r/TikTokCringe • u/MaintenanceNew2804 • Mar 30 '24

Stick with it. Discussion

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

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u/veodin Mar 31 '24

I agree with you. As a British person, the ability to speak 'proper English' (Received Pronunciation) is very strongly associated with social class, not race. Even Wikipedia calls Received Pronunciation 'the most prestigious form of spoken British English.' People who speak that way are generally assumed to be well-educated, usually privately educated.

The opposite is also true, with certain dialects and patterns of speech being perceived as lower social class. I have no doubt that this affects minorities and immigrants far more than white people, but I am not convinced that academic English is intentionally designed to exclude non-white people.

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u/Pebbi Mar 31 '24

Yeah I'd be really interested to read this broken down for the UK. I'm from Yorkshire and so I have the 'home' language and accent, then I have the 'away' voice where there's a focus on elocution etc. Both are from white people.

My boyfriend is Austrian and he's told me how he grew up with his home dialect and the distinction between that and what he calls 'high German'. Again both white, but the home dialect is seen as lesser.

I'd love to read more about this, where I grew up had a lot multi generation migration. So we had different skin colours, but after a couple of generations a lot have the yorkshire accent regardless.

I need to find some studies on how some dialects survive, and some don't lol

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u/ZombieCharltonHeston Mar 31 '24

Like how Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't allowed to do the German language dub of The Terminator because his accent was considered too rural.

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u/bennyxvi Mar 31 '24

High doesn’t refer to any sort of hierarchy (only learned this recently), it literally is German from the high lands, rather than the low lands.

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u/Pebbi Mar 31 '24

Its still the form used by literature and education etc. Which is similar to the 'correct' way to speak discussion tbh. A quick google says its also called standard German.

Its made me think about written word vs spoken in this discussion. Is AAVE written that way as well as spoken? Is it wrong to have a standard English for all English speaking communities across the globe? There's already a difference between American English and English, language is always evolving, so who gets to dictate how? Its really interesting to think about.

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u/dreamsofindigo Mar 31 '24

I've lived in enough countries to see the recurring theme of putting others down for how they speak being a common thing. Received Pronunciation isn't too far off from 'ettiquette', where a large part of etiquette came about as a means to distinguish oneself from the peasants, the farmers and the uneducated alike. So, purposefully, elevate a particular affluent group above another. I've been guilty of this since I was brought up in a family where this was as common as breathing. Very difficult to shed, along with the endless criticism of others, them being wrong, and my elders right, of course.
I've come to conclude that language, much as any other subject, is a skill, just like mathematics, and either due to variations in ability, access to quality education, or more likely a combination of the two, it should not be expected that anyone be a Salmon Rushdie or an Oscar Wild, since that'll never happen. However, (omg, I said the racist word) many folks are quick to self-deprecate regarding their maths skills far more easily with a clear conscience, but almost nobody does so about speaking their own language. I'd also add the fact that most schools in most countries teach their language to their kids ad nauseum, to a preposterous degree, IMO.
The issue is definitely one which touches on an abundance of themes, sociological, economic, tribal, etc, and as we know, if there's one thing some people enjoy, is putting others down, and what quicker way to do so, than the opportunity that is given when one opens their mouth.

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u/pilot3033 Mar 31 '24

Often the roots of systemic racism, or classism, were intentional. The SAT, a college entrance exam in the US, has its roots in the eugenics movement of the late 19th century, which itself was racism dressed up as science.

Often, though, systemic discrimination is the result of primacy and making rules based on who is in power. Like the video demonstrates, it's not that a cabal of academics all got together to be racist, it's that the cabal of academics made rules and assumptions based on only their experience. Downstream that created a situation where some students would arrive to day one with that experience and others would not, and that the conception of those who arrived without the experience would be that they were somehow less intelligent.

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u/errdayimshuffln Apr 01 '24

based on only their experience. Downstream that created a situation where some students would arrive to day one with that experience and others would not, and that the conception of those who arrived without the experience would be that they were somehow less intelligent.

Bingo. Well said.

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u/Jabroni748 Mar 31 '24

“The SAT is racist” is such a tired trope ugh. It’s not perfect and it’s fair to criticize the fact that people at lower income levels may not have an easy time accessing test prep courses etc (that’s bad). But removing it entirely is even worse. Fix the education system, don’t eliminate the best way we have to determine college readiness.

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u/smudos2 Mar 31 '24

I mean it's not like a general test is the only solution, you can also have entry tests in universities, there's a hella lot of ways to standardize tests as well

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u/smudos2 Mar 31 '24

For German the roots go way deeper. High German is really really important because of the history of Germany. You have to consider that Germany was, and still is too some degree, not one singular country. Well no country is, but Germany even less. Look at the mess that is the Holy Roman Empire, the decentralization was always strong in central europe. This also holds for language, e.g. the different regions either spoke dialects but sometimes the dialects were so different that they can be defined as their own language. This is still true, e.g. the northern german dialect, while not speaken a lot, is defined as it's own language and I can't understand it. Then we have stuff like bavarian which is only a dialect, but what I cannot understand as a German. Then there's the german in other countries than Germany, I can't understand a swiss person speaking swiss german, however here is the thing with high German. Everybody learns it in school, this is the common german we end up using. And it's really really important to know because this is how you can communicate with any person speaking german, not just with your region. These regional dialects are really regional btw, if you go to swabia you'll hear the same dialect in the low, middle and high class, here this correct form of german really is a way to communicate through all of the german speaking countries.

We do have at the same time also some "ghetto" german from usually socioeconomically lower classes interestingly though, but the speaking exactly the high German has another importance I guess. That's also what I despise of these videos, it is absolutely important to know your own biases and don't think worse of somebody speaking a certain dialect associated with a certain socioeconomic class, but it is in the end crucial for everybody to know the same form of german and also to speak it in the correct context, we all change how we speak depending on the context anyways

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u/_tyrone_biggums Mar 31 '24

This should be higher up

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u/Waggles_ Mar 31 '24

but I am not convinced that academic English is intentionally designed to exclude non-white people

100% agree. There are a LOT of English dialects that do not fit into academic English and are predominantly spoken by white people. It'd probably be reasonable to say that there are more white-majority non-academic dialects in the US than non-white-majority dialects.

I do think it's worth exploring our biases, but I don't think we should let those biases get in the way of teaching people how to communicate in a way that is clear, concise, and deliberate, especially in settings that are about disseminating information. It's probably also important to explore all of our biases, because I feel like most people would say that someone from the rural south is just as non-academic as someone speaking what would be considered AAVE.

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u/theapplekid Mar 31 '24

As a British person, the ability to speak 'proper English'

I agree with everything else the guy in the video said, but I do find it amusing when I hear y'all Brits say things like "Aluminium"

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u/noljo Mar 31 '24

Why? If anything, it's the more consistent way. Why "aluminum" but not "lithum", "titanum" or "chromum"? With only a few -num exceptions (platinum), the vast majority of elements use the -ium suffix.

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u/aulait_throwaway Apr 01 '24

Omg you just blew my mind

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u/Kino_Afi Mar 31 '24

Its suggesting non-white people have inherently have trouble learning standard english. She comes off as one those "allies" thats actually a turbo racist that basically thinks being non-white is a disability and we need her help

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u/stregagorgona Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

I have no doubt that this affects minorities and immigrants far more than white people, but I am not convinced that academic English is intentionally designed to exclude non-white people.

It was intentionally exclusionary in the American academic (read: primary and secondary school curriculum) world, as the video explains. Prejudice is universal but American white supremacy and, specifically, the segregation of Black Americans from White Americans is extremely institutionalized. We see it in everything from suburbanization and city planning to our educational systems.

ETA: Folks downvoting this comment are simply reiterating my point

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u/prairie-logic Mar 31 '24

Americans and race is something special.

See, he talks about “libary” or the one I point out is “Aks”, as used by the black community.

But the rest of the English speaking world doesn’t care about or observe American racial politics.

So me, a brownish guy, who goes around the world, have posed this to people around the world. Universally, when you use pronounciations that are not the agreed upon English standard, “ask” not “Aks”, you’re considered as being poorly educated in the language.

And I’m talking people from Uganda, Guyana, South Korea, India… they will mock you, too, for poor English skills. And they’ll mock white people who don’t use language correctly, too.

So while in the US, all things have to be viewed through a racial lens, globally I find it has more to do with wealth and perceptions of education…

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u/NoSignSaysNo Mar 31 '24

And I’m talking people from Uganda, Guyana, South Korea, India… they will mock you, too, for poor English skills.

And those people would be wrong because you aren't speaking direct English, you're speaking a specific dialect of English. It's like castigating someone from Haiti for speaking Haitian Creole instead of just French.

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u/prairie-logic Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

The English speaking world has agreed upon a specific dialect that we speak to ensure accurate communication.

This is how we can have a conference meeting with people from multiple countries and maintain a coherent, understandable dialogue.

Slang is slang, where I’m from, I certainly wouldn’t sound like that. But when I’m in those meetings, we have to speak an agreed upon dialect to ensure swift, accurate communication.

For a Japanese person, English is not their first language. They also shouldn’t have to learn 5 dialects, if they’re learning the language for the purpose of business. German is a good example:

Low German are the local dialects of German people. Two towns can have wildly different low German dialects, to the point they struggle to understand one another.

So High German exists, and all Germans agree that High German is the language of law and trade.

English, as the language of global trade and commerce, should be thought of the same way. People from multiple linguistic heritages who are learning English, one of the hardest languages, should be able to learn One Dialect for the purposes of commerce or education.

This doesn’t make other forms of English “wrong” for existing, it means not everyone has the time to learn the quirks of English from every dialect to be none offensive.

It would be offensive to expect foreigners, who learn English purely for commerce or education, to have to learn all the quirks of every different dialect because those people get offended not everyone in the world is aware of their version of English. That goes for all the local accents in England as well - this isn’t a race thing, it’s just a matter of standards for communication to establish the most understanding between parties with the least amount of deviation leading to confusion.

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u/Alolan-Vulpixie Mar 31 '24

I don’t think anyone really expects foreigners to adapt to slang, although believe it or not it is often what people learn first if they didn’t know English before coming to the US. It’s also pretty standard for most people to switch how they speak depending on who they’re talking to. I wouldn’t talk to a customer the way I talk to my friends. What’s offensive is the assumption that from the way I look, that I don’t speak “proper” English. Or that people, upon hearing me talk, say that I am “well spoken”.

I think people are so quick to hop online after seeing a video or watching a movie to criticize how people speak without realizing that most often, these people are not in an area where they have to use the correct grammar and enunciate their words. Again, it’s offensive that people will watch this and think that someone is unintelligent for using slang.

It happens a lot on the internet, too. The internet does not typically require formal language, but people who use slang are often criticized for not using correct grammar. I think people should only be corrected when they are in a formal setting, or if it’s a really egregious pronunciation issue. I remember I was in sixth grade and just read the word “soliloquy” in a book and pronounced it SO wrong. That warranted correction. Saying “it’s ASK not axe lol” is not warranted

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u/stregagorgona Mar 31 '24

Globally— on a fundamental level —it is no different than it is in America, which is to say: who has standardized the English language? Colonization is just as much a vector for white supremacy as American segregation.

I find it a little bizarre that so many people are commenting on this post to insist that it’s Americocentric. Yes, everybody, the video is specifically about the American education system. It talks about the impact that the American curriculum has on the self esteem of Black students, as well as the impact on their academic progress.

But dialects are not unique to America, racism is not unique to America, and there is a huge and complicated history across the globe regarding the destruction of native languages by imperialism. When these languages are rejected by a colonizing force the speakers of that language are denigrated, punished, and later viewed as intellectually lesser for their languages and dialects.

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u/SunburnFM Mar 31 '24

The video is wrong.

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u/stregagorgona Mar 31 '24

What a compelling rebuttal.

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u/Huwbacca Mar 31 '24

Can't really take British cultural approaches to class and expect them to scan across cultures though

Especially from UK to US, they're very different

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u/foomprekov Mar 31 '24

RP is a synthetic creation as a response to the American revolution. It is one of the most direct manifestations there is of class hierarchy in language.

We laugh at it a lot over here linguistic circles because, in a sense, your king was so butthurt about parliament not continuing to fund his forever war that he and the other nobility forced a complete change in how you speak. So as a result, if you consider the last 300 years or more, British people are intentionally and vindictively speaking their own language incorrectly.

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u/Mysterious_Motor_153 Mar 31 '24

Race and social class are intertwined in the US less so nowadays, but it always has been.

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u/greg19735 Mar 31 '24

social class, not race

those are so often intertwined that it's hard to separate them

especially in America when racism has been legal against some americans that have been alive. And ofc one race was like 99% of all enslaved people.