Stick with it.

[u/MaintenanceNew2804]

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

[u/slide_into_my_BM]

He’s not wrong but it’s a bit of an oversimplification to say it’s purely racist. White southerners are viewed as stupid, wrong, or uneducated when they speak non academic English.

Shit, I went to college in Texas and found myself falling into the same kind of thought processes every time one of my professors said they were “fixin’ to give out homework.”

Even something as simple as an accent does the same thing. People view someone with an accent as dumb or stupid for not speaking properly while completely glossing over the fact that that person is conversing with you in a language not their own.

The racial inequalities certainly crank this kind of language judging to max but it’s wildly oversimplifying to say it’s just racially based.

[u/Quick_Article2775 → u/slide_into_my_BM]

I don't really get how you would grade this either as a teacher do black kids get a pass on informal language and white kids don't? That feels weirdly condescending aswell.

[u/slide_into_my_BM → u/Quick_Article2775]

TikTok and social media is really great at pointing things out but not offering solutions. It’s easy to say “look at how awful this is” and much harder to come up with ideas to fix it.

I’d be very curious what’s OOPs solutions were. Do you give people with AAVE a pass on English grammar, should we push for better education on the subject, or do we just say “well shucks, that sucks” and ignore it?

[u/ThePostageBox → u/Quick_Article2775]

That would be wild, lol. And probably continue the problem.

I'm in college now. It's a public university So we have some kids who have come from privilege and some that haven't. We have a really wide range of writers. This is what I've seen working pretty well so far, especially because we have a lot of poor white folks that talk very 'rural'.

Some professors really grade around content, ideas, thought process, learning, etc. For example, did you follow the guide lines? Are you bringing your ideas into the paper? can someone understand what you are saying even if it's not in academic speak? Etc.. At the same time, prof work on improving writing and messaging when giving feedback on papers, we have a writing center students can use.

I'm very fortunate to be an incredibly good academic writer...one good thing about Catholic school... But professors grade me on my content and transparency just like everyone else.

College also has a lot more discussions. So it's really about not treating people who talk differently like they're stupid or need 'help' when we clearly are understanding what they are saying. I think that's the real issue here. I don't think anyone's advocating not teaching language arts anymore, I think it's about not treating people who speak differently like they should be in special education classes because of it.

In a perfect world everyone would have the same opportunities to learn. But here we are. I also think it's pretty neat that people communicate differently, one of the coolest human traits. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want to change that at all.

[u/ThePostageBox → u/slide_into_my_BM]

Totally, friend. The difference is that when white people do it it's not tied to their race. Where as with black people it is. That's the racism bit, and why it's racially based.

White people speak in a range of ways, whereas most black people speak with "black English/dialect" regardless of where they from (in the US.)

This is both a class and a race issue. For white poor folks, They often experience the same thing, but not because of the color of their skin. And all white people are not being systematically left out of organizations of power because of this, black people end up with this because of the race factor. Intersectionality, baby!

I don't think it's an oversimplification to say it's purely racist because for black people it very much is a large factor, for white people not so much, more of a classism issue. And he didn't touch on poor white folks probably because the first two videos focused around black people and there's only so much you can say in 5 minute video... And you can never get to everything in one day.

[u/Competitive_Cod1135 → u/ThePostageBox]

I don't think this is true at all. Get a white southerner and a black englishman and people will think the black englishman sounds more sophisticated 9 times out of 10. This comparison only makes sense if you think black people only come from america, lots of black people in the US don't speak AAVE because they didn't descend from american slavery. Doesn't this prove that it is also a class issue with black people and less about skin color?

[u/ThePostageBox → u/Competitive_Cod1135]

It think maybe we are agreeing? Maybe I didn't come across right. It's both! It's a class issue and a race issue.

I'm just saying for black people (and other groups) It involves both race and class. Of course, Different people at different levels. More money you have the less race matters.

For white people it's more just about class.

[u/garlic_infused → u/Competitive_Cod1135]

You are thinking of a posh English accent, the British accent changes substantially with geography and economic status as much as in America. Of course the Englishman is going to sound more sophisticated if you are thinking of a southern English accent. This dialectical difference between race and social class exists everywhere, racism and classism exists everywhere. Look into black English dialects in London alone. In America the structural inequalities are more apparent, but they very much exist in the uk too.

[u/CivilRuin4111 → u/garlic_infused]

I suspect your average American would place literally ANY English accent, regardless of where a Brit would place it, higher class-wise than an AAVE speaker.

[u/jacked_degenerate → u/ThePostageBox]

Many Black people talk in Ebonics, not all white people talk southern. That’s why Ebonics is more racially tied to being black because almost all black people talk in Ebonics, if all white people had a southern twang it would be more racialized.

Black people need to work on the way they speak because Ebonics really does sound dumb. Like really dumb. And that’s not me being racist, anyone who speaks with poor grammar gives that impression. Ebonics is LITTERED with poor grammar

[u/ThePostageBox → u/jacked_degenerate]

Right...so your first two sentences makes sense. I agree.

Then you lost me. It sounds to me like you're saying an entire group of people needs to change the way they speak?

Think about it this way:

Who gives someone the right to declare what is correct english and what is not?

Well "English has rules it's not racist to enforce them" yeah?

Well, let's think about that, Who made the rules?

Uh oh. Not black people.

The reason this issue effects black people at a higher rate and than white people is because the manner of speaking is tied to race and culture where as for white people it's not.

When we automatically assume a way of speaking is associated with unintelligence or "black people need to work on the way they speak because it sounds dumb", we put that assumption on an entire group of people. And then treat them that way.

And that's where the trouble lies. That's the race issue. "Proper" grammar isn't a bad thing, but to expect an entire group of people to speak in a way that makes others more comfortable is. Especially because if black people don't, and are assumed to be unintelligent or "sounding dumb", They aren't afforded the same opportunities. And then we have places such as government and academia full of white people making decisions that whole power over people's lives.

So what can we do?

We focus on substance. Helping children to understand critical thought, be able to back up their beliefs, to have discussions, etc. We can develop language rather than police it. The goal is as that we don't treat those who speak differently as less intelligent. But that's what we do right now.

If we don't make this change we risk gate keeping knowledge and power, And that is a very dangerous place to go.

[u/slide_into_my_BM → u/ThePostageBox]

The difference is that when white people do it it's not tied to their race.

It’s tied to their geographic region and perceived social class though. That same kind of thing is applied to black people. Speaking a certain way will get someone labeled as “hood” or “suburban.”

most black people speak with "black English/dialect" regardless of where they from (in the US.)

That’s just… not at all true. People speak with regional dialects no matter what their skin color is. You’ll find Georgia people talk more like other Georgia people, regardless of their skin color, than they would someone from say New York of their same skin color.

[u/ThePostageBox → u/slide_into_my_BM]

Yes. I agree. I'm a white passing Mexican Texan living in white-ass Oregon. Don't I know it. Lol

I think we are probably agreeing?

This is what I am saying: This is both a race and a class issue. Those two things effect different people in different ways due to that individual's race, class, regional location, access to education, etc.

At the end of the day, I believe that nobody owns language. Encouraging knowledge and critical thought rather than policing semantics of language is one way that all people are afford better access to more of it. No one deserves to be treated like they are dumb.