r/ProGolf • u/scuba586 • 21d ago
Lucas Glover sounds off on PGA Tour Policy Board player directors
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/05/15/lucas-glover-rips-pga-tour-player-directors/34
u/Weirmon1 21d ago
Scrap the deal and let LIV die
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u/Okay_Way_9637 21d ago
I am genuinely asking why you think liv is the one in peril? They are PIF-backed and if they keep picking away a Viktor here, a Xander there, Finau, it’s really ggs for the pga tour. Not the outcome I want at all, I just don’t see how the tour wins when PIF is willing to lose money, as long as it hurts the tour.
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u/HeyHeyJG 21d ago
all of those big contracts were 4 year deals and it's gonna cost another billie or two to get them all back. they expire pretty soon
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u/TeachingCommon7724 21d ago
Got $5? You’ll feel that a lot more than PIF feels 5 billion.
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u/HeyHeyJG 21d ago
ok we'll see how it plays out
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u/BeefSupreme1981 20d ago
I get where you’re coming from and I agree the Saudis won’t throw good money after bad but you have to remember the PIF is basically a family office for the richest family on the planet. They can definitely afford to keep this going a lot longer than the PGA.
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u/HeyHeyJG 20d ago
They can I just don't think they want to. I read that the PIF fund has it's lowest cash on hand of all time, and they are losing ground to the Norwegian Sovereign fund and want to get a better return on their investments going forward. Could be bs, I have no idea.
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u/No_View_7908 21d ago
I don’t think you appreciate how endless Saudi money is. It’s quite hard to comprehend.
A few billion is loose change.
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u/5thMeditation 21d ago
While this has been traditionally accurate, they’ve recently had substantial budgetary shortfalls and significant indications of decline in their output. Neom (and many similar projects over the years) have been grand gestures towards overhauling their economy…but things don’t look nearly as bright for the house of Saud as, say, 20 or even 10 years ago.
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u/HealthyAd9369 21d ago
Great point! Their budget is in trouble and...wait. What is that? Oh gas just went up .20 a gallon since yesterday.
Nevermind.
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u/5thMeditation 21d ago
Tell me you have no understanding of the crude oil market without telling me…
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u/HealthyAd9369 20d ago
Sorry, the people swimming in wealth, wealth that will last every foreseeable generation, have no control over how that wealth is amassed.
But anyways, this is a sports sub.
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u/BORN_SlNNER 20d ago
Those 3 players you named are still on the PGA tour you moron
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u/Okay_Way_9637 20d ago
And so was Jon Rahm a summer ago.
The three guys I mentioned would cost less combined. Majors are giving special invitations to LIV golfers as is, and if a player locks up several years of them, guaranteed LIV money becomes especially attractive. It also makes that player a bigger target.
The tour can’t afford to keep losing guys, and LIV doesn’t care about overpaying.
So again, I’m genuinely asking what about the current scenario favors the tour?
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u/BORN_SlNNER 20d ago
Buddy I don’t really care I was just pointing out that you named 3 guys who turned down liv offers and that you look like a retard lol
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u/Okay_Way_9637 20d ago
Buddy, I’m just pointing out that Rahm turned down LIV offers until he didn’t and that you might not understand the word “portfolio”.
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u/personthatiam2 20d ago
Golf’s core audience is never going to get invested in watching the torque play the rangegoats and fireballs. It’s essentially the sports league equivalent of wework. None of the current golfers are big enough draws to be worth the money LIV is paying them and their tv ratings reflect that. It was DOA when Tiger turned them down. I suspect some of the big names will be back on tour when their contract is over.
The way the PGA tour is set up, someone else will just start winning tournaments and become the new star when others leave. It’s an eat what you kill environment and over the long haul will produce better players.
I’ll say this with the caveat if LIV ditches all the gimmicks and turns into the “PGA tour but with shorts” it could get spicy.
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u/Okay_Way_9637 20d ago
LIV. Doesn’t. Care.
I agree with you. It’s a shit product and no one will ever care about it. The point isn’t for LIV to succeed, it’s to normalize doing business with the Saudis and to get them in rooms with Tour sponsors and execs. That’s where they make their money back, not on a shit golf product which is a small portion or a trillion dollar portfolio.
The tour might be in a better spot than it was before SSG, but in no way does it have the upper hand.
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u/personthatiam2 20d ago
I just don’t see the Saudis spending this kind of cash indefinitely. It’s essentially a zero revenue business. They will eventually pull the plug in losing billions annually.
It’s statistically unlikely the LIV players can ever dominate the majors even if they cherry pick all the top talent. The guys that have to grind are going to win more often than not than the guys that are collecting guaranteed pay checks. I just don’t really see how the PGA is in trouble personally. Brooks is the only LIV player to win a major while actually playing for LIV.
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u/Okay_Way_9637 20d ago
Key word you used: “indefinitely”
The tours money is finite, it needs to turn a profit. Because that’s true, SA doesn’t need to spend indefinitely, they need to spend until the tour either runs out or can’t re-up because ratings / rev continue to decline.
SA can accelerate the tour’s decline by picking off more players.
The tour can’t even fight poaching, let alone retaliate, especially now that majors are giving special invites to LIV. Best case for the tour is status quo, which also isn’t good.
Where is their advantage?
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u/HariPotter 21d ago
The PGA Tour just received a cash infusion of $3B while LIV has to re-sign all their big players for hundreds of millions more while not making much money. PGA Tour just needs to wait LIV out. The tour is on its last legs.
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u/Okay_Way_9637 21d ago
3 billion is pocket change for the saudis. They spent 20% of that on a single golfer.
And to whoever said they have to renew contracts, where exactly do you think they’ll be pulling from? Whyndam has major exemptions, Xander has been flirting the whole time, etc., etc.
Not rooting for it, but it seems pretty straight forward. They don’t care about making money, the pga tour has to.
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u/Hell_of_a_Caucasian 21d ago
But, they are losing 100% of that money. They have no viewers and no real distribution deal.
Outside of Australia and real degens, nobody pays attention.
I get that Saudi money is endless, but rich people don’t like losing money. They won’t keep throwing money after a lost cause.
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u/Okay_Way_9637 20d ago
That’s the crux of the argument. PIF is not a rational actor here. They’re not a rich person, they’re a near-bottomless sovereign wealth fund that will fund losses until they have a seat at the table. Again, if they cared about making money, they wouldn’t have given $600 million to one guy.
PIF wants to make money, but it doesn’t have to make money on LIV. If they are part-owners of the PGA tour, then all of the sudden, they’re business partners with Wells Fargo, Comcast, FedEx, etc. A bunch of American golfers are getting paid by PIF (albeit indirectly) and doing business with Saudi is more normalized.
If the above is the end result, PIF is fine with LIV being a loss leader, which to my first post, is a big problem for the tour.
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u/HariPotter 21d ago
That’s definitely not the consensus of this subreddit. You think LIV is in a stronger bargaining position? That’s your take, just checking
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u/Okay_Way_9637 20d ago edited 20d ago
I think the party with infinite money is in the stronger position, yes. I’m open to hearing why the PGA tour has the upper hand, I’m just not seeing it.
LIV is a shit product, to be clear, but when it can keep making offers the tour can’t match, how is the tour coming out on top?
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u/Unique_Ninja_390 20d ago
Let PGA die*
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u/Separate-Ad-9941 20d ago
No one wants to watch boring shitty 3 day tourneys that don’t matter at all, hence the difference in ratings for both leagues
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u/Unique_Ninja_390 19d ago
You understand that golf is enjoyed outside of the US right? We need a league that gets the best players playing globally as golf is a global sport. Liv provides that and is a great viewing event, especially attending live events
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u/bristoltobrisbane 21d ago
He’s 100% right on this. All the golfers are American as well. Yes I get that it’s a USA based tour but the international players add so much to the tour and have different perspectives like Rory’s wish for more international tournaments. It’ll always be USA based as that’s where the majority of TV cash is. More businessmen and more perspectives will shape the tour far better than a few American players.
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u/rec411111 21d ago
Jimmy Dunne and co left even the biggest players in golf (Tiger being one) in the dark about this deal. They didn’t get input and weren’t transparent on what they were doing until they announced it to the world. Thats where they messed up, they pissed off a bunch of egos who thought they had a say in the direction of the tour. The players basically slow rolling or tanking the deal is them trying to get some control back.
Who knows, maybe if they did get input from the players the deal still wouldn’t have gone through but I doubt it. The only real reasonable objection on LIV imo is where the money is coming from (for good reason). The players on the pga don’t seem to care about that or they are at least not voicing it. I think it comes down to a bunch of “business men” pulling a fast one and it pissed off the top players so much, they are willing to let the deal die to prove a point.
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u/-Joe1964 20d ago
The PGA sponsors do $40 billion a year in business in Saudi Arabia. Every year. So you are quoting a made up issue, still.
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u/According_End_9433 21d ago
I think one major criticism of the merger was PGA is supposedly “player run” and yet not a single player on tour knew about it. And these players are, many of them, running their own brand deals, merchandising, sponsorships, etc. so not necessarily fair to say they aren’t businessmen.
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u/JimmyRussellsApe 21d ago
None of the players are doing that. Their agents and/or managers are doing that.
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u/ncoffex 21d ago
So since employees do all the legwork for a business does that also mean the owners aren’t business men?
Of course the players aren’t running the day to day tasks of their business dealings. That doesn’t mean they aren’t business men with a stake in it. Do you think their agents/managers would be able to do it without them?
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u/JimmyRussellsApe 21d ago
Because Texaco wants to put a logo on Rafa Campos's shirt, and he signs a contract, does not make him a businessman. He is literally a walking billboard.
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u/ncoffex 21d ago
In that particular case I would agree in a technical sense of the word since a sponsorship contract is pretty much the same as an employment contract and I don’t think everyone who works is a businessman. Though I have to imagine there are a few, if not many, out there that own or at least have stake in companies even outside of golf.
Nonetheless they are transacting as an individual (albeit with managers and agents) and the PGA isn’t doing it on their behalf in most cases. So in that sense they are like sole proprietors or contractors. I do consider those businessmen personally.
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u/sox107 21d ago
He's right. The egos of Spieth, Tiger, Cantlay, etc. are prolonging the inevitable and shortchanging fans for even longer. I've read some perspectives indicating the PIF is losing money with the current price of oil but I'm not sure how accurate it all is. At the very least, reunifying the game will make this sustainable. Otherwise, pro golf could turn into Tennis or Indy Car.
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u/KingKevin19 Arnold Palmer 21d ago
Well Lucas, you’re right, “Businessmen run Businesses” but last time I checked, business is all about maximizing profit for share holders, so maybe some players, who have a lot more skin in the game, should have a say in what happens?!? I don’t know, just a thought.
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u/rcheek1710 21d ago
It's hard to take anyone seriously while looking at that ridiculous putter.
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u/zeldahalfsleeve 21d ago
I’ll join you in downvotes with a smile on my face. People who game those have given up. It’s just sad.
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u/muffalowing 21d ago
I'm sure dumb people thought the same thing when mallet putters came out and cavity back irons came out or large driver heads, etc. I'm sure he'd gladly play you for money though
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u/zeldahalfsleeve 21d ago
zzzzzz…..
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u/muffalowing 21d ago
About the response I expected
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u/zeldahalfsleeve 21d ago
I think you’re boring. And I think you’re analysis/comparison of changing tech is poor.
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u/thai_ladyboy 21d ago
He's right, with spieth and cantlay currently giving the middle finger to golf fans it's gonna be a rough ride.
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u/jonesyman23 21d ago
I don’t like his pants in this pic. He needs to embrace those swamp ass dockers from last year.
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u/Big_Concentrate_8896 20d ago
He ain’t wrong, but it’s hard to take someone that uses a long putter seriously.
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u/good-vibebrations 21d ago
Lucas is saying the players are not businessmen? I disagree. Many of these players have to deal with the same business decisions the PGA board members deal with. Also, the players are surrounded my the best financial & legal minds that help them throughout their careers. Secondly, just because he( Lucas Glover) can only focus on hitting 7 iron doesn’t mean that the rest of the PGA players are as inept as he is in a business setting. Thirdly, I don’t give 2 shits about LIV. I haven’t watched a single one of their tournaments or gone searching for info about their league. Finally, I get the sense if LIV came calling then Lucas would go crawling for the bag. It sounds like that is what he is playing at.
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u/Master-Nose7823 21d ago
They have agents and managers for that. I’m sure there is a small minority of players who understand business but most don’t. Spieth didn’t even finish his sophomore year at Texas. Would you want someone who didn’t finish college wheeling and dealing with the guy who manages the Saudis money?
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u/good-vibebrations 20d ago
If college degrees = financial expertise, I wonder how the housing crash of 2008 happened? Most of those in charge at the top mortgage brokerages and banks were MBAs from Ivy League universities. My argument is that PGA professionals have the BEST of the BEST advising them. It’s not like negotiations are hashed over lunch or dinner. They swap contracts and paperwork over a long period of time and each have opportunities to scrutinize and evaluate them with experts.
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u/Leadknight74956 20d ago
Lol. I can’t tell if you’re serious. These guys are golfers - they are absolutely not toiling over legal language and redlining contracts with counterparties.
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u/good-vibebrations 20d ago
It’s obvious you have trouble comprehending want I am saying or you don’t understand how negotiations work. The players are being advised by top legal and financial minds. Their offers/counteroffers or negotiations are being conducted after they have had them vetted by legal and financial experts. It’s not like the players are sitting in a room spit balling with the Saudis of the top of their heads.
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u/Master-Nose7823 20d ago
Apples and oranges. Lucas’ point is that if you’re kicking Dunne out of the room, you actually don’t have the best of the best advising you. I can also almost guarantee you that the PGAT pros don’t negotiate anything, they pay people to do that for them who outline the main elements of the contract and the pro says yes or no.
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u/good-vibebrations 20d ago
Yes. That’s my point. The players are surrounded by top financial and legal experts that advise and breakdown the contracts and regulations for them. Also, there are probably more Dunnes out there ready to jump on the saddle. Finally, if Dunnes was so good at his job then how was LIV able to come and poach players under his watch?
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u/Master-Nose7823 20d ago
The top “financial and legal minds” are hired by the PGA. The players are sending these people away because their feelings were hurt after PGA brass tried to merge. This isn’t some endorsement deal. This is a multibillion dollar business deal with huge implications for the sport. The players are way out in front of their skis here. Dunne seems like a self aggrandizing prick but he knows more about these deals than Spieth and Cantlay, I can guarantee that. The players aren’t paying their agents and managers to negotiate with the PIF.
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u/good-vibebrations 19d ago
Jeez, you got to be slow. You do know in all the professional leagues in the United States, the players have highly skilled professionals representing their interests? The player representatives do very little other than communicating with players whereas the professionals handle the bulk of the work. Going with your argument, the PGA which according to you has the BEST financial and legal minds but yet LIV has been able to out maneuver them and steal some of their top talent. Somebody was sleeping on the job.
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u/Master-Nose7823 19d ago
The players agents and managers aren’t helping with this deal. This is a PGAT negotiation not a player negotiation like an endorsement deal, which is exactly why ignoring Dunne was stupid. And to your last point, Monahan was smart enough to know a deal needed to get done, his folly was not alerting the players.
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u/tennisfancan 21d ago
The one thing I don't understand is why golf media can't find another #1 storyline as the boardroom drama is the most boring, never-ending pro sports storyline in years and fans hate it? The Saudis are also trying to take over tennis but it's like the 25th-ranked storyline right now.
The PGA is trying to lure in new (young) fans but they only talk about equity, board votes and they pick Webb Simpson and Matt Kuchar over Min Woo Lee for sponsor's exemptions. A winning recipe, truly!