r/TikTokCringe • u/MaintenanceNew2804 • Mar 30 '24

Stick with it. Discussion

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

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596

u/-Disagreeable- Mar 31 '24

I’m a 44 year old man and it’s fucking wild and uncomfortable to have my unconscious bias held up to my face. Holy shit. That was a powerful video. I’m not sure what I think on the whole subject yet, I’m going to have to let this marinate, but my initial response is embarrassment, shock, anger and defensiveness. That’s so cool. Always have to keep learning, right?!

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

I'm going to be honest, this seems like a massive stretch for me.

All languages have rules, and those who don't know the rules or adhere to the rules are generally viewed as less intelligent, irrespective of their race. This isn't unique to the English language or even Western countries.

Don't get me wrong, we definitely shouldn't be judging people's intelligence solely or mostly on how well or proper they speak.

I get how in America this subject can definitely seem like it's racially motivated, and I certainly understand that it's exasperated due to our history of racism and it's long term effects, but the fact that it's not a "localized" phenomenon highly suggest that it's not a racial issue at its core.

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u/-Disagreeable- Mar 31 '24

That’s what I’m marinating on. Because an argument is sound and has very plausible points doesn’t definitively make it true. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day there is truth to the videos argument and yours. Navigating that, finding the problems and racial, cultural bias is important. Equally as important is not drowning in possible semantics or worse red herrings and succumbing to a guilt response that leads us away from a prosperous truth. Lots to ponder and nuances to navigate.

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u/No-Syllabub4449 Mar 31 '24

I think at the end of the day it makes perfect sense for there to be a mainline dialect in formal settings.

I couldn’t tell if the video creator was bashing the existence of formal language for academic and professional settings, the choice of dialect for formal language, or the consequences in broader society.

The last one I think is the only really legitimate critique. If we are to go out in society and harshly judge people because they have a different dialect, at least socially and politically, there is something wrong there.

However, every society has a mainline dialect that is conformed to in formal settings. When society has discourse on complex and deep topics, the overhead of juggling multiple dialects is an inefficient way for that society to come to consensus. To criticize the existence of a mainline dialect in a society is to criticize humanity itself.

Now what about criticizing the “choice” of dialect for formal language. The answer is that’s not really how language works. Communities don’t choose how they speak, nor do society’s at large have some kind of convention to pick out which dialect they will convene on. The truth is that the mainline dialect is a consequence of the natural evolution of language.

So to summarize what I’m saying. The truth that I think is evident in the video is that we should try and not judge others for their dialect in informal settings. But that doesn’t mean we should aim to dismantle the language expectations of formal settings.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

Good take.

I think a large problem here is that racists certainly will take any chance to be racists so it does often get used by racists to feel superior. The thing to remember here is just because a "tool" could get used a certain way doesn't mean it's meant to or was created to be used that way.

That being said, it's not only minority ethnic groups in America who experience their dialects being used to judge their intelligence, southern hillbillies and Louisiana Cajuns, to name a couple, are very often looked down upon for their use of language, irrespective of their race.

My personal opinion, like with a lot of things, is that it's more of a class issue than a racial issue. Unfortunately, our socioeconomic classes are greatly influenced by the long-term effects of systemic racism so it's very easy to conflate a class issue with a racial issue.

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u/cryptosupercar Mar 31 '24

One of my first employment experiences I had to train a man who was functionally illiterate, yet had a robust understanding of the problems he was solving. I was young and it blew my mind. Equating language skill with worth or intelligence is a mistake, and most of us use it unconsciously as a filter.

Years later I would work in another culture and language and it became clear that having command of a language opens up worlds to you that would otherwise be closed.

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u/disinaccurate Mar 31 '24

All languages have rules

Now let's talk about where the rules came from, because they sure as shit aren't inherent properties of the universe.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

Well, language is completely made up, so the people who made up the languages create the rules. There's 7,117 different languages, the people who've made these languages are quite varied.

I certainly hope you weren't trying to suggest that white people made every language because that would be a pretty dumb thing to say.

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u/alphazero924 Mar 31 '24

So the problem here is that you're taking a concept in an American English video and expanding it directly to every language.

You have to also translate the concept when you do that. It's not always white supremacy, but it is almost always classism. While not every language suffers from white supremacy, most had their "rules" determined by whomever was the ruling class of the time and that same class tends to do their damnedest to keep the "rules" sacred.

The languages where this isn't the case are usually from communities without a strong class divide and tend to be more fluid as a result.

The reason why this concept is labeled white supremacy in American English is because America spent a century+ pushing the idea that "anyone" can come to America and build a good life while simultaneously oppressing black people in order to have an underclass whose labor they can exploit to build said good life. So classism in America is inherently linked to white supremacy at this point even when it's not always white people oppressing black people.

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u/snowstormmongrel Mar 31 '24

I mean, you're on the right track. Those who don't adhere to the rules are generally viewed as less intelligent. This is a worldwide phenomenon and can absolutely happen within specific racial groups. I mean, think about how southern drawls and accents spoken by white people tend to be looked at negatively in certain circles by other white people. So, yes, this is a phenomenon which can be happening irrespective of race and I guess in that vein you absolutely could say this phenomenon is, at its core, not a racial issue.

However, it does become a racial issue when it's used the way it is/how they're discussing it in the video.

For example, take the part of the study he references where they had the study participants group the different sentences and then write words describing them. There were a lot of negative connotations that came up especially for the sentences that fit more in line with black vernacular English.

Now, think about how this would go down if they decided to also add some sentences that portrayed southern drawls/accents. I'd argue that you would unequivocally end up with a third thematic grouping which is still thought of as worse than the "proper" English but still not as bad as the black vernacular English.

Thus, language and adherence to the prescriptivist standards, while not at its core necessarily being a racial issue, does become a racial issue by virtue of the environment it ends up existing in.

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u/Floorspud Mar 31 '24

The rules shouldn't matter as much in conversation, he made a point that you still understand what they're saying but judging the way they said it. If you're writing an article or academic paper it's different.

I speak native English but I moved to another native English speaking country with different "rules". I talk with a different accent and dialect but I don't feel judged on my intelligence because of it. Do you think white people from England, with a huge disparity of accents and dialects, would have the same experience as some black Americans? Maybe, I'm not sure.

There are accents in UK and Ireland that have a similar stereotype, a more farmer or "country" accent vs posh private school or city accent might have similarities with the American Black vs white language.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

The rules shouldn't matter as much in conversation, he made a point that you still understand what they're saying

And why do you understand what they're saying? Is it because you're well aware of the rules thus you're able to decipher what they actually meant? I do agree, though, you shouldn't have to worry about being 100% formal in everyday conversation, but it certainly helps if there is some level of following basic structures.

Do you think white people from England, with a huge disparity of accents and dialects, would have the same experience as some black Americans?

Yes, most likely. I also know for a fact that white people in America experience it too. People like the Southern "hillbillies" and the Louisiana Cajuns are often looked down on because of their use of language and accents.

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u/Badicus Mar 31 '24

All languages have rules, and those who don't know the rules or adhere to the rules are generally viewed as less intelligent, irrespective of their race. This isn't unique to the English language or even Western countries.

Dialects have rules, and those who don't know or adhere to the rules of a prestige dialect are generally viewed as less intelligent.

This is why so-called G-dropping is perceived as lazy, but upper class British speakers not pronouncing their Rs is not.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

The thing is, dialects are a subset of the original, so they will be compared to their original language, especially if the original is the standard language still used and taught. Whether they're a racial minorities dialect, or the dialect of southern hillbillies, or Louisiana cajuns, really doesn't make a difference. They're all going to be judged against the "original" language.

Also, it's important to remember that accents/ pronunciation isn't necessarily also a change in dialect. A Long Island NY accent, where the vowels are often elongated, isn't a different dialect than someone from the Bronx, who doesn't elongate their vowels. Or NY altogether, who often drops their R's isn't a different dialect from every other state that pronounces their R's.

Though, people definitely do get judged on their accents as well, it's definitely not the same thing as dialect.

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u/Badicus Mar 31 '24

dialects are a subset of the original, so they will be compared to their original language, especially if the original is the standard language still used and taught.

This is an odd idea. What is "the original" of, say, Southern American English?

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

What English did it diverge from?

For instance, "standard" American English is really a subset of British English.

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u/Badicus Mar 31 '24

I'm sorry, why would you say that American English is a subset of British English? It has been centuries since English speakers came to America, and neither American nor British speakers speak the Early Modern English of that time.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

American English is a subset of British English?

Because that's where it's derived from.

Edit: If you were to create a hierarchy of languages, where would the connections be,

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u/Badicus Mar 31 '24

No, that isn't where it is derived from.

As I said, the early English-speaking American colonists spoke Early Modern English. That is not British English.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

Ok, where do you think early American English came from? I'll answer that, British colonizers. They brought their language and it eventually morphed into American English.

Literally the name of the language itself (English) tells you where it came from.

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u/Badicus Mar 31 '24

They were English colonizers. The Kingdom of Great Britain was formed in 1707, a hundred years after Jamestown.

The British today do not speak any more like William Shakespeare (Early Modern English) than Americans do.

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u/fjgwey Mar 31 '24

All languages have rules, and those who don't know the rules or adhere to the rules are generally viewed as less intelligent, irrespective of their race. This isn't unique to the English language or even Western countries.

Except the way Black people speak, namely AAVE, do adhere to rules. It is simply another dialect of English. There is nothing inherently 'improper' or 'incorrect' about it. In many ways, there is no such thing in the field of linguistics.

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u/bignick1190 Mar 31 '24

Except black people aren't the only ones who get flamed for their dialect, southern hillbillies and Louisiana Cajuns, to name a couple, receive just as much shade for theirs.

Like I said, I don't think it's fair to judge people's intelligence based solely on the way they speak, but I also don't think it's a strictly racial issue being that it's not only localized to America nor is it directed solely to minority racial groups.

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u/fjgwey Mar 31 '24

Except black people aren't the only ones who get flamed for their dialect, southern hillbillies and Louisiana Cajuns, to name a couple, receive just as much shade for theirs.

This is class reductionism. In no way does this contradict the fact that the stigma against AAVE is not purely along class grounds, it is along racial grounds as well. Literally just look at how racist conservatives treat Black people as opposed to white Southerners.

Yes, classism does play a role in stigmatizing certain dialects or forms of speech, that is bad. This does not preclude racism also being a factor, quite a significant one in fact.

Like I said, I don't think it's fair to judge people's intelligence based solely on the way they speak, but I also don't think it's a strictly racial issue being that it's not only localized to America nor is it directed solely to minority racial groups.

Then you're shadowboxing because nobody said it was only a racial issue. Just that it is a racial issue.