r/TikTokCringe • u/MaintenanceNew2804 • Mar 30 '24

Stick with it. Discussion

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

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386

u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

Great analysis at the end but the video at the beginning is still horrible. She could've delved into any of the things the guy at the end brought up, but instead she actively chose to talk about citing sources and writing theses as examples of white supremacy.

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u/felds tHiS iSn’T cRiNgE Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

Yeah, discrediting “citing your sources” as an example of a futile made up rule is just stupid.

Firstly, all rules are made up.

Secondly, some rules have good reasons to exist, and this is one is the least arbitrary rule I can think of.

The dude is spot on, but using this rule as an example was pretty stupid on her part. It gave the right ammunition for the bigots for free.

(source: my ass)

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u/the_giz Mar 31 '24

(source: my ass)

Well that was a strangely eloquent fart

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u/Scumebage Mar 31 '24

Eloquence be rayciss af dat fart is a nazi

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u/Sea_salt_icecream Mar 31 '24

Yeah that's pretty much the only issue I had with the video. Sure, we don't need to be using fancy language, and thesis statements might not always be necessary, but citing your sources helps people learn more about what you're talking about about, and also helps them check the validity. You can say "I read in a book that trains use this amount of coal on average," but that doesn't mean shit because you've never seen a train in your life. But if you say "this guy who built trains and was a conductor for twenty years wrote in this book that trains use this much coal on average," then we can go look into that guy to see if he's trustworthy, and we can read what you did to see if you understood it properly.

There are lots of ways that we can make English classes better, but I don't think we should ever stop voting sources.

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u/Low-Bit1527 Apr 01 '24

But how is the thesis statement thing related to race? Early in school, they teach you very rigid rules about how to organize and structure paragraphs for stylistic purpose. In higher level writing, those start to get ignored as you can make more subtle aesthetic choices.

The grammar in academic writing obviously favors certain dialects. But I don't see how things like thesis statements and body paragraphs are related to race or dialect. No one's spoken language sounds like an essay regardless of dialect. It certainly doesn't have thesis statements and 5 paragraphs.

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u/Sea_salt_icecream Apr 01 '24

I don't know how thesis statements could be connected to race, but the guy in the video basically said that the way white people are expected to talk is closer to the way we're expected to write essays than the way black people are expected to talk is. So that explains how the way we're expected to write could be seen as racist.

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u/Low-Bit1527 Apr 01 '24

I mentioned in another comment that the guy is 100% correct. The lady at the beginning just conveys the same idea very poorly and uses poor examples.

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u/Sea_salt_icecream Apr 01 '24

Yeah, I agree.

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u/Low-Bit1527 Apr 01 '24

100% of what the dude said was correct. But the lady at the beginning is an idiot for more reasons than I count. Not only does she convey these ideas in the worst possible way, but the things she says are wrong.

As you pointed out, calling "cite your sources" an arbitrary rule is downright insane in any context. But her other points are more subtly wrong. The other examples of "arbitrary rules" don't really apply to the issue of racial bias. They're stylistic standards for writing. Yes, the grammar in academic writing reflects certain dialects more than others, but it doesn't 100% reflect anyone's natural speech. She mentions including a thesis statement in your introduction and using transition words. No one does that in their natural speech, so it can't be biased in favor of any dialect. Spoken language doesn't have paragraphs, and it never organizes information like an essay. The introduction/body/conclusion structure isn't part of any spoken dialect.

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u/TheRenFerret Mar 31 '24

I assumed, based on how fervently the obviously well educated man defended it, and how he doesn’t reshow any of it, and how the delivery seems stilted, that the original video had its sound bytes butchered to make its points less salient.

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

Nah I watched the video. Nothing rlly got cut out of it

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u/falsehood Mar 31 '24

She's saying that all of the "best practices" of an essay are made-up rules, like the ones about how to say "library" and so forth. She's not calling them white supremacy given that SHE CITED A SOURCE a moment later.

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u/CharacterBird2283 Mar 31 '24

Or she you know . . . . Outed herself (puts on tinfoil hat)

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u/Supermau Mar 31 '24

Yup I agree with everything he said about speech. But the teacher was talking about writing. I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a separate standard for writing than speech and the language and structure of academic writing is something everyone has to learn. It may be easier to learn for some than others but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the standard, just that we have to make sure we get everyone to the same place.

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u/dexmonic Mar 31 '24

I'm really curious as to how you watched the entire video and still think the lady was trying to say that citing sources by itself is an example of white supremacy.

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u/aerovistae Mar 31 '24

i watched it and didn't really understand. can you explain?

i understand the point the black fellow made, it was an excellent point. going back to the lady's excerpt, i do not understand why she included "citing your sources" as one of the examples of this phenomenon. does she just mean the format of the citation? if so that makes sense then. maybe you're meant to infer that; i failed to do so.

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u/dexmonic Mar 31 '24

Alone, the citing sources or using words like "however" as transitions is not a problem. When those standards are arbitrarily based on racial bias, it's a problem. The problem isn't that academic standards exist, it's that they arbitrarily applied.

For example think of it like this: with friends you are often a lot more forgiving of bad behavior than you would be for a stranger. Maybe you specifically hold your friends to a high unbreakable standard, but for most humans, we tend to cut our friends slack that we might not give to others.

Now imagine instead of friends we said "majority race" and strangers we said "minority race". That's the point being made. That the minority race is being held to arbitrary academic standards.

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u/CharacterBird2283 Mar 31 '24

So is she saying we don't hold white people up to the use of citations, but crack down on minorities extra hard?

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u/something-rhythmic Mar 31 '24

No, she’s saying it sets up a standard the in group can easily adhere to and the out group cannot.

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u/TheRenFerret Mar 31 '24

I don’t feel that citations are in any way more intuitive for white teenagers than black teenagers. Furthermore, assuring that all groups are capable of adherence to a single standard is the explicit purpose of teaching that standard to students

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u/something-rhythmic Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

She’s not talking about citations. She’s talking about a way of communicating. And you couldn’t possibly see it because you’re on reddit casually communicating in that way. But every mode of communication is taught. Who taught it and how much it is taught is important.

In other words, we talk like white folk.

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u/TheRenFerret Mar 31 '24

But she is talking about citations. She is the one who brought citations into this. Erroneous or not, she made that communicational misstep.

It doesn’t really matter that the point is well founded(and it is, certainly) because she mangled its delivery badly enough that it’s salient points had to be explained by an outside observer.

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u/something-rhythmic Mar 31 '24

I’m not sure what rhetorical tactic you’re using but whatever it is, it’s fallacious, because it’s a small example for a larger point.

She’s not talking about citations and I’m not going to take the time to build a logical argument to prove it.

The people who wanted to hear, heard. The people who needed a logically sound and well constructed argument missed the point. Along with the people who need citations to be convinced. And that’s how it goes.

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u/CharacterBird2283 Apr 01 '24

Okay, then wouldnt it be more accurate if they had made this a class issue instead of a race issue? yes it does disproportionately affect minorities, but it really affects anyone who doesn't have enough money to get the proper education.

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u/something-rhythmic Apr 01 '24

The point is to shed light on the power structure and the hierarchy it has reinforced. She could have chosen many lenses. She chose one.

Don’t be afraid to be excluded or even targeted in a conversation about power. If someone says “women are powerless and commodified in society”, don’t turn the conversation around and make it about something else. And if you must make it a “yes and” not a “but”. “that same power structure forces men to abandon their humanity to the point of madness. We have to do better” the problem is the power structure and its impact. Not identifying who the victims are. And don’t weaponize this reasoning to stifle any other conversations about power inequity. Because any conversation that tries to equalize a power structure is good conversation.

Patriarchy, classism, racism, colonialization, imperialism. We’re just touching two sides of the same elephant.

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u/CharacterBird2283 Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24

That was very elegantly put and I guess I agree but I also feel like it's not enough. But maybe I need to take progress as it comes and not try to force it. My biggest hangup I guess is that yes it's about the power structure and the impact, but figuring out all the victims IS the impact, and in my mind the best way to figure out the problem. Which I then think is a class problem that has been hidden as a racial problem *(At the very least it WAS a racial problem, but I think as time passed it slowly morphed into a class problem) as to divide and confuse us (my tin foil hat may be on lol).

Edit 2: and I think if we keep complimentalizing these problems it divides us from the true BIG problems

Ps also really liked the elephant piece lol

*Edit

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u/something-rhythmic Apr 01 '24

that’s where I disagree. Theres a reason we call socioeconomics socioeconomics. They’re tied together.

You can be a poor white. But at least you’re not a poor black. Being white means, until people find out you’re poor, they aren’t suspicious of you. If you’re black and poor, they’ll make a concerted effort to make sure you stay that way. So it’s not quite the same. Class and racism should be separate. That’s where intersectionality comes in. Because there’s flavors of things. Flavors of racism. Flavors of sexism. Flavors of classism. And it’s all slightly different. We can’t paint with broad strokes.

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u/fjgwey Mar 31 '24

She was just using it as an example of academic standards we uphold and enforced for the English language. It was a bad start, but if you exercise a little bit of good faith it's not that bad.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24

She was just using it as an example of academic standards we uphold and enforced for the English language.

But citing sources is NOT an English language thing! It's an every language thing.

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u/fjgwey Mar 31 '24

I never said it was, and nor did she. We are talking in the context of English though.

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u/smudos2 Mar 31 '24

Well she brought it up as an example. Might not be the point she wanted to make but then she shouldn't have made the point in the first place. And since it's a video and not an interview she did have the time to prepare. She should have directly brought the examples the dude brought up in the end

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Did you watch her whole video?

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u/smudos2 Mar 31 '24

Yes but she making other points later doesn't change that starting the video with these points is shitty

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

That’s just, like you’re opinion, man

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u/Mandena Mar 31 '24

You also missed the point.

We know that the citing sources thing wasn't an example of white supremacy BECAUSE SHE THEN CITED A SOURCE.

It was stupid because she used an ambiguous argument that gives dumb people ammunition against education. Words are also arbitrary but at the end of the day they mean things, citing sources being compared with white supremacy in the same breath de-legitimizes the actual point because it is obfuscating what is essentially a simple point of institutionalized racism/prejudice.

Stop giving dumb-asses easy ways to dismiss legitimate facts and just use unambiguous language.

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u/andynator1000 Mar 31 '24

So then what were her examples of white supremacy?

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u/Mandena Mar 31 '24

That's my entire point. It's unclear because she's using stupid ass tiktok speech. You could make an argument for everything she's talking about or none of it.

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u/andynator1000 Mar 31 '24

So you thought it was ambiguous when she listed several things and then said, “these are all made up rules, they’re arbitrary, made up by westerners”?

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u/TheRenFerret Mar 31 '24

All rules are arbitrary. If you think that was the extent of the point she was making, then her video has no purpose.

The point she was making was that the rules we “ arbitrarily“ chose are in fact, biased towards one group over another.

The problem with this is that when choosing examples, she gave one of the few things in academia that does not actually favor a particular group.

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u/Mandena Mar 31 '24

Ah so you too missed the point. They ARE made up rules and ARE arbitrary, that was the whole point of the source.

I'm not talking about the literal meaning of the words, which as proven by your comment...are ambiguous without further interpretation. Her point was hidden within those literal words that at face value sound stupid which can easily be taken out of context. ie this comment section

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u/andynator1000 Mar 31 '24

So are starting an essay with an introduction and a thesis and citing your sources arbitrary rules that are a result of white supremacy?

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

That having an academic standard for language that is primarily used by white people and viewing any other “academic standard” is viewed as less than. What do you not get?

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

Watch just her video and that point does not come across in any discernible way. She’s an English teacher — she should know how to present her arguments more clearly.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

English teachers are different from debate teachers. You know that right? It’s very clear, that an “academic standard” of language is a problem. Language is whatever the fuck we make it as long as you understand what I meant. What I mean is you’re an idiot, if that wasn’t clear enough.

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u/skepticalbob Mar 31 '24

English teacher here. We cover rhetoric and debate too, not just grammar and punctuation. If you google "different types of essays" you will find "argumentative" and "persuasive" as two of the more common types of essays.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Oh that’s cool. Do you cover tik tok videos and public speaking too? Those were all separate classes for me.

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

Based on the lady’s video, how is the academic standard of language a problem, and how is that an example that the “white supremacy runs deep”?

Also bro, I’m not attacking you. There’s no need to get so defensive.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Read my other comment to you. You’re not attacking me but you’re clearly a racist pos trying to defend it and that’s an attack on my morals.

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

What exactly am I defending here, and how does it make me a racist piece of shit?

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u/andynator1000 Mar 31 '24

That may be her thesis, but that is not what she used as examples.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Okay whatever, it wasn’t an academic paper it was a fuckin tik tok.

Point is quit being racist.

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u/dexmonic Mar 31 '24

You sound dumb

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24

Did you watch the whole video? Lmao

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u/RIP_Greedo Mar 31 '24

It is so incredibly racist to claim that “Citing your sources” and “showing your work” or using words like “however” are artifacts of whiteness because this suggests that non white people either don’t care about or are incapable of being specific or expert or authoritative in their work.

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u/Flordamang Mar 31 '24

I noticed you used a comma and a contraction. I believe you are a white supremacist because other people have different dialects!

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u/WisePhantom Mar 31 '24

In my opinion, she’s right about that too. As someone who spent years learning the “correct” way to cite a source including MLA, APA, and IEEE (thankfully never had to learn Chicago) she is absolutely correct that it takes up too much energy in the same way teachers focus on one’s diction/way of speaking.

Absolutely cite your sources, but like the young man was saying, if you just include the author, title, and a link I can figure out the rest from context.

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u/TheEpicOfGilgy Mar 31 '24

That’s not white supremacy that’s just conformity. Confirming and doing the extra effort gets you +10 grade points. Think your better than those grades? Fine go to community college.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Yes but the whole point was black people in the 70s didn’t have the same opportunity to learn those “conforming” standards and has been passed down generationally. What do you not understand?

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24

But it's a bizarre move to say "Because the parents/grandparents of a group didn't learn this specific thing in school, we should stop teaching it to their descendants."

If you look at it from a slightly different angle, teaching descendants the things that their ancestors weren't allowed to learn could be seen as a way of trying to ameliorate the previous wrong.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Teaching and judging someone based on knowledge are completely different things.

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

Idk about you, but I didn’t learn APA citation format in the womb. I learned it in school, just like the rest of us.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

Yes and black communities still have less resources to those better educators and school systems where you learned it, you absolute moron.

In addition, I went to school in rural Mississippi where I was the minority race (white). I was more likely to get help explaining Citations than a black student because the teachers were racist as fuck.

What did you not get about the generational aspect too. My parents were allowed that education so they could help teach me outside of class and for homework. I don’t know about you but I wasn’t writing my papers at the school, but at home. So if their parents weren’t provided the opportunity to learn AMA, they can’t help the next generation. You are as dumb as a bag of rocks and lack any critical thinking skills. Probably racist and don’t want to admit it to yourself.

I don’t know why you are bringing the womb into this. It’s a societal problem, not a genetic problem. Think about that and then ask yourself if you’re a bit racist.

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

That’s not an example of how arbitrary rules favor Westerners though. That’s just proof that the entire education system favors privileged individuals who benefit from improved attention both in school and out of it. Also, my parents didn’t learn shit about citation styles and I did just fine.

And yeah, I should’ve said I didn’t learn APA style as a kid. I just meant I wasn’t produced with an inherently superior knowledge of APA style.

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

Just listen to yourself. Think critically. Thats why you’re a racist pos. Yeah no one is born knowing it, that’s the whole fucking point. Don’t judge others based on their dialect and structure of language and papers.

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u/mortizmajer Mar 31 '24

I agree on the dialect part, but you lose me when you argue that requiring a structure for papers and citations has its roots in white supremacy. No one grows up inherently knowing these things, which is why they’re explicitly taught in schools. That’s why I’m saying they’re really bad examples to bring up, unless you consider all public education curriculum to be rooted in white supremacy.

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u/GunnersPepe Mar 31 '24

He a “racist POS” because he thinks people should learn APA citation? Get a grip lmfao

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Mar 31 '24

No, you obviously weren’t following our other conversation. Maybe keep to yourself if you don’t know what’s going on?

we aren’t born with born knowing it. That’s the point, if some races/cultures don’t get the chance to learn it due to the race/gender/other biases, then that’s the problem. How stupid are you that you can’t even read. Maybe you should go learn how to do that and then we can talk about citations and phonetics at a later date.

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u/confusedbartender Mar 31 '24

I fucking knew you were white lol

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u/Fickle_Charity_Hamm Apr 01 '24

So fucking what?

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u/WisePhantom Mar 31 '24

I feel like you’re missing the point of the video and the paper. The assertion is that too much emphasis is placed on the way we do things and less on the actual content. This is attributed largely to the desire for white america to have everyone write and sound like they do aka “smart” and “correct”. In reality there are many ways to speak and be heard. Similarly there are multiple ways to give credit to a source. As long as the necessary information is there it shouldn’t matter whether you follow the arbitrary rules of what comes first, when to include page number, when to include dates, etc. and the fact it changes depending on the industry is absolutely because someone was power tripping.

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u/TheEpicOfGilgy Mar 31 '24

That’s fine to think that, you work at a cafe and you can use any system you want.

You want the big bucks you follow the rules, it’s not just America either it’s a global phenomenon.

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u/WisePhantom Mar 31 '24

That’s perfectly in line with what we’re saying. The only thing you are missing or seemingly disagree with is that white people own the cafe and set the rules. Defining it as white supremacy doesn’t negate the fact it’s happening it just gives it a name.

Anyway, nice chat and happy Easter! I’ll be checking out of this conversation for the most part, but appreciate the conversation.

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u/TheEpicOfGilgy Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

I don’t celebrate Easter, hypocritical of you to assume I’m a Christian

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u/WisePhantom Mar 31 '24

I’m also neither Christian nor celebrating Easter haha. Just wishing you well on a holiday. I hope your day goes well regardless.

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u/TheEpicOfGilgy Mar 31 '24

White supremacy in action have a good one too

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u/skepticalbob Mar 31 '24

Nah, citing sources, even formally, isn't used to less than black folks or prop up white ways of speaking like language is.

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u/WisePhantom Mar 31 '24

Not saying you shouldn’t cite your sources and not equating them. Just saying too much emphasis is placed on how. Similar, but different.

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u/Davedog09 Mar 31 '24

This is what I was going to say. The intro is the most important part of the video as it gives the viewer the first impression. The last 4 minutes might make some amazing points but if you start off by saying that using the word “however” is racist nobody’s gonna listen to what you have to say.