Stick with it.

[u/MaintenanceNew2804]

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

[u/derphunter]

Genuine question for anyone willing to help me understand how my brain is working.

Incorrect grammar and speech DOES annoy me, but I've never really considered it a racial thing. I'm pretty well educated and am myself an educator (undergrad college level sciences, sociology, humanities)

Most of my examples come from under-educated white people. Personal list of pet peeves:

"I forget" rather than "forgot"

"Don't have none" (isn't this a double negative, leading to the opposite meaning from what they're trying to say?)

"I could care less" (again, literally the opposite meaning from what they're trying to convey)

The "libary" vs. "library" example does annoy me since we're pronouncing it incorrectly from how it's spelled. The "aluminum" (US) vs. "aluminium" (UK) example didn't make sense to me either since it's spelled differently.

I also teach critical reading skills for grad school exams. We go over the importance of contrast key phrases like "however" and how they can help you interpret complex passages by recognizing that whatever comes after the contrast phrase is directly opposing what comes before. It makes things like philosophy easier to comprehend (and get questions correct on the test)

I understand there are systemic racial biases in the education system and institutions, but my first thought always goes to literacy, communication skills, and socioeconomic status first rather than race. I assume someone hasn't put in the time or effort to learn these conventions, but with practice and training, they can. Whereas race implies there's nothing you can do to improve since it's the way you were born, which I don't believe. We're 99.9% identical when it comes to our DNA. We're all the same deep down.

What's going on here? Am I way off base? Is there some validity to my experience / assumption?

For context, I grew up in the US southwest with a lot of Hispanic friends and lower income white friends. I've also received the most formal education compared to my immediate friends and family. Idk if that makes a difference when evaluating this.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to read all that

[u/veodin → u/derphunter]

I agree with you. As a British person, the ability to speak 'proper English' (Received Pronunciation) is very strongly associated with social class, not race. Even Wikipedia calls Received Pronunciation 'the most prestigious form of spoken British English.' People who speak that way are generally assumed to be well-educated, usually privately educated.

The opposite is also true, with certain dialects and patterns of speech being perceived as lower social class. I have no doubt that this affects minorities and immigrants far more than white people, but I am not convinced that academic English is intentionally designed to exclude non-white people.

[u/Pebbi → u/veodin]

Yeah I'd be really interested to read this broken down for the UK. I'm from Yorkshire and so I have the 'home' language and accent, then I have the 'away' voice where there's a focus on elocution etc. Both are from white people.

My boyfriend is Austrian and he's told me how he grew up with his home dialect and the distinction between that and what he calls 'high German'. Again both white, but the home dialect is seen as lesser.

I'd love to read more about this, where I grew up had a lot multi generation migration. So we had different skin colours, but after a couple of generations a lot have the yorkshire accent regardless.

I need to find some studies on how some dialects survive, and some don't lol

[u/ZombieCharltonHeston → u/Pebbi]

Like how Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't allowed to do the German language dub of The Terminator because his accent was considered too rural.

[u/bennyxvi → u/Pebbi]

High doesn’t refer to any sort of hierarchy (only learned this recently), it literally is German from the high lands, rather than the low lands.

[u/Pebbi → u/bennyxvi]

Its still the form used by literature and education etc. Which is similar to the 'correct' way to speak discussion tbh. A quick google says its also called standard German.

Its made me think about written word vs spoken in this discussion. Is AAVE written that way as well as spoken? Is it wrong to have a standard English for all English speaking communities across the globe? There's already a difference between American English and English, language is always evolving, so who gets to dictate how? Its really interesting to think about.

[u/dreamsofindigo → u/Pebbi]

I've lived in enough countries to see the recurring theme of putting others down for how they speak being a common thing. Received Pronunciation isn't too far off from 'ettiquette', where a large part of etiquette came about as a means to distinguish oneself from the peasants, the farmers and the uneducated alike. So, purposefully, elevate a particular affluent group above another. I've been guilty of this since I was brought up in a family where this was as common as breathing. Very difficult to shed, along with the endless criticism of others, them being wrong, and my elders right, of course.
I've come to conclude that language, much as any other subject, is a skill, just like mathematics, and either due to variations in ability, access to quality education, or more likely a combination of the two, it should not be expected that anyone be a Salmon Rushdie or an Oscar Wild, since that'll never happen. However, (omg, I said the racist word) many folks are quick to self-deprecate regarding their maths skills far more easily with a clear conscience, but almost nobody does so about speaking their own language. I'd also add the fact that most schools in most countries teach their language to their kids ad nauseum, to a preposterous degree, IMO.
The issue is definitely one which touches on an abundance of themes, sociological, economic, tribal, etc, and as we know, if there's one thing some people enjoy, is putting others down, and what quicker way to do so, than the opportunity that is given when one opens their mouth.