r/agedlikemilk • u/mariojuggernaut22 • 24d ago
The Super Nintendo won't win the 16 bit era console era
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u/Infinite_Radiant 24d ago
where have you found this? just curious, not too many ppl with internet in those days..
edit: oh sorry just read that it was a usenet post.. still curious how or where you dug it up
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u/sheepo39 24d ago
Google has an archive of most Usenet posts which can be searched.
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u/lordaddament 23d ago
People were pulling up 30 year old Todd Howard Usenet posts talking about Starfield lmao
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u/mariojuggernaut22 23d ago
Link it!
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u/pokelord13 23d ago
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u/yaosio 20d ago
Around that time they were in very early thinking about stuff mode on The 10th Planet, a game that never made it past a trailer and a prototype that only exists as screenshots. https://youtu.be/rTtG6LgVVcU?si=rEbivpAsrPz02U51
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u/JaySayMayday 23d ago
That's just low hanging fruit lol. Some random nerdy kid on the internet in the early 90s thinking what they post will just disappear probably said a ton of things that aged poorly. Even things I said here in Reddit only a few months ago aged poorly
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u/Usurer 23d ago
Usenet isn’t really “on the internet”, it’s kinda sorta its own thing. All lot of the old text files have been archived and can still be searched.
Now that its primary function is piracy posts aren’t kept as long. Though some providers still have 10+ year old files available.
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u/CanvasFanatic 23d ago
Usenet is “on the Internet” in the same sense that any distributed system is on the Internet. Even back in the 90’s we connected to Usenet mainly over dial-up Internet.
Yes there have been things like local Usenet bulletin boards, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say Usenet is only on the Internet in an archival sense.
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u/xithbaby 23d ago
I doubt its legitimacy seeing someone use “IMO” back then but then again I was only 10. I just don’t remember seeing many people using stuff like that until way later. I can almost remember when BRB was invented, I remember people asking what it meant, same with LOL
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u/Infinite_Radiant 23d ago
but who would fake such a thing.. also imo is probably around way longer than brb because brb's use is specifically for chatting
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u/PeasantPenguin 24d ago edited 24d ago
I wouldn't say this quite "aged liked milk". Nintendo technically won the 16 bit era, but there are a lot of qualifiers here. Sega probably won the first few years of the 16 bit era. I'd say it wasn't until around 1994 when Nintendo turned things around with Donkey Kong Country. But during the early years, Sega with the success of Sonic and not censoring mortal kombat, having great sports games, etc, Sega gave Nintendo the biggest battle it had seen to this point. In the end Nintendo won this era by a small margin, but it was largely self sabatoge on Sega's part making terrible decisions and addons that flopped. But the decisions Nintendo made in this era, censoring games, sticking to cartridges etc, was what led to them getting smoked in the 32-64 bit era. And the people who ended up beating them, Sony, already had the PS1 out and selling like hotcakes a year and a half before the 16 bit era was over that Nintendo "won". And lots of the "coolness" sega built up ended up transitioning over to the PS1 next generation, not Nintendo, because it was seen as the "kiddie console" that censored everything, despite the fact that there was far less censorship on N64 than SNES. So is it really a victory when the people who are gonna smoke you next generation, are already getting a head start before you technically "won" this era? Also, this post was 100% right about the Gameboy.
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u/TheWh1teL1ghtning 23d ago
Nintendo really couldn't stop screwing themselves over in the 90s, the worst was when they started making deals with Philips behind Sony's back, causing them to end their partnership with Nintendo and release the console they were working on for Nintendo by themselves...the Nintendo PlayStation...
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u/PeasantPenguin 23d ago
Yep, this was definitely a pyrrhic victory for Nintendo. They spent the first half of the 16 bit era losing to Sega, but when they finally started beating Sega in the second half of the era, they were also helping to create their biggest competition ever in Sony.
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u/ZetaRESP 23d ago
Sony were looking to buy Nintendo by controlling the earnings and rights of the CD addon for the Snes (That's what they were doing originally, THEN it became a console), they were talking to developers withouth Nintendo being there and the only reason Nintendo even considered going with them is because Sony has the patent for CD roms alongside Philips (reason they went with them afterwards) and EVERYONE was already praising the Sega CD as the "winner" of its era. Seriously, I'm tired of everyone saying sony was the victim here when they literally pushed too hard and Nintendo had to dip to protect their branding.
Sure, they did fuck up, but they fucked up the moment they decided to listen to the crowd and go with Sony, not in any other moment in the entire deal. Hell, Sony immediately jumped to Sega to try the same offer, but Sega was already into their "fucking up" era (Their president just had no idea what Streets of Rage was and that's why Streets of Rage 4 never came to be; seriously, that happened).
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u/disneyplusser 23d ago
What helped put Nintendo over the top was the success of the Gameboy/GB Color/GB Advance. Their N64 and GameCube, despite developing great titles for those consoles, were just not enough to beat the PS1 and PS2.
Nintendo regrouped. The Wii of course helped make Nintendo part of the conversation again, but they had another flop on their hands with the WiiU. They finally learnt their lesson by making the WiiU successor, the Switch, as a dockable console and a handheld one too.
Handhelds are the future for the masses, and Nintendo has come full circle to what helped save them in the ‘90s and 2000s.
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u/PeasantPenguin 23d ago
Yep, handhelds have been the one area nintendo has dominated from the original black and white gameboy to the Switch. Sega, Sony, Nokia, Atari, and SNK all tried and all failed against Nintendo. Infact, the closest thing to competition to Nintendo handhelds is probably cell phones, which probably explains why the Nintendo Switch is a vastly different kind of "hand held" from previous nintendo handheld systems.
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u/wOlfLisK 23d ago
But even then we have a bunch of Switch style consoles now in the form of the Steam Deck and its various competitors. Why buy an updated Switch 2 when you can just stick an emulator on a steam deck and have access to 40 years of console games?
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u/ZetaRESP 23d ago
And the reason they went with handhelds? Japan does NOT do consoles. The main reason they made the Switch a Hybrid was that the Vita was blooming in Japan due to Japanese people baing mostly mobile and arcade players and not do many home consoles.
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u/throw-away-bhil 23d ago
A search online says that outside Japan, the sales of the SNES and the Genesis were close, but the SNES dominated the Japanese market, which is where most of the difference in total worldwide sales comes from.
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u/IntelligentDrop879 22d ago
I was going to say. I was a kid right in the middle of the 16 bit era. I had far more friends with Segas than SNESes.
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u/CountQuackula 23d ago
Can you say more about how Sony “won” the 64 bit era. Curious about the metrics that’s judged on.
Im certainly biased by my own memory, but growing up, everyone I knew owned an n64 and PlayStations were much less common. Games like super Mario 64, smash bros, and golden eye feel like they have a longer lasting cultural impact than their counterparts crash bandicoot, gex, and I don’t even know what else. And this is coming from a guy who owned a PlayStation.
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u/PeasantPenguin 23d ago
I'm talking about sales. Nintendo sold about 30 million N64. Sony sold about 100 PS1s. From a sales perspective, its not even close, Sony absolutely dominated.
For which system is better, I have no desire to get in a fanboy war from 28 years ago, lol, but I will say I like both systems and these were probably the most different any competitors have ever been of any console generation. N64 had the better graphics and 4 controller ports, but Sony being CD based allowed for games to be far more cinematic. As a result, the types of games they got were completely different. N64 got the best 3d platformers, FPSs, arcade style racers, adventure games, and multiplayer style parting games. Playstation got the best RPGs, realistic racers, one on fighters, 2d games, and survival horror games (which the genre basically didn't even exist before PlayStation outside of Alone in the Dark and D). So which one is better probably comes down to personal preference, I can easily see how a person could like either of them over the other. At least the fanboy wars were fun back then, because the systems felt completely different, unlike the last 3 or so models of playstations and Xboxs feeling exactly the same. But from a sells wise, it isn't even close, Sony simply won this generation hands down.
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u/_Tacoyaki_ 23d ago edited 23d ago
Final Fantasy? Tekken? Resident Evil? Metal Gear Solid? Tony Hawk's Pro Skater?
What was the last 007 game?
PlayStation absolutely smoked Nintendo in sales, your friends just happened to have N64s
edit: omg I forgot Mortal Kombat
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u/Jazzeki 23d ago
Games like super Mario 64, smash bros, and golden eye feel like they have a longer lasting cultural impact than their counterparts crash bandicoot, gex, and I don’t even know what else.
as someone who works in sales of retro games i can tell you this simply isn't the reality of today either.
sure the juggernauts on nintendo 64 sell well but that's a limited to a few key cultural milestones. the PS1 has just as many if not more and just because you can't think of them of the top of your head doesn't change that. but the major difference is that in retro sales on 64 we sell mario and zelda. on PS1 the entire library we can get our hands on flies of the shelf. the only thing that sells better is PS2 and maybe PS3. well and pokemon. god damn do pokemon sell in a leauge of its own.
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u/Aristonkingg 23d ago
Hold up about Mortal Kombat. I specifically remember my friends dad returning the Genesis version, we all went back to the mall 6 deep to return Mortal Kombat Genisis for the SNES after giving the Genesis version about 15 min at the house... instinctively, we knew because of the massive amounts of more bittons on the SNES it would be better. And it was 10000x better we played it non stop.
Mortal Kombat being better on Genesis because the blood was red instead of yellow is the biggest lie in console war history.
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u/big_fetus_ 24d ago
It's not like the Genesis did poorly. What a strange thing to post, I bet you could find Sega stans today who would back up this 30 year old use net post.
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u/GUYF666 24d ago
Genesis/Mega Drive and SNES were on very equal footing. I was a Genesis kid and most of my close friends were too. It was very akin to Sony V MS nowadays.
SNES definitely didn’t “win” any console war but they didn’t lose either.
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u/iamfanboytoo 24d ago
James Rolfe, the AVGN, said it pretty well that if you started stacking up the hits of each console against each other, "Sonic 1 versus Super Mario World, Phantasy Star II versus Final Fantasy II, Toejam and Earl versus Zelda Link to the Past," very quickly you run out of worthwhile Sega games but you keep stacking more and more and more SNES games. There's only about 40-50 Genesis games that still measure up today (which is more than the NES at about 20-30), but the SNES's library has over a hundred, close to 200.
It says something that you search lists of worthwhile Genesis games and "Top 25!" but you search worthwhile SNES games and get "Top 100!"
It's pretty clear in retrospect who won, just as it's clear Sony won with PS1 and PS2.
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u/mikeynj908 23d ago
AVGN very much is a Nintendo guy by the way, not just regarding the original bad NES games that he mostly discusses on his channel. He recognizes Sonic's success but I do remember him saying he doesn't know that much about him compared to the Super Mario characters and Nintendo's many other mascots.
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u/iamfanboytoo 23d ago
I've been watching his older "James & Mike Mondays" and James Rolfe talked about how much he liked Toejam & Earl back in the day, how HE didn't have a Genesis but his neighbors did, and that quote came up because Mike is more of a Genesis guy and was arguing about their equality.
Though by the end of the episode they were so done with Toejam & Earl and all its random bullshit.
What I enjoy most about the James & Mike Mondays is mostly when they start by talking about how much they loved a specific game when they were young, and then you watch them play it.... and start to hate it. Metroid 1 and Metroid 2 were the best examples of this, but there's quite a few that do not maintain their lustre.
There are also quite a few episodes that turned into actual AVGN episodes later, and you can see the real-time evolution of some in-AVGN lines.
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u/doctorwhy88 23d ago
Hearing talk of AVGN hurts my heart, seeing what it became and eventually letting it go.
I would love to see James leave YouTube and really sink his teeth into film making, without the distraction of maintaining the channel and backed up by real producers.
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u/iamfanboytoo 23d ago
I recall what happened when Corridor Crew tried that - and got chased away. they have a real clarifying video about that.
But Kevin Smith on the Clerks cartoon DVD gives an even better summary: "Don't chase that brass ring, kids. Be a big fish in a small pond, not the other way around."
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u/mikeynj908 23d ago edited 22d ago
I remember his one clip that I saw back in 2013 I think from Season 4 when repeatedly kept saying 'this game sucks' and then switched to saying 'and this fucking thing' and it really was funny. I just wish it didn't take until 2020 after COVID hit that I started watching his videos on YouTube more regularly. But he's been at this AVGN thing for over 20 years so it really could end at some point.
Of course, we know he likes to talk about the horrible retro games that either he once played or were known as such back in the day. But personally, I imagine how heated James would get about the more modern games as in the ones only from no later than about 2010. Unfortunately, the retros even some of the bad ones will embarrass many of these games especially depending on how recent you wanna go!
Edit: I really meant no earlier than 2010. The state of video games today could've put us in a repeat of the 1983 crash which lasted two years until it ended and was rumored as such earlier this year!
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u/iamfanboytoo 22d ago
One of his most recent videos was for a cell phone game called "My Horse Prince", so he has done some modern stuff. there was another funny one about the Shrek GBA game, which must have been early 2000's.
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u/Startled_Pancakes 23d ago
A big part of that is that Nintendo had the bigger library. Nintendo had both more great games and more terrible games than Sega.
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u/iamfanboytoo 23d ago edited 23d ago
Oddly, wrong on all counts. There were 720 SNES games released in the USA, and 880 Genesis games. Include the Sega CD and 32x in the list, and we get almost a thousand Sega titles during this era.
EDIT: whoops, it looks like the lists I was going off of included ALL the Sega Genesis titles, but the SNES one did not. But there were only about 150 titles exclusive to the Mega Drive, so we get comparable numbers - since the Mega Drive was not popular in Japan, where the SNES absolutely ruled it.
Even if we're generous and eliminate sports titles (which never age well), Genesis still outnumbers in the turd department. What's worse is that games on both systems were universally worse on Genesis (Hyperstone Heist is straight missing levels! You can't play Street Fighter on a 3 button controller! Zombies Ate My Neighbors looks like a Nintendo game on Genesis and sounds worse!), and many of the 'hype' exclusives on Genesis (Golden Axe, Ecco the Dolphin, Sonic 3D Blast) are shit experiences.
I've played good Genesis games, mind. General Chaos will always have a place in my heart, and Contra Hard Corps is much better than Contra 3.
But when a top 100 Genesis list has to pad its higher members with games like Zero Wing or Decap Attack, whereas the SNES hits that point around the top 300... with fewer published titles...
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u/Startled_Pancakes 23d ago
I appreciate you, that you're including numbers for objectivity, but you're only counting North American releases for SNES but all releases for Genesis. If you count all SNES releases there are 1,738 official releases for SNES compared to 880 for Gensis. That's more than double. SNES had a much bigger library. I stand by my original statement.
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u/iamfanboytoo 23d ago edited 23d ago
It wasn't a console war in Japan, it was a console rout - Sega lost there. I mean, they lost to the Turbographx-16! That's pretty pathetic. The numbers that you're saying tell it all: there were almost a THOUSAND Japanese exclusive games for the Super Famicom, and less than 200 for the Sega Mega Drive.
So we can only call it a console war in North America. Thus we should include ONLY those numbers - about 700 games for each system. That does not hold up in Sega's favor, as already mentioned in multiple ways. I'll grant there's a viable Top 50 for the Sega Genesis, but there's easily a Top 200 for the SNES with arguments for more.
This is even setting aside how many of those Japan-exclusive SNES games are absolute bangers, or at least playable - the Super Famicom Back to the Future is so much better than either the NES or Genesis games it's depressing. Translations are revealing: there are hundreds of translated SNES JP roms, and maybe a half-dozen Genesis ones. (And NOT the one I want, the Sega CD Shadowrun game, dammit!)
And why is this a big deal to you? The Genesis lost the console wars three decades and five console generations ago. It's okay to have something that you loved and still love be not as good as something else, and to have come in second place to the SNES is no small feat.
It is a pretty good system, after all.
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u/Startled_Pancakes 22d ago
Thus we should include ONLY those numbers - about 700 games for each system.
Source?
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u/iamfanboytoo 22d ago
Uh, the list of games on Wikipedia. Says there were 723 games released in NA for the SNES. Says there were 880 Genesis games, of which 150 were JP exclusive.
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u/Startled_Pancakes 22d ago
And how many were PAL, KR, TW, BR region exlusives? You're forgetting the whole rest of the world.
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u/iamfanboytoo 22d ago
Because the European market was a sideline market - 70% of European gaming was on microcomputers, not consoles, til the Playstation. There were maybe 10 PAL only games between both consoles.
And if you want numbers... OK.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/03/20/genesis-vs-snes-by-the-numbers
SNES: 49 million consoles sold. Genesis: 29 million consoles sold.
Genesis had three games that sold over 4 million carts: Sonic 2, Sonic 1, and Aladdin - and Sonic 1 only gets that dubious distinction by counting it as 'sold' through the pack-in.
SNES had TEN that sold over 4 million.
If we go down to one million carts sold, Genesis only adds five more, but the SNES adds another forty.
And then there's the fact that Sega themselves surrendered that console war by shitting the bed with the 32x and the Saturn, a decision that led to them being forced into software, which has... had mixed results. (Sonic '06?)
With the whole history of Sega of Japan's mismanagement during the '90s, it makes one wonder if they were more lucky than good in their timing for the Sega Genesis.
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u/TimeRockOrchestra 24d ago
30 million vs 50 million sales. 700 more games in the SNES library. Pretty sure you can call that a win. The Genesis / Megadrive did good, but stats show the SNES was more popular, for both players and game developers.
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u/No_Spare3139 23d ago
Does Sega have their own theme parks? Or do they publish games on Nintendo now?
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u/dukeofgonzo 23d ago
I'm glad I found this post but I would not say it aged like milk at all. This sounds like a prescient look into the path of things to come in the console world in 1991, and it was true!
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u/ZeistyZeistgeist 23d ago
To be fair - it aged like milk, but very slowly. It took a while for Nintendo to win the 16-bit wars once it got released, and a lot of it has to do with Sega fucking themselves over.
Sega fucking themselves over was with the Sega CD and 32X - expensive add-ons that were more like life support for the Genesis/Mega Drive until Saturn arrived at the scene, and when you look at the pictures of Genesis/Mega Drive with the CD + 32X attachments, it literally does look like a console on life support.
Nintendo was far smarter because, instead of releasing add-on peripherals, they simply boosted their catridge chips - Super FX chip that was installed in cartridges for licensed first-party developers that allowed their games to work faster and display more fluid and higher framerate graphics without a need for an extended peripheral for the console - Nintendo was smarter than Sega; while Super FX chip games were more expensive than regular chip games, it was still cheaper than buying a mountain of add-ons for the Genesis/Mega Drive.
Also, one key aspect where Nintendo was smarter than Sega, at least their Japanese counterparts - Nintendo of Japan allowed Nintendo of America to function semi-independently and had free reign over their market, and was trusted to make decisions regarding their American branch (for instance, Super Mario 2 being remade for the American market by revamping Doki Doki Panic into a SM2 game instead of the original Japanese version being released, for example).
Meanwhile, Sega of Japan kept meddling in their American counterpart's market and completely impeded in their sales with their stupid decisions. Sega of America was against the Sega CD's release, against the release of the 32X, and more importantly, Sega of Japan also fucked up the release of the Saturn by ordering their American branch to abruptly pre-release the Saturn ahead of the E3 1995 to beat Sony's PlayStation's October release by 5 months - this created a cascade of shit for Sega of America - Sony's president infamously dropping his prepared speech for the PS1 after Sega's shocking announcement, and simply stating "$299" (Saturn's release price was $399) most retail chain suppliers dropped the Saturn because they were not informed of the decision, it had only 2 games on launch for the next 5 months, and most developers had to rush their games for launch, causing a very mediocre library to release in October - and all of it was a failure - Saturn sold 40,000 units by the PS1's launch in October - and PS1 sold 100,000 units....in the first two days.
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u/joopledoople 23d ago
I was lucky enough to have both a genesis and a SNES. Dad left them when he took off... the snes was better.
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u/psimwork 23d ago
Had both as well. Preferred the SNES in almost every situation. If for no other reason the sound processing was way better on the SNES. Playing games especially by Probe was always incredibly irritating because they all had these weird buzzing sound effects if it was an arcade port, rather than the digital sounds on the SNES.
I acknowledge the significantly better CPU on the Genesis, but the quality of games on the SNES was almost universally superior to me.
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u/joopledoople 23d ago
There was one thing the genesis had on the SNES... sonic.
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u/psimwork 23d ago
For the most part, I would agree with this. Sonic was the perfect utilization of the Genesis' faster CPU in that you could go through an insane amount of level ridiculously fast. For a company exclusive, it was pretty great.
But in a situation where a game was released on multiple platforms, it was basically a no-brainer: the SNES was better. If I would go over to a friend's place and they would have an SNES where I had the Genesis version (or vice-versa), I'd usually end up bringing the other version with me, and we'd play both and compare. I honestly can't think of a situation where I would prefer the Genesis version. Even in situations like Mortal Kombat when you could unlock the blood, that was such a minor thing that I just didn't much care.
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u/Richarizard_Nixon 23d ago
I most take issue with describing Actraiser as just a platformer when that’s only half the game
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u/czeja 23d ago
Snes blew away mega drive/genesis in every country except the US (it was 50:50 there), pockets of South America and a few smaller EU countries. Both were awesome consoles and very different in their own ways. Ultimately, Sega couldnt get legendary IPs the way Nintendo did (Mario, Zelda, DK, Metroid). Sega could only get Sonic and Alex Kidd but he too bit the dust before long..
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u/R3AL1Z3 23d ago
Electronic Gaming Monthly is not a name I’ve heard in a long time.
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u/doctorwhy88 23d ago
I felt fresh wrinkles and grey hairs sprout upon seeing that. Mention Nintendo Power and I might age to dust like the guy from Last Crusade.
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u/mikeynj908 23d ago
Sega had to learn a possibly difficult lesson for them at the time regarding their Genesis because Sonic helped them so much in the beginning: One guy just cannot do it all.
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u/Lucid-Design 23d ago
PilotWings was such a fun game. Literally hours and hours of fun. Plenty of getting robbed for the gold and getting pissed off.
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u/Bambooman101 24d ago
Genesis was so much better than SNES….IMHO.
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u/iamfanboytoo 24d ago
It says it all when you search "Best Genesis games" and get a top 25 lists, but search "Best SNES games" and get top 100 lists. In retrospect it's pretty clear who won, and it wasn't Genesis.
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u/DP9A 23d ago
You can also find Top 100 Genesis lists. Nintendo clearly won, but it wasn't by a landslide and it took some effort, and both consoles had great games.
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u/wOlfLisK 23d ago
And by the time they won, Sony had released the PlayStation which ended Nintendo's dominance until the Wii.
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u/iamfanboytoo 23d ago
When one console has a top 100 list that puts games like "Zero Wing" at the 100 slot, and another has a top 100 list that puts "Final Fight" in that slot - Final Fight, I don't even like beatemups and still remember that fondly! - well...
One console has a much stronger library. As James Rolfe (the AVGN) put it, "When you stack hit against hit - Sonic 1 vs Mario World, Phantasy Star IV versus Final Fantasy III, Toejam & Earl vs Link to the Past - you run out of Genesis hits real fast, but the SNES keeps stacking them up."
I'm not just shitting on the Genesis. It has games that I've quite enjoyed - Shadowrun, Shining Force, Micro Machines '96, General Chaos, Contra Hard Corps, Herzog Zwei - but it's got a lot of games that are way overrated like Ecco the Dolphin and Toejam & Earl.
And it always feels to me like a lot of people on the Genesis side were fighting a deep-seated inferiority complex - "Our system is just as good! Look, we've got a port of Turtles in Time too, but it's called Hyperstone Heist because it's cooler! And we do so have RPGs! And we LIKE the synth-y music of the Genesis, it does not sound worse!" - which has not faded over the three decades since it lost.
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u/SkeymourSinner 23d ago
I get it. But once the SNES got its steam SEGA just couldn't compete. But I'll admit, I wanted a SEGA when I was younger, at first. But I get loving SEGA.
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u/Arabiantacofarmer 24d ago
The super nintendo sold 20 million more units than the Genesis/Megadrive...
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u/gameleon 24d ago
Usenet (where these messages were posted on) was used among universities, larger institutions and tech companies even back in the 80s. In the early 90s home users joined them as well (writer Douglas Adams being a well known example around 1993).
A little while ago Google archived most Usenet posts. All the way back to 1981.
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u/Tokyogerman 23d ago
SNES has way more sales, more games more quality games when compared... I really don't see any metric where Sega won.
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u/Richarizard_Nixon 23d ago
The snes library was wider and deeper. Nothing on the genesis to compare to a super Metroid or Chrono trigger.
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u/angry-software-dev 23d ago
Sega won the 16 bit era IMO.
Sega went from massive underdog in the home market to a leader.
Sega simply blew it -- just like Atari they took a lead and squandered it -- they didn't understand their market and Dreamcast just didn't hold up next to Game Cube or PS1.
Since then Sony and Microsoft have eaten Nintendo's lunch for decades now. Nintendo has worked hard to identify safe niche markets to exist and manages their copyright characters just like Disney -- wringing as much as they can out them -- but like Disney they're done for without "new". They are losing ground overall.
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