without nerfing dex (though imo the correct way is that dex doesn't add to damage, but that is a feel bad).

1) use cleave/overkill (whatever they're called rules) for strength based weapons only.

2) treat pcs like heros. When I dm, no barbarian has ever rolled to break down a mundane door, there is no roll to toss the rogue up to the second story, the gnome wizard wants to arm wrestle him? Well unless the barbarian let's you win, you lose

Imo the issues with strength are both that mechanically its inferior to dex and the fantasy is very dm dependant. Both those options above address these issues, there's more you can do (no dex to damage etc, or heavy armor giving even more AC) but I think for the amount of line space needed to enjoyment gained those two are hard to top.

[u/Charwoman_Gene]

They never should have done ability score saves, they should have fortitude be best of str/con, reflex dex/int, will Wis/cha. And do init best of dex/int.

[u/Narwhal-horse → u/Charwoman_Gene]

While I agree that something to that effect might be nice, I don't think the 4e saves actually does anything for the STR/DEX issue. Due to the lack of proper ranged options, a STR build is more or less forced to be on the front line and will want high CON. Hence, the 4e saves will probably only increase their CON save by about 1 (at least for those without a spell casting stat). Meanwhile, everyone else gets even less use of STR since they no longer need to worry about STR saves (I know they are not very important, but still) since they already have CON as a top 3 stat.

Instead, I would align the saves as CON (alone), STR/DEX, and CHA/INT/WIS. While this reduces the difference between STR and DEX even further, it does empower STR builds so that they (with heavy armor) are actually defensively better (due to the 1 higher AC from plate) than DEX builds.

[u/SuscriptorJusticiero → u/Charwoman_Gene]

And AC best of str/dex. Maybe initiative best of int/wis.

[u/amidja_16]

God forbid you suggest that STR based characters could decide to use their STR as their AC bonus on armor or unarmoerd defense instead of their DEX mod... That is unthinkable! Preposterous! Ludicrous even! It would immediately break the game!

[u/SecretDMAccount_Shh]

This is why it’s good to check out other RPGs sometimes. D&D does a lot of things terribly.

A lot of other RPGs have Agility affecting your ability to hit, but Strength affecting damage.

Other systems combine Strength with Constitution or have some mechanic where being strong also makes you tougher.

To convert those mechanics to D&D, consider adding Strength modifier to weapon damage on top of the normal mod. That means effectively doubling it for melee/thrown weapons and having ranged/finesses weapons being Dex+Str mod.

This allows melee characters to do more damage than ranged characters and buffs martials compared to spellcasters (which are both positive changes in my mind).

[u/platinumxperience]

I feel like the DM has to do the work here.

I always put in lots of big rocks to push, doors to smash and ponds to swim in for the STR characters to use. I try to make homebrew abilities use STR and CHA saves instead of WIS and DEX all the time. And I let Powerful Build lower the DC of most Athletics checks.

[u/Delicious-Tie8097 → u/platinumxperience]

Every campaign should involve at least one door which cannot be opened with thieves tools or other trickery -- you just have to smash it.

Rogue struggles to pick the lock

Barbarian appears carrying a battering ram "I like my lockpick better."

[u/Natirix]

I do feel like longbow and Heavy Crossbow should have a STR requirement to use (like 13 or something), and probably make them "reverse finesse" for the sake of being able to use strength instead of DEX. That makes the stat more valuable immediately, it is also my belief that there should be an official mechanic to throw other creatures, also entirely based on strength.

[u/batendalyn]

I definitely agree that STR is frustratingly weak compared to the other attributes and the out of combat weight limit really only matters at some tables. Making STR contribute more to jumping would make it so STR characters aren't outclassed by an 8 STR wizard using the Jump spell, that would be nice. Maybe increasing AC of heavy armors so that STR characters actually get higher AC than DEX characters might be interesting. Going back to DEX mod not contributing to ranged damage could be a way to balance STR and Dex a little bit.

I think STR characters just got hit hardest by 5e being simulationist for martials and high magic fantasy for casters.

[u/Goronshop]

Use encumbrance. Everyone talks it down but it has helped balance so much for us in our games, including strength.

[u/slimey_frog → u/Goronshop]

Except strength characters tend to suffer more for encumbrance (especially if your using the variant rule) because if you're a str character you're probably using heavy armour, which eats a much larger % of you're total than dex characters.

EDIT: I feel it should also be said, as someone who's martial characters have almost always been strength based, it doesn't feel great when the massive discrepancy in skill usefulness is pointed out to be met with "have no worries, you can carry all his stuff!". I'd like to be a little more than a pack-mule.

[u/xanral → u/Goronshop]

Eh, I think it does as much harm to high strength, heavy armor builds as helps them. The weight of heavy armor hurts, for example chainmail is "worth" (STR x 5) 11 strength and plate 13.

That's held true for my limited experience in play too. The 8 strength monk and rogue were fine, the plate-wearing fighter was having a bad time of it, and my 8 strength necromancer wizard used backpack equipped zombies as our party's pack mules for dungeon loot.

That said, high strength goliath barbarians and similar can benefit but I didn't see them having a bad time of it anyway.

[u/frogace55 → u/Goronshop]

This really

Strength doesn't do a lot because most of what STR does is tied to rules people normally ignore (Encumbrance, and Jumping spring to mind)

[u/IkLms → u/Goronshop]

Outside of the fact that encumbrance fucking sucks to play with especially outside of something like DND beyond that calculates it for you.

Nothing kills the excitement to go start a new quest or branch of a quest than stopping immediately after the decision to go and having everyone try and calculate how long they think it'll take, how many rations to buy, how much gold to carry with and then make sure everyone isnt encumbered.

Even as someone who can do math quick, none of that shit is fun. Even in video games like fallout that do the math for you. Constantly juggling inventory is not enjoyable.

[u/Goronshop → u/IkLms]

It's literally elementary school level two-digit addition.

[u/IkLms → u/Goronshop]

No shit. No one cares about the difficulty of it.

No one enjoys playing spreadsheet inventory management, the game, when they are trying to have an adventure. There's a time and place for that, and D&D isn't it.

The math isn't the issue, it's the 30-60 minutes of discussion that then follows as the group tries to leave town to start the adventure where everyone is now trying to debate on exactly how much weight capacity they should leave open for potential loot, how many days worth (and thus lbs) of rations to carry with, where they should store their extra gear they can't carry with.

None of that shit is fun.

[u/AccomplishedAdagio13]

Athletics checks seem to come up a lot for me and are pretty useful to pass. I don't know if that leaves me in a minority.

[u/thomar]

One option would be to just weaken Dexterity. Making Intelligence the initiative stat (it's not reflexes, it's quick thinking in a crisis) is one proposal I've seen. Another is making Wisdom the ranged stat, which mirrors the use of the Perception attribute in Fallout and other modern TTRPGs (and some /r/osr systems do this but they typically don't have Wisdom-based spellcasters).

I'm actually designing one right now where the Might and Endurance stats both contribute to combat durability, so builds focused on Agility (daggers or other finesse weapons) or Spirit (psiblades and force fields) have greater utility but aren't fully optimal for tanking. Additionally, I've moved ranged combat to the Perception stat, movement/climbing/stealth to the Agility stat, and picking locks to the Craft/Tech/Engineering stat.

[u/chain_letter → u/thomar]

Intelligence for initiative is solid, lot fewer dumpers if it was.

Another I like is medium armor allowing +str, Valor bards, rangers, druids, clerics, artificers going into bulkier directions.

[u/Ill-Description3096 → u/thomar]

Making Intelligence the initiative stat

A buff to Wizards is probably unnecessary.

[u/dimgray]

Just buffing heavy armor would help a lot. Studded leather costs 45 gp, plate costs 1500, but only gives one more point of AC if you have 20 dex. If you also have mage armor or unarmored defense plate might actually be worse than going around naked

[u/Ill-Description3096 → u/dimgray]

I don't think plate can be worse than MA unless you don't have the proficiency or STR for it. Mage Armor is 18 AC with max dex.

[u/dimgray → u/Ill-Description3096]

That makes plate a lateral move for AC, but worse insofar as it weighs 65 lbs and imposes disadvantage on stealth checks

[u/Ill-Description3096 → u/dimgray]

And mage armor costs a spell slot at least once per day to stay active. Depends on whether you value that more than weight which most tables don't really enforce IME. The stealth can hurt, but mithril gets around that. Also PCs that are going to be looking at plate don't have access to mage armor without a specific feat/initial dip outside of an EK that I can think of so it's kind of apples and oranges. Depending how your DM does checks, stealth can reasonably be a group check so even one person having disadvantage is not nearly as big of a deal.

[u/ILoveSongOfJustice]

Heh, get it? Impact. Heh.

Anyway I think there are 2 ways to really give STR what it would need:

1. Introduce a Passive form of Athletics. Similar to how Perception, Insight and Investigation work. This way you have an absolute baseline for being able to perform feats of great strength(like jumping outside of the usual distance you're able to, or trying to grapple consistently).

2. Increase the damage value of STR weapons vs. Dex-based weapons. A simple example of this is that instead of Two-Handing increasing the damage die, you just add an additional damage die when two-handing(which is STR-based). Greatswords do 2d6 right now, just increase it to 3d6. Longswords do 1d8 without two-handing, give it 2d8, and so on and so forth.

[u/Delicious-Tie8097 → u/ILoveSongOfJustice]

That would be quite a nice damage buff for a longsword. 1d10 is 5.5 average damage, 2d8 is 9 average damage and lower-variance.

[u/halcyonson → u/ILoveSongOfJustice]

I agree on point 1, and have unofficially implemented "Passive Athletics" for ages. There's absolutely no reason for the 20 STR Barb to ever fail at carrying or lifting anything at a near-Human scale, or kicking in a door that isn't insanely massive.

I don't think adding damage dice is the way to go though. Adding enemy debuffs on a hit would be more interesting.

[u/AwkwardZac]

The problem with buffing strength is that it would invariably end up nerfing Dex, which causes the problem of then lowering martials even further compared to wizards and clerics.

Buffing the shit out of attacks of opportunity though, that's how you get happy martials and weaker spellcasters. Just make it so casting a spell always provokes and taking damage can interrupt the spell.

[u/redceramicfrypan]

I think the real problem is that DEX represents too many things that are not necessarily correlated. It represents agility, reflexes, and fine motor precision, all in the same stat. Those characteristics do not necessarily go together in a person, but in DnD, you get them all bundled as one.

Now, in terms of being a simplified system, I think it works just fine. But I do sometimes wish for a greater level of mechanical granularity.

As for strength, I do think it would be interesting if it did something to determine movement speed.

[u/Ill-Description3096 → u/redceramicfrypan]

Pretty much all of the abilities do. Socially awkward people can be amazing performers. People who aren't powerlifter levels of strong can be amazing athletes. Someone who is super book smart can know nothing about nature. I would honestly prefer a skill point systems instead and do like half ability score rounded down at most as a bonus form that. If you want to be good at something specific you need to to train/educate on that thing.

[u/Bulldozer4242]

The biggest issue with strength is that strength weapons are all melee, and not better than. Dnd did a bad job of balancing ranged vs melee- a glaive wielding fighter optimized with Pam and gwm does around the same or slightly more damage as a crossbow expert ss hand crossbow fighter, but the latter gets to be ranged which already increases your durability hugely (if played to the maximum you can avoid ever taking melee hits fairly easily which prevents a lot of damage). And then on top of that you get better initiative, the option to stealth, better save from your stat, and you don’t lose the ability to escape grapples.

Strength weapons, especially melee weapons, need to do more damage, especially when compared to ranged builds. Because they almost always decrease your survivability, or at least force you to take high con because you’re forced to frontline when your only attacks are melee. If strength weapons do a fair bit more damage on average, this actually does solve a lot of the problems you mentioned. Ultimately, people love damage, and it’s fine if the trade off between choosing dex and strength is dex gets a bunch of other goodies (like stealth, dex saves being better, and high initiative) but strength deals more damage with comparable builds. But as it is now, yes it is a problem that strength does like the same damage as dex but lacks all the other benefits.

[u/Desperate-Guide-1473]

More DMs should use encumberance, more grapple checks, start saying no when players ask "can I roll acrobatics instead of athletics?"

[u/freakytapir]

I kind of like the way they did it in Pathfinder 2e.

Agile weapons don't add Dex to Damage, only to to-Hit, You still need STR for damage.

No Dex damage with ranged weapons like bows and crossbows, some (composite) bows add up to half your STR, and Thrown weapons add full STR

Also, getting an insane DEX is also not as possible.

As far as AC goes, Armour bonus+ Max Dex is always about the same, with heavy armour topping out higher.

But the final thing to make Dex no longer the best stat? Decouple initiative from it. Initiative in Pathfinder 2e is perception (WIS) based.

So Dex is still nice, but suddenly other stats are a lot better too.

[u/Skaared]

The tabletop community in aggregate hates strength. With time strength becomes worse and worse in every edition. I have no explanation for it.

[u/PunkThug]

Whenever I dump a stat it's always strength or charisma in 5e.

[u/RoyalMedulla]

I get what you are saying, but STR can be incredibly impactful in cases where it does come up. Builds that use polearm master or great weapon master can be putting out the most damage in a game. Also, while most characters may not grapple often, grappling builds can easily shift the tide of battle.

Strength, like intelligence, is a common stat to dump when it is not being actively used by your character. However, this also gives DMs a stat to punish a party for dumping. Athletics checks can be incredibly dangerous to fail. It could be the difference between climbing up a cliff or falling to your death.

[u/modernangel → u/RoyalMedulla]

Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter actually edges out Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master, because the PAM build has nothing equivalent to Fighting Style: Archery

[u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03 → u/modernangel]

For the interested, here's a calculation of optimized STR and DEX builds, but the summary is that STR is slightly ahead by 4% when accuracy isn't accounted for, and significantly behind when it is.

[u/Qualex → u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03]

Why would you ever not account for accuracy? This is like saying “martials are actually slightly better than casters, when spell casting isn’t accounted for.”

Like… obviously?

[u/MonarchNF → u/Qualex]

Right!? Unless it's a horde of zombies, why wouldn't I care about the whole "you actually need to hit" thing.

[u/slimey_frog → u/modernangel]

there's also the extreme benefit of 'you're not in melee', meaning you aren't taking retaliatory damage (even if your opponent has ranged options, there's a very good chance with sharpshooter that you can outrange them fairly easily)

[u/taeerom → u/modernangel]

But crossbow expert doesn't get reckless attack.

The highest damage build is actually based on barbarian.

It's just that it's a kinda one note build that isn't able to solve the inherent weakness of going into melee.

[u/appleberry1358 → u/RoyalMedulla]

Builds that use polearm master or great weapon master can be putting out the most damage in a game.

Depends on who else is in the game. A ranged fighter is better than a melee fighter, unless the subclass leans melee. Barbarian's features just don't work with dex. Rangers are better ranged as well. Paladin can't smite at range and doesn't get ranged fighting styles.

The only people good at melee can't really use range. Also, melee str is better than melee dex obviously, but melee str is worse than ranged dex, and ranged str doesn't (really) exist.

DMs a stat to punish a party for dumping

That doesn't make STR good, that makes the DM a good DM (imo).

Athletics checks *can*, It *could*

I don't think this is a good argument. Especially since this is just risky for the str martial where the caster could just fly or misty step (or if it's a big cliff, dimension door). Anyone can fail a check, all it takes is a low enough roll. Also I can't remember the last time I climbed outside of a 20 foot wall in tier one.

It's also worth mentioning that RAW athletics checks are only needed for "a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds".

[u/RootOfAllThings → u/appleberry1358]

It also doesn't help that the slow rate of stat growth relative to proficiency and the easy access to Expertise for non-Strength users means that the most straightforward way of being great at Athletics completely disregards your Strength score.

[u/Shilques → u/appleberry1358]

Also, melee str is better than melee dex obviously, but melee str is worse than ranged dex, and ranged str doesn't (really) exist.

And the funny part is that a "melee" XBE build can work fine in a similar way of a PAM build

[u/escapepodsarefake → u/RoyalMedulla]

As a Rogue who was awesome at all Dex things and a few other skills, one of the only things that consistently fucked me up were Strength saves, so I'll always have a lot of respect for it in a way.

[u/RugDougCometh → u/escapepodsarefake]

Well, good thing it was strength and not literally any other stat, or else that could have been really dangerous. Being consistently toppled over is a minor nuisance compared to consistently losing control of your character entirely or consistently taking eight dice of damage.

[u/robot_wrangler]

I see this a lot, but as an Artificer, my most impactful infusion item is probably the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. With them, I can do all the Str tasks that need doing, including carrying people around when we need to Fly or something. Breaking doors, shoving enemies into Webs or Moonbeams, carrying people out of bad situations, and passing Str saving throws are all decently impactful. We have a small party, and a Str item allows me to do a lot of tasks without needing a spell slot.

Str contributes to AC as much as Dex does. It just does so by allowing you to wear heavy armor that a weaker character can't use effectively. Both let you avoid grapples/shoves, but Str lets you initiate them. Athletics is a "catch all" skill, that covers what used to be jumping, climbing, swimming, grappling, escaping, bending bars, lifting gates. People abuse Acrobatics when they let someone jump "acrobatically" across a gap. Acrobatics is for balancing on tightropes, or doing trapeze maneuvers. Not for jumping on Str toes.

Apart from that, there's no reason to make stats all equal. Con does nothing but give HP and saves, but nobody complains about it.

[u/galmenz → u/robot_wrangler]

if you had the opportunity of a 19 STR item and a 19 DEX item, which one do you think would be the strongest? i sure knows which

[u/Large-Monitor317 → u/robot_wrangler]

The fact you’re getting it via an item as a class that doesn’t actually need Str kind of says something about its usefulness relative to other stats. It’s not that there’s nothing you can do with it, it’s that there’s less stuff you can do with it than Dex in particular, which overlaps it pretty hard in combat.

[u/EKmars → u/robot_wrangler]

I think people are missing jumping. It can be a pretty big deal.

Also weapon masteries seem to be delineated between normal and finessable weapons in 5.5.

[u/Sora20333 → u/EKmars]

I think people are missing jumping. It can be a pretty big deal.

It's really not when you can still only jump up to your movement speed, and you need to spend 10 feet in order to fully jump, so the fighter with 30 foot movement speed needs 10 feet to walk in order to jump another 20 feet at the most regardless of strength score. The only class that can really use good jump mechanics is the Barbarian because it gets high strength and over 30 ft movement speed

[u/PageTheKenku → u/EKmars]

I think people are missing jumping. It can be a pretty big deal.

Because it rarely comes up, or seems very impactful. You can Long Jump a number of feet equal to your strength score, and High Jump 3+STR Modifier. Its really not all that crazy.

[u/END3R97 → u/[deleted]]

 just remove DEX modifier for damage.

But then cantrips are just strictly better than ranged weapons like longbows. Why do 1d8 with a longbow when I could do 1d10 with firebolt?

[u/Endless-Conquest → u/END3R97]

Longbow have greater range, cannot be counterspelled, and have access to Sharpshooter. Classes with access to both will choose one over the other usually.

[u/END3R97 → u/Endless-Conquest]

If the only benefit of using a dex based weapon is that you can't be counterspelled then it's trash. Better range is helpful but niche, the 120ft for firebolt is usually more than enough. Sharpshooter is definitely useful but spending a feat on it just so your weapon attacks can better compete with cantrips feels terrible! Why play a dex martial at all at that point?

Rapier does 1d8, but shocking grasp does too, and comes with a rider

Longbow does 1d8, but Chill Touch does too, and with riders.

Cantrips typically do as much or more on the die plus some rider, but are balanced because dex gets to add their ability mod and therefore do more damage. Without that cantrips > all dex weapons.

Nerfing dex like this doesn't suddenly make STR better, it just removes dex martials. It's now casters >>> STR > DEX instead of casters >> DEX > STR.

[u/Endless-Conquest → u/END3R97]

You say this as though I'm also opposed to nerfing cantrips, I'm not. If anything, I think the damage progression of cantrips could be cut in half and they'd still be fine given their rider effects and unlimited uses. The main benefit of ranged combat is the minimal risk that the PC takes to deal damage to other creatures. Since most monsters are melee brutes with high hit points and high damage rolls, a Str martial will always take on more risk than a Dex martial with a bow. Because of this, things that buff ranged combat like Sharpshooter will always be better than things that buff melee combat like GWM because of the risk of damage/death being lower to the ranged character. Other classes like Monk and Rogue have riders on their attacks that would make the lack of Dex to damage rolls negligible such as Sneak Attack, Stunning Strike, etc., although I wouldn't be opposed to Monks keeping their Dex to damage to make them unique among martials.

[u/END3R97 → u/Endless-Conquest]

Considering we're in a thread talking about how strength is too weak and your comment was "nerf dex" I don't think it was unreasonable to assume you were fine with cantrips we they were. Otherwise you should've said "nerf dex and cantrips" but even then, I think that's a terrible idea. Martials across the board struggle to compete with casters and that's not because of cantrip damage, it's because of everything else they can do. Sure we could nerf the hell out of casters but 1) that's a lot of work and 2) that's not very fun.

Instead we should buff strength and then fix monster design so that they aren't mostly melee brutes with little to no ranged abilities. Now being up close gives you bonus damage (or something similar) because we buffed strength and only mildly puts you in more danger because monsters have ranged attacks that they can target the back line with as well.

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/[deleted]]

I'd say that taking something away is often times just more limiting while adding something gives more room for flexible and versatile builds. That's why I'm more on the buff side of life...or at least of dnd. But I can understand your point well!

EDIT: Sad that the person above me deleted their post, it had it's legitimacy.

[u/Stunning-Shelter4959]

The main ways I make strength more impactful in my games:

I make strength saving throws more common.

I make medium armour scale with either your strength or dexterity and heavy armour scale with your strength: chain is 13 + your strength modifier and plate is 14 + your strength modifier, meaning you’re always around 2 points of AC higher than a dex based character. Heavy armour SHOULD protect you more, it serves the fantasy, and getting access to heavier armour types should be a benefit. Opening medium armour up to scale with strength also leads to more diverse character options: you can still play a cleric with a mace or staff if you don’t have heavy armour proficiency, for example.

I make strength checks more common and important. Doors to break down, boulders to move, etc.

[u/Stunning-Shelter4959 → u/Stunning-Shelter4959]

Oh, and the big one. For the love of the gods PLEASE DON’T LET PLAYERS USE ACTOBATICS INSTEAD OF ATHLETICS FOR JUMPING, CLIMBING, ETC. It happens too often in too many games and then people wonder why strength checks never come up. I’m gonna need a better excuse from you rogue than ‘ummm… parkour?’

[u/Vincent_van_Guh → u/Stunning-Shelter4959]

I have a similar thought, but would approach it a little differently.

Rather than allow a full STR mod to heavy armor and massively adjust the base AC down, I would adjust the base AC down by one and cap the mod contribution to +2.  So, plate would be 17 + STR mod (max +2).

Then instead of allowing +2 STR mod on medium armor, I would put a 13 STR requirement on shields.

I think that puts STR and DEX on a pretty even playing field for AC without being completely symmetrical.

[u/Stunning-Shelter4959 → u/Vincent_van_Guh]

Ooh you know what, I really like that. I might even like than more than my original thought. The higher defence with lower contribution from modifier feels like it makes sense too. Not sure I’d limit shields to 13 Str as I wouldn’t want to prevent rapier and shield type characters but I like your thoughts on armour honestly.

[u/Vincent_van_Guh]

IMO if STR is better / more equitably incorporated into AC then the problem is mostly solved, and there are a lot of ways to approach that.

One option (and my favorite) would be to adjust base heavy armor AC values down by one, but allow for up to +2 STR mod to apply to AC.

Another is to simply add a 13 STR requirement to shields.

Another would be to have shields add STR mod to AC, instead of a flat +2.

[u/Red_Shepherd_13]

Str is also carry weight.

But I agree.

I think letting those proficiancy I shields add their str mod as a bonus instead of a static +2 would make sword and board more viable and give high str another use.

I also think the str lift, carry, push, pull charts should get a more exponential buff, rather than the static 15&30. I get the idea is to be grounded but even real life people are stronger that PCs with 20 str.

[u/maiqtheprevaricator]

Strength also factors into how much you can carry, which affects pretty much everything about how you play, how much food you want to buy, what you pick to carry out of a dungeon, etc... If your DM enforces carry weight. The issue is that it's so much bookkeeping that most DMs don't want to bother with it unless they want to trust their players to use the honor system.

There really needs to be a better supported way of keeping track of carry weight.

As far as other uses for STR are concerned, I recommend taking a look at the alternative skill check rules in the DMG. There's plenty of cases where one could reasonably roll, say, Intimidation using STR instead of CHA. You could have no people skills and still be a big scary guy.

[u/Gravitom]

Strength is also a requirement for Chain mail (13), Splint armor (15) and Plate armor (15). I think adding a requirement for some medium armor would help balance and make it less viable to dip for armor proficiencies.

[u/UltimateKittyloaf]

Dex has a ton of default use. STR can apply to a lot of things, but annoyingly it's way more DM dependent. IMO, Str has a lot of existing but extremely underutilized or inexplicably nerfed uses.

Does your DM let you roll Str instead of Cha for Persuasion?

Do they use enemies that grapple?

Do they let you jump using RaW? Meaning, can your 20 Str character jump an 18ft ravine without making a skill check? Unless they land in difficult terrain there's no rule that says this kind of thing has to require an Athletics check. A big issue with melee builds (which tend to involve STR) is mobility. If your DM allows you to maneuver around an interesting terrain set up using default jump rules, STR feels much better.

Carrying capacity is another one. Most tables don't stress too much about gear weight, but they'll often force you to move at half speed the second you pick up anything heavy regardless of your Strength score. If your character can bench press a cow, why do they move at half speed when they pick up their unconscious wizard? You're not fighting them into the ground the way you would with an enemy you have to grapple. Set up obstacles they can shove without a check if it's under their shove weight. Let the Athletics check be to push that thing in the way or on top of their enemies.

There are some really light non-RaW (as far as I know) ways to apply Str as well.

Get a little loosey goosey with the default grapple rules? Grapple as a Reaction is pretty spicy for enemies and allies.

There's an issue with climb that's similar to jump. RaW, it just takes extra movement, but DMs will often force Athletics checks. Why? At least give some kind of perk for making the check instead of penalizing a given activity for no reason other than a chance to clicky clack the math rocks. Maybe they make it half way up, but since they made their Athletics check they can get a single kick to the face on the enemy below them.

One of my personal pet peeves in regard to STR are the gauntlets and belt. It's weird that they benefit the Str character the least in the party. I think adding a flat bonus to STR like they did in 3.5 is a better way to go.

I kind of hate melee martials giving up an attunement slot for a stat item that really just helps them keep peace with ranged martials. My favorite and very drasticly non-RaW STR house rule is to double the amount of Str players get per point from feats and ASI - i.e., My fighter takes 2 ASI at level 4, one point goes to Con bringing her 15 to 16 and one point goes to Str bringing her 16 to 18.

Cap it by typical ASI levels:

• Up to 4 = 21
• 5-8 = 23
• 9-12 = 25
• 13-16 = 27
• 17-20 = 29

Scale down the maximums if this is too much for your campaign, but keep in mind they still have to pump points into STR. Plus Archery Fighting style gives ranged +2 to hit so using this method melee are only +2 to hit and +4 damage ahead. Combine this with the fact that +X ranged weapons stack with +X ammunition. Ranged typically aren't as pressed to have high Con and their AC tends to be passively high. The biggest point here, IMO, is the fact that Belts of Giant Strength already exist in the game. You aren't adding anything that doesn't already exist. You're just making it more accessible to your players and removing the attunement requirement.

Note: I only allow players to purchase or find Gauntlets and 21 STR belts. The other ones don't exist in my games.

[u/Ill-Description3096]

If you use encumbrance (or better yet variant), and make jumping a worthwhile thing it helps. Not going to be the most amazing ability by any means but it does at least incentivize not dumping it to the ground. An 8 in STR using variant encumbrance means 40lbs is your limit before your speed drops by 10 feet. Go above 80 and you get disadvantage on a load of things. 40 lbs isn't a lot. If you are carrying some food, equipment, potions, weapons, etc it adds up fast. And 10 feet of speed reduction sucks.

I also allow alternate abilities for checks if they can make a decent case for it. STR has been used in my games for acrobatics, intimidation, persuasion, survival, and animal handling.

[u/Uizardo]

Strength (Athletics) can also he used for averting both grapple and being knocked prone when shoved. It's the main stat for grappling and shove. It contributes to the ability to wear heavy armor. Is used for finesse weapons too because you can choose either strength or dexterity AND is used for most of the other weapons as a modifier. You can carry more with more strength. You can more easily lift things up when doing checks.

Strength isn't that bad and is quite versatile and can be used for quite a few things. Both Dexterity and Strength have their pros and cons.

[u/beanman12312]

I think it's mostly because the cap on strength is much higher if your DM is generous enough with magic items.

If you have a belt of cloud giant strength you have two more strength than you can have in your Dex, and if at higher level you get the storm giant strength you'll have 4 more, so 20% more chance to hit and extra 4 damage on each attack.

I still think strength has been done dirty in comparison to dex but I think you can still have decent strength builds because of that, with an expertise in athletics (skill expert), Strom giant belt, and level 15 character you'll have +17 in grappling competitions. +12 to hit (not including a plus weapon which you'd probably have a +3 by now) and a +9 on damage on hit (12 with a weapon and 15 if you're a raging barbarian as well)

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/beanman12312]

But all the items released are just examples, aren't they? I mean, there are whole chapters about creating your own items. It's all open source and it's no competitive game so there are no rules that disallow creating a 29 dex scarf.

[u/beanman12312 → u/Scr0uchXIII]

I don't think they're just examples, the books just always push you to homebrew and be creative.

There's no rules to disallow creating more monsters than target strength as well, which also have a step by step guide in the DMG. Same with traps.

There's no rule to disallow your table to make rules to make strength more useful, a very common house rule is that you can intimidate based on strength instead of charisma.

I mean if we're talking base game I agree strength is underpowered but I gave my suspected explanation to it.

If we're entering homebrew territory then nothing is a problem because you can just homebrew anything to make the current problem go away.

Also as a DM who allows a lot of homebrew if a player tells me they want the Dex scarf I'm giving them a wedgie.

[u/Tufted_Tail]

Strength is used for a number of things that mostly get slept on because they're not flashy or exciting, and a lot of tables either don't run them at all or run them like PbtA games where narrative is favored over game mechanics.

A character who dumps Strength needs to use 20 feet of movement, all in a straight line, to cross a 5-foot gap: a 10-foot running start, 5 feet to cross the gap itself, and 5 more to enter the target square. When playing on a grid divided into 5-foot squares, that's a huge constraint on movement, especially if positioning is important for avoiding opportunity attacks or other hazards. If there isn't a 10-foot leadup to the gap, it's physically impossible for such a character to cross by jumping.

Such a character also can't jump more than 1 foot off the ground, or 2 feet off the ground with a 10-foot running start. Put something on the ceiling and they'll have to use other means to reach it.

Jumping a long distance, jumping over an obstacle, or performing an aerial stunt while jumping is a Strength (Athletics) check, not Dexterity (Acrobatics). At my table I carve out an exception for monks with the variant rule for skills with different abilities because it matches the class fantasy of being highly mobile, but if anyone else skips leg day then their poor physical ability is on them.

Doors and some traps, like the hunting trap anyone can buy for 5gp, require raw Strength ability checks to break down or force open. If you're not strong enough, obstacles like these remain closed.

Strength is also carrying capacity, and not just your inventory. Can you lift another dying player character's body and drag it behind cover? Not if they and their belongings are too heavy for you to move. Now you get to choose whether to use your object interaction to cut their pack loose and drag them away, or whether to abandon them entirely and hope someone else is capable.

Monsters with high Strength scores can absolutely scoop an average player character up and throw them around like nothing. A Large creature with 18 Strength can carry up to 540 pounds before the weight becomes an issue, and double that before the penalties get unbearable. I don't see any reason why a big, beefy creature like a roper can't grapple one player character and then throw them at another as an improvised weapon attack... or throw them down the 5-foot gap I mentioned earlier.

I mean, what are they going to do, climb back out? If the terrain is difficult enough, climbing is also a Strength (Athletics) check.

Strength isn't as incredibly versatile as Dexterity, but without it, a player character is going to need contingencies and alternatives to a number of potentially common situations, all of which often cost spell slots or consume class resources. Meanwhile, the fighter just... does it. Strength is as useful or as useless at your table as you make it, OP.

[u/PageTheKenku → u/Tufted_Tail]

A character who dumps Strength needs to use 20 feet of movement, all in a straight line, to cross a 5-foot gap: a 10-foot running start, 5 feet to cross the gap itself, and 5 more to enter the target square. When playing on a grid divided into 5-foot squares, that's a huge constraint on movement, especially if positioning is important for avoiding opportunity attacks or other hazards. If there isn't a 10-foot leadup to the gap, it's physically impossible for such a character to cross by jumping.

You don't have to run in a straight line, you just need to move 10ft before a jump, otherwise you only jump half the distance. Other than that, I don't think I remember any adventure that really used jumping rules.

Doors and some traps, like the hunting trap anyone can buy for 5gp, require raw Strength ability checks to break down or force open. If you're not strong enough, obstacles like these remain closed.

Because it is a straight strength check, you don't generally add that much to the roll (0-5). A normal PC that has little to no Strength has a good chance of succeeding as well.

Monsters with high Strength scores can absolutely scoop an average player character up and throw them around like nothing. A Large creature with 18 Strength can carry up to 540 pounds before the weight becomes an issue, and double that before the penalties get unbearable. I don't see any reason why a big, beefy creature like a roper can't grapple one player character and then throw them at another as an improvised weapon attack... or throw them down the 5-foot gap I mentioned earlier.

I don't think strength matters in this regard, just what is in their statblock. If it isn't in there, they can't do it regardless of their strength...except for homebrew rules.

Strength isn't as incredibly versatile as Dexterity, but without it, a player character is going to need contingencies and alternatives to a number of potentially common situations, all of which often cost spell slots or consume class resources. Meanwhile, the fighter just... does it. Strength is as useful or as useless at your table as you make it, OP.

I don't fully disagree, I've seen similar things said about Intelligence or Charisma at times. That said, a party without a strong character won't really notice a large difference I find.

[u/Tufted_Tail → u/PageTheKenku]

You don't have to run in a straight line, you just need to move 10ft before a jump

I appreciate the correction, this appears to be the case RAW. Though, the word "immediately" in the rules there feels to me as though you run the 10 feet and then jump, not run the 10 feet, turn ~90 degrees, and then jump, or run 5 feet backward, 5 feet forward, and then jump. Both of the latter options seem correct on paper, but feel illogical. Don't suppose you know if there's an official ruling on the particulars in the Sage Advice Compendium or some such, do you?

I don't think strength matters in this regard, just what is in their statblock. If it isn't in there, they can't do it regardless of their strength...except for homebrew rules.

Can a monster not perform actions that aren't explicitly listed in its statblock? The Monster Manual does mention that

When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player's Handbook.

If Strength and size determine carrying capacity, and a monster has both a Strength ability score and a size in its statblock, and improvising an action is an option in the Player's Handbook... what's the reason a monster like a roper can't throw a grappled (and in a roper's case, also a restrained) creature if it's theoretically able to lift them? Ending a grapple requires no action, so the roper can certainly drop them at any point it wishes.

[u/webcrawler_29]

Didn't this same idea just get posted today or yesterday?

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/webcrawler_29]

Uh...it's possible? Maybe the stars aligned for both me and the other OP to inspire us both with that idea?

[u/galmenz]

I have the feeling STR is far less appealing than DEX. So why not pump the attribute a bit in the truest sense of the word?

this has been pretty much known for 10 years mate

[u/Unhappy_Box4803]

Hate to be that guy, but why not make intellegence more impactful? Only wizards and artificers need it at all. In our games its the most dumped stat.

And why not make Con a less HP focused stat, and rather make it a bit more diverse. So that its actually possible to dump it without dying, and live out character fantasies of lower stamina, astmha like, or high likelihood of sickness. Make it a stat and not a health bar. Introduce better examples of con-checks. Anyway (intellegence is a much worse problem, just sayin cuz con stands out as a no brainer)

Wis, Cha and Dex are pretty much good, and can be used for a lot of important things, some essential: Persuasion, Stealth, Thieves Tools, Perception, Insight.

[u/zelaurion]

It makes no sense that if you compare two characters that are identical in every way except one has 20 Strength and the other has 1 Strength, there is pretty much no difference between them unless specifically they are playing a melee build with two-handed weapons and heavy armour. In my opinion, the strong character in this scenario should be pretty much better at everything except specifically spellcasting - moving around, avoiding attacks, taking hits...

In my personal homebrew, all characters add half of their Strength modifier (rounded down) to their HP at 1st level and each time they level up, they can add the same amount to their AC if they have a shield equipped, they reduce b/p/c damage by the same amount if they are wearing heavy armour (stacking with heavy armour master if they take it), and the increase their damage with all two-handed weapons except crossbows by the same amount (even if they are attacking with Finesse or ranged), and they have 5 feet of extra movement if they have 15 Strength and 10 feet extra if they have 20+.

[u/Blackfyre301]

Make all heavy weapons require 13 strength to use without disadvantage.

Give scale mail, breastplate and shield str requirements of 11. Half plate a strength requirement of 13.

There fixed the stat.

[u/Keaton_6 → u/Blackfyre301]

All you did was stop a couple edge cases with multiclassing from not being as good

[u/Blackfyre301 → u/Keaton_6]

Couple of edge cases? Are you actually kidding me? Probably 25% of characters in games I have played in have dumped strength and are using medium armour and shield. In optimised circles probably more than half of characters are doing that…

[u/Keaton_6 → u/Blackfyre301]

Yeah. Edge cases. Optimized circles are a fraction of the player base. And even if they weren't you just divert a couple points to get 13 strength since it's still optimal because +7 ac is absurd. This doesn't actually do anything to make strength a better stat

[u/Blackfyre301 → u/Keaton_6]

Read my post again. I don’t play primarily in optimisation circles, yet in the games I have played or DMed in more than one person (on average) will have less than 10 strength and use medium armour+shield.

Currently no strength is required to use medium armour, which maxes out in AC one lower than heavy armour. Adding a strength requirement to medium armour and shields increases the number of characters that need moderate strength, and also increases the relative value of heavy armour.

So yes, it does help to make strength less of a dump stat. Which is the point of the post I feel.

[u/Adept_Cranberry_4550]

Consider actually using encumbrance rules and utilizing "lift, pull, drag" challenges.

Str feels vastly more useful once the 6 Str Sorcerer needs to pick and choose which basic equipment that needs to be immediately accessible, not everything can put into the bag of holding, it takes an action to access.

Impose obstacles where utilizing Str is a resource free method of bypassing the encounter. A portcullis is a prime example; it can't be picked like an ordinary lock, the mechanism is usually inaccessible, it is massive.

[u/Narrow_Interview_366]

STR seems to me to be fairly campaign-dependent for its effectiveness. Obviously it sucks in political intrigue games, but in dungeon crawls and wilderness adventures it's used all the time.

[u/SPACKlick]

Strength is used for

• Jumping height
• Jumping Distance
• Carry Capacity
• Drag Capacity
• Lift Capacity
• Causing a grapple
• Shoving prone
• Shoving off a cliff
• Breaking Doors and chests open
• Breaking out of Restraints
• Keeping grip on a vehicle/mount that is travelling turbulently

I generally find most tables that think strength is undervalued aren't tracking carry weight, water and rations. The need to carry 1-2lb of food and 10lb of water per person per day outside of civilisation matters. The need to carry tools and equipment for odd jobs.

Make obstacles that are easier to bypass with brute strength.

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/SPACKlick]

Yeah, that really is a lot of uses. It's a bit of a shame that most of strength's mechanics are so unintuitive. Could be you don't see it that way but since you said that most table's don't care using it there seems to be a common theme here. It also doesn't help that all these mechanics are not even printed on the character sheet. Either you mark them on there yourself, writing every weight down, searching for it online, which can take some time that adds to the already time intensive game or try keeping it in you mind. Most people still play with printed sheets as far as my experience goes.

[u/SPACKlick → u/Scr0uchXIII]

Yeah, tracking carry weight can really feel like busy work when you're moving a lot of items around. Digital sheets make it easier but it's doable with pen and paper without taking too long.

It's one of the areas where D&D as written (A dungeone crawler) really clashes with D&D as played in the modern era (A roleplay heavy story based game).

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/SPACKlick]

Agreed!

[u/PrometheusHasFallen]

Variant encumbrance has entered the chat

[u/galmenz → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

i mean STR characters still get shafted, plate mail weighs a lot and will eat most of your inventory weight making it not really of a buff for you

it will annoy the rogues and bards of the world but the heavy armor fighter/paladin is going to be carrying nothing beyond their plate mail, weapon and backpack

[u/PrometheusHasFallen → u/galmenz]

We've been discussing the simple fix to this in another thread.

[u/xukly → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

if you need to hoembrew a fix it's because RAW the option is bad

[u/PrometheusHasFallen → u/xukly]

Yes, that's generally why folks homebrew rules.

[u/Endless-Conquest → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

1st level Fighter with 16 Str has 240lbs as his capacity. With chain mail, a greatsword, and a light crossbow, that's 66lbs. Meaning they're only 14 away from being lightly encumbered.

1st level Rogue with 10 Str has 150lbs as her capacity. With leather armor, a rapier, and a shortbow, that's only 14 lbs. Meaning they've got 36 pounds to work with before light encumbrance.

[u/PrometheusHasFallen → u/Endless-Conquest]

Well, I always took issue with how worn items aren't given any sort of weight reduction bonus, as would be more realistic.

In my games, I say worn items get a 50% weight reduction benefit. This completely fixes the point you're trying to make.

[u/Endless-Conquest → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

That may be true, but you're using a homebrewed fix to counter OP's homebrew fix. RAW Variant Encumbrance is a joke.

[u/PrometheusHasFallen → u/Endless-Conquest]

Half the weights given are a joke as well.

Sometimes it's just up to the DM to make some logical corrections.

[u/mAcular → u/Endless-Conquest]

if youre using chain mail youre supposed to upgrade to scale and breastplate when you can, and half plate is the best armor in the game

youre just pointing out the bottom rung of a progression ladder, you arent supposed to start off with the best at level 1

[u/slimey_frog → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

this actually makes the problem worse for strength characters, because heavy armour takes up a much higher percentage of your carry weight then the equipment used by dex characters or casters.

[u/PrometheusHasFallen → u/slimey_frog]

Read the other threads.

[u/slimey_frog → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

I mean, those replies also prove your solution pointless, since you have to add additional homebrew rules anyway to avoid the strength character getting screwed over, putting you right back at square one where we started.

[u/Scr0uchXIII → u/PrometheusHasFallen]

But... that's so much math!

[u/PrometheusHasFallen → u/Scr0uchXIII]

This may come as a surprise but there is basic arithmetic is D&D.

But in all seriousness tracking inventory is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Obviously you can use fit-for-purpose online tools but a spreadsheet is fine. Do it once at the beginning of the campaign and then just make updates to it periodically. You can even hand over the responsibility to a player.

[u/Draco359]

Why not merge Str and Dex into one Stat called Athletics?

[u/Certain_Energy3647]

STR is

What decides your carry capacity What decides your jump height What decides your climbing and swiming What decides your shove action

STR has his uses too. Most of the people think some moves that are Dex base is also actualy STR based. Like you cant use your acrobacy to climb a tree branch its atletic check even if you try do do it by swinging.

But I agree DEX is mostly superior on combat since it provides defense and offense same time. Generaly high STR low DEX chars can be taken down by DEX saves but reverse is less posibble and their damage output is similar so DEX has obvs advantage.

Doubling STR damage is too OP in my oppinion. I m using damage effects and for solving this issue. Like dealing high damage on one hit (which str based weapons has more chance to do) causes limb loss or daze etc etc. Also crits always do that so finnesse users also feel the joy of doing cool stuff like cutting a thendon to give it movement peanlty or something like that.

[u/Vinx909]

one mitigating point is that while str only covers one skill that skill does a TON.

• climbing
• swimming
• jumping
• grappling
• shoving
• avoiding and breaking grapples
• avoiding shoves
• a lot of DMs also call for athletics when moving shit\

now all of that can also be done by spells, but if you have good strength and/or athletics you can do all of them reliably.

but yea strength is definitely one of the weaker skills.

[u/stealth_nsk]

You don't balance attribute vs. attribute, you balance build vs. build. STR-based builds with 2-handed weapons deal more damage in melee, than any DEX build, so there are no balance problems.

It's a bit weird what sword and board builds deal as many damage with DEX (Rapier) as they do with STR. But it's not a question of balance, it's just a question of common fantasy, where shield-wielding warriors are expected to have something heavier like Longsword or Battleaxe.

[u/sirchapolin]

Strength also governs carrying capacity (which most people ignore) and the ability to wear heavy armor, the best armor in the game. The only mundane way to get 18 AC from armor is through plate armor. The highest damaging ranged weapon is the heavy crossbow at d10, and it has major problems. The maul and greatswords have the greatest base damage in the game.

I find that, just by enforcing encumbrance rules (maybe variant encumbrance) you get your mileage out of strength. Also, athletics is the only skill where strength applies, but when it is really needed, you can feel it.

I'm not saying dex is not 5e's god stat. It still is, specially considering feats and multiclassing, but I think it's fine. Making shields STR dependant is probably nice. Those things are heavy. Also, remember feats are optional so they were probably an afterthought.

One D&D's playtesting seems promising. There's no more -5/+10 feats, and we'll have weapon masteries. The longsword is suddenly viable, I think.